Guys, I have read the whole thread and want to step in and point something out. We are actively thinking about CWs and what to do with them right now (although I cannot give a timeline on anything relating to that right now). Balance is a really delicate situation and not one we make drastic changes to lightly. This was a case where if we did nothing every single GWF would have lost a substantial portion of their performance with no buffs to compensate. That said, this is why we put things like this on the preview shard. We want you guys to test it and get a feel for the intent and direction the class is moving so you can help shape it.
To be perfectly frank, the CW is very much out of line right now. They provide too much damage and their AoEs don't really conform to the same damage rules as they ideally should. But we have looked at various reasons as to why they cause problems and some of that lies in their feats, some in their base ratios, some in target caps, and that is really quite a few dials to tune all at once. We are looking at where they belong and what role they need to fit into in combat, as well as ways to preserve some roles that players enjoy without making them the best option at all times.
With all that in mind, please look at GWF performance alongside TR and HR as those are much closer to the performance values we would like to see. And we are aware of the struggle of Sentinels trying to hold threat and still be survivable. We want to examine tanking but we don't know when we will have something ready for that because it is a very difficult and complex set of changes to make Tanking feel gratifying without disabling gameplay for other players.
Guys, I have read the whole thread and want to step in and point something out. We are actively thinking about CWs and what to do with them right now (although I cannot give a timeline on anything relating to that right now). Balance is a really delicate situation and not one we make drastic changes to lightly. This was a case where if we did nothing every single GWF would have lost a substantial portion of their performance with no buffs to compensate. That said, this is why we put things like this on the preview shard. We want you guys to test it and get a feel for the intent and direction the class is moving so you can help shape it.
To be perfectly frank, the CW is very much out of line right now. They provide too much damage and their AoEs don't really conform to the same damage rules as they ideally should. But we have looked at various reasons as to why they cause problems and some of that lies in their feats, some in their base ratios, some in target caps, and that is really quite a few dials to tune all at once. We are looking at where they belong and what role they need to fit into in combat, as well as ways to preserve some roles that players enjoy without making them the best option at all times.
With all that in mind, please look at GWF performance alongside TR and HR as those are much closer to the performance values we would like to see. And we are aware of the struggle of Sentinels trying to hold threat and still be survivable. We want to examine tanking but we don't know when we will have something ready for that because it is a very difficult and complex set of changes to make Tanking feel gratifying without disabling gameplay for other players.
Does it mean you will finally fix the CW bugs like Armor Penetration?
I have a lvl 60 CW/DC and a HR. Maybe you should bring the other classes up to CW lvl because the CW is a hell of fun class to play and not the other way around, points to inc HR "nerfs" or in other words IMHO the problem lays in the early game design. In Neverwinter Online the dungeons have way to much trash mobs plus CC issues and that favors CW way more then anything else.....
Maybe "steal" some idea how TSW build the Dungeons, points to e.g. Polaris.
exiledtyrantMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2014
Are these new changes in, buffing the savage advance and battle fury feats an attempt to give more power to recovery specced GWF vs crit reliant ones? I am currently building a GWF that relies heavily on cooldown reduction and AP gen and these recent feat changes look like they will help that. Do you think this design choice will help give GWF more dps variety instead of stacking critcals? I have a lot of fun playing recovery centered especially after getting battle fury I am almost at 50% recharge speed and 15% AP gain. So far it has made a lot of difference in group dps and daily output. I now get almost 2-4 dailies a fight instead of only 1-2 and boost my groups AP gen by 35%( 50% gen for me or 75% while unstoppable) every 5 out of 14 seconds seems to really improve damage and daily output for the PUGs I've been in.
Maybe instigator should have been made more recovery based and the critical centric builds should have been left to destroyer? Recovery lends itself to being able to support and control a lot more often. Most of my more long cooldown moves are around 10-15 seconds right now while the others fall between 7-9 seconds. Since instigator tried to cater more towards controlling and support some retuning of the feats could have just as well went to that. The only thing now is that capstone has to be changed to something much better now as Destroyer's capstone is far better now with 20% damage that won't fall off, 10% encounter damage and determination from damage. 12% sometimes damage can't compete with a flat 20-30% always.
Lastly when does the 30% executioner bonus kick in? I never know if I am using battle strike to early. How much is Battle fury's damage buff fully upgraded. My guess is either 15-20% hopefully when I actually get epic gear I can get my Battle fury from 14 seconds to 10 so my buff only has a 5 second downtime. It adds a lot of group wide damage and doesn't cut into you damage as much because it gives that bonus to your encounters and your dailies.
Guys, I have read the whole thread and want to step in and point something out. We are actively thinking about CWs and what to do with them right now (although I cannot give a timeline on anything relating to that right now). Balance is a really delicate situation and not one we make drastic changes to lightly. This was a case where if we did nothing every single GWF would have lost a substantial portion of their performance with no buffs to compensate. That said, this is why we put things like this on the preview shard. We want you guys to test it and get a feel for the intent and direction the class is moving so you can help shape it.
To be perfectly frank, the CW is very much out of line right now. They provide too much damage and their AoEs don't really conform to the same damage rules as they ideally should. But we have looked at various reasons as to why they cause problems and some of that lies in their feats, some in their base ratios, some in target caps, and that is really quite a few dials to tune all at once. We are looking at where they belong and what role they need to fit into in combat, as well as ways to preserve some roles that players enjoy without making them the best option at all times.
With all that in mind, please look at GWF performance alongside TR and HR as those are much closer to the performance values we would like to see. And we are aware of the struggle of Sentinels trying to hold threat and still be survivable. We want to examine tanking but we don't know when we will have something ready for that because it is a very difficult and complex set of changes to make Tanking feel gratifying without disabling gameplay for other players.
