Yes the ones with ~35k life. Even if they are too bad to dodge my full combo with daily does like 25% of their life. Its like they have 100% deflect. Even GWFs with full rank 10s die 3x faster than a hr.
I have rank 7s, a lesser armor enchant, and a regular weapon enchant (plaguefire). I've played against some of the best HRs in the game, and have not experienced what you're talking about. With the nature paragon tree nerfed due to healing depression, I have not fought an HR that was too tanky for me to kill. I can't fathom you're having problems against HRs when in rank 7s I have 40.5k HP and probably twice the deflect an HR can max out on.
Go open another thread, this isn't the thread to complain about HRs.
Deep Gash does not stack. Neither does Student of the Sword.
Both of them are intended to either be on the target or not on the target. Some of the ramping up style play they had has been moved down into the capstone feat in the Destroyer tree (Destroyer's Purpose). And SoS shouldn't really be compared to Assailing Force (15% resistance debuff while affected by Conduit of Ice) seeing as Student of the Sword is a T1 paragon feat as opposed to a capstone paragon feat
Wizards will be getting looked at eventually as well, but with some changes to stats we *had* to fix Deep Gash right now and felt this was a really good time to improve the Destroyer Tree and make being a DPS GWF feel like more of a commitment.
A good set of changes if it does what it is supposed to with GWFs now having to make trade-offs between DPS and survivability in PvP. The only thing I am worried about is that with these changes, GWF damage in PvE will be reduced which will make increase the already huge difference between CW's effectiveness in PvE compared to every other class to a ridiculous amount.
Any chance of separating PvP and PvE powers as this would enable a lot better tweaking of all classes to be viable, even desirable in both PvP and PvE?
why are you making us choose between damage or survivability. there is no middle ground anymore
The sentinel pvp gear has almost no offensive stats whatsoever. You cant mix and match pieces of destroyer without losing set bonuses.
General consensus is that GWFs are balanced after Healing Depression. This is really a double wammy with a major nerf to both offense and defense. Sent survivability isn't that great anymore to go and essentially give us no offensive ability between gear and spec
I don't trust the changes to student of the sword. Debuffs in this game are a lie. Before it was giving a flat damage increase of 5%
I don't know what the new changes will do but I hope it doesn't mess with DPS too much
These changes might have made sense before the pvp patch, but not anymore.
If your going to nerf offense this much for sents then fine but I want more survivability in return.
ok, about "Destroyer's Purpose", the system stacks will be based on the number of targets i hit using a "x" power or the general damage of this "x" power? I am one of 3 users of reaping strike in this game and I feel great difficulty in accumulating stacks using this Atwill (imagine 20x stacks). And let's be honest, 2ap is not a desirable bonus for executioner style (maybe a speed up when unstoppable would bring better synergy).
second question: what is the actual projection of gwf damage in comparative terms.
Even GWFs with full rank 10s die 3x faster than a hr.
What? I play a lot of PvP, especially since the patch, and have never seen one of those creatures. They are definitely shifty, do a lot of damage, and generally hard to hit or catch. But they always are squishy like TRs or CWs, even those stacking defense, deflect, and/or hp.
Yes the ones with ~35k life. Even if they are too bad to dodge my full combo with daily does like 25% of their life. Its like they have 100% deflect. Even GWFs with full rank 10s die 3x faster than a hr.
because of buged encounter which give them damage imune this mod will fix this encounter
From what i'm reading i feel like: Instigator now is useless, you can even delete that tree. Sentinel pvp only, none will ever set foot in pve now.
Deep Gash was 60% of a GWF overall dmg, so you cut that off and gave Destroyers (only) aprox 30% dmg, but that 30% applies now to the 40% so a 12% dmg increase. If i'm not missing something GWF gets the dmg cut in half . I have a deja-vu feeling of module 1 and now we dont even have animation cancel. So GWF will be the same as GF :cool:
I do agree that deep gash did a bit too much.. but this is way too much Going to play my CW from now on, since it seems the only class that is stable...
From what i'm reading i feel like: Instigator now is useless, you can even delete that tree. Sentinel pvp only, none will ever set foot in pve now.
Deep Gash was 60% of a GWF overall dmg, so you cut that off and gave Destroyers (only) aprox 30% dmg, but that 30% applies now to the 40% so a 12% dmg increase. If i'm not missing something GWF gets the dmg cut in half . I have a deja-vu feeling of module 1 and now we dont even have animation cancel. So GWF will be the same as GF :cool:
I do agree that deep gash did a bit too much.. but this is way too much Going to play my CW from now on, since it seems the only class that is stable...
I am not sure the 60% figure for Deep Gash is correct (at least for my non-BiS GWF) but it certainly is currently a fair chunk of GWF damage, and my feeling is that the overall damage of the GWF is definitely reduced, probably considerably.
And of course, your closing statement is right - with these changes the only viable class in PvE is likely to be Control Wizards...
Yes the ones with ~35k life. Even if they are too bad to dodge my full combo with daily does like 25% of their life. Its like they have 100% deflect. Even GWFs with full rank 10s die 3x faster than a hr.
