gipsylassMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 61
edited March 2014
Okay, I just turned 60 a few days ago, so my GS isn't all that great yet.
I tried Sharandar (the intro before you actually go into Sharandar) - first with my HR on Live, afterwards on Preview.
On Live I managed ok. On Preview it was very hard. I hardly managed. The encounter skills' cooldowns are too long to be of much help.
And split shot... well it's all been said.
You've nerfed a fun to play class (talking PvE only) into oblivion.
From the very beginning I wanted to play a HR, it's one of my favourite classes (Mages are the other one) in all games. I waited patiently until the HR was brought into the game and was happy to be able to play it. I must say it's very sad to see what you've done to it.
Please reconsider... if you nerf split shot give us some good encounters with shorter cooldowns or don't nerf split shot - at best not at all, but at the very least not as bad.
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ministerofchangeMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited March 2014
The new path is pathetic, I see nothing in it that is worth me changing to it.
The Nerf to Split shot is ridiculous! I can see dropping it 25% at most, especially since all the other at wills are useless (exception being aimed shot but with the activation time and how easily it is interrupted it is hardly useful as an at will). Rapid shot is barely passable and is only useful because you can just hold the button and let it machine gun (slowly). Electric shot does pathetic damage and its "suppose" AOE effect hasn't worked once for me (or for that matter anyone I have ever seen use it). The new at will for the second paragon path is just silly at best.
And look, another daily power for HR that only has a melee component, not a ranged. I still think the entire "switch from melee to range" mechanic for the HR is a waste of time, mine has been 60 for a few months and I have never gone into melee mode on him the entire time he has existed (except accidently when I hit the wrong button and then usually I am dead instantly). If I wanted a melee character I would just switch to my TR, HR should NEVER have been anything but ranged, dritz whateverhis name is be damned.
The new path is pathetic, I see nothing in it that is worth me changing to it.
The Nerf to Split shot is ridiculous! I can see dropping it 25% at most, especially since all the other at wills are useless (exception being aimed shot but with the activation time and how easily it is interrupted it is hardly useful as an at will). Rapid shot is barely passable and is only useful because you can just hold the button and let it machine gun (slowly). Electric shot does pathetic damage and its "suppose" AOE effect hasn't worked once for me (or for that matter anyone I have ever seen use it). The new at will for the second paragon path is just silly at best.
And look, another daily power for HR that only has a melee component, not a ranged. I still think the entire "switch from melee to range" mechanic for the HR is a waste of time, mine has been 60 for a few months and I have never gone into melee mode on him the entire time he has existed (except accidently when I hit the wrong button and then usually I am dead instantly). If I wanted a melee character I would just switch to my TR, HR should NEVER have been anything but ranged, dritz whateverhis name is be damned.
this is exactly why this needs to happen because people dont use the encounters or melee at all unless spec'ed for it just split shot which seems to be all anyone cares about which makes the class boring, powerful but boring.
And its not real. these skills are at thier bare minimum for this test cycle.
No it doesn't need to happen and the reason why is cause not everyone wants to melee. These changes are too much. I gave up on playing on preview cause it is useless and pointless as the change is too much and barely survive in the old zones let alone the new zones.
1. Remove daily use requirement for Pathfinder Action. <-- SUPER important. Without removing this requirement there is no way Pathfinder will stack up to Storm. I understand it is called PATHFINDER ACTION because you use action points to activate it but it is the only way this Paragon path will be viable.
2. Remove the target requirement for Careful attack. This is the Pathfinders version of Clear the ground it should have the same function. Maybe this is asking a lot of an at will but hey it is what it is. Also why is this not generating action points....
3. Allow temp hit points to stack up to 10. Once again this would make it worth a slot for PVE still not good enough to slot it for PVP.
4. Get rid of Dev's choice Fox shift or Bear trap and give us an execute ability. I give a choice here because let's be honest fox shift is no longer worth it for melee and we need an execute ability badly. They can even remake Fox shift to become a single target nuke that we need. However bear trap is just all around bad. Bad damage and bad mechanic small AOE just nothing good at all about it. We are the only class without an execute ability. EVEN CLERICS have an execute Ability via there dailies.
Hunter’s Teamwork Not affected by arpen. The heal is sort of cool and i like that it can crit but rather pointless since its a single target power. Would in my opinon work better as an aoe marking ability.
The big thing with this to me is the supplies package should be more distinguishable from normal loot. I suggest a square like package that floats off the ground about waist level (at least for taller humanoids). This isn't as useful solo, but it's a decent replacement for rapid shot in groups, perhaps for nature rangers.
Ambush Some extra damage is nice but with the state of split shot on preview and lack of other aoe options its lacklustre.
I found teaming this up with hawk shot was alright but I have to give up the mobility from marauders escape/rush. Solo, that's a pretty heavy price to pay and I still kill things much faster with normal layout than with the pathfinder skills/augments.
Bear Trap Not affected by arpen. I tried it feated and its basically a disruptive shot with a long animation. Awkward for use in pve espically since its only 2 charges with cooldown between them.
I got a kinda of rhythm with the new pathfinder set killing packs in the dread ring. It's different, but can work. Basically you lay out the bear traps before you engage in front of a melee mob that will rush you. Then I'd ambush, rain of arrows, the caster while trying to keep moving with the splitshot, then ambush to get a break real quick and then rain of arrows again, move.. picking up healing packs from Hunters Teamwork.
Is it fun, I don't know, it's different and not nearly as effective as just sticking with my old skills even nerfed, at least solo. Given the increased difficulty in Icewind Dale I experienced, trying to use pathfinder skills is probably terrible there.
Bear trap might be useful in pvp or group pve if it could trigger if it hits in enemy while traveling through the air rather than having to actually land on the ground, deploy, and then get the enemy to go over it. Plus throwing open bear traps as an attacks sounds awesome.
Pathfinder’s Action The only thing i would pick pathfinder for. Great synergy with disruptive.
Ya, this is certainly the best, but I'd rather have the nerfed Storm Step and Twin Blades than anything Pathfinder offers.