Good to see this. I have some questions though:
1. For example I have 6000 Power and Rank 5 Deep Gash (the reworked one), am I gonna do a confirmed 240 damage per tick of Deep Gash or will this number be affected by external bonuses other than the removed criticals and initial power applied?
2. About new applications does not reset the tick timer for Deep Gash, may you elaborate a little further on this?
1. For example I have 6000 Power and Rank 5 Deep Gash (the reworked one), am I gonna do a confirmed 240 damage per tick of Deep Gash or will this number be affected by external bonuses other than the removed criticals and initial power applied?
2. About new applications does not reset the tick timer for Deep Gash, may you elaborate a little further on this?
Thanks!
Good questions!
1. You will do 240 damage before resistance. The target then will apply resistance to this damage. Unfortunately because of the way ArPen (the stat works) it doesn't yet apply to this damage. However, other sources of resistance shredding will work (Student of the Sword for example). We are aware that ArPen not working on many DoTs feels really bad, and are investigating solutions to this problem.
2. This one is a little harder, so TIME FOR ASCII ART!
Lets Imagine this is a timeline of 6 seconds. For the purposes of it being 3:30 am I will draw it in .25 second intervals, as seen below.
0----1----2----3----4----5----6----
If you apply at zero (which is the default way to think about application) your first tick of damage will be at 1, then 2, then 3, and so on until it expires.
Before if you were to apply again quickly you would see ticks happen where the X's were (assuming your first application at 0)
0--(new application here)-1--x-2--x-3--x-4--x-5--x-6----
In the new system all that gets affected is the remaining duration. So if you apply at 0, no matter when you would crit again you will get ticks at 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and so forth. This also means that if you were to crit again at 2.25 seconds you would gain ticks at 7 and 8 as well (with the buff expiring at 8.25). So what this means in the shorthand is that you cannot "clip" an existing Deep Gash, or lose any ticks by critting again too quickly.
Hopefully that makes sense!
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gorakasulMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 24Arc User
With all that in mind, please look at GWF performance alongside TR and HR as those are much closer to the performance values we would like to see. And we are aware of the struggle of Sentinels trying to hold threat and still be survivable. We want to examine tanking but we don't know when we will have something ready for that because it is a very difficult and complex set of changes to make Tanking feel gratifying without disabling gameplay for other players.
With that in mind you need to bring Destroyer DPS down to ~50% of it's current value while keeping Sentinel DPS roughly the same and buffing Instigator DPS. Right now you are nerfing Sentinel and Instigator DPS while trying to keep Destroyer DPS roughly the same. This is not solving anything, to be completely honest. In fact, you are looking completely in the wrong direction. Sentinel threat and survivability is more than fine, that never was an issue in PvE. The issue for most classes can be boiled down to "not enough dps" or "not enough control/support". For Sentinel that would be the first statement, while it would be both for the Instigator.
If you want to make tanking more desirable you should start looking at control/support spells and/or feats. Come and Get It is a nice place to start for example. Tie it closer to the Sentinel tree by giving it a feat that increases the range and adds a taunt to the targets. Make the marks more permanent and add a bonus for the rest of the group when attacking a marked target.
I'd want to have on of those Sentinels in my group!
Control or DPS-Buffs are the way to go because DPS and control is everything that counts in high-end PvE scenarios. Stacking DPS is a reality and will not stop with the next module. The classes that will do fine are those who provide either the most DPS or the best control/support.
HR are considered to be useless in PvE because they lack control/buffs and deal only average DPS.
TR are considered to be useless in PvE because they lack control/buffs and deal only below-average DPS.
GF are considered to be useless in PvE because they hit like a wet noodle while only offering a medium amount of control/buffs.
Instigators are unless in PvE because... What are Instigators supposed to be anyway?
Sentinels are less desirable in PvE because they have less DPS than a Destroyer while not offering more control/buffs.
And this is the direction you should be looking at in terms of PvE performance. Your proposed changes aren't really helping anyone except Destroyers who are the least ones to actually need any help. Your changes are making the Sentinel even less useful for groups and I have to ask why that is...
To be perfectly frank, the CW is very much out of line right now. They provide too much damage and their AoEs don't really conform to the same damage rules as they ideally should. But we have looked at various reasons as to why they cause problems and some of that lies in their feats, some in their base ratios, some in target caps, and that is really quite a few dials to tune all at once. We are looking at where they belong and what role they need to fit into in combat, as well as ways to preserve some roles that players enjoy without making them the best option at all times.
Nice, but how can feedback be given when the changes are not all in the same time? Atm if someone makes a group to go in a dungeon, they'll see CW doing it all! So guess the feedback cant be anything else but qq. Also if you cut the dmg in half are dungeons going to be reworked? I have in mind dracolich (sry this fight was bad from day one and never balanced for a rainbow party) and valindra, 2 encounters that are all about dmg.
1. You will do 240 damage before resistance. The target then will apply resistance to this damage. Unfortunately because of the way ArPen (the stat works) it doesn't yet apply to this damage. However, other sources of resistance shredding will work (Student of the Sword for example). We are aware that ArPen not working on many DoTs feels really bad, and are investigating solutions to this problem.
2. This one is a little harder, so TIME FOR ASCII ART!
Lets Imagine this is a timeline of 6 seconds. For the purposes of it being 3:30 am I will draw it in .25 second intervals, as seen below.
0----1----2----3----4----5----6----
If you apply at zero (which is the default way to think about application) your first tick of damage will be at 1, then 2, then 3, and so on until it expires.