HR can stack 105% base mitigation in pvp so even 30% Arm pen will only take them to the 75% mitigation hardcap + they can have quite a bit of dodge and hps if speced right, ive played a sentinel since launch i see only way im going to be a viable tank now (loved IV poping up gave me options otehr then sure strike to hold agro) is if i take 21 in destroyer and 10 in sent i cant see any reson to take Student of sword anymore as its not a team buff ill miss having more utility to partys then pure, and substancialy lower dps then a CW at that but i may still be able to provide some tanking, not that most partys need that if they have enuff CW, i dont see any of these changes making optimal party not be 5 CW for all content, which is a shame, also ill miss being a sent gwf, only place i can see sent still being viable is in pvp were its prone locks and personal tankyness thats the premium. also similar geared gwf to mine using destroyer sm already do 16mill damage in a tos run were i do 8mill already quite hard to hold there agro so i was already thinging of going destroyer but im atached to being a tank rather then toping paingiver. (im all ancient gear) others with beter then rank 8 enchants and perfect wepon enchants will do 20k damage a run and reduce me dow nto about 6k, already as for combat advantage from instigator any SM spec gwf already has that from wepon master strike so only of use if your a IV and well i dont see many IV not taking battle trample atleast why else would u take the tank spec if your not going to take extra agro skill, so thats goign to leave a very small miority of gwf that decide to use IV and instigator a very much larger portion that use destroyer which is already 3-1 to sents or instigators most of them will go sword master cause its a beter dps spec due to extra hits on multi targets. even tanks like me once mod 3 goes live youll find runing destroyer capstone just jewlry will be a tad difernt but i prettymuch guarentee only 1 in 10 gwf wont be a destroyer in endgame epic content within a month of this releasing
Greetings Adventurers!
With some changes coming to the way Power interacts with player powers, we thought this was a good time to fix some issues with the Great Weapon Fighter and try to better define his Destroyer and Sentinel trees.
Overview
Deep Gash and Student of the Sword were both fairly problematic feats, being that they were very easy to reach, and Deep Gash was receiving way more damage than was ever intended. In some cases it could make up nearly 30% of the total damage output to some Great Weapon Fighters. Given this we wanted to fix this bug and move a lot of that damage deeper down the Destroyer tree to make them a much stronger DPS presence and provide them a more clear play cycle that rewarded smart use of powers and Unstoppable. To accomplish that goal we have made the following changes.
Feats: Steely Defense: This feat now correctly grants 4/8/12/16/20% of your Defense as Power.
Feats: Deep Gash: This feat no longer gains additional damage from the power that applies it.
Feats: Deep Gash: This feat can no longer crit. This feat now applies a bleed that ticks for 4/8/12/16/20% of your Power (up from 3/6/9/12/15%).
Feats: Deep Gash: This power no longer ticks immediately upon application. New applications will not reset the tick timer. Additionally this DoT now lasts 6 seconds (up from 5). It still ticks 6 times total.
In what exact cases were it making up 30% overall damage? If it's just the interaction of both Deep Gash critting and the power damage combined, then I can understand removing the crits from it, but the feat not gaining any additional damage from the power that applies it seems overzealous.
In addtion, when these changes do go through, can we expect an increase in Sentinel Tree's overall survivability and tanking ability to compensate, since it seems you want tanking and DPS roles to be more specific in what they accomplish. However I'm not sure how tanking with Sentinel can be achieved effectively when damage seems to be one of the main sources of threat generation, and certain other classes can cause more damage and pull aggro away from you.
At the end of the day Neverwinter's issue is just the same as every other Cryptic game; a DPS race focused effort, one when damage is key to succeeding in almost all situations, and a problem for anything that doesn't do enough of it. In this instance tanking, or controlling, alone isn't a wholly viable playstyle compared to the alternatives.
the core issue realy is the agro system, your going to kill tanking altogether unless ppl go destroyer, like what happened to protector GF now u need a concourer or tactician to have enuff dps to gain agro the 25% on battle trample just isnt enuff you could fix it though for both classes, by making battle trample a "hard" taunt of 2 or 3 seconds without that 25% more threat dosnt mitigate doing 1/2 or 1/3 of the damage of a dps class and you become superfluos to party as the cw ends up "tanking"
Not sure how I feel about these new changes. One one hand, it's good that you're nerfing all the high damage GWFs could do regardless of their paragon paths. but on the other hand I have a feeling you're focusing too much on Destroyers.
For my GWF it'll be a matter of deciding between Relentless Battlefury and Deep Gash now for feat allotment. Gonna test it out on Preview and see what does more damage.
I am not sure the 60% figure for Deep Gash is correct (at least for my non-BiS GWF) but it certainly is currently a fair chunk of GWF damage, and my feeling is that the overall damage of the GWF is definitely reduced, probably considerably.
And of course, your closing statement is right - with these changes the only viable class in PvE is likely to be Control Wizards...
Lol 60% is a lower-end reading. If you buff your power up you can get Deep Gash to be ticking for 80% of your total damage in a normal CN run. (I have logged data of this.) Valiant is perhaps the best example of someone utilizing Deep Gash to its extreme. His power was 12k unbuffed, then with buffs could go as high as ~30k (Knight Captain's armor giving him 60% of his power, potions, and DC sharing power). Combine that with a p.vorp and your deep gash does 140% of its base + whatever debuffs are on the add. It's not too farfetched that you'd have a deep gash ticking for ~12-15k. That's actually assuming that the CW hasn't touched the add yet, which will provide additional debuffs.