I don't think Pathfinder gonna be more popular than Stormwarder. Here is my feedback from short testing of the new paragon: At-Will - Hunter's Teamwork/Careful Attack - I think most people will simply skip this at-will, in open world anyone passing by seems capable of picking those drops (at least I never found any drop myself from targets marked) and the ranged at-will that can only be used once on one mob till it dies is hardly useful. Melee at-wills are all weak attacks and this one is no exception. Encounter - Ambush/Bear Trap - Ambush bonus dmg boost is too easily lost and should NEVER depend on the character moving since it contradicts the need of stealth element of this skill. IF someone stealths, it's either to get closer to target or to move away from the enemy. Bear trap could use 3 charges instead of 2 or shorter cooldown and just one charge. It's targetting system mimicking DC's Daunting Light is very unhandy for a melee skill, I think it should be a fast drop trap at the HR's location instead. Also, it looks big small for a BEAR trap. Daily - Slasher mark - From the description this skill seems rather useless and a big waste of daily power, I decided not to test it. I guess it's supposed to aid the tank at DD boss, but 100% AP is way too much sacrifice, imho.
As for the older skills changes:
- Split shot nerf is too big. It was the best at-will just because Aimed Shot is so easily interrupted, the rest almost do no damage at all and encounter attacks have long cooldown (except Hindering Shot with 3 charges, which is why I prefer it over Constricting/Binding Arrows, especially as it does decent damage too).
- Fox Shift is acceptable and remains one of the hardest hitting melee skills HRs have.
- Thorn Strike is still mediocre attack at best. The damage gain from target's lower health is barely noticeable still.
- Forest Meditation - I could never see much use for this skill, except maybe healing outside the fight, but even then pots would still be faster and waste no AP...
I don't think Pathfinder gonna be more popular than Stormwarder. Here is my feedback from short testing of the new paragon: At-Will - Hunter's Teamwork/Careful Attack - I think most people will simply skip this at-will, in open world anyone passing by seems capable of picking those drops (at least I never found any drop myself from targets marked) and the ranged at-will that can only be used once on one mob till it dies is hardly useful. Melee at-wills are all weak attacks and this one is no exception. Encounter - Ambush/Bear Trap - Ambush bonus dmg boost is too easily lost and should NEVER depend on the character moving since it contradicts the need of stealth element of this skill. IF someone stealths, it's either to get closer to target or to move away from the enemy. Bear trap could use 3 charges instead of 2 or shorter cooldown and just one charge. It's targetting system mimicking DC's Daunting Light is very unhandy for a melee skill, I think it should be a fast drop trap at the HR's location instead. Also, it looks big small for a BEAR trap. Daily - Slasher mark - From the description this skill seems rather useless and a big waste of daily power, I decided not to test it. I guess it's supposed to aid the tank at DD boss, but 100% AP is way too much sacrifice, imho.
As for the older skills changes:
- Split shot nerf is too big. It was the best at-will just because Aimed Shot is so easily interrupted, the rest almost do no damage at all and encounter attacks have long cooldown (except Hindering Shot with 3 charges, which is why I prefer it over Constricting/Binding Arrows, especially as it does decent damage too).
- Fox Shift is acceptable and remains one of the hardest hitting melee skills HRs have.
- Thorn Strike is still mediocre attack at best. The damage gain from target's lower health is barely noticeable still.
- Forest Meditation - I could never see much use for this skill, except maybe healing outside the fight, but even then pots would still be faster and waste no AP...
ONLY against 3 targets that are next to eachother, against a single target even marauders does more dmg which is nonsense since it also gives you insane utility.
The more i play around the pathfinder stuff the more it feels like it was designed for a different game.
My main is HR, i downloaded preview content as fast as i could to try out, but right now, i dont even feel playing there anymore... HR is really dead on preview. There is nothing else to give feedback, all have been said already on this topic.
"so taking our best damage encounter and at will from HRs is not the best option to "balance" the DPS CLASS of the game"
I'm certainly not the greatest player in the game, but I run with a very good team and have worked hard to get my HR to keep up with them in damage and still really don't. But the quote above explains how I feel exactly. I'm a ranged HR, and feel at this point that I've put a lot of work into this character with no positive end result, because one of the ways I contributed well in both PVE and PVP is this at will, and now it has been rendered impotent.
the thing with switching between melee, and and range i think cause some problems, it means you have to spec for one or the other. i think a good portion of the players want a ranger with a bow, thats why i think many of us chose the hunter, for ranged combat. so in looking at that switching ability it reminds me more of a TR with a bow, than being a ranger. its a neat gimmick for players that like that aspect, but its also a bunch of wasted space for people wanting just a ranged combat specialist. and for me, if i wanted to play a TR, i would have rolled one.
i will be the first to admit i do not know very much about 4th addition D&d, have not looked at the rules, but i do know D&D in general. i also have a fair amount of experience with MMO's.
right now, the hunter ranger does not feel much like a hunter, or a ranger. our abilities are all over the spectrum, from buffs, to debuffs, ranged, to melee, agility/mobility to using our abilities negating that mobility. we have very little reliable consistent damage, we are typically pretty squishy.
if one sits down and reads through all of our abilities, you start asking our selves like i have been asking, what are we? assassins, 2-weapon fighter, or ranger. are we back line support or artillery?
i personally feel, that our powers need to be streamlined, and condensed,
for instance hindering shot and constricting arrow, so close to being the same skill with very minor differences, both apply a CC effect, both apply some damage, just constricting is by far the better of the 2 in terms of both the damage and CC effect, so i suggest deleting hindering shot; and making a new ability to replace.
thorn ward, rain of arrows, and virtually the same, both are target area abilities that do damage, just have different animations and close to the same area of effect, and BOTH are to easy to walk out of thus rendering them wasted. hunters teamwork, and quick shot both about the same damage, both "slow" animations not really quick at all, and root you in place for the animation. thus defeating the concept of popshot. and the drops from team work rarely drop to make it worth a slot at all, neither skill very useful, low damage, slow animations and not being able to move during the animation creates problems when your trying to be agile and continue laying our damage.
split shot, was our only reliable AOE ranged attack, yet if its not doing damage, then its kinda mute to slot it.
i like ambush, only moving accidentally renders ambush part useless, and using aimed shot i loose stealth at the start of the "aimed shot" animation, so the shot does not fire because the moment stealth is dropped the mobs hit you and cancel it.
aimed shot has good damage, but you can only use it to open an engagement the animation is way to long, and is so easy to interrupt that you cannot use it more than once.
forest ghost and forest mediation, are great, i would not change them, they work, and are good utility.
i do not like hawk shot, it feels like aimed shot with average less damage, but on an encounter.
cruel recovery, not really that helpful, when these mobs chunk you for 1/3 to 1/2 your hit points per hit, "1%" bonus hit points isn't gonna save you or help you unless you spec for alot of HP, which is hard to do on a HR.