Before if you were to apply again quickly you would see ticks happen where the X's were (assuming your first application at 0)
0--(new application here)-1--x-2--x-3--x-4--x-5--x-6----
In the new system all that gets affected is the remaining duration. So if you apply at 0, no matter when you would crit again you will get ticks at 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and so forth. This also means that if you were to crit again at 2.25 seconds you would gain ticks at 7 and 8 as well (with the buff expiring at 8.25). So what this means in the shorthand is that you cannot "clip" an existing Deep Gash, or lose any ticks by critting again too quickly.
Hopefully that makes sense!
That certainly did!
Thanks for the clear explanation, looking forward to testing this!
Guys, I have read the whole thread and want to step in and point something out. We are actively thinking about CWs and what to do with them right now (although I cannot give a timeline on anything relating to that right now). Balance is a really delicate situation and not one we make drastic changes to lightly. This was a case where if we did nothing every single GWF would have lost a substantial portion of their performance with no buffs to compensate. That said, this is why we put things like this on the preview shard. We want you guys to test it and get a feel for the intent and direction the class is moving so you can help shape it.
To be perfectly frank, the CW is very much out of line right now. They provide too much damage and their AoEs don't really conform to the same damage rules as they ideally should. But we have looked at various reasons as to why they cause problems and some of that lies in their feats, some in their base ratios, some in target caps, and that is really quite a few dials to tune all at once. We are looking at where they belong and what role they need to fit into in combat, as well as ways to preserve some roles that players enjoy without making them the best option at all times.
With all that in mind, please look at GWF performance alongside TR and HR as those are much closer to the performance values we would like to see. And we are aware of the struggle of Sentinels trying to hold threat and still be survivable. We want to examine tanking but we don't know when we will have something ready for that because it is a very difficult and complex set of changes to make Tanking feel gratifying without disabling gameplay for other players.
Thank you for your first statement, as this gives me hope that I can eventually play non-CW classes at endgame and not feel I am handicapping my party.
Second, right now GWF > HR, TR, GF at endgame. However, you choose to normalize this issue in the short -term (reducing or increasing damage) something has to be done as these classes are frankly undesirable. My suggestion is to buff the AoE damage of the conqueror line of GF to around 90-100% of a GWFs Destroyer line. The HR AoE damage should be increased as well. In the current endgame setup, TR's single target damage is irrelevant and buffing it would cause huge issues in PvP. Perhaps add a lot more utility there in terms of group buffs and increase its AoE damage.
Off-topic:
Long-term dual specs and different power and feat damage/effects of powers in PvE and PvP would help solve a lot of issues.
Also making dungeons less of ridiculous add-fests would make non-CW stacked parties more viable.
ok so now deep gash dose about same dps as pre mod 5% mine was doing much higher % easy 45% dps lose even if it crit with all other nerf still only be like 8% or so.
new student sword def reduce 5% instead def reduce 45% this is now 1% dps instead 9% dps also solo instead party. why not just 45% def make it self only.
even if they only nerf gwf by amounts I said it still be ugly kid just bit less so
now lets look what it gets if destroyer new cap stone is 20% once you build it up and when you unstoppable if your lucky this be like 15% and lets be over top here say other feats add 5% dps so 20% dps and this is if your destroyer welcome back ugly kid no one will want you in groups and this is destroyer
sent you can not hold agro no way in hell you can don't matter how tanked and how much you reduce damage if you can not get agro you can not tank. - Make Intimidation feat add a taunt onto the ability's so we can pick up agro
- Make Grudge Style Feat add threat to all ability's
- Make unstoppable Recovery add Threat 25% as well
- NON ABOVE benfit pvp at all and would prob not be anuff threat to even make up for dps lose from threat as losing 50% damage all most and gaining nothing so 50% threat buff is needed
instigator capstone works not being hit yet there no threat reduce and the cap stone don't makes up for what you lose from unstoppable. this is with out factoring in all aoe damage that stops capstone so ugly kid -Vicious Advantage Combat advantage now grants you 5% crit and 5% crit severity as is not even adding 3% dps
- Nimble Runner Tanking feat on feat tree that aimed not to be hit change it to threat reduce %
- Allied Oppotunity nice feat but up duration to like 5 sec(3 sec is to short)
- Crippling strike needs give dps buff to spinning strike not just slow
- Fleet Footed Whener you control a target you lose 10% agro (less trash threat)
- Instigator's Vendeance Make it 20% dps+ your losing unstoppable for this feat as you can not be hit aoe and a lot stuff will still hit you and remove it so probly needs be more even
these just examples what needs doing and these would not even bring gwf back into line with before you nerf us by amount your planning.
most changes I have asked for effect pvp very little and don't even begin to make up for the nerf
PVP as Gwf will change very little its burst and prone lock that kills people not dots all these changes are doing is killing gwf in pve again
now lets Have quick look class devs play and I seen 3 out 4 devs play this class as there toon out 4 I seen 3 them cw tbh its insulting day 1 beta cw op cw all ways op its most op class out there. but where are the cw fixs as all ways there set for like year 2020
now lets look thing that's breaking pvp most emblem artefact where is its fix to stop 2h+ premade no where so 2 most broken things get ignored once again its just insulting over half my pvp friends left game and about 25% pve friends have left the game.
Devs priority seems to be breaking game or fixing whats not broken when biggest issues all ways get back seat.
if you car has scratch on it and engine not working you fix engine first not the scratch as all ways you ignore biggest most broken issues or fix what is not broken Example power yes mega complex not its most simple stat out there no demising no cap all other stats more complex.