Basically, we GWFs are looking at essentially a 140% nerf on deep gash, and that's not figuring in the reduced debuff from SoTS, and other things. Looking at it from a mathematical perspective, the buffs they added to the destroyer tree don't compensate this loss even a little. Guess I'll roll a CW for PvE now that I could never use my HR in the first place, DC is pretty useless in PvE, and my GWF just got nerfed.
Lol 60% is a lower-end reading. If you buff your power up you can get Deep Gash to be ticking for 80% of your total damage in a normal CN run. (I have logged data of this.) Valiant is perhaps the best example of someone utilizing Deep Gash to its extreme. His power was 12k unbuffed, then with buffs could go as high as ~30k (Knight Captain's armor giving him 60% of his power, potions, and DC sharing power). Combine that with a p.vorp and your deep gash does 140% of its base + whatever debuffs are on the add. It's not too farfetched that you'd have a deep gash ticking for ~12-15k. That's actually assuming that the CW hasn't touched the add yet, which will provide additional debuffs.
Basically, we GWFs are looking at essentially a 140% nerf on deep gash, and that's not figuring in the reduced debuff from SoTS, and other things. Looking at it from a mathematical perspective, the buffs they added to the destroyer tree don't compensate this loss even a little. Guess I'll roll a CW for PvE now that I could never use my HR in the first place, DC is pretty useless in PvE, and my GWF just got nerfed.
So basically you are saying that top-end GWFs, which are somewhat inferior to CWs in DPS output anyway are going to be seriously nerfed in the next patch, even if they are Destroyer spec? If true, then GWF will join the HR and TR at the bottom of the PvE heap.
Properly specced GF and Dc may be useful still as buff-bots for stacked CW parties, but honestly if this is the case, what would be the point in maining anything other than a CW for PvE now, if the only DPS class that is anywhere near them is nerfed to the ground? And that is leaving aside the fact that CWs bring so much else other than pure DPS to a party.
Obviously the changes will have to be tested by GWF at all GS levels, but it does seem a huge step backwards.
Lol 60% is a lower-end reading. If you buff your power up you can get Deep Gash to be ticking for 80% of your total damage in a normal CN run. (I have logged data of this.) Valiant is perhaps the best example of someone utilizing Deep Gash to its extreme. His power was 12k unbuffed, then with buffs could go as high as ~30k (Knight Captain's armor giving him 60% of his power, potions, and DC sharing power). Combine that with a p.vorp and your deep gash does 140% of its base + whatever debuffs are on the add. It's not too farfetched that you'd have a deep gash ticking for ~12-15k. That's actually assuming that the CW hasn't touched the add yet, which will provide additional debuffs.
Basically, we GWFs are looking at essentially a 140% nerf on deep gash, and that's not figuring in the reduced debuff from SoTS, and other things. Looking at it from a mathematical perspective, the buffs they added to the destroyer tree don't compensate this loss even a little. Guess I'll roll a CW for PvE now that I could never use my HR in the first place, DC is pretty useless in PvE, and my GWF just got nerfed.
i agree with u no way some small damage buffs on deystroyer will help at all we will again do few times worse dps then good cws just like it was before deep gash and with changes to sos gwf will be even less wanted then before deep gash update
and nerf of deep gash is a lot bigger then a lot of ppl think it cant anymore instant do damage when crtic but only 1 time per sec and this alone would be huge but power and crtic wont work on it to so deep gash is bk to 150 dps only now will be even worse since cant instant proc on crtic anymore like it used to when did 150 ticks
Yes the ones with ~35k life. Even if they are too bad to dodge my full combo with daily does like 25% of their life. Its like they have 100% deflect. Even GWFs with full rank 10s die 3x faster than a hr.
yeah u clearly dont know much about HRs , or GWFs,
a Good GWF who knows how to gear and allocate stats can combo you into 30k HP with crits , with you having 2k deflect and 2k defence as HR (remind you that HR is dps class that sacrifices alot to get those defensive stats)
which is not hard because GWF can easy have 40% crit , 40% deflect with ~40k HP
And if a GWF with rank 10s dies faster than HR then he does something wrong, or maybe everything wrong
I'll obviously have to do testing on the test shard of course, and see how it all plays out, but...
As for the Destroyer, I mean sure we are losing some damage via Deep Gash, but it will no longer be underwritten by a lower Crit (Like Indomitable Battle Strike crit damage immediately overwritten by a At-Will one) and the damage will be consistent and easily trackable, plus we get an extra tick. We will also be gaining increasted percentages of damage from Focused Destroyer and up to 20% Damage from Destroyer's Purpose for 15-20 seconds when doing damage while Unstoppable, and as a Destroyer it's not hard to have Unstoppable go off once every 20 seconds or so, so that could be close to a constant 15-20% increase of damage.
I think that will all lead to a increase in PvE Damage for Destroyer's, at least in theory...
I'll obviously have to do testing on the test shard of course, and see how it all plays out, but...
As for the Destroyer, I mean sure we are losing some damage via Deep Gash, but it will no longer be underwritten by a lower Crit (Like Indomitable Battle Strike crit damage immediately overwritten by a At-Will one) and the damage will be consistent and easily trackable, plus we get an extra tick. We will also be gaining increasted percentages of damage from Focused Destroyer and up to 20% Damage from Destroyer's Purpose for 15-20 seconds when doing damage while Unstoppable, and as a Destroyer it's not hard to have Unstoppable go off once every 20 seconds or so, so that could be close to a constant 15-20% increase of damage.