battlehoned, nice idea, but a duration of 4 seconds is not gonna regen enough to be effective or helpful. and when we are "attacked" well considering we just got chunked for 1/3 hit points on a hit, that regen is not enough.
pathfinder's action, this is actually the worst ability in my opinion, first the "boost" is not noticeable enough to justify slotting it.
now, in my opinion,
the HR is actually a rather slow and immobile class, a determined GWF, and TR will catch you even with all our "mobility" powers. a CW will CC lock you. if we turn to try and kite and shoot, we are doing nothing but ensuring our own death because slow animations.
think about how fights unfold, and play out, combat is a fluid, moving encounter, nobody stands still unless you are CC'd. yet, our at wills is like placing a Crowd control on ourselves. stops any movement, and fluid feel for the HR.
our area of effect powers, "rain of arrows", "thorn ward" to easy to just walk out of, small area of effect, DOT damage is kinda of useless on a moving battle field.
final note, concerning balancing
each class should have clear paths for specializations, with unique abilities that both enhance a team, yet doesn't create a crutch for the team to lean on. that is why i think HR's are in a very bad position, we do no offer anything that really enhances a team. even if all of our powers are buffed, it still will not offer much for a team for dungeons and other epic encounters. it is kind of clear now, that we are not a dps class, it is kind of clear we are not a control class, it is kind of clear we are not a buff/debuff class.
we have
CW, a ranged cc machine
gf, tank, durable class with decent team buffs, and debuffs melee
dc, heals and buffs, ranged
gwf, tanky dps with incredible mobility, and aoe specs, melee
tr, single target high dps burst melee, and durable to boot.
now with the HR, logic would fill ranged dps, only its not. we have a lot of skills, that can lead in a hell of a lot of different builds, but really no build is gonna surpass what other classes can bring. before moving forward in balancing and re imaging the class a proper path needs to be set, a goal of what the HR needs/should be.
as far as feedback on the new paragon path, interesting but what is the goal?
pathfinder's action, this is actually the worst ability in my opinion, first the "boost" is not noticeable enough to justify slotting it.
This is why I suggested they take away the daily use requirement. It is the only way this tree COULD be possibly viable. As a tank Melee HR every extra deflect helps. Even in small amounts. Other classes have similar they can slot without the crazy daily use requirement. As melee with all the deflect we get 13 percent just from sitting in melee stance. Add this to it and it would be pretty sweet.
The rest of the tree feels blah. Yet if they did just that one thing... It MIGHT hold viable. The only other thing we would be missing is a replacement for clear the ground. As for clear the ground you do not even need a target. You can spam your AOE at will with the hopes of hitting a stealthy.
This is why I suggested they take away the daily use requirement. It is the only way this tree COULD be possibly viable. As a tank Melee HR every extra deflect helps. Even in small amounts. Other classes have similar they can slot without the crazy daily use requirement. As melee with all the deflect we get 13 percent just from sitting in melee stance. Add this to it and it would be pretty sweet.
The rest of the tree feels blah. Yet if they did just that one thing... It MIGHT hold viable. The only other thing we would be missing is a replacement for clear the ground. As for clear the ground you do not even need a target. You can spam your AOE at will with the hopes of hitting a stealthy.
yeah the daily requirement for path action is wierd it should just be passive for slotting it trs and gwf have this even clerics have something like this when they heal that is passive just from doing what they do.
and if not we cant use disruptive but once every 9 seconds maybe get rid of the cool downs for dailies since no one else has them that way we have enough ap to use what the situation demands and we can use it when ever we need to because none of the dailies are strong. that way were never with out the effect as long as we have ap and even the effects arent incredibly impressive so this isnt a big deal. please let us know a spit ball duration of testing current build it would relieve some stress.
defense, movement speed, and deflect also is important for any ranger too its why mine does not die like others yet still has the power to blast or buff or fight on through pain.
just an after thought here,
when thinking of the balancing, and re imaging of the class or classes
please remeber we have time, and astral diomonds already invested into our enchants, if its gonna require us to respec those, many people might get upset, with the loss of energy we have invested in the enchants.
would you say this is the lowest a ranger has ever been? id say its pretty impressive that people are actually having trouble due to change to 1 move shows just how much it was overpowered and how weak everything else is comparatively in peoples minds. shows me imbalance.
i would say this is the lowest any class has every been.
just simply no class deffinition, no class derection makes it hard to know how to build an effeint HR. there are alot of powers that seam to have requirements based on other powers which in turn have feats that boost this or that power.
makes it confusing switching screens reading through feats, and powers, trying to figure out what powers boosted by what other power boosted by what feats.
not very streamlined, and can easily gimp yourself in your build.
thats true but the ranger has never been this way. So no one knows, its interesting to me.
and you're right its not streamlined you can easily destroy a gf or gwf or a tr too especially if you dont understand how they all work together you cant focus on damage damage is gimped focus on surviving on test.
im not saying this to anyone in particular but testing a game is not like being a gamer and being a gamer is not like being a tester not in the least. read any college video game testers manual it will tell you the same thing.
a gamer can only become a tester or stay a gamer or try to do both but its frustrating to do both. its why im focusing efforts on improving the class instead of playing live so all ideas can be approached.
focus on how to streamline feats if you have a problem with it then post it or make up your own tool tips maybe they will use that instead of thier usual crypticness.
im going to be focusing on effects that powers cause and how to use them together and compare while testing whats infront of us.
theyve already told us that they dont currently know the path like they want to so this itself means we got time for the mod drop and time to influence that very same drop.
Ok, My first time in the preview server and pretty much my first time in the forums. This is gonna be my personal view of HR and why we have so much anger. PLEASE REMEMBER PERSONAL!!
I am also not the best player out there or even close, but I am an average player who happily sits at 3rd in damage when playing with similar GS CW's and GWF's and I hope this is what the Devs wanna hear from.
First of all I wanna thank the Devs for the response earlier. Knowing that you are working on the build and are actually listening made a massive difference. I definitely felt like the HR class was being ignored, but knowing you are working on it and discussing where you actually want us to sit in the game makes me know you do actually listened and are working on it! Dont need a lot of info but a " we are discussing it" was great! So thank you.
Secondly to all the peeps who are coming on and saying "THE CLASS IS DEAD". This is not helping anyone. Why is the class dead? Cause of split shot nerf? Why not explain why we feel like there is a problem in the build. This will help the devs put us where they feel they want us to be.
