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Elo will not fix gear mismatched PvP matches as it currently exists.
blureel
Member Posts: 163 Arc User
Team tactics are supposed to win in PvP. Great matches that I've played in have been about team tactics. I believe in it, promote it, and support it.
But, the majority of "mismatches" that I've played in whether on the winning side or the losing side has been about gear mismatching. No amount of tactics made a difference.
This is not to be confused with the common misconception and misnomer that gear score makes or breaks a PvP match. Gear score by itself generally does NOT indicate an decisive win or loss because points in the "wrong" stats can make a player "less" than a lower gear score player with all the points in the right stats. This also assumes that both players have the same skill and tactical knowledge to play PvP. Gear score is a whole another discussion and not what I'm addressing here.
So what do I mean by gear mismatching.
First I'm talking about the extremes here.
How many of you remember your first few Level 60 PvP match with only blue gear on? and you came across that OP premade with their perfects and their rank 10s. Wasn't pretty was it?
Now, how many of you have been on PUG teams where one of your team mates only has blue armor gear on? No purple T1 or T2 gear. How about 2 of your team mates with only blue armor gear?
Or, how about one of your team mate's armor enchantment slot is empty or worse, their weapon enchantment slot is empty? How about both empty? How about 1 or 2 more your team mates in like condition?
This is actually ok if you played against a team that's similarly geared up and to some degree better.
It's not ok when you play against that OP premade or a PUG that has 1 or 2 OP players. How do you know when you're in such a gear mismatched game? when you can't cap a base or it takes all 5 of your team to kill one of the opposing team players.
It is these types of ugly mismatches that caused everyone to start leaving PvP matches early in the first place. It's not enjoyable and it's not fun to be in such a match, win or lose. Frustrating on the losing side and boring on the winning side.
After playing and keeping track of how my many different PUG teams played and their gear since Elo started, I can say that yes there are a few more enjoyable matches than before Elo began. However, I can also say that the amount of extremely mismatched games still happen just as often as before Elo began. And they feel just as random as before. One day can be all fun and enjoyable matches and the next day it can be 7 straight highly mismatched games.
Since Elo is about wins and losses and not about gear matching, there is no way for these types of matches to be eliminated.
My suggestion
I'm making a point about the extreme range of gear mismatching at Level 60 because if you think it's bad in a 5 man PvP match where you do have 4 other team mates to help play some strategy and tactics, just wait until you get into open world PvP. Oh wait, there's a new minimum "level" requirement coming for open world PvP which means the developers know and understand gear mismatching extremes and they came up with a solution for open world PvP.
So my question is, why can't they split up Level 60 PvP using that same or similar criteria? Just make separate queues for the different levels. Do a low level to mid level queue and a mid level to high level queue. And keep the existing queue as the "open" level because yes we know that there may not be enough high level players on at a given time to keep the queues full and fast. Or for that matter, low level players. And it does give players the opportunity to test out a new build, new gear, new enchants, etc. against higher level players.
And not to get too far off track here, but I believe that much of the talks about the different classes being to OP and powers that need to get nerfed would go away if something like this could be implemented. Mainly because the tactics and strategies of a blue armor player is different from the tactics and strategies of a fully geared up player especially when playing against similarly equipped teams. The value of the "OP" powers would be easier to see and understand in "high level" matches. Of course, they could still be mismatched at the "high level", but at least you can focus on the high level player complaints.
Yes, I know there's a lot more involved to make such a system work, but I'm just making an observation and a suggestion.
Just to be clear, my characters are not OP, nor are they low level. I'm a decent pvp player in that I know what it takes to win a match, but I can't win it by myself.
I have also been fortunate to have played with an elite PvP guild on many occasions. That is why I know what OP geared players have and the tactics they use. I also know that they can be beat with tactics. And I know when an opposing team "gives up" and stops trying even before they start leaving or AFKing. And yes, for good measure, I have played against them many times.
Looking for feedback
So what I would like to know is how many other players are having the same or similar results that I'm having.