I think that will all lead to a increase in PvE Damage for Destroyer's, at least in theory...
Interesting, but all those increases are based off a much lower damage level after the Deep Gash changes, so are they really enough?
Anyway, I await your testing with a lot of curiosity.
Interesting, but all those increases are based off a much lower damage level after the Deep Gash changes, so are they really enough?
Well the Deep Gash damage will be less, of course... But your generic damage will be higher overall, so Vorpal may still be king of the kill since the extra crit severity is still superb when you crit 40-50% of the time (Taking into account Weapon Master stacks). So if Destoyer's overall damage is going up 15-25% percent, that means your crits will be that much higher, etc.
Is that enough to offset/exceed the Deep Gash change?
In what exact cases were it making up 30% overall damage? If it's just the interaction of both Deep Gash critting and the power damage combined, then I can understand removing the crits from it, but the feat not gaining any additional damage from the power that applies it seems overzealous.
In addtion, when these changes do go through, can we expect an increase in Sentinel Tree's overall survivability and tanking ability to compensate, since it seems you want tanking and DPS roles to be more specific in what they accomplish. However I'm not sure how tanking with Sentinel can be achieved effectively when damage seems to be one of the main sources of threat generation, and certain other classes can cause more damage and pull aggro away from you.
At the end of the day Neverwinter's issue is just the same as every other Cryptic game; a DPS race focused effort, one when damage is key to succeeding in almost all situations, and a problem for anything that doesn't do enough of it. In this instance tanking, or controlling, alone isn't a wholly viable playstyle compared to the alternatives.
Tanking is something we are very concerned about, especially given the lack of a way to provide yourself a relatively active mitigation beyond Unstoppable, which in any case required taking quite a bit of damage to activate.
Threat Generation is also a big concern, but we have to be really careful about turning too many dials at once. For the short term we had no choice but to adjust this damage (as I said in the OP, Deep Gash was going to change drastically with the rework to the Power stat) and we want to see where that shakes out first before making bigger changes. To be a true tank without dealing incredible damage the Sentinel tree will need different tools available to it, and adding those tools without careful consideration is dangerous. Rest assured however that we are thinking about it.
Also to note, with some straight forward damage parsing and testing (I ran 10 tests, 5 minute interval and one 30 minute interval) deep gash came in quite consistently at around 5% of my total damage (single target for these tests). This is a very good place for a T1 feat to be sitting in given that any tree can get access to it.
So give Sents a feat that un-does the effects of heal depression.
You can't just do a massive nerf to survivability in one patch and on the very next patch do a massive nerf to dps. This cripples the class.
Sents are absolutely horrible in pve. All we have is pvp. It's so easy for us to die now and the new sent pvp gear has no offensive stats whatsoever. On top of that the profound gear doesn't have hp set bonuses and the profound sent weapons have no crit and no set bonus either (supposed to be 450 crit) . My point is, to truly be tanky (post pvp patch) you must max out with defensive gear and tenacity, but in doing so you essentially give up you dps anyways. So this is a double wammy.
Like I said before, the changes simply don't make sense in the post pvp patch era. Devs, read the threads. Everyone is talking about how much easier it is to kill GWFs now, talking about how its no problem to bring them down. These changes seem like they were initiated pre-pvp patch were Sents had too much dps compared to their survivability.
These days being a melee class without a dodge, honestly even for full Sents survivability isn't great. Nobody would want to play a Sent that has embarrassing dps with no pve viability and only good (NOT great) survivability.
Recap for Sents after these changes:
worse survivability than DCs
worse survivability than well played TRs
laughable dps
no pve ability whatsoever. Even guild mates will avoid inviting you to parties.
Also to note, with some straight forward damage parsing and testing (I ran 10 tests, 5 minute interval and one 30 minute interval) deep gash came in quite consistently at around 5% of my total damage (single target for these tests). This is a very good place for a T1 feat to be sitting in given that any tree can get access to it.[/QUOTE] this means then we will again have gwf who got out dpsed by cw more then few times easy no more place for gwf in any epic after this
any news on new itemization system for items we should get with mod 3?
Wow. A feat that is going to increase GWFs damage by 20% and that seems to be designed to be kept up with a 100% uptime... That's crazy. Do you devs really want to see the game only being about 30-50 NPCs pulls and lifesteal tanking? This is what is going to happen. This is a big buff to destroyers, and destroyers tank as well if not better than sentinels, provided they have 8-10% lifesteal. A 20% damage buff to every single GWF spell seems quite huge and is going to make tanks and healing clerics even more useless. How could a tank be useful among 50 mobs? How a healer would be required when every hit heals you for 20, 30 or even 50k with 10% life drain?
well, repeating the question to soothe my heart ... haha.
Taking into account the porpose destroyer, if I hit 5 enemies with reaping strike being unstoppable, I generate 1 or 5 stacks? and a plan to improve the synergy between this Atwill and steal blitz?
if I sacrifice mobility and I strive to create a logistic, a reward is needed.
ps: between us, I do not believe that the synergy between "savage advanced" and "ibs" will work. great idea - all possibilities are interesting - but it is an unrealistic scenario.
Furthermore, the daily is very counter productive and that the idea is to keep the enemy in the "nuke area ".