As a member who has finally found his niche with the HR I decided I would post. I usually only do PVE and am part of a guild so are posting from that perspective. I have a purely DPS build that has been setup for ranged. I obviously use the melee (and those that cannot or refuse to use their extra 3 encounters should not really be commenting as they dont know the HR class. Again happy to get flamed) I also have definitely not spent enough time playing around in the preview shard to give massive amounts of info, but the few minuets I did was to just judge my current build. I will play around with the new path when I have a few hours.
Everyone is complaining about split shot and the nerf. Let me tell the devs why seeing nobody has actually explained it... A LOT of HR tend to play alone, its VERY difficult to get into groups. (Im gonna get spammed but 80% of the HR's do not try actually play the build they just wanna get top damage and cause way to much aggro for themselves and draw WAY to many mobs....) We have almost no damage besides split shot and aimed shot, aimed shot takes a LOT of skill to get off when playing alone. This also relies on crit which is not 75% + chance (like my TR which was my first main) once the first aimed has gone off we then have to switch strategies and now need to take out mobs (remember we are alone). For this we HAVE to use split shot and foxes. We have nothing else. Our melee are terribly underpowered and take forever to implement (besides fox's). Please remember that this game is massively focused on a large amount of mobs. 1v1 HR is great if you know how to dodge. I personally dont wanna spend 15 min killing a low level monster while everyone else is killing hundreds. That might just be me.
Most of the HR builds will be built around using ranged. Its the first ranged char and the only melee ones you will see will be pvp. We are too squishy to run into a group of mobs. We die WAY too fast.
As for aggro, learn to control it..... It took me ages, but I have no problem with aggro. As with every build it takes a while to get used to. If you are gonna spam split shot when you are in a party with similar specs you are gonna get aggro-ed up the wall..... This is the problem with 90% of HR and why everyone hates them.... (again happy to get flamed). As with EVERY boss, change skills for 1-1 instead of AOE and you wont get mobbed.... (Yes our ranged 1-1 encounters are terrible and im not getting into that at this point).
Again, the game is worked with massive amounts of mobs, hence why the CW class tends to do fantastic. We have no other class besides GWF and GF (which nobody can play with cause everyone wants to kill everything instead of have a strategy.... Leave mobs to GF and you will be fine... But another matter). HR was the first class that helped with clearing mobs IN DUNGEON!! Boss fights they cause way too much aggro and should not touch a mob.... (again personal opinion)
It would be great to have the opinion of the Devs of where they want the HR class to stand, as we are a bit confused. Are they support only? (this will disappoint me as all other classes have builds you can play with and I really dont wanna play as support). (Are they hybrids only)? (can we build a 2nd class that has AOE that can equal CW)?
The one point I do agree with is the getting into groups. I do hope the Devs take note of that. My TR was put on a shelf as they are good and definitely help in a dungeon, but happily admit I would rather run with CW's. Would be great to hear of a way to fix that and dont envy them trying to figure it out cause I sure cant!
Its now late and need to go sleep. I will definitely try some new HR builds tomorrow, but they do not really interest me as I do prefer a DPS and it seems the HR is being pushed towards support class. Not a problem if this is the way the Devs wish, but do wish it had been stated in the beginning so I didnt try the build.
think of test as a constantly changing alternate dimension where nothing is tangible or real for any point of length of time because its not.
when the smoke clears the pve dungeons creatures and even stat scaling on equips should be changed as well to make up for the changes to things like power and classes.
On live the Ranger is the most balanced class out of all the other classes. And thats with a good portion of thier skills being bad.
What needs to happen is all those skills that are not being used or bad to be adjusted. ALL powers from the stormwarden paragon. All thier buffs.
Thier at wills need not be touched. thats where most of their damage is from (which you can tell by thier design, since almost all of our powers are utility powers) And we need to have some kind of ability to burst when we need it, which Fox Shift provides.
how is it fair every class gets to have some kind of burst (in alot more than one skill). But we cant even have a single burst ability (fox shift ) to burst with?
On live the Ranger is the most balanced class out of all the other classes. And thats with a good portion of thier skills being bad.
What needs to happen is all those skills that are not being used or bad to be adjusted. ALL powers from the stormwarden paragon. All thier buffs.
Thier at wills need not be touched. thats where most of their damage is from (which you can tell by thier design, since almost all of our powers are utility powers) And we need to have some kind of ability to burst when we need it, which Fox Shift provides.
how is it fair every class gets to have some kind of burst (in alot more than one skill). But we cant even have a single burst ability (fox shift ) to burst with?
yeah i agree and aimed shot alone being our burst isnt a good thing. split shot is the only at will i would say rework down though not to this extent but a bit because its not normal by any means live or on test.
and put others up because currently no one seemingly but me uses electric shot i rarely even see it with other hrs even with clear the ground slotted.
rangers have a stereotype and that stereotype is splitshot it shouldnt be what we are only known for and it shouldnt be the only option to get paingiver if thats your thing especially because other classes hate it because of aggro.
Honestly. Stop replying to this thread. I'm sure the devs are as sick as I am that every other post (literally) for pages is your opinion. Your endless stream of replies are making this thread a tedious read, and there is some very good feedback and very good information that your posts are masking.
I'm honestly not trying to be rude, just very frank. Summarize your opinion in 1 or 2 posts and walk away. I promise that the thread will not go unread without you replying every 2 minutes.
Honestly. Stop replying to this thread. I'm sure the devs are as sick as I am that every other post (literally) for pages is your opinion. Your endless stream of replies are making this thread a tedious read, and there is some very good feedback and very good information that your posts are masking.
He's right, 19 Posts so far to this thread alone.
Played Preview - Nerf is to high for Split Shot. Perhaps make the rain of arrows area affect bigger with a shorter cool down and make aimed shot fire when interrupted at whatever level of damage it's currently at.
way the content has been created for PVE, it almost required us to slot hard hitting AOE. and yes, it shattered aggro if used as a spam skill, unfortunately, shooting one arrow at a single target once every 4 seconds just is not a viable option when 20 targets are running around intent on killing you. boss fights are about controlling and killing adds fast, that is what split shot allowed us to do. no other skill in our kit can accomplish this.
really if your solo play, or teamed up, you have to be equipped to handle the content. that is what split shot gave us. now its gone, the fights have not changed. so, what can be done to give the proper tools to accomplish this? all the utility in the world is not gonna be fun if you spend 3 or 4 times longer trying to kill something while trying to dodge run and hide from 2 or 3 other critters.
we became reliant on split shot because it was our best means to combat large mobs. the content has become about "how fast you clear a dungeon." therefore, tactics that might otherwise benefit a HR (like careful pulls)are not being used in an effort to clear fast.
