Interestingly, my recent experiences have told me that even GS isn't a real factor.
Just far too many people with 14~16k GS and yet, thoroughly and hilariously unprepared for pvp. I've been seeing a lot of these, especially (I don't know what the reason is but..) with GWF/GF fighter classes.
All sorts of idiocy ranging from a GWF/GF thinking he's some sort of TR and just abandoning the big fights where the tanks/meathshields are most needed and running backnodes for personal score... to Great Weapon Tofus and Guardian Butters... just melting even when something sneezes at them.
Ofcourse, newbie-idiocy is spread more or less equally to all classes, such as HRs thinking they're some sorta lonewolf bad-<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, never on the node, running 100feet backwards so long as something gives them the look, racking up kills and yet zero contribution to winning the match.... cws that don't last even for 10 secs against anything if no meatshields around.. TRs thinking copying the FotM PoB builds is going to do any good.. DCs that are utterly worthless and even two of these don't do as much healing/protecting the team than one good DC... but all in all, the most common idiocy I've seen come from GF/GWFs.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Interestingly, my recent experiences have told me that even GS isn't a real factor.
I would assume you can empirically devalue that statement. Higher GS should always give you a better shot at winning when you take skill out of consideration.
That said, GS contributes to the "skill" that factors into the ELO, but that does not necessarily mean you don't have to adjust separately for the variable in a way that winning against opponents with superior GS is worth more than the other way round. A very complex field to say the least, and since nobody knows the formula it's rather inconclusive to theorize about it.
I don't think this game has the population to support full on bracketing. You have to either accept that some matches will be imbalanced, or accept very long queue times.
Funny. This is exactly what the ELO system does. So why add GS to the equation?
Simply because gear is a factor in the fights and the current complaints are about gear scores. So you make it part of the system and everyone gets what they want (or deserve).
Further should player behaviour alone not determine how the queue matches teams up. It would only help in exploiting the mechanics. Some players might throw matches purposely before the Arena PvP Event only to get a better chance at winning during the event and to gain more glory. This would suck hard for the regular PvPers, who play all the time and not only during the event.
PvP is 95% of the time either a boring walkover or a totally frustrating, crushing defeat. 5% of the time we have matched teams that both have some idea what they are doing and can win or lose by 30 points.
There should be some sort of seeding system, like they do with golf and tennis. You never got Bjorn Borg playing against a total unknown in the Wimbledon finals and winning 6:0, 6:0, 6:0 with straight aces.
They should really sort this mess out, as it encourages the more infantile and juvenile players to be utterly obnoxious towards their own team, tantrum raging about gear scores etc.
assuming that the elo system isn't matching matches like it should is based on what factual information exactly? how fast you're getting queued into pvp?
the theory that a higher gear score should be an indicator of a higher ranked player is a really bad theory. i see dozens of complaints here on the forums about bad pugs and people running to the home base or single players running to the center cap... or players fighting off cap... but your limited to view your own teams gs, not to mention who knows if gear swapping happens which could affect this theory or if people are playing for the kill, not the mechanics of capping nodes. and then there's the possibility that someone has a high gs but is a casual pvper.
gs does not equal elo rank. if gear score was the indicator of a skilled player, then i'm sure the matchmaking system would have been built around it but the fact is, it isn't. and it wasn't.
in my view based on my play style, the new matchmaker system works perfectly for me. it is a far better experience today than it was before. and i can understand why people that like to set up custom matches aren't having fun with queuing premades because they were able to manipulate the queue before to match up against premade teams they wanted to play. today, they can't do that because of the leaver penalty. hopefully, PWE will get a custom match option in there shortly after module 3 drops. there's no reason why people shouldn't have a variety of options based on their play styles... all within reason, of course. too many queue options would make pvp's queue times horrible... unless they were listed as "preferences" and the these preferences could be throttled up or down depending on queue times.
Just parity between teams. 10 lopsided matches in a row = broken matchmaking. I am being a merciless consumer the same way I would be if I was making any other consumer decision. I simply am not going to wait for some "fix" to fix its self so the game is fun for me. I will simply choose to do something else. As will most consumers. That is not a threat "do x or I quit", it is just considerate feedback from a consumer: "Your product is not on par with other products, and so you will likely lose customers". Call it free to play all you want, f2p games are a shopping mall which are free to enter and which provide an experience pleasant enough to make people want to buy stuff. Waiting twenty minutes in a line to get into the coolest store in the mall only to find that its products suck will cause people to stay away from that mall period. Sorry but this street is crowded with all kinds of awesome malls with no lines and great products.