And then, is my analysis accurate. why or why not? I am always looking for new ways to win
And lastly, what do you all think of my suggestion? Don't worry, I'm not going to cry if people don't like it. It's not like PvP is going to get worse if they don't lol.
But, the majority of "mismatches" that I've played in whether on the winning side or the losing side has been about gear mismatching. No amount of tactics made a difference.
This is not to be confused with the common misconception and misnomer that gear score makes or breaks a PvP match. Gear score by itself generally does NOT indicate an decisive win or loss because points in the "wrong" stats can make a player "less" than a lower gear score player with all the points in the right stats. This also assumes that both players have the same skill and tactical knowledge to play PvP. Gear score is a whole another discussion and not what I'm addressing here.
So what do I mean by gear mismatching.
First I'm talking about the extremes here.
How many of you remember your first few Level 60 PvP match with only blue gear on? and you came across that OP premade with their perfects and their rank 10s. Wasn't pretty was it?
Now, how many of you have been on PUG teams where one of your team mates only has blue armor gear on? No purple T1 or T2 gear. How about 2 of your team mates with only blue armor gear?
Or, how about one of your team mate's armor enchantment slot is empty or worse, their weapon enchantment slot is empty? How about both empty? How about 1 or 2 more your team mates in like condition?
This is actually ok if you played against a team that's similarly geared up and to some degree better.
It's not ok when you play against that OP premade or a PUG that has 1 or 2 OP players. How do you know when you're in such a gear mismatched game? when you can't cap a base or it takes all 5 of your team to kill one of the opposing team players.
It is these types of ugly mismatches that caused everyone to start leaving PvP matches early in the first place. It's not enjoyable and it's not fun to be in such a match, win or lose. Frustrating on the losing side and boring on the winning side.
After playing and keeping track of how my many different PUG teams played and their gear since Elo started, I can say that yes there are a few more enjoyable matches than before Elo began. However, I can also say that the amount of extremely mismatched games still happen just as often as before Elo began. And they feel just as random as before. One day can be all fun and enjoyable matches and the next day it can be 7 straight highly mismatched games.
Since Elo is about wins and losses and not about gear matching, there is no way for these types of matches to be eliminated.
My suggestion
I'm making a point about the extreme range of gear mismatching at Level 60 because if you think it's bad in a 5 man PvP match where you do have 4 other team mates to help play some strategy and tactics, just wait until you get into open world PvP. Oh wait, there's a new minimum "level" requirement coming for open world PvP which means the developers know and understand gear mismatching extremes and they came up with a solution for open world PvP.
So my question is, why can't they split up Level 60 PvP using that same or similar criteria? Just make separate queues for the different levels. Do a low level to mid level queue and a mid level to high level queue. And keep the existing queue as the "open" level because yes we know that there may not be enough high level players on at a given time to keep the queues full and fast. Or for that matter, low level players. And it does give players the opportunity to test out a new build, new gear, new enchants, etc. against higher level players.
And not to get too far off track here, but I believe that much of the talks about the different classes being to OP and powers that need to get nerfed would go away if something like this could be implemented. Mainly because the tactics and strategies of a blue armor player is different from the tactics and strategies of a fully geared up player especially when playing against similarly equipped teams. The value of the "OP" powers would be easier to see and understand in "high level" matches. Of course, they could still be mismatched at the "high level", but at least you can focus on the high level player complaints.
Yes, I know there's a lot more involved to make such a system work, but I'm just making an observation and a suggestion.
Just to be clear, my characters are not OP, nor are they low level. I'm a decent pvp player in that I know what it takes to win a match, but I can't win it by myself.
I have also been fortunate to have played with an elite PvP guild on many occasions. That is why I know what OP geared players have and the tactics they use. I also know that they can be beat with tactics. And I know when an opposing team "gives up" and stops trying even before they start leaving or AFKing. And yes, for good measure, I have played against them many times.
Looking for feedback
So what I would like to know is how many other players are having the same or similar results that I'm having.