The GWF will lose too much dps without Deep Gash crit. If some feats/skills are unbalanced, they should be balanced only in 1 context: if deep gash does too much damage in a pvp match the skill must be nerfed only in the pvp context and vice-versa
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gorakasulMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 24Arc User
edited March 2014
The proposed changes to the GWF are a nerf overall for both the Sentinel AND the Destroyer.
I am currently playing an Iron Vanguard Destroyer with a perfect vorpal and 16k+ GS with a focus on PvE so please keep that in mind while reading my feedback, which is meant to be a feedback for PvE alone.
Deep Gash:
On the live server Deep Gash is ~40% of my DMG during most dungeons thanks to the perfect vorpal and the feat's double dipping into power. While you are absolutely right that the feats needs a serious nerf, I don't really think a ~80% dps nerf to Deep Gash is really justified. The feat no longer being able to crit brings it down by ~60% alone which should be more than enough. It also opens up more choices when it comes to the weapon enchant.
Deep Gash is also very important for the other specs to be viable. A Sentinel will become next to useless without the added DPS of Deep Gash, easily cutting their damage in half.
You could remove the crit from Deep Gash and stick to the buffs to Focused Destroyer (much needed due to Trample the Fallen being a way too good alternative) and Destroyers Purpose (let it cap at 10%). That should bring the damage of Destroyers down by ~10% which is absolutely fine.
Instigator:
Right now there is no room in any group for an Instigator. Why should I bring one to the dungeon?
With pure DPS (Destroyer) and "tanky" DPS (Sentinel) covered, the only role I could imagine would be a DPS/Utility hybrid that focuses on control/buffs/debuffs.
The general problem with the PvE content nowadays is the CW. Every class/role that deals less damage while not bringing in more utility than a CW has no real place in a serious PvE enviroment. A class either needs to out-dps a CW quite heavily (which currently only the GWF can do) or offer way more debuff/buffs than a CW (which currently on the DC can do). If that is not the case, you'll end up with CW-only groups like it happened so many times in the past.
In the current PvE meta, as I would call it, there is only room for 3 classes:
-DPS GWF
-CW
-Debuffer DC
Every other class/role is worse in what they do than the above mentioned classes. Why would I bring a TR or HR when trying to go for the best possible group?
And this is my main concern when reading those changes. You can not bring the DPS of a GWF down to the level of a CW (or lower) without it resulting in CW-only groups. The Deep Gash nerf will result in Sentinels and Instigators being even less desirable in PvE unless you buff their DPS or utility in another way. Nerfing the DPS of a Sentinel while increasing his survivability will only push him further down the dreaded road that the GF took.
TL;DR:
-Deep Gash needs a nerf
-Destroyer GWF needs a slight nerf
-Sentinel DPS and survivability is barely fine for PvE
-Instigator needs a serious rework to make it even remotely interesting in PvE
-Don't nerf GWF damage too much or you'll have CW-only groups again
Yeah I was looking forward to playing mod 3 with a GWF main but it's painfully obvious that was a completely wasted effort... They aren't touching any other classes except nerfing HR (no idea why) and GWF (which is the only contender with CW in PVE and with TR in PVP).
I'm willing to wager they will eventually just ninja nerf permastealth and see what happens. Unfortunately at that point these combined nerfs might push many of the older players out of the game. Not to mention new players finding out a week or two into playing a GF, GWF, DC or an HR that their class is underpowered for pretty much anything...
the higest damage destroyers use destroyer and steel blitz no space for wepon masters stikes 1 tick per second and deep gash caped at 20% of power means even a 10k power gwf will be able to add 2k a second max to its damage on stuff, my 6.5k power gwf curently gets upto 4k a tick depending what power aplyed it if it was from finishing a target with indomidable battle stike for eg, say a cluster of stuff in a singularity. HR's can be tankyer in pvp then a sentinel already i know a few that are its due to them having feats that can add like 20% resistance which even aplys to stuff like TR shocking execution that ignores normal armour using pvp gear and valindras wepons they can have 30%armour pen 32k hitpoints 105% base mitigation these are ofc utilising feats out of nature and stacing there defence up to 40% from gear and using pvp gear for 20%+ tenacity but they can be consistantly tankyer in pvp especialy against stuff like TR shocking execution which ignores normal armour, but back to my point at hand cause pvp is mostly about prone locking and having 6 dodges is always going to make HR tanky there, these changes will mostly effect pve making Student of the Sword nolonger effect party makes it rather pointless to go down instigator path , some have said what about 5% damage 5% crit of vicious advantage, if your sword master spec maybe you will see ppl take student of sword and vicious advantage for 10% total damage and 5% crit but plenty of of them will just spend those point picking up additional destroyer powers like savage advantage some IV's will take 10 points in sentinel so they can pickup the extra aggro and 25% wepon damage to attacks, but regardless end game gwf be they tank or DPS builds with these changes will be both predominately destroyer tree with maybe 10 points in sent if a "tank" or maybe 10 in instigator if dps or just 31 in destroyer as dps this is going to be a major variety nurf to GWF not just a very large damage reduction due to deep gash even on my gwf that didnt build around maximising the buggy nature of it post last change to it and the only way i see myself doing high enuff damage to tank for a party is by being dps tree lol