I don't know why we even give feed back report bugs ptr ignored
tencity sucks made pvp much more broken you forced it in
elo instead real ladder system that's working well not.
no premade que so we can not premade vs premade easy
Refinment system remake not needed
Sca what is the point
Artifacts pet passives over turned toons for pve and some pet passives still do not work at all yet you charge for them was not needed.
List is massive these just few exampls why so many people leaving your game (feels like it was in better place in beta than it dose now)
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2014
This above^
Deep Gash was not problematic in PvP (15% damage), and in PvE why care if GWF deals lots of DPS? Let them do it and enjoy themselves.
So I can only hope that the new changes will make up for ALL the lost damage. I really hope GWF can keep just as much PvE viability as they have now.
As for PvP, the issues, as specified by pkdeadly above, were Threatening Rush spam, all time every time, with lots of damage and debuffing, and the incoming FLS/Takedown/IBS combo that followed.
Was Deep Gash broken? Maybe. If it REALLY was, then it's OK you're fixing it.
But please make sure PvE GWF viability (through DPS) remains the same, hence buffs in other places are needed to make up for lost DG damage.
very thanks on the CW part.
I'm curious to see what you will propose for all of this.
For feat, did you mean like Assailing Force from Thaum path ?
If yes, can we expect to see some Thaum/Renegade feat change to make it on par with Oppressor damage ?
Will it be the end of infinite target for Icy terrain ?
Can we expect change like this : if it's a control power, it deal low damage but can affect more target ?
And we are aware of the struggle of Sentinels trying to hold threat and still be survivable. We want to examine tanking but we don't know when we will have something ready for that because it is a very difficult and complex set of changes to make Tanking feel gratifying without disabling gameplay for other players.
That doesn't need to be fixed. If you want aggro control, take a GF with you. Simple.
Deep Gash was not problematic in PvP (15% damage), and in PvE why care if GWF deals lots of DPS? Let them do it and enjoy themselves.
So I can only hope that the new changes will make up for ALL the lost damage. I really hope GWF can keep just as much PvE viability as they have now.
As for PvP, the issues, as specified by pkdeadly above, were Threatening Rush spam, all time every time, with lots of damage and debuffing, and the incoming FLS/Takedown/IBS combo that followed.
Was Deep Gash broken? Maybe. If it REALLY was, then it's OK you're fixing it.
But please make sure PvE GWF viability (through DPS) remains the same, hence buffs in other places are needed to make up for lost DG damage.
Not partially, but fully.
As an altoholic whose favorite class is a GWF, I think the priority has to be that ALL classes are balanced. If this can be done by buffing other classes that is the better option, but if there has to be some reduction in GWF damage I can live with that.
Otherwise you open the door for players of whatever is the dominant PvE class to simply start parroting the constant excuse "BUFF everyone else, don't reduce my damage".
I greatly respect that a primarily CW player such as yourself, pers3phone, feels the need to come into this thread and support keeping the DPS of the PvE class that is closest to that of a CW the same. Sadly, we all know that there are purely partisan CW players around who would use the exactly the same argument to try to defend the Staus Quo of CW domination over all the other classes which would be bad for the game overall.
can u buff up battle fury 2-3 secs longer durutation,instant cast,half benefit to team would make it a bit better as skill to use
not so fast,mighty leap,roar need higher target caps 8 would be good start
at wills need some 200 damage boost since gwf have the strongest weapon but weakest damages on at wills
spining strike need higher damage and 10 target caps atm at wills outperform it in dps
swordmaster path need huge improvments: steel blizs need better proc rates or higher damage,
flouris need 20-30% better damage ,cresendo need a lot faster animation
Sorry if I'm hard but I believe that this new class balance is ridiculous. Lately, you have only enhanced the GWF at expense of all other classes . Surely it was just reinforce this character in the past because it was really weak as a DPS . But now you're exaggerating. Lately players are redirecting to this class because it is completely unbalanced . Doing the calculations the GWF has a lot more damage on target compared to a TR and also has a lot more defense. So why bring in Dungeon or PVE when the TR can be easily replaced by a GWF . Secondly, I examine the GF . The GF has a lot of defense, but low damage . The benefits of giving in PVE are: Aggro Controlled adds and high defense. Now if we consider that a GWF has 60 percent of the defense of a GF but it does far more damage than the latter for what reason I should bring a GF in PVE when I can bring a GWF that has a lot more DPS , excellent defense and Vanguard with the new way of iron , even the skill to aggro ? The CW I think that's okay . There is no need to change it. It 's very balanced at the moment. Regarding the HR for which reason being a DPS we have to decrease its damage ? It has low defense and high DPS . is balanced then . The imbalance exists when a class has so much defense and attack. We must also consider that HR suffers much injury. So you have to give him some advantage. Think about the changes you're making to the gameplay because soon be released TESO so if you do wrong you will lose further changes many users.
Greetings Adventurers!
With some changes coming to the way Power interacts with player powers, we thought this was a good time to fix some issues with the Great Weapon Fighter and try to better define his Destroyer and Sentinel trees.
Overview
Deep Gash and Student of the Sword were both fairly problematic feats, being that they were very easy to reach, and Deep Gash was receiving way more damage than was ever intended. In some cases it could make up nearly 30% of the total damage output to some Great Weapon Fighters. Given this we wanted to fix this bug and move a lot of that damage deeper down the Destroyer tree to make them a much stronger DPS presence and provide them a more clear play cycle that rewarded smart use of powers and Unstoppable. To accomplish that goal we have made the following changes.
Feats: Steely Defense: This feat now correctly grants 4/8/12/16/20% of your Defense as Power.