HR feels like a class that needs time, and thought to be truly effective, choosing engagements, angles, range. he is about understanding the battle field.
the way the content is, its all about multiple target fights. thats why split shot became our go to, it was reliable, and efficient and our only aoe at will.
i think the content needs some changes more so than trying to balance classes at this point. as long as the game revolves around huge number of adds, and speed and less about thoughtful combat, the HR, and to an extent TR's will be at a disadvantage in party combat.
rewards go to who can fly through content fastest, not to thoughtful, smart play. split shot, gave us a power to at least help with speed clears thus opening a slot in a party for us sometimes.
its not that HR's are bad, it is more they do not fit the content as designed, and do not fit the meta of speed runs.
This probably won't happen, but what if they scrapped Battlehoned and Cruel Recovery all together? I'm just throwing ideas out there but what about these:
Class Feature 1: 3/6/10% Damage and +100/200/300 Control Bonus to encounter and daily powers that have a control component.
Class Feature 2: +100/+200/+300 Combat Advantage bonus in melee and gain combat advantage 15/30/45% of normal effectiveness even at range.
I don't have names for them, but they both seem to fit the Pathfinder theme, like the first one fits with the trap and ambush theme a little bit and the second is about finding advantageous position.
fine ill just post info was what i wanted to do in the first place. I was just trying to help out, you took as insult and wasting space i guess; wasnt meant to. Sorry for multi posts they can just remove the ones without feedback.
Ambush's stealth fades while aiming Split Shot not when it is fired it does the same with Careful Attack without damaging its not an attack until a skill damages it shouldnt pop you out of stealth because you are at that point studying or aiming at them not attacking.
Teamwork fires at roughly the same speed (slower) as rapid shot and does about the same damage but it interrupts itself to fire only one arrow make it look and act so that it hits as a combo keep the speed and it should be about right. It feels kind of clunky and it would stop the weird animation of it. The first hit on a target should mark and any others should just attack unless not marked.
if the marking hit is a crit then the heal from the pack will crit also great that its a walk over.
The heal pack heal is also small like the damage at rank 1 the damage and heal are almost the same at 176 normal to 300 crit at level 35. so i suppose if it were live it would hit 1-2.5k at 60 on crit and the heal would likely do the same for the entire team.
which would work with oak skin and the support powers but everyone already figured that.
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tajah23Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 32
edited March 2014
split shot was TOO strong, yes. 45% nerf is way over the top, though. I'd go so far as to say 25-30% would feel about right. This would actually help with aggro control, but stop the HR from one-shotting groups of trash mobs.
Aside from Bear Trap, I've not seen any usefulness whatsoever out of the Pathfinder paragon. Even at that, Bear Trap's limitations (small range & lack of mobility/windups) render it basically useless in pvp. Increase the range (and that of Rain of Arrows while we're at it - that skill SHOULD be fine, but the minuscule area leaves it ineffective)
For a hybrid class, the decision needs to be made about hybrid WHAT. Is it a buffer, ranged nuker, or melee dps? Continually adding poor choices along the paragons is limiting our options, and instead of playing as hybrids, we're all forced into the melee role because the other skills aren't competitive.
Bug: Pathfinder's Action - The Deflection bonus of this skill says it get 5% per rank. This is not the case, as each rank increase of Pathfinder's Action only adds 3% to the Deflection bonus. Additionally, Rank 1 of this skill gives 4% bonus deflection which may or may not be the intended amount given that the per-rank increases are bugged.
Comments
I tried Sharandar (the intro before you actually go into Sharandar) - first with my HR on Live, afterwards on Preview.
On Live I managed ok. On Preview it was very hard. I hardly managed. The encounter skills' cooldowns are too long to be of much help.
And split shot... well it's all been said.
You've nerfed a fun to play class (talking PvE only) into oblivion.
From the very beginning I wanted to play a HR, it's one of my favourite classes (Mages are the other one) in all games. I waited patiently until the HR was brought into the game and was happy to be able to play it. I must say it's very sad to see what you've done to it.
Please reconsider... if you nerf split shot give us some good encounters with shorter cooldowns or don't nerf split shot - at best not at all, but at the very least not as bad.
The Nerf to Split shot is ridiculous! I can see dropping it 25% at most, especially since all the other at wills are useless (exception being aimed shot but with the activation time and how easily it is interrupted it is hardly useful as an at will). Rapid shot is barely passable and is only useful because you can just hold the button and let it machine gun (slowly). Electric shot does pathetic damage and its "suppose" AOE effect hasn't worked once for me (or for that matter anyone I have ever seen use it). The new at will for the second paragon path is just silly at best.
And look, another daily power for HR that only has a melee component, not a ranged. I still think the entire "switch from melee to range" mechanic for the HR is a waste of time, mine has been 60 for a few months and I have never gone into melee mode on him the entire time he has existed (except accidently when I hit the wrong button and then usually I am dead instantly). If I wanted a melee character I would just switch to my TR, HR should NEVER have been anything but ranged, dritz whateverhis name is be damned.
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this is exactly why this needs to happen because people dont use the encounters or melee at all unless spec'ed for it just split shot which seems to be all anyone cares about which makes the class boring, powerful but boring.
And its not real. these skills are at thier bare minimum for this test cycle.
2. Remove the target requirement for Careful attack. This is the Pathfinders version of Clear the ground it should have the same function. Maybe this is asking a lot of an at will but hey it is what it is. Also why is this not generating action points....
3. Allow temp hit points to stack up to 10. Once again this would make it worth a slot for PVE still not good enough to slot it for PVP.
4. Get rid of Dev's choice Fox shift or Bear trap and give us an execute ability. I give a choice here because let's be honest fox shift is no longer worth it for melee and we need an execute ability badly. They can even remake Fox shift to become a single target nuke that we need. However bear trap is just all around bad. Bad damage and bad mechanic small AOE just nothing good at all about it. We are the only class without an execute ability. EVEN CLERICS have an execute Ability via there dailies.