Just parity between teams. 10 lopsided matches in a row = broken matchmaking. I am being a merciless consumer the same way I would be if I was making any other consumer decision. I simply am not going to wait for some "fix" to fix its self so the game is fun for me. I will simply choose to do something else. As will most consumers. That is not a threat "do x or I quit", it is just considerate feedback from a consumer: "Your product is not on par with other products, and so you will likely lose customers". Call it free to play all you want, f2p games are a shopping mall which are free to enter and which provide an experience pleasant enough to make people want to buy stuff. Waiting twenty minutes in a line to get into the coolest store in the mall only to find that its products suck will cause people to stay away from that mall period. Sorry but this street is crowded with all kinds of awesome malls with no lines and great products.
See you guys there.
you are absolutely correct. PWE has been doing f2p for a long time and are well aware of the kinds of players it brings... attracting players that might not normally be interested in an MMORPG but it gives them an opportunity to try it out. maybe they stay, maybe they don't. although i'm pretty sure that PWE is not worried about losing a few players because it probably happens daily. i don't have any numbers to prove it but i do know that jack emmert is aware as he spoke of this in a 2013 article.
they are most certainly aware that they have a core player base that is willing to wait through changes and waits for content and events. you're not limited to be part of any particular group either. you're welcome to come and go as you please. we just ask that your feedback is constructive and respectful and to limit your goodbyes to in-game. that's all.
Sharandar boons and dailies, dread ring boons and dailies, like you said not enough skill points and feats, the gear imbalance is too much that it will take an even longer time (than it already is) to keep finding appropriate matches for you.
Too many reasons to not implement this. Too many factors to calculate, will make ELO even more horrible than it already is. They should not implement it just to justify and defend themselves against your argument.
Hmm...how about a variation of this idea. Keep all the existing divisions of PvP in place, but have Elo start on the players when they first start playing Pvp. The idea being that they will have an Elo ranking by the time hit level 60.
I believe a number of the complaints including my own about the blue gear players is due to the fact that they are "new" to the Elo system and so it takes time for the Elo system to get them matched "appropriately."
Especially since gear isn't a factor in the system at level 60, why should it matter in the lower levels? Wouldn't this help to speed up matchmaking if all the new level 60 players already have an Elo ranking?
you are absolutely correct. PWE has been doing f2p for a long time and are well aware of the kinds of players it brings... attracting players that might not normally be interested in an MMORPG but it gives them an opportunity to try it out. maybe they stay, maybe they don't. although i'm pretty sure that PWE is not worried about losing a few players because it probably happens daily. i don't have any numbers to prove it but i do know that jack emmert is aware as he spoke of this in a 2013 article.
they are most certainly aware that they have a core player base that is willing to wait through changes and waits for content and events. you're not limited to be part of any particular group either. you're welcome to come and go as you please. we just ask that your feedback is constructive and respectful and to limit your goodbyes to in-game. that's all.
That is the most awesomely tolerant reply to a pretty terse post I think I've ever seen. Thanks! I know for any business the basic goal is to pick up more customers than you lose every month (or quarter), because customer attrition is simply a fact of business. I am saying that I think, my opinion, that the problem is so bad right now that the growth to attrition ratio has to be in a red zone. In other words, I can see the population of paying customers shrinking. Not just because I want to buy less, but it is what I hear from others as well. And crazy as it sounds, the gold spammers are a decent indication of what is up with the portion of the NWO population that is willing to pay money. Their prices are going down down down. I saw a 30% drop since the pvp patch, which recently corrected its self back up to about a 20% drop and it seems to be stabilizing there.
It is just frustrating because with the amazing combat mechanics and obvious passion the devs have for this game, pvp could be truly epic in NWO. But it always looks like the wrong solutions are applied. The issue of lopsided matches was serious enough for the dev team to respond really quickly. But with a system that takes A LONG TIME to actually work. You get how that doesnt make sense.