And then, is my analysis accurate. why or why not? I am always looking for new ways to win
And lastly, what do you all think of my suggestion? Don't worry, I'm not going to cry if people don't like it. It's not like PvP is going to get worse if they don't lol.
Post edited by blureel on
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On the other hand I understand that people who invested alot into their toons should get something in return.
So I would like to have the option to join either some 'open' PvP system with no rating whatsoever and some more 'professional' PvP match were every enchant (weapons/armor/runeslots) are disabled - to keep things simple (and to prevent the abuse of changing your gear).
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
Not sure this will ever get 'fixed' TBH.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
Also, enchants were way, way more easy to get, and nobody could pay their way into godhood, and there were no godmode classes either, but that's almost another topic.
Here almost all things are wrong for a healthy PvP environment, since it is very hard to get the same gear as others who pay for it and get it in a split second, their only disadvantage being the chance they are bad players. However, most people buying maxed gear will also play the game a lot and practice, cause you know, you won't invest 1000 USD in a game if you don't wanna play it.
All in all, I wouldn't expect improvements. It's how this game works.
Aww common, the sets are but a start lol. You know very well what I'm talking about. It's the Rank 10s, the perfects, it will soon be companions and zen items to increase your black ice productivity.
Profound gear as it is now, it's great - because you can get it by purely playing PvP.
But after that what? Play in it with empty sockets? OK...
It's a F2P game. It's not fair and you're not entitled to anything. Some people want to buy the items, others (like me) work the F2P system to their advantage.
As 100% F2P player, I can assure you those items are not hard to get, they just take time. Personally, I'm not evening bothering with Rank 10s because they're such an AD sink for such little bonus. I'd rather have three characters with Rank 9s.
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
I still feel that matches are more balanced overall than before.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
In a game like SC2 that is 100% PvP, there are leagues (from bronze to GrandMaster) and the queue system will try and find you an opponent of the same league. But sometimes even in SC2 when not that many people are connected, the system has to extend its search to opponents from a different league.
Here in NW, The pvp-ers are not the whole population of the players, they're only a percentage. Pvp-ers of the same level as yours are a percentage of a percentage. Creating different leagues will sure help the casual pvp-ers by keeping at range the seasoned pvp-ers.
But the seasoned pvp-er? It will be hours of waiting in queue, until the one other super-pvp-er of his level wakes up and logins.
The casual pvp-ers who mainly play the game for its PvE are by far the more numerous. But the core of five or ten pvp-dedicated players are the ones who actually do the pvp in the game, finding builds, elaborating tactics, not just running around like headless chickens.
I'm curious as to how many games did you play before you started noticing the "difference" in game play? I've been averaging 7-8 matches a day since the launch of Elo.
I noticed an immediate change in game play because of the leaver penalty. Matches were much longer because "everyone" stayed to play which "forced" many of them to start playing more tactics to win. As you pointed out, the requests have shifted to time limits in matches. But, I'm attributing most of the improved enjoyable matches that I've played primarily to the implementation of the leaver penalty. What do you think?
The experiences of mismatching that I talked about in my original post are happening regularly since the launch of Elo. I have not seen any pattern of increasing or decreasing number of matches in this category.
This may be because I play at random times throughout the day so I face the daytime crowd, the evening crowd and the late night crowd each with the their own mix of players (and differing levels). This would lend credence to your statement when there's not enough people on as to why I'm getting these types of matches on a "regular" basis.
My intent is to find out if there are more players that are experiencing the same thing or if I'm a really tiny minority in this experience.
In either case, I still don't like extremely mismatched games
however, team composition is becoming a greater issue. i am frequently running into groups that are "seemingly" pugs with 2 gwf + 2 perma on a regular basis. having a mostly ranged group against that specific group is pretty much a loss from the start unless they play horribly enough to let us win.
i think they need to give wizards/hunters a cc and/or an attack that goes through immunity. i was actually fine with roots going through ITC since all I had to do was slot deft strike to break free on-top of wearing elven battle. I would also be fine with knockbacks being the same as I don't consider these an actual threat but delay tactics. the main reason melees have immunity is because we needed protection from stuns and a form of damage mitigation. none of us actually need protection from roots/knockbacks.
this doesn't mean that gear isn't an issue. ever run into a gwf that requires your entire team to kill or else everyone dies. even simply ignoring him barely helped as he pretty much did whatever he wanted the entire match. if he went to a node, u have to let him keep it because nobody was capable of killing him. that entire match, i think we only killed him once and even that only happened because his entire team was elsewhere.