Feats: Deep Gash: This feat no longer gains additional damage from the power that applies it.
Feats: Deep Gash: This feat can no longer crit. This feat now applies a bleed that ticks for 4/8/12/16/20% of your Power (up from 3/6/9/12/15%).
Feats: Deep Gash: This power no longer ticks immediately upon application. New applications will not reset the tick timer. Additionally this DoT now lasts 6 seconds (up from 5). It still ticks 6 times total.
Feats: Student of the Sword: REWORK Your Critical Strikes now lower your target's Damage Resistance to your attacks by 1/2/3/4/5%. This effect cannot stack.
Feats: Executioner's Strike: Indomitable Battle Strike now deals a bonus 6/12/18/24/30% bonus damage as the target's health diminishes (up from 2/3/6/8/10%).
Feats: Relentless Battle Fury: NEW This feat now grants an additional effect. Activating Roar, Takedown, or Battle Fury now grants you Relentless. Relentless causes you to ignore an additional 1/2/3/4/5% of the target's resistance. Relentless lasts 5 seconds.
Feats: Focused Destroyer: This feat now grants an additional .5/1/1.5/2/2.5% bonus damage per stack of Destroyer.
Feats: Battle Awareness: Savage advance now grants shorter cooldowns for 15 seconds (up from 5).
Feats: Destroyer's Purpose: NEW This feat now grants an additional effect. When you deal damage while Unstoppable, you gain a stack of Destroyer's Purpose (max 20). Each stack of Destroyer's Purpose increases your damage by 1%. Destroyer's Purpose lasts 20 seconds.
I think only sentinels should not be able to crit with deep gash. Destroyers and instigators should be able to crit.
Student of the sword should lower the target's DR by 2/4/6/8/10%, if specced on a destroyer or instigator.
In order to buff indomitable battle strike, you should first address it's main issue > animation time. It's way too long obviously and barely even connects since one can easily just step aside/dodge and not get hit.
20 stacks of destroyer's purpose with an 1% increase does not seem to be the best idea, unless the stacks never wear off which i doubt. One possible way to fix this problem would be to make the stacks grant 2/4/6/8/10/12/14/16/18/20% damage with 10 stacks.
Sorry if I'm hard but I believe that this new class balance is ridiculous. Lately, you have only enhanced the GWF at expense of all other classes . Surely it was just reinforce this character in the past because it was really weak as a DPS . But now you're exaggerating. Lately players are redirecting to this class because it is completely unbalanced . Doing the calculations the GWF has a lot more damage on target compared to a TR and also has a lot more defense. So why bring in Dungeon or PVE when the TR can be easily replaced by a GWF . Secondly, I examine the GF . The GF has a lot of defense, but low damage . The benefits of giving in PVE are: Aggro Controlled adds and high defense. Now if we consider that a GWF has 60 percent of the defense of a GF but it does far more damage than the latter for what reason I should bring a GF in PVE when I can bring a GWF that has a lot more DPS , excellent defense and Vanguard with the new way of iron , even the skill to aggro ? The CW I think that's okay . There is no need to change it. It 's very balanced at the moment. Regarding the HR for which reason being a DPS we have to decrease its damage ? It has low defense and high DPS . is balanced then . The imbalance exists when a class has so much defense and attack. We must also consider that HR suffers much injury. So you have to give him some advantage. Think about the changes you're making to the gameplay because soon be released TESO so if you do wrong you will lose further changes many users.
Interesting, someone with only one previous post comes into a balance thread and says "nerf GWFs they are OP in PvE, CWs are fine." totally ignoring the fact that CWs render every other class pretty much irrelevant in PvE.
That was quicker than expected, although I did suspect a lot of alt accounts were going to be coming out of retirement once CW balancing was mentioned however obliquely...
With all that in mind, please look at GWF performance alongside TR and HR as those are much closer to the performance values we would like to see. And we are aware of the struggle of Sentinels trying to hold threat and still be survivable. We want to examine tanking but we don't know when we will have something ready for that because it is a very difficult and complex set of changes to make Tanking feel gratifying without disabling gameplay for other players.
On re-reading your post I realised something that fundamentally affects the type of feedback you want.
So to clarify, does the highlighted line mean that you would like GWF, TR and HR performance to be the same, or that the current performance of the TR and HR is where you would want the GWF to be at and want us to provide suggestions that could reduce GWF's current damage while least affecting the 'feel' of how it currently plays?
Both of these options are fine (assuming there are no other outlier *cough* CW *cough* classes), but the required feedback is likely to be very different.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2014
Why not release harder content with better rewards, such as raiding, instead of nerfing all class damage to the TR/HR level (as this seems to be final intention).
Harder content where BiS chars have a purpose... where we need the CW and GWF to have huge AoE damage, but we also need GF to tank, DC to heal and TR/HR to have huge single target damage to compensate.
Because as I see it, you want to nerf damage and speed runs of dungeons, which are already extremely boring and not rewarding, no offense. If you don't offer anything else instead, we will just end up doing the same T2s and CN and VT forever for some measly AD and start hating the game, because now it will take ages, especially if you don't have perfects and r8+
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I greatly respect that a primarily CW player such as yourself, pers3phone, feels the need to come into this thread and support keeping the DPS of the PvE class that is closest to that of a CW the same. Sadly, we all know that there are purely partisan CW players around who would use the exactly the same argument to try to defend the Staus Quo of CW domination over all the other classes which would be bad for the game overall.
I really don't care about dominating Paingiver. GWFs that ran with me, and I ran with the best in the game, know that I don't run in front to pull stuff and am pretty much a lazy DPS, especially since the content is easy.