I'll still be here :P I will still get a bug up my, er, wallet, and shell out a few bucks for something spiffy. But maybe a quarter of what I spent when I was more optimistic. The rest will be spent in other f2p's which will use up most of my gaming time. NWO is becoming one of those games thats like, "Man I love that game, if only this or if only that..." that a player comes back to occasionally to see if stuff was fixed. To be really open and honest, I used to buy about every new mount that came out and a good bit of zen to convert to ad to speed-refine artifacts and enchants. This month all I did was spend the two bucks to give one of my characters a new look. Thats like $120.00 down to $5.00. If that is at all representative of everyone else it is not a good sign for NWO. I'm not sure how they can constantly nerf classes and expect people to want to buy anything at all. The gwf and hr upcoming nerfs are going to be devastating. If they are going to nerf things, they need to get rid of vorpal, period, and make the crit severity a universal feat option that comes at a high price in terms of builds. It would make everyone mad who spent the less than $100 on their p vorp, but it would definitely be better than destroying classes that people have spent thousands of dollars on. My two cents. I just love this game and I hate to see it dying like this.
I would just like to say that I enjoy PvP, I do it A LOT with my cleric and I think the PvP system is a lot more balanced then it "was" thanks to the hard work of the guys behind the code. I will say I do disagree with the perma stelth rogue, "however" there is a artifact that fixes that issue but I don't think it last that long (never used it myself). I do find myself in lousy parties sometimes but I just brush it off and try my hardest to annoy the other team with CAPS. But I'll say this I've had far more close fights then I ever had with the old system, anyway just my two cents, oh and the cleric's daunting light's AOE.
A. Increase in damage output.
- or -
B. AOE needs to be a bit larger as right now in PvP even blued its hard to hit anything with it.
I would like to see it's AOE the same as flame strike when blued.
and on normal attack the same as it is blued at the moment.
I just feel that over the years playing a cleric they have been more AOE driven and right now that damage spell is lacking - bad...
I am saying that I think, my opinion, that the problem is so bad right now that the growth to attrition ratio has to be in a red zone. In other words, I can see the population of paying customers shrinking. Not just because I want to buy less, but it is what I hear from others as well. And crazy as it sounds, the gold spammers are a decent indication of what is up with the portion of the NWO population that is willing to pay money. Their prices are going down down down. I saw a 30% drop since the pvp patch, which recently corrected its self back up to about a 20% drop and it seems to be stabilizing there.
there's really no factual way to prove the population either way, but i definitely would never use the gold spammers as a gauge for the pulse of any game. those guys will do anything, including lowering their own prices, to sell more. there's also the ratio of true f2p players vs cash customers and there's no way to determine what percentage of which is more likely to take a break or to leave the game completely. just like anyone here on the forums could claim to be one or the other and you kind of have to take all of it with a grain of salt because none of it is provable. there are all kind of metrics that would be nice to know but unfortunately we will only get what is provided to us.
It is just frustrating because with the amazing combat mechanics and obvious passion the devs have for this game, pvp could be truly epic in NWO. But it always looks like the wrong solutions are applied. The issue of lopsided matches was serious enough for the dev team to respond really quickly. But with a system that takes A LONG TIME to actually work. You get how that doesnt make sense.
I'll still be here :P I will still get a bug up my, er, wallet, and shell out a few bucks for something spiffy. But maybe a quarter of what I spent when I was more optimistic. The rest will be spent in other f2p's which will use up most of my gaming time. NWO is becoming one of those games thats like, "Man I love that game, if only this or if only that..." that a player comes back to occasionally to see if stuff was fixed. To be really open and honest, I used to buy about every new mount that came out and a good bit of zen to convert to ad to speed-refine artifacts and enchants. This month all I did was spend the two bucks to give one of my characters a new look. Thats like $120.00 down to $5.00. If that is at all representative of everyone else it is not a good sign for NWO. I'm not sure how they can constantly nerf classes and expect people to want to buy anything at all. The gwf and hr upcoming nerfs are going to be devastating. If they are going to nerf things, they need to get rid of vorpal, period, and make the crit severity a universal feat option that comes at a high price in terms of builds. It would make everyone mad who spent the less than $100 on their p vorp, but it would definitely be better than destroying classes that people have spent thousands of dollars on. My two cents. I just love this game and I hate to see it dying like this.
well, you also can't gauge the state of the game or the implemented game changes by forum feedback alone. again, metrics along with additional avenues that people have to send in bug reports and feedback can be far more valuable than the same 50-100 forum regulars singing the same mantra over and over again. that's not to say that forum feedback isn't considered and appreciated, it's just not the entire picture.