Gear.
If you want to see interesting matches, then the gear MUST be very close together. It is like in the boxing sport:
There have to be several weight classes. People can be very strong in their weight class, but if they change into a stronger, than they will always lose. Not because they have no skill, but they lack in 'gear'.
It just doesnt make sense to put people in the same group or against each other just because of their win/loss ratio. The point is you have to put them in the same group in accordance with their gear.
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
They're not... most of the times at least. That's the issue. I played well over 200 matches since ELO. Maybe even more. I have probably 80-90% win rate. If I pug alone, I get people with 50% mount and no enchants in my team. Yeah they MIGHT be PvP pros, but what do you know, they aren't. If I play with friends, which I usually end up doing, we end up against badly geared pugs 7/10 matches, and all of us have at least greaters and r8s and pretty good ELO. The matches are so bad, many times the pugs won't even leave their spawn.
So I cannot help but wonder, how much more until we "eventually" get better matches? 500 matches? 1000?
Sorry, but at this point I think it's purely a population issue. There are just not enough people PvPing to assure a consistent ELO system as I enjoyed in WoW for example. And the matchmaking ends up dealing with whatever is available, and it's not enjoyable for either part.
If you have played 200 matches than your ELO should be pretty static by now but if you take another player that only has played say 5-10 matches than his could be wildly in flux. Depending on who they got teamed with in their first few matches they could have a wildly inflated ELO compared to their actual skill as the ELO rating for the win is based on team rating and not individual rating.
Furthermore all of the "gear" and "number of match" arguments are looking at things from the wrong angle.
Elo measures your chance to win. Period. Gear effects your chance to win but it does not dictate it. As I pointed out when Blureel said a match which was only 15 points difference was not balanced, that is the definition of balance in Elo system. It doesn't matter one bit what the gear scores of the teams are because the match was close. Good gear does not mean you put it to good use and that is why such a system is not implemented over the Elo System.
"How many matches" do you have to win is just taken completely out of context from existing Elo systems.
The 30 match rule of thumb only applies to existing stable systems. Neverwinter has a new system and is not stable. Players are vibrating in Elo ratings in a way that would not happen in a stable situation.
The cure is time. That is it. Time. Period.
So take this time to comprehend that it absolutely can not be worse than 100% random and calm down about this and give it time to stabilize. It could very well take months but the cure is time.
off? or scaled down? we know the devs do have tools to scale down the queue limits/requirements and have been watching queue times ever since the elo system was implemented.
If not for the forum rule against PvP videos, I'd post some so people can see how bad it is when you pug. What am I supposed to do with 7-10K GS people without enchants? When I'm pitted against 2 GWFs with perfect vorpal, 2 TRs and 1 HR, pretty much all party with perfects? And I have a r7/greater clueless TR, 2 20K HP HRs without enchants and a GWF that decided to afk of sorts after being murdered 0:9? (this was last match I played in).
I'm calm BTW.
I'm just saying that I'd wish I would be allowed to post as proof of how much imbalance pugging means, and that ELO, non-ELO, if you solo pug, you gonna have a very bad experience 9/10.
ELO had enough time to be able to put together people of relatively similar skill.
Also, gear is important. You cannot throw in people without armor/wep enchants against people with perfects. It's dumb.
There's also the question of ELO going down from such stupid losses. So I built up a nice W/L ratio, all good, and then it just goes down cause I get put in impossible matches with pugs that cannot help? Not Ok... people should be able to pug relatively safely, and end up in decent games.