Currently Deep gash is rather buggy, since your last update to it though, ATM it dose 15% of your atacks damage per tick not total, plenty of GWF can buff the Indomidable battle stike up to 50k+ damage a crit if indomidable battle stike kills a target it procs a mark on all the enemys with 10 foot or so and cause it was a crit that mark deals deep gash damage based on the IBS damage. just because u broke it and ppl complained that it was now op dosnt mean u should nurf it into the ground just fix it to not be based on the damage of the attack that generated it
cause unless u give more threat generating options to sentinels then they have this will be the death of PVE speced sentinel tanks, they will only be viable in pvp cause 25% extra agro from battle trample dosnt make up for doing 50% less damage a hit with the way your agro system works
As for pvp none of this will stop IV GWF prone locking and threatrushing stuff to death cause as we know prone targets cant do anythign including go unstopable so pronelock is still god in pvp it will just mean they use bravery and destroyer rather then bravery and weponmasters strikes and have little to no points in sentinel and majority in destroyer i know plenty of endgame destroyers who have 40% mitigation thru clever use of jewlry and enchants, noone has space even sents for restoring stike post pvp patch most barely have room for ibs. I amoungst others use frount line surge takedown and because i use avatar of war set i use battle furry to get it up and keep it up whenever theres combat, these nurfs to sent will just make all GWF destroyers, im sure swordmasters run a similar setup with flourish instead of FLS
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I have rank 7s, a lesser armor enchant, and a regular weapon enchant (plaguefire). I've played against some of the best HRs in the game, and have not experienced what you're talking about. With the nature paragon tree nerfed due to healing depression, I have not fought an HR that was too tanky for me to kill. I can't fathom you're having problems against HRs when in rank 7s I have 40.5k HP and probably twice the deflect an HR can max out on.
Go open another thread, this isn't the thread to complain about HRs.
A good set of changes if it does what it is supposed to with GWFs now having to make trade-offs between DPS and survivability in PvP. The only thing I am worried about is that with these changes, GWF damage in PvE will be reduced which will make increase the already huge difference between CW's effectiveness in PvE compared to every other class to a ridiculous amount.
Any chance of separating PvP and PvE powers as this would enable a lot better tweaking of all classes to be viable, even desirable in both PvP and PvE?
The sentinel pvp gear has almost no offensive stats whatsoever. You cant mix and match pieces of destroyer without losing set bonuses.
General consensus is that GWFs are balanced after Healing Depression. This is really a double wammy with a major nerf to both offense and defense. Sent survivability isn't that great anymore to go and essentially give us no offensive ability between gear and spec
I don't trust the changes to student of the sword. Debuffs in this game are a lie. Before it was giving a flat damage increase of 5%
I don't know what the new changes will do but I hope it doesn't mess with DPS too much
These changes might have made sense before the pvp patch, but not anymore.
If your going to nerf offense this much for sents then fine but I want more survivability in return.
second question: what is the actual projection of gwf damage in comparative terms.
What? I play a lot of PvP, especially since the patch, and have never seen one of those creatures. They are definitely shifty, do a lot of damage, and generally hard to hit or catch. But they always are squishy like TRs or CWs, even those stacking defense, deflect, and/or hp.
because of buged encounter which give them damage imune this mod will fix this encounter
Deep Gash was 60% of a GWF overall dmg, so you cut that off and gave Destroyers (only) aprox 30% dmg, but that 30% applies now to the 40% so a 12% dmg increase. If i'm not missing something GWF gets the dmg cut in half
I do agree that deep gash did a bit too much.. but this is way too much
I am not sure the 60% figure for Deep Gash is correct (at least for my non-BiS GWF) but it certainly is currently a fair chunk of GWF damage, and my feeling is that the overall damage of the GWF is definitely reduced, probably considerably.
And of course, your closing statement is right - with these changes the only viable class in PvE is likely to be Control Wizards...
In what exact cases were it making up 30% overall damage? If it's just the interaction of both Deep Gash critting and the power damage combined, then I can understand removing the crits from it, but the feat not gaining any additional damage from the power that applies it seems overzealous.
In addtion, when these changes do go through, can we expect an increase in Sentinel Tree's overall survivability and tanking ability to compensate, since it seems you want tanking and DPS roles to be more specific in what they accomplish. However I'm not sure how tanking with Sentinel can be achieved effectively when damage seems to be one of the main sources of threat generation, and certain other classes can cause more damage and pull aggro away from you.
At the end of the day Neverwinter's issue is just the same as every other Cryptic game; a DPS race focused effort, one when damage is key to succeeding in almost all situations, and a problem for anything that doesn't do enough of it. In this instance tanking, or controlling, alone isn't a wholly viable playstyle compared to the alternatives.
For my GWF it'll be a matter of deciding between Relentless Battlefury and Deep Gash now for feat allotment. Gonna test it out on Preview and see what does more damage.
Lol 60% is a lower-end reading. If you buff your power up you can get Deep Gash to be ticking for 80% of your total damage in a normal CN run. (I have logged data of this.) Valiant is perhaps the best example of someone utilizing Deep Gash to its extreme. His power was 12k unbuffed, then with buffs could go as high as ~30k (Knight Captain's armor giving him 60% of his power, potions, and DC sharing power). Combine that with a p.vorp and your deep gash does 140% of its base + whatever debuffs are on the add. It's not too farfetched that you'd have a deep gash ticking for ~12-15k. That's actually assuming that the CW hasn't touched the add yet, which will provide additional debuffs.