The big thing with this to me is the supplies package should be more distinguishable from normal loot. I suggest a square like package that floats off the ground about waist level (at least for taller humanoids). This isn't as useful solo, but it's a decent replacement for rapid shot in groups, perhaps for nature rangers.
I found teaming this up with hawk shot was alright but I have to give up the mobility from marauders escape/rush. Solo, that's a pretty heavy price to pay and I still kill things much faster with normal layout than with the pathfinder skills/augments.
I got a kinda of rhythm with the new pathfinder set killing packs in the dread ring. It's different, but can work. Basically you lay out the bear traps before you engage in front of a melee mob that will rush you. Then I'd ambush, rain of arrows, the caster while trying to keep moving with the splitshot, then ambush to get a break real quick and then rain of arrows again, move.. picking up healing packs from Hunters Teamwork.
Is it fun, I don't know, it's different and not nearly as effective as just sticking with my old skills even nerfed, at least solo. Given the increased difficulty in Icewind Dale I experienced, trying to use pathfinder skills is probably terrible there.
Bear trap might be useful in pvp or group pve if it could trigger if it hits in enemy while traveling through the air rather than having to actually land on the ground, deploy, and then get the enemy to go over it. Plus throwing open bear traps as an attacks sounds awesome.
Ya, this is certainly the best, but I'd rather have the nerfed Storm Step and Twin Blades than anything Pathfinder offers.
At-Will - Hunter's Teamwork/Careful Attack - I think most people will simply skip this at-will, in open world anyone passing by seems capable of picking those drops (at least I never found any drop myself from targets marked) and the ranged at-will that can only be used once on one mob till it dies is hardly useful. Melee at-wills are all weak attacks and this one is no exception.
Encounter - Ambush/Bear Trap - Ambush bonus dmg boost is too easily lost and should NEVER depend on the character moving since it contradicts the need of stealth element of this skill. IF someone stealths, it's either to get closer to target or to move away from the enemy. Bear trap could use 3 charges instead of 2 or shorter cooldown and just one charge. It's targetting system mimicking DC's Daunting Light is very unhandy for a melee skill, I think it should be a fast drop trap at the HR's location instead. Also, it looks big small for a BEAR trap.
Daily - Slasher mark - From the description this skill seems rather useless and a big waste of daily power, I decided not to test it. I guess it's supposed to aid the tank at DD boss, but 100% AP is way too much sacrifice, imho.
As for the older skills changes:
- Split shot nerf is too big. It was the best at-will just because Aimed Shot is so easily interrupted, the rest almost do no damage at all and encounter attacks have long cooldown (except Hindering Shot with 3 charges, which is why I prefer it over Constricting/Binding Arrows, especially as it does decent damage too).
- Fox Shift is acceptable and remains one of the hardest hitting melee skills HRs have.
- Thorn Strike is still mediocre attack at best. The damage gain from target's lower health is barely noticeable still.
- Forest Meditation - I could never see much use for this skill, except maybe healing outside the fight, but even then pots would still be faster and waste no AP...
ONLY against 3 targets that are next to eachother, against a single target even marauders does more dmg which is nonsense since it also gives you insane utility.
My main is HR, i downloaded preview content as fast as i could to try out, but right now, i dont even feel playing there anymore... HR is really dead on preview. There is nothing else to give feedback, all have been said already on this topic.
I'm certainly not the greatest player in the game, but I run with a very good team and have worked hard to get my HR to keep up with them in damage and still really don't. But the quote above explains how I feel exactly. I'm a ranged HR, and feel at this point that I've put a lot of work into this character with no positive end result, because one of the ways I contributed well in both PVE and PVP is this at will, and now it has been rendered impotent.
i will be the first to admit i do not know very much about 4th addition D&d, have not looked at the rules, but i do know D&D in general. i also have a fair amount of experience with MMO's.
right now, the hunter ranger does not feel much like a hunter, or a ranger. our abilities are all over the spectrum, from buffs, to debuffs, ranged, to melee, agility/mobility to using our abilities negating that mobility. we have very little reliable consistent damage, we are typically pretty squishy.
if one sits down and reads through all of our abilities, you start asking our selves like i have been asking, what are we? assassins, 2-weapon fighter, or ranger. are we back line support or artillery?
i personally feel, that our powers need to be streamlined, and condensed,
for instance hindering shot and constricting arrow, so close to being the same skill with very minor differences, both apply a CC effect, both apply some damage, just constricting is by far the better of the 2 in terms of both the damage and CC effect, so i suggest deleting hindering shot; and making a new ability to replace.
thorn ward, rain of arrows, and virtually the same, both are target area abilities that do damage, just have different animations and close to the same area of effect, and BOTH are to easy to walk out of thus rendering them wasted.
hunters teamwork, and quick shot both about the same damage, both "slow" animations not really quick at all, and root you in place for the animation. thus defeating the concept of popshot. and the drops from team work rarely drop to make it worth a slot at all, neither skill very useful, low damage, slow animations and not being able to move during the animation creates problems when your trying to be agile and continue laying our damage.
split shot, was our only reliable AOE ranged attack, yet if its not doing damage, then its kinda mute to slot it.
i like ambush, only moving accidentally renders ambush part useless, and using aimed shot i loose stealth at the start of the "aimed shot" animation, so the shot does not fire because the moment stealth is dropped the mobs hit you and cancel it.
aimed shot has good damage, but you can only use it to open an engagement the animation is way to long, and is so easy to interrupt that you cannot use it more than once.
forest ghost and forest mediation, are great, i would not change them, they work, and are good utility.
i do not like hawk shot, it feels like aimed shot with average less damage, but on an encounter.
cruel recovery, not really that helpful, when these mobs chunk you for 1/3 to 1/2 your hit points per hit, "1%" bonus hit points isn't gonna save you or help you unless you spec for alot of HP, which is hard to do on a HR.
battlehoned, nice idea, but a duration of 4 seconds is not gonna regen enough to be effective or helpful. and when we are "attacked" well considering we just got chunked for 1/3 hit points on a hit, that regen is not enough.
pathfinder's action, this is actually the worst ability in my opinion, first the "boost" is not noticeable enough to justify slotting it.
now, in my opinion,
the HR is actually a rather slow and immobile class, a determined GWF, and TR will catch you even with all our "mobility" powers. a CW will CC lock you. if we turn to try and kite and shoot, we are doing nothing but ensuring our own death because slow animations.