Especially with people deciding that they are just going to AFK or Leave if the match isn't balanced even if they will win. There are so many stupid actions posted on these threads which make the situations worse instead of better.
Honestly it won't get better until you all decide to relax and just play rather than complaining things are not balanced and making wacky assumptions and false accusations.
My current experience is that still happens just as often to me now as it did before Elo started. My goal is to find out if in fact other players are having the same experience.
And yes, I absolutely understand any skill level matching system takes time to "balance" out because it needs time to collect stats from all the players. That is not what's in question here.
As the title that I chose states, I don't think Elo is going to eliminate this type of extreme mismatch ever because that's not what's designed to do with all the other factors involved including the number of available players on at a specific queue time.
I'm not looking for speculation even though that's what seems to be the primary response has been to this post. I agree with the moderator that everyone does need to chill out and give the the system time build the database of stats.
What I was hoping to generate was a useful discussion on what people's gameplay experiences were as compared to mine that I posted and to hopefully get people to pay attention to it if they hadn't thought about it.
I already posted that the new system was indeed improved by the addition of the leaver penalty. But as some of posts have pointed out, "new" poor sportsmanship tactics have come to the forefront which I also highly disagree with.
I also hoped that this thread would generate discussion on what the root of many of the poor sportsmanship conduct comes from.
In my opinion, it comes from this extreme mismatch in gear. Maybe it would help if I redefine it this way. Level 60 gear is so broad of a range that it's comparable to combining the level 40 matches and the level 50 matches into one category.
My gear mismatching contention is about little, minor, or even large differences in gear match ups. It's about extreme mismatches.
Elo is about wins and losses and not about gear score or even gear match ups. I know that. I get that. I'm not saying that needs to change.
I'm saying that no amount of Elo is going to remove that condition of extreme mismatches. This is fine if it happens once in while.
But like I said, I've been averaging 7-8 matches a day since Elo has come out. And this week I'm still running into matches with this kind of extreme. I'm not saying this happens all the time. I'm not saying I have to win all the time in order for the game to "feel balanced".
I'm saying when I go through 5 straight matches with scores of 1000 to 67, 98 to 1000, 37 to 1000, 1000 to 153, 212 to 1000, Elo is working in regards to wins and losses.
I'm saying that original problem with PvP that caused the leaver problem to escalate is this extreme range of gear mismatching. The "easy" way out for players when faced with opponents that "appeared" to be extremely overmatched to them was to leave. That's why the problem grew. Anything that remotely looked like or felt like an overmatch was a reason to leave. This idea started from somewhere in fact. That fact I defined in my opening topic, remember playing against a well built premade with only a blue armor?
I'm saying that original problem still exists in the new PvP and the Elo is not designed to deal with it. It's designed to balance out wins and losses. You will always have matches that you can win in, and conversely you will always have matches that you will lose in.
Players learning about good tactics and practicing to use them will determine how those matches will play out. Players learning about how to build their characters with the "right" set of powers, feats, and abilities and coupled with the "right" set of enchantments will also determine how those matches will play out including the extreme mismatch example that I keep pointing out.
So once again, this is not a gear score discussion because I have a TR and GWF. My TR will never have the same gear score as my GWF. It will always be less than the similarly geared up (enchantments) GWF because that's the way the game was designed and I'm fine with it because I learned how to play both characters to the best of my current gear's ability and my classes powers and feats.
So yes, please stop talking about gear score mismatching. That is not what my discussion is about.
TLDR /: just chill man. It will adjust OVER time. Instead of posting about how upset you are, Go play more matches. It will get better the more you play. Who knows, maybe I'll fight you with my R10s and Perfects! Wouldn't that be fun?!
It is about wins and losses in relation to ratings.
Two people can have the exact same number of wins and losses and have very different Elo Ratings. That is because your rating only changes based on the rating of each team. If you lose to much higher ranked players you will lose rating but only a small amount. Alternatively if you lose to much lower ranked players you will lose a lot of points.
Please look up how the Elo Rating System works. It is not a fixed win/loss system.