I stated many times that ALL damage dealing classes, if specced for damage, should be able to top the DPS charts. GWF was just getting there.
What I don't agree with however is how IV sent GWF acts in PVP: lots of damage, lots of survivability, lots of mobility and so on, especially in a Dominate the point context. It is as cheese as perma.
Pretty much such cheese needs to go.
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inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2014
Overview
Deep Gash and Student of the Sword were both fairly problematic feats, being that they were very easy to reach, and Deep Gash was receiving way more damage than was ever intended. In some cases it could make up nearly 30% of the total damage output to some Great Weapon Fighters. Given this we wanted to fix this bug and move a lot of that damage deeper down the Destroyer tree to make them a much stronger DPS presence and provide them a more clear play cycle that rewarded smart use of powers and Unstoppable. To accomplish that goal we have made the following changes.
First it's clear these are pvp oriented changes, rather than using your new tenacity stat to balance classes (the only thing tenacity is good for) you are changing the fundamental balance of the classes which is detrimental in pve.
It's clear from your changes to Deep Destroyer tree that you believe this 30% number, as you've adjusted some dest feats to not quite but almost make up for this alleged 30% loss.
However the average GWF was receiving 50% of his dmg from Deep Gash. High end GWFs, the ones who were *nearly* as good as CWs in terms of overall dmg, were receiving 60-70% of their dmg from Deep Gash.
Can you please adjust accordingly the base dmg of GWF, from at wills and base encounters, to make up the 30% loss, and then add the Destroyer changes to make up the other 30% loss. This would allow GWF to remain viable for PVE, though will still do less dmg and less useful than CW which we must infer is the one golden rule of Cryptic Design Law.
If the changes go through as is the GWF will return to the place you kept them from Open Beta through mod 2, useless in pve, yet finally just mediocre in pvp, which is your goal?
And on top of this, Student of the Sword nerf? This was our one debuff we brought to groups.
powerfull challenge feat should be changed to threat from 15% damage
con should give some less pvp powerfeull stat then resistance ignored
if u do not change this 2 things sentinel will be still to good on damage in pvp it will become even better then destroyer since we need to stack 3 destroyer buffs to can have bigger dps then sentinel in pvp with new changes
powerfull challenge feat should be changed to threat from 15% damage con should give some less pvp powerfeull stat then resistance ignored
if u do not change this 2 things sentinel will be still to good on damage in pvp it will become even better then destroyer since we need to stack 3 destroyer buffs to can have bigger dps then sentinel in pvp with new changes
Even if that is the case, wouldn't this majorly mess up a lot of current builds (at least until we have an initial ability reroll)?
Even if that is the case, wouldn't this majorly mess up a lot of current builds (at least until we have an initial ability reroll)?
this 2 things give 30%+damage and if u count 8% from mark it is 38%+15% from trample higher damage in pvp then swordmaster or 30% then iron destroyer this is just to much we will need to use roar+student+maxed stacks of destroyer on dps gwf and still would not come to 30% or 52% damage improvment in pvp
this 2 things give 30%+damage and if u count 8% from mark it is 38%+15% from trample higher damage in pvp then swordmaster or 30% then iron destroyer this is just to much we will need to use roar+student+maxed stacks of destroyer on dps gwf and still would not come to 38% damage improvment in pvp
Not disagreeing, just pointing out that without an initial ability respec option, this might make certain builds a lot less useful with relatively little they could do about it. Compare this with a change in feats/powers where the free respec enables you to completely adjust your character to the new situation.
EDIT: This refers only to the changes to CON of course.
Well, I still do not know the weight of the changes, so I will give my suggestions gwf aiming to give a great deal of damage "aoe" without harming pvp. Independent of the projection for classes, I believe the best thing to do, instead of bringing down an entire class, is to make it excellent in one respect, and fails in another.
Feedback: mechanicals destroyer
t3 feets
Executioner style / reaping strike: the initial bonus feet this is unsatisfactory. "2 ap" for dead is a sub t1 cw / renegade. The two possibilities that I see:
1-speed during unstoppable (decrease the charge in 0.1 / 0.2 / 0.3 / 0.4 / 0.5).
2 - full damage during unstoppable.
Rendless Battle fury: I do not know how much these are worth 5%, but ... I'd rather cut off the takedown and bring a generous bonus for battle fury and roar.
batle fury: Extend the time / damage bonus for Dailys.
roar: Extra determining or increasing the cap (without bleed, Determination fall enough).
T4 :
focused destroyer : The gwf flaw here : you create a pool of damage that fully works in single combat : the same time , this damage will be mitigated by hitting multiple targets , or even when unstoppable ( or both together ) . Gwf single focused not generate threat so it is useless as secundary defender. Thaumaturg not cease to protect the party aoes does a ton of damage (I'll talk about cw later ) .
The best way to balance the gwf feet is to bring the following logistics : instead of increasing the damage you focused destroyer in 7.5 , make this extra bonus a " blank check " : if I hit one enemy , this bonus will be 3.5 % hit 2 (simultaneously ) 7% 3 hit 10.5% , and so on ( x5 ) .
Again I must reiterate: the rise time bonus for 5 sec . 3 sec is lousy with reaping strike , lags , bugs ...
Battle awaraness :
" savage advanced " is counterproductive . It throws you and the enemy outside the " nuke area" and dont have a satisfactory damage . The Slam still ok , but has become a utility daily.
My "solution" would be to redo the mechanics of the savage advanced . The war cry could only serve to increase the final damage ( damage that would hypothetically against the horde will serve as an additional calculation on the final damage ... why gwf is a sadistic and feeds on fear ) .