plus we're literally about to see a new module drop soon so a lot of players have seen all there is to see and then some of dread ring and they're dying to see what's next.
i never quite understood this idea that playing a video game is like dating: you can only be with one at a time and if you break up with her, you're going to burn that bridge forever. but it's really not like that at all. i'm sure PWE is aware that direct competitors are dropping new titles soon, but look at STO and CO... they still have players in those games and develop new content for those games... not to mention those games have survived many a new title drop. they may not be the hot new titles they used to be but they still have that dedicated core player base. obviously all games have a life span, but i really don't see neverwinter as being in a downward spiral so soon.
Comments
Just far too many people with 14~16k GS and yet, thoroughly and hilariously unprepared for pvp. I've been seeing a lot of these, especially (I don't know what the reason is but..) with GWF/GF fighter classes.
All sorts of idiocy ranging from a GWF/GF thinking he's some sort of TR and just abandoning the big fights where the tanks/meathshields are most needed and running backnodes for personal score... to Great Weapon Tofus and Guardian Butters... just melting even when something sneezes at them.
Ofcourse, newbie-idiocy is spread more or less equally to all classes, such as HRs thinking they're some sorta lonewolf bad-<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, never on the node, running 100feet backwards so long as something gives them the look, racking up kills and yet zero contribution to winning the match.... cws that don't last even for 10 secs against anything if no meatshields around.. TRs thinking copying the FotM PoB builds is going to do any good.. DCs that are utterly worthless and even two of these don't do as much healing/protecting the team than one good DC... but all in all, the most common idiocy I've seen come from GF/GWFs.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I would assume you can empirically devalue that statement. Higher GS should always give you a better shot at winning when you take skill out of consideration.
That said, GS contributes to the "skill" that factors into the ELO, but that does not necessarily mean you don't have to adjust separately for the variable in a way that winning against opponents with superior GS is worth more than the other way round. A very complex field to say the least, and since nobody knows the formula it's rather inconclusive to theorize about it.
Further should player behaviour alone not determine how the queue matches teams up. It would only help in exploiting the mechanics. Some players might throw matches purposely before the Arena PvP Event only to get a better chance at winning during the event and to gain more glory. This would suck hard for the regular PvPers, who play all the time and not only during the event.
PvP is 95% of the time either a boring walkover or a totally frustrating, crushing defeat. 5% of the time we have matched teams that both have some idea what they are doing and can win or lose by 30 points.
There should be some sort of seeding system, like they do with golf and tennis. You never got Bjorn Borg playing against a total unknown in the Wimbledon finals and winning 6:0, 6:0, 6:0 with straight aces.
They should really sort this mess out, as it encourages the more infantile and juvenile players to be utterly obnoxious towards their own team, tantrum raging about gear scores etc.
~
Just parity between teams. 10 lopsided matches in a row = broken matchmaking. I am being a merciless consumer the same way I would be if I was making any other consumer decision. I simply am not going to wait for some "fix" to fix its self so the game is fun for me. I will simply choose to do something else. As will most consumers. That is not a threat "do x or I quit", it is just considerate feedback from a consumer: "Your product is not on par with other products, and so you will likely lose customers". Call it free to play all you want, f2p games are a shopping mall which are free to enter and which provide an experience pleasant enough to make people want to buy stuff. Waiting twenty minutes in a line to get into the coolest store in the mall only to find that its products suck will cause people to stay away from that mall period. Sorry but this street is crowded with all kinds of awesome malls with no lines and great products.
See you guys there.
Jugger Conq GF
....
you are absolutely correct. PWE has been doing f2p for a long time and are well aware of the kinds of players it brings... attracting players that might not normally be interested in an MMORPG but it gives them an opportunity to try it out. maybe they stay, maybe they don't. although i'm pretty sure that PWE is not worried about losing a few players because it probably happens daily. i don't have any numbers to prove it but i do know that jack emmert is aware as he spoke of this in a 2013 article.
they are most certainly aware that they have a core player base that is willing to wait through changes and waits for content and events. you're not limited to be part of any particular group either. you're welcome to come and go as you please. we just ask that your feedback is constructive and respectful and to limit your goodbyes to in-game. that's all.