Basically, we GWFs are looking at essentially a 140% nerf on deep gash, and that's not figuring in the reduced debuff from SoTS, and other things. Looking at it from a mathematical perspective, the buffs they added to the destroyer tree don't compensate this loss even a little. Guess I'll roll a CW for PvE now that I could never use my HR in the first place, DC is pretty useless in PvE, and my GWF just got nerfed.
So basically you are saying that top-end GWFs, which are somewhat inferior to CWs in DPS output anyway are going to be seriously nerfed in the next patch, even if they are Destroyer spec? If true, then GWF will join the HR and TR at the bottom of the PvE heap.
Properly specced GF and Dc may be useful still as buff-bots for stacked CW parties, but honestly if this is the case, what would be the point in maining anything other than a CW for PvE now, if the only DPS class that is anywhere near them is nerfed to the ground? And that is leaving aside the fact that CWs bring so much else other than pure DPS to a party.
Obviously the changes will have to be tested by GWF at all GS levels, but it does seem a huge step backwards.
i agree with u no way some small damage buffs on deystroyer will help at all we will again do few times worse dps then good cws just like it was before deep gash and with changes to sos gwf will be even less wanted then before deep gash update
and nerf of deep gash is a lot bigger then a lot of ppl think it cant anymore instant do damage when crtic but only 1 time per sec and this alone would be huge but power and crtic wont work on it to so deep gash is bk to 150 dps only now will be even worse since cant instant proc on crtic anymore like it used to when did 150 ticks
yeah u clearly dont know much about HRs , or GWFs,
a Good GWF who knows how to gear and allocate stats can combo you into 30k HP with crits , with you having 2k deflect and 2k defence as HR (remind you that HR is dps class that sacrifices alot to get those defensive stats)
which is not hard because GWF can easy have 40% crit , 40% deflect with ~40k HP
And if a GWF with rank 10s dies faster than HR then he does something wrong, or maybe everything wrong
As for the Destroyer, I mean sure we are losing some damage via Deep Gash, but it will no longer be underwritten by a lower Crit (Like Indomitable Battle Strike crit damage immediately overwritten by a At-Will one) and the damage will be consistent and easily trackable, plus we get an extra tick. We will also be gaining increasted percentages of damage from Focused Destroyer and up to 20% Damage from Destroyer's Purpose for 15-20 seconds when doing damage while Unstoppable, and as a Destroyer it's not hard to have Unstoppable go off once every 20 seconds or so, so that could be close to a constant 15-20% increase of damage.
I think that will all lead to a increase in PvE Damage for Destroyer's, at least in theory...
Interesting, but all those increases are based off a much lower damage level after the Deep Gash changes, so are they really enough?
Anyway, I await your testing with a lot of curiosity.
Is that enough to offset/exceed the Deep Gash change?
We'll have to see when we get the chance...
Tanking is something we are very concerned about, especially given the lack of a way to provide yourself a relatively active mitigation beyond Unstoppable, which in any case required taking quite a bit of damage to activate.
Threat Generation is also a big concern, but we have to be really careful about turning too many dials at once. For the short term we had no choice but to adjust this damage (as I said in the OP, Deep Gash was going to change drastically with the rework to the Power stat) and we want to see where that shakes out first before making bigger changes. To be a true tank without dealing incredible damage the Sentinel tree will need different tools available to it, and adding those tools without careful consideration is dangerous. Rest assured however that we are thinking about it.
Also to note, with some straight forward damage parsing and testing (I ran 10 tests, 5 minute interval and one 30 minute interval) deep gash came in quite consistently at around 5% of my total damage (single target for these tests). This is a very good place for a T1 feat to be sitting in given that any tree can get access to it.
You can't just do a massive nerf to survivability in one patch and on the very next patch do a massive nerf to dps. This cripples the class.
Sents are absolutely horrible in pve. All we have is pvp. It's so easy for us to die now and the new sent pvp gear has no offensive stats whatsoever. On top of that the profound gear doesn't have hp set bonuses and the profound sent weapons have no crit and no set bonus either (supposed to be 450 crit) . My point is, to truly be tanky (post pvp patch) you must max out with defensive gear and tenacity, but in doing so you essentially give up you dps anyways. So this is a double wammy.
Like I said before, the changes simply don't make sense in the post pvp patch era. Devs, read the threads. Everyone is talking about how much easier it is to kill GWFs now, talking about how its no problem to bring them down. These changes seem like they were initiated pre-pvp patch were Sents had too much dps compared to their survivability.
These days being a melee class without a dodge, honestly even for full Sents survivability isn't great. Nobody would want to play a Sent that has embarrassing dps with no pve viability and only good (NOT great) survivability.
Recap for Sents after these changes:
worse survivability than DCs
worse survivability than well played TRs
laughable dps
no pve ability whatsoever. Even guild mates will avoid inviting you to parties.
GWF will be the new GF.... GG
this means then we will again have gwf who got out dpsed by cw more then few times easy
any news on new itemization system for items we should get with mod 3?
Taking into account the porpose destroyer, if I hit 5 enemies with reaping strike being unstoppable, I generate 1 or 5 stacks? and a plan to improve the synergy between this Atwill and steal blitz?
if I sacrifice mobility and I strive to create a logistic, a reward is needed.
ps: between us, I do not believe that the synergy between "savage advanced" and "ibs" will work. great idea - all possibilities are interesting - but it is an unrealistic scenario.