Obviously , the power will not charge the enemy. Good synergy betwenn ibs + "S.A" ( and would be good with battle fury + focused destroyer proposed above ) .
T5
destroyer porpose :
beyond amazing delay brought by the system stacks , this will be a lot of repetition that gwf rocking the wicked strike + sure strike without any strategy while punishing others who are still trying to think "outside the box " , using marginalized powers.
As you can not punish one without punishing the other , then do the following : add a " painless Warcry " the unstoppable , and make the system stack is based on the amount of enemies around ( equal to the savage advanced ) . Of 1-5 enemies , give a fixed bonus ( extra 5% ? ) . From the fifth stack , the bonus could become more generous depending on the limit. Being more enemies = more damage , so less enemies = less damage , do not bring problems for pvp and leaving the single target for rogue .
The same effect could extend to the sentinel , by exchanging defense / threat.
To be democratic , extend this bonus just for basic powers of gwf ( excluding sm / iv / kensei /etc) .
The time of action of the bonus would be 5 sec + unstoppable ... would be funny to try to sustain the initial bonus .
Gwf would be a monster aoe , single circumstantially powerful, but flawed for pvp / valindra / fulminarox .
1 - the hr / rogue demonstrates complete dissatisfaction with his performance, comparative or not. if I do not design my gwf bias in "let's see what I can do better", but the "let's see what would make me unhappy" I really do not see reason to be here. Let's be honest not that this does not make sense.
2 - promises to nerf cw always, always, always served to keep the monopoly of the class. nobody will do with the cw what was done with the gwf in module1. And I do not want the players in my guild (cw/hr/rogue) leaving the game, and I need to play with a "hi_mommy52" that is uncompromising to the fact that I need to answer the phone.
Unofficially: create relationships between different powers of diferente classes and making same powers of the same class dont work together is the best way to bring balance.
Comments
To be perfectly frank, the CW is very much out of line right now. They provide too much damage and their AoEs don't really conform to the same damage rules as they ideally should. But we have looked at various reasons as to why they cause problems and some of that lies in their feats, some in their base ratios, some in target caps, and that is really quite a few dials to tune all at once. We are looking at where they belong and what role they need to fit into in combat, as well as ways to preserve some roles that players enjoy without making them the best option at all times.
With all that in mind, please look at GWF performance alongside TR and HR as those are much closer to the performance values we would like to see. And we are aware of the struggle of Sentinels trying to hold threat and still be survivable. We want to examine tanking but we don't know when we will have something ready for that because it is a very difficult and complex set of changes to make Tanking feel gratifying without disabling gameplay for other players.
Does it mean you will finally fix the CW bugs like Armor Penetration?
I have a lvl 60 CW/DC and a HR. Maybe you should bring the other classes up to CW lvl because the CW is a hell of fun class to play and not the other way around, points to inc HR "nerfs" or in other words IMHO the problem lays in the early game design. In Neverwinter Online the dungeons have way to much trash mobs plus CC issues and that favors CW way more then anything else.....
Maybe "steal" some idea how TSW build the Dungeons, points to e.g. Polaris.
Part 1: NW-DMFKR9RPL http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?427711-Brunnen-des-Lichts-Teil-1
Part 2: NW-DLBTN8W28 http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?444281-Brunnen-des-Lichts-Teil-2
Icewind Dale campaign Osthafen sehen & sterben (German)
NW-DMC3IOWAE http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?477201-Osthafen-sehen-amp-sterben
Maybe instigator should have been made more recovery based and the critical centric builds should have been left to destroyer? Recovery lends itself to being able to support and control a lot more often. Most of my more long cooldown moves are around 10-15 seconds right now while the others fall between 7-9 seconds. Since instigator tried to cater more towards controlling and support some retuning of the feats could have just as well went to that. The only thing now is that capstone has to be changed to something much better now as Destroyer's capstone is far better now with 20% damage that won't fall off, 10% encounter damage and determination from damage. 12% sometimes damage can't compete with a flat 20-30% always.
Lastly when does the 30% executioner bonus kick in? I never know if I am using battle strike to early. How much is Battle fury's damage buff fully upgraded. My guess is either 15-20% hopefully when I actually get epic gear I can get my Battle fury from 14 seconds to 10 so my buff only has a 5 second downtime. It adds a lot of group wide damage and doesn't cut into you damage as much because it gives that bonus to your encounters and your dailies.
Good to see this. I have some questions though:
1. For example I have 6000 Power and Rank 5 Deep Gash (the reworked one), am I gonna do a confirmed 240 damage per tick of Deep Gash or will this number be affected by external bonuses other than the removed criticals and initial power applied?
2. About new applications does not reset the tick timer for Deep Gash, may you elaborate a little further on this?
Thanks!
Good questions!
1. You will do 240 damage before resistance. The target then will apply resistance to this damage. Unfortunately because of the way ArPen (the stat works) it doesn't yet apply to this damage. However, other sources of resistance shredding will work (Student of the Sword for example). We are aware that ArPen not working on many DoTs feels really bad, and are investigating solutions to this problem.
2. This one is a little harder, so TIME FOR ASCII ART!
Lets Imagine this is a timeline of 6 seconds. For the purposes of it being 3:30 am I will draw it in .25 second intervals, as seen below.
0----1----2----3----4----5----6----
If you apply at zero (which is the default way to think about application) your first tick of damage will be at 1, then 2, then 3, and so on until it expires.