think about how fights unfold, and play out, combat is a fluid, moving encounter, nobody stands still unless you are CC'd. yet, our at wills is like placing a Crowd control on ourselves. stops any movement, and fluid feel for the HR.
our area of effect powers, "rain of arrows", "thorn ward" to easy to just walk out of, small area of effect, DOT damage is kinda of useless on a moving battle field.
final note, concerning balancing
each class should have clear paths for specializations, with unique abilities that both enhance a team, yet doesn't create a crutch for the team to lean on. that is why i think HR's are in a very bad position, we do no offer anything that really enhances a team. even if all of our powers are buffed, it still will not offer much for a team for dungeons and other epic encounters. it is kind of clear now, that we are not a dps class, it is kind of clear we are not a control class, it is kind of clear we are not a buff/debuff class.
we have
CW, a ranged cc machine
gf, tank, durable class with decent team buffs, and debuffs melee
dc, heals and buffs, ranged
gwf, tanky dps with incredible mobility, and aoe specs, melee
tr, single target high dps burst melee, and durable to boot.
now with the HR, logic would fill ranged dps, only its not. we have a lot of skills, that can lead in a hell of a lot of different builds, but really no build is gonna surpass what other classes can bring. before moving forward in balancing and re imaging the class a proper path needs to be set, a goal of what the HR needs/should be.
as far as feedback on the new paragon path, interesting but what is the goal?
This is why I suggested they take away the daily use requirement. It is the only way this tree COULD be possibly viable. As a tank Melee HR every extra deflect helps. Even in small amounts. Other classes have similar they can slot without the crazy daily use requirement. As melee with all the deflect we get 13 percent just from sitting in melee stance. Add this to it and it would be pretty sweet.
The rest of the tree feels blah. Yet if they did just that one thing... It MIGHT hold viable. The only other thing we would be missing is a replacement for clear the ground. As for clear the ground you do not even need a target. You can spam your AOE at will with the hopes of hitting a stealthy.
yeah the daily requirement for path action is wierd it should just be passive for slotting it trs and gwf have this even clerics have something like this when they heal that is passive just from doing what they do.
and if not we cant use disruptive but once every 9 seconds maybe get rid of the cool downs for dailies since no one else has them that way we have enough ap to use what the situation demands and we can use it when ever we need to because none of the dailies are strong. that way were never with out the effect as long as we have ap and even the effects arent incredibly impressive so this isnt a big deal. please let us know a spit ball duration of testing current build it would relieve some stress.
defense, movement speed, and deflect also is important for any ranger too its why mine does not die like others yet still has the power to blast or buff or fight on through pain.
when thinking of the balancing, and re imaging of the class or classes
please remeber we have time, and astral diomonds already invested into our enchants, if its gonna require us to respec those, many people might get upset, with the loss of energy we have invested in the enchants.
just simply no class deffinition, no class derection makes it hard to know how to build an effeint HR. there are alot of powers that seam to have requirements based on other powers which in turn have feats that boost this or that power.
makes it confusing switching screens reading through feats, and powers, trying to figure out what powers boosted by what other power boosted by what feats.
not very streamlined, and can easily gimp yourself in your build.
and you're right its not streamlined you can easily destroy a gf or gwf or a tr too especially if you dont understand how they all work together you cant focus on damage damage is gimped focus on surviving on test.
im not saying this to anyone in particular but testing a game is not like being a gamer and being a gamer is not like being a tester not in the least. read any college video game testers manual it will tell you the same thing.
a gamer can only become a tester or stay a gamer or try to do both but its frustrating to do both. its why im focusing efforts on improving the class instead of playing live so all ideas can be approached.
focus on how to streamline feats if you have a problem with it then post it or make up your own tool tips maybe they will use that instead of thier usual crypticness.
im going to be focusing on effects that powers cause and how to use them together and compare while testing whats infront of us.
theyve already told us that they dont currently know the path like they want to so this itself means we got time for the mod drop and time to influence that very same drop.
I am also not the best player out there or even close, but I am an average player who happily sits at 3rd in damage when playing with similar GS CW's and GWF's and I hope this is what the Devs wanna hear from.
First of all I wanna thank the Devs for the response earlier. Knowing that you are working on the build and are actually listening made a massive difference. I definitely felt like the HR class was being ignored, but knowing you are working on it and discussing where you actually want us to sit in the game makes me know you do actually listened and are working on it! Dont need a lot of info but a " we are discussing it" was great! So thank you.
Secondly to all the peeps who are coming on and saying "THE CLASS IS DEAD". This is not helping anyone. Why is the class dead? Cause of split shot nerf? Why not explain why we feel like there is a problem in the build. This will help the devs put us where they feel they want us to be.
As a member who has finally found his niche with the HR I decided I would post. I usually only do PVE and am part of a guild so are posting from that perspective. I have a purely DPS build that has been setup for ranged. I obviously use the melee (and those that cannot or refuse to use their extra 3 encounters should not really be commenting as they dont know the HR class. Again happy to get flamed) I also have definitely not spent enough time playing around in the preview shard to give massive amounts of info, but the few minuets I did was to just judge my current build. I will play around with the new path when I have a few hours.
Everyone is complaining about split shot and the nerf. Let me tell the devs why seeing nobody has actually explained it... A LOT of HR tend to play alone, its VERY difficult to get into groups. (Im gonna get spammed but 80% of the HR's do not try actually play the build they just wanna get top damage and cause way to much aggro for themselves and draw WAY to many mobs....) We have almost no damage besides split shot and aimed shot, aimed shot takes a LOT of skill to get off when playing alone. This also relies on crit which is not 75% + chance (like my TR which was my first main) once the first aimed has gone off we then have to switch strategies and now need to take out mobs (remember we are alone). For this we HAVE to use split shot and foxes. We have nothing else. Our melee are terribly underpowered and take forever to implement (besides fox's). Please remember that this game is massively focused on a large amount of mobs. 1v1 HR is great if you know how to dodge. I personally dont wanna spend 15 min killing a low level monster while everyone else is killing hundreds. That might just be me.
Most of the HR builds will be built around using ranged. Its the first ranged char and the only melee ones you will see will be pvp. We are too squishy to run into a group of mobs. We die WAY too fast.
As for aggro, learn to control it..... It took me ages, but I have no problem with aggro. As with every build it takes a while to get used to. If you are gonna spam split shot when you are in a party with similar specs you are gonna get aggro-ed up the wall..... This is the problem with 90% of HR and why everyone hates them.... (again happy to get flamed). As with EVERY boss, change skills for 1-1 instead of AOE and you wont get mobbed.... (Yes our ranged 1-1 encounters are terrible and im not getting into that at this point).