Yes leavers are a problem but it is self induced. Leaving makes the issue worse and extends the time in which the ratings will remain unstable. Honestly...they cause that problem. Not Cryptic. They do. The sooner the immature leaving stops the sooner the system will work correctly.
EDIT: I admit that in the game they tweaked this system for the sake of shorter queue times.
EDIT2: IMO the only solution of the problem is to have an option to play PvP matches in which all enchants (weapons/armor/slots) on the gear are turned off. Then there should be no problem if there are 'too few' people queueing. All have similar gear (blue isnt alot different than epic and epics are easy to get)
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
Actually, I agree with you. This is the first educational post that I've seen so far which in itself is kind of disappointing (not against you). I think I'm giving up on discussing issues on the forums lol.
You pointed out my lack of information regarding the Elo Rating system. It's not just a problem in my post though. It's a problem with the majority of the posts I've seen regarding the Elo system. Most people are not educated on what the Elo system is about and how it works. So instead of sending people off on their own to learn about the Elo system, can someone make a stickie about the Elo system explaining what it is and how it works so we can reason to stop most of these unnecessary misinformation posts about the Elo system.
My question about your leaver solution is that do you think that will ever happen? Immature leaving actually stopping? Or the broader question, how can you encourage good sportsmanship? especially without developer help.
Please... i am not 'crying' ok? Lets assume for simplicity you dont purchase new gear and you dont improve or degenerate in skill. If you play many matches, you will then (by the ELO) end up in a margin where you will have 50% chance to win a match.
Now the point is that the percentage of how skill, gear and your class contribute to your overal performance will vary from player to player. Some may have horrible skill but very good gear for example, some have exceptional skill but poor gear. Even if they differ, their overal performance can be the same. So they will be matched against each other even at an infinite repetition of matches. And this is the situation some people like me dont want, because it will result in a 50% chance to win a match at infinity in which you may loose or win because of gear differences.
In the situation in which you have fixed gear margins (lets assume all have the same gear and class for simplicity), then your win ration will depend on your skill only (as the number of matches tend to infinity). This is the option we'd like to see.
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
Why not listen to the PVP community for once by making a solo Q, a more than 1 person in a group Q, and a full premade Q? for one it would be easier to implement than ELO, and it would sure as **** work better .
i actually think it will never work if it requires thousands of matches as newer players will just screw up that balance entirely. i know i have done over a hundred matches on both my rogue and cleric and it's just silly how imbalanced some matches are.
my last match involved my non-perma rogue simply stomping over everyone as all 9 other players could not compare to my 13k rogue. 24 kills and i don't think a single other person had 10 kills (i should of saved the pic). in fact, i carried my whole team and still lost despite frequently killing 2-3 people by myself. i even won a 1 vs 2 while starting with 20% of my hp.........it simply isn't fair to everyone else when i get matched against them. near the end, i checked and there was 1 8k, 2 10-12k, and 1 15k on my team i think but they were nowhere near on par with me.
sad part is that my biggest reason for losing is my own team being undergeared or maybe inexperienced.
I also agree that ELO will never work as intended, your reasoning is entirely correct, if you add to that the limited player base, we will (even a few months from now) have completely lopsided matchmaking, and more than likely horrible Q times, and before anyone says, hey but that's been fixed, the only reason that it seems to be fixed is ELO has been turned OFF, or dialed down so much that it is completely useless .
Try to find it. You won't.
In fact I have always said it doesn't matter how many matches you have competed in and is actually effected by how many matches everybody has competed in.
I said it will improve indefinitely with time. As in it stabilizes more and more with time.
Once it stabilizes though it won't take longer for new players to get accurately rated as that is what that 30 match statement is actually in regards to. The unknown variable is how long it will take to stabilize. It could stabilize tomorrow or months from now. But the only way for it to stabilize is time.
And that is my broken record for weeks and I predict I will be singing that tune for weeks more. That is the facts though, the system needs time to stabilize and it will take time. The word of advice though is the more you guys throw matches for stupid reasons such as leaving the longer it will take.