Furthermore, the daily is very counter productive and that the idea is to keep the enemy in the "nuke area ".
I am currently playing an Iron Vanguard Destroyer with a perfect vorpal and 16k+ GS with a focus on PvE so please keep that in mind while reading my feedback, which is meant to be a feedback for PvE alone.
Deep Gash:
On the live server Deep Gash is ~40% of my DMG during most dungeons thanks to the perfect vorpal and the feat's double dipping into power. While you are absolutely right that the feats needs a serious nerf, I don't really think a ~80% dps nerf to Deep Gash is really justified. The feat no longer being able to crit brings it down by ~60% alone which should be more than enough. It also opens up more choices when it comes to the weapon enchant.
Deep Gash is also very important for the other specs to be viable. A Sentinel will become next to useless without the added DPS of Deep Gash, easily cutting their damage in half.
You could remove the crit from Deep Gash and stick to the buffs to Focused Destroyer (much needed due to Trample the Fallen being a way too good alternative) and Destroyers Purpose (let it cap at 10%). That should bring the damage of Destroyers down by ~10% which is absolutely fine.
Instigator:
Right now there is no room in any group for an Instigator. Why should I bring one to the dungeon?
With pure DPS (Destroyer) and "tanky" DPS (Sentinel) covered, the only role I could imagine would be a DPS/Utility hybrid that focuses on control/buffs/debuffs.
The general problem with the PvE content nowadays is the CW. Every class/role that deals less damage while not bringing in more utility than a CW has no real place in a serious PvE enviroment. A class either needs to out-dps a CW quite heavily (which currently only the GWF can do) or offer way more debuff/buffs than a CW (which currently on the DC can do). If that is not the case, you'll end up with CW-only groups like it happened so many times in the past.
In the current PvE meta, as I would call it, there is only room for 3 classes:
-DPS GWF
-CW
-Debuffer DC
Every other class/role is worse in what they do than the above mentioned classes. Why would I bring a TR or HR when trying to go for the best possible group?
And this is my main concern when reading those changes. You can not bring the DPS of a GWF down to the level of a CW (or lower) without it resulting in CW-only groups. The Deep Gash nerf will result in Sentinels and Instigators being even less desirable in PvE unless you buff their DPS or utility in another way. Nerfing the DPS of a Sentinel while increasing his survivability will only push him further down the dreaded road that the GF took.
TL;DR:
-Deep Gash needs a nerf
-Destroyer GWF needs a slight nerf
-Sentinel DPS and survivability is barely fine for PvE
-Instigator needs a serious rework to make it even remotely interesting in PvE
-Don't nerf GWF damage too much or you'll have CW-only groups again
I'm willing to wager they will eventually just ninja nerf permastealth and see what happens. Unfortunately at that point these combined nerfs might push many of the older players out of the game. Not to mention new players finding out a week or two into playing a GF, GWF, DC or an HR that their class is underpowered for pretty much anything...
making Student of the Sword nolonger effect party makes it rather pointless to go down instigator path , some have said what about 5% damage 5% crit of vicious advantage, if your sword master spec maybe you will see ppl take student of sword and vicious advantage for 10% total damage and 5% crit but plenty of of them will just spend those point picking up additional destroyer powers like savage advantage some IV's will take 10 points in sentinel so they can pickup the extra aggro and 25% wepon damage to attacks, but regardless end game gwf be they tank or DPS builds with these changes will be both predominately destroyer tree with maybe 10 points in sent if a "tank" or maybe 10 in instigator if dps or just 31 in destroyer as dps this is going to be a major variety nurf to GWF not just a very large damage reduction due to deep gash even on my gwf that didnt build around maximising the buggy nature of it post last change to it and the only way i see myself doing high enuff damage to tank for a party is by being dps tree lol
Currently Deep gash is rather buggy, since your last update to it though, ATM it dose 15% of your atacks damage per tick not total, plenty of GWF can buff the Indomidable battle stike up to 50k+ damage a crit if indomidable battle stike kills a target it procs a mark on all the enemys with 10 foot or so and cause it was a crit that mark deals deep gash damage based on the IBS damage. just because u broke it and ppl complained that it was now op dosnt mean u should nurf it into the ground just fix it to not be based on the damage of the attack that generated it
cause unless u give more threat generating options to sentinels then they have this will be the death of PVE speced sentinel tanks, they will only be viable in pvp cause 25% extra agro from battle trample dosnt make up for doing 50% less damage a hit with the way your agro system works
As for pvp none of this will stop IV GWF prone locking and threatrushing stuff to death cause as we know prone targets cant do anythign including go unstopable so pronelock is still god in pvp it will just mean they use bravery and destroyer rather then bravery and weponmasters strikes and have little to no points in sentinel and majority in destroyer i know plenty of endgame destroyers who have 40% mitigation thru clever use of jewlry and enchants, noone has space even sents for restoring stike post pvp patch most barely have room for ibs. I amoungst others use frount line surge takedown and because i use avatar of war set i use battle furry to get it up and keep it up whenever theres combat, these nurfs to sent will just make all GWF destroyers, im sure swordmasters run a similar setup with flourish instead of FLS