Hmm...how about a variation of this idea. Keep all the existing divisions of PvP in place, but have Elo start on the players when they first start playing Pvp. The idea being that they will have an Elo ranking by the time hit level 60.
I believe a number of the complaints including my own about the blue gear players is due to the fact that they are "new" to the Elo system and so it takes time for the Elo system to get them matched "appropriately."
Especially since gear isn't a factor in the system at level 60, why should it matter in the lower levels? Wouldn't this help to speed up matchmaking if all the new level 60 players already have an Elo ranking?
That is the most awesomely tolerant reply to a pretty terse post I think I've ever seen. Thanks! I know for any business the basic goal is to pick up more customers than you lose every month (or quarter), because customer attrition is simply a fact of business. I am saying that I think, my opinion, that the problem is so bad right now that the growth to attrition ratio has to be in a red zone. In other words, I can see the population of paying customers shrinking. Not just because I want to buy less, but it is what I hear from others as well. And crazy as it sounds, the gold spammers are a decent indication of what is up with the portion of the NWO population that is willing to pay money. Their prices are going down down down. I saw a 30% drop since the pvp patch, which recently corrected its self back up to about a 20% drop and it seems to be stabilizing there.
It is just frustrating because with the amazing combat mechanics and obvious passion the devs have for this game, pvp could be truly epic in NWO. But it always looks like the wrong solutions are applied. The issue of lopsided matches was serious enough for the dev team to respond really quickly. But with a system that takes A LONG TIME to actually work. You get how that doesnt make sense.
I'll still be here :P I will still get a bug up my, er, wallet, and shell out a few bucks for something spiffy. But maybe a quarter of what I spent when I was more optimistic. The rest will be spent in other f2p's which will use up most of my gaming time. NWO is becoming one of those games thats like, "Man I love that game, if only this or if only that..." that a player comes back to occasionally to see if stuff was fixed. To be really open and honest, I used to buy about every new mount that came out and a good bit of zen to convert to ad to speed-refine artifacts and enchants. This month all I did was spend the two bucks to give one of my characters a new look. Thats like $120.00 down to $5.00. If that is at all representative of everyone else it is not a good sign for NWO. I'm not sure how they can constantly nerf classes and expect people to want to buy anything at all. The gwf and hr upcoming nerfs are going to be devastating. If they are going to nerf things, they need to get rid of vorpal, period, and make the crit severity a universal feat option that comes at a high price in terms of builds. It would make everyone mad who spent the less than $100 on their p vorp, but it would definitely be better than destroying classes that people have spent thousands of dollars on. My two cents. I just love this game and I hate to see it dying like this.
A. Increase in damage output.
- or -
B. AOE needs to be a bit larger as right now in PvP even blued its hard to hit anything with it.
I would like to see it's AOE the same as flame strike when blued.
and on normal attack the same as it is blued at the moment.
I just feel that over the years playing a cleric they have been more AOE driven and right now that damage spell is lacking - bad...
there's really no factual way to prove the population either way, but i definitely would never use the gold spammers as a gauge for the pulse of any game. those guys will do anything, including lowering their own prices, to sell more. there's also the ratio of true f2p players vs cash customers and there's no way to determine what percentage of which is more likely to take a break or to leave the game completely. just like anyone here on the forums could claim to be one or the other and you kind of have to take all of it with a grain of salt because none of it is provable. there are all kind of metrics that would be nice to know but unfortunately we will only get what is provided to us.
well, you also can't gauge the state of the game or the implemented game changes by forum feedback alone. again, metrics along with additional avenues that people have to send in bug reports and feedback can be far more valuable than the same 50-100 forum regulars singing the same mantra over and over again. that's not to say that forum feedback isn't considered and appreciated, it's just not the entire picture.
plus we're literally about to see a new module drop soon so a lot of players have seen all there is to see and then some of dread ring and they're dying to see what's next.
i never quite understood this idea that playing a video game is like dating: you can only be with one at a time and if you break up with her, you're going to burn that bridge forever. but it's really not like that at all. i'm sure PWE is aware that direct competitors are dropping new titles soon, but look at STO and CO... they still have players in those games and develop new content for those games... not to mention those games have survived many a new title drop. they may not be the hot new titles they used to be but they still have that dedicated core player base. obviously all games have a life span, but i really don't see neverwinter as being in a downward spiral so soon.