Again, the game is worked with massive amounts of mobs, hence why the CW class tends to do fantastic. We have no other class besides GWF and GF (which nobody can play with cause everyone wants to kill everything instead of have a strategy.... Leave mobs to GF and you will be fine... But another matter). HR was the first class that helped with clearing mobs IN DUNGEON!! Boss fights they cause way too much aggro and should not touch a mob.... (again personal opinion)
It would be great to have the opinion of the Devs of where they want the HR class to stand, as we are a bit confused. Are they support only? (this will disappoint me as all other classes have builds you can play with and I really dont wanna play as support). (Are they hybrids only)? (can we build a 2nd class that has AOE that can equal CW)?
The one point I do agree with is the getting into groups. I do hope the Devs take note of that. My TR was put on a shelf as they are good and definitely help in a dungeon, but happily admit I would rather run with CW's. Would be great to hear of a way to fix that and dont envy them trying to figure it out cause I sure cant!
Its now late and need to go sleep. I will definitely try some new HR builds tomorrow, but they do not really interest me as I do prefer a DPS and it seems the HR is being pushed towards support class. Not a problem if this is the way the Devs wish, but do wish it had been stated in the beginning so I didnt try the build.
As usual have fun and enjoy your gaming!!!
when the smoke clears the pve dungeons creatures and even stat scaling on equips should be changed as well to make up for the changes to things like power and classes.
What needs to happen is all those skills that are not being used or bad to be adjusted. ALL powers from the stormwarden paragon. All thier buffs.
Thier at wills need not be touched. thats where most of their damage is from (which you can tell by thier design, since almost all of our powers are utility powers) And we need to have some kind of ability to burst when we need it, which Fox Shift provides.
how is it fair every class gets to have some kind of burst (in alot more than one skill). But we cant even have a single burst ability (fox shift ) to burst with?
stag heart isnt bad where its at maybe a slight reduction in cooldown maybe even 1 second would be kosher.
and boars hide is fine where its at too for its usefulness.
maybe see how roots does with 1 second more.
yeah i agree and aimed shot alone being our burst isnt a good thing. split shot is the only at will i would say rework down though not to this extent but a bit because its not normal by any means live or on test.
and put others up because currently no one seemingly but me uses electric shot i rarely even see it with other hrs even with clear the ground slotted.
rangers have a stereotype and that stereotype is splitshot it shouldnt be what we are only known for and it shouldnt be the only option to get paingiver if thats your thing especially because other classes hate it because of aggro.
Honestly. Stop replying to this thread. I'm sure the devs are as sick as I am that every other post (literally) for pages is your opinion. Your endless stream of replies are making this thread a tedious read, and there is some very good feedback and very good information that your posts are masking.
I'm honestly not trying to be rude, just very frank. Summarize your opinion in 1 or 2 posts and walk away. I promise that the thread will not go unread without you replying every 2 minutes.
He's right, 19 Posts so far to this thread alone.
Played Preview - Nerf is to high for Split Shot. Perhaps make the rain of arrows area affect bigger with a shorter cool down and make aimed shot fire when interrupted at whatever level of damage it's currently at.
really if your solo play, or teamed up, you have to be equipped to handle the content. that is what split shot gave us. now its gone, the fights have not changed. so, what can be done to give the proper tools to accomplish this? all the utility in the world is not gonna be fun if you spend 3 or 4 times longer trying to kill something while trying to dodge run and hide from 2 or 3 other critters.
we became reliant on split shot because it was our best means to combat large mobs. the content has become about "how fast you clear a dungeon." therefore, tactics that might otherwise benefit a HR (like careful pulls)are not being used in an effort to clear fast.
HR feels like a class that needs time, and thought to be truly effective, choosing engagements, angles, range. he is about understanding the battle field.
the way the content is, its all about multiple target fights. thats why split shot became our go to, it was reliable, and efficient and our only aoe at will.
i think the content needs some changes more so than trying to balance classes at this point. as long as the game revolves around huge number of adds, and speed and less about thoughtful combat, the HR, and to an extent TR's will be at a disadvantage in party combat.
rewards go to who can fly through content fastest, not to thoughtful, smart play. split shot, gave us a power to at least help with speed clears thus opening a slot in a party for us sometimes.
its not that HR's are bad, it is more they do not fit the content as designed, and do not fit the meta of speed runs.
Class Feature 1: 3/6/10% Damage and +100/200/300 Control Bonus to encounter and daily powers that have a control component.
Class Feature 2: +100/+200/+300 Combat Advantage bonus in melee and gain combat advantage 15/30/45% of normal effectiveness even at range.
I don't have names for them, but they both seem to fit the Pathfinder theme, like the first one fits with the trap and ambush theme a little bit and the second is about finding advantageous position.
class feature would be pretty cool just wouldnt that open it for SW line too?
Ambush's stealth fades while aiming Split Shot not when it is fired it does the same with Careful Attack without damaging its not an attack until a skill damages it shouldnt pop you out of stealth because you are at that point studying or aiming at them not attacking.
Teamwork fires at roughly the same speed (slower) as rapid shot and does about the same damage but it interrupts itself to fire only one arrow make it look and act so that it hits as a combo keep the speed and it should be about right. It feels kind of clunky and it would stop the weird animation of it. The first hit on a target should mark and any others should just attack unless not marked.
if the marking hit is a crit then the heal from the pack will crit also great that its a walk over.
The heal pack heal is also small like the damage at rank 1 the damage and heal are almost the same at 176 normal to 300 crit at level 35. so i suppose if it were live it would hit 1-2.5k at 60 on crit and the heal would likely do the same for the entire team.
which would work with oak skin and the support powers but everyone already figured that.
Aside from Bear Trap, I've not seen any usefulness whatsoever out of the Pathfinder paragon. Even at that, Bear Trap's limitations (small range & lack of mobility/windups) render it basically useless in pvp. Increase the range (and that of Rain of Arrows while we're at it - that skill SHOULD be fine, but the minuscule area leaves it ineffective)
For a hybrid class, the decision needs to be made about hybrid WHAT. Is it a buffer, ranged nuker, or melee dps? Continually adding poor choices along the paragons is limiting our options, and instead of playing as hybrids, we're all forced into the melee role because the other skills aren't competitive.