Before if you were to apply again quickly you would see ticks happen where the X's were (assuming your first application at 0)
0--(new application here)-1--x-2--x-3--x-4--x-5--x-6----
In the new system all that gets affected is the remaining duration. So if you apply at 0, no matter when you would crit again you will get ticks at 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and so forth. This also means that if you were to crit again at 2.25 seconds you would gain ticks at 7 and 8 as well (with the buff expiring at 8.25). So what this means in the shorthand is that you cannot "clip" an existing Deep Gash, or lose any ticks by critting again too quickly.
Hopefully that makes sense!
With that in mind you need to bring Destroyer DPS down to ~50% of it's current value while keeping Sentinel DPS roughly the same and buffing Instigator DPS. Right now you are nerfing Sentinel and Instigator DPS while trying to keep Destroyer DPS roughly the same. This is not solving anything, to be completely honest. In fact, you are looking completely in the wrong direction. Sentinel threat and survivability is more than fine, that never was an issue in PvE. The issue for most classes can be boiled down to "not enough dps" or "not enough control/support". For Sentinel that would be the first statement, while it would be both for the Instigator.
If you want to make tanking more desirable you should start looking at control/support spells and/or feats. Come and Get It is a nice place to start for example. Tie it closer to the Sentinel tree by giving it a feat that increases the range and adds a taunt to the targets. Make the marks more permanent and add a bonus for the rest of the group when attacking a marked target.
I'd want to have on of those Sentinels in my group!
Control or DPS-Buffs are the way to go because DPS and control is everything that counts in high-end PvE scenarios. Stacking DPS is a reality and will not stop with the next module. The classes that will do fine are those who provide either the most DPS or the best control/support.
HR are considered to be useless in PvE because they lack control/buffs and deal only average DPS.
TR are considered to be useless in PvE because they lack control/buffs and deal only below-average DPS.
GF are considered to be useless in PvE because they hit like a wet noodle while only offering a medium amount of control/buffs.
Instigators are unless in PvE because... What are Instigators supposed to be anyway?
Sentinels are less desirable in PvE because they have less DPS than a Destroyer while not offering more control/buffs.
And this is the direction you should be looking at in terms of PvE performance. Your proposed changes aren't really helping anyone except Destroyers who are the least ones to actually need any help. Your changes are making the Sentinel even less useful for groups and I have to ask why that is...
Nice, but how can feedback be given when the changes are not all in the same time? Atm if someone makes a group to go in a dungeon, they'll see CW doing it all! So guess the feedback cant be anything else but qq. Also if you cut the dmg in half are dungeons going to be reworked? I have in mind dracolich (sry this fight was bad from day one and never balanced for a rainbow party) and valindra, 2 encounters that are all about dmg.
That certainly did!
Thanks for the clear explanation, looking forward to testing this!
Thank you for your first statement, as this gives me hope that I can eventually play non-CW classes at endgame and not feel I am handicapping my party.
Second, right now GWF > HR, TR, GF at endgame. However, you choose to normalize this issue in the short -term (reducing or increasing damage) something has to be done as these classes are frankly undesirable. My suggestion is to buff the AoE damage of the conqueror line of GF to around 90-100% of a GWFs Destroyer line. The HR AoE damage should be increased as well. In the current endgame setup, TR's single target damage is irrelevant and buffing it would cause huge issues in PvP. Perhaps add a lot more utility there in terms of group buffs and increase its AoE damage.
Off-topic:
Long-term dual specs and different power and feat damage/effects of powers in PvE and PvP would help solve a lot of issues.
Also making dungeons less of ridiculous add-fests would make non-CW stacked parties more viable.
new student sword def reduce 5% instead def reduce 45% this is now 1% dps instead 9% dps also solo instead party. why not just 45% def make it self only.
even if they only nerf gwf by amounts I said it still be ugly kid just bit less so
now lets look what it gets if destroyer new cap stone is 20% once you build it up and when you unstoppable if your lucky this be like 15% and lets be over top here say other feats add 5% dps so 20% dps and this is if your destroyer welcome back ugly kid no one will want you in groups and this is destroyer
sent you can not hold agro no way in hell you can don't matter how tanked and how much you reduce damage if you can not get agro you can not tank.
- Make Intimidation feat add a taunt onto the ability's so we can pick up agro
- Make Grudge Style Feat add threat to all ability's
- Make unstoppable Recovery add Threat 25% as well
- NON ABOVE benfit pvp at all and would prob not be anuff threat to even make up for dps lose from threat as losing 50% damage all most and gaining nothing so 50% threat buff is needed
instigator capstone works not being hit yet there no threat reduce and the cap stone don't makes up for what you lose from unstoppable. this is with out factoring in all aoe damage that stops capstone so ugly kid
-Vicious Advantage Combat advantage now grants you 5% crit and 5% crit severity as is not even adding 3% dps
- Nimble Runner Tanking feat on feat tree that aimed not to be hit change it to threat reduce %
- Allied Oppotunity nice feat but up duration to like 5 sec(3 sec is to short)
- Crippling strike needs give dps buff to spinning strike not just slow
- Fleet Footed Whener you control a target you lose 10% agro (less trash threat)
- Instigator's Vendeance Make it 20% dps+ your losing unstoppable for this feat as you can not be hit aoe and a lot stuff will still hit you and remove it so probly needs be more even
these just examples what needs doing and these would not even bring gwf back into line with before you nerf us by amount your planning.
most changes I have asked for effect pvp very little and don't even begin to make up for the nerf
PVP as Gwf will change very little its burst and prone lock that kills people not dots all these changes are doing is killing gwf in pve again
now lets Have quick look class devs play and I seen 3 out 4 devs play this class as there toon out 4 I seen 3 them cw tbh its insulting day 1 beta cw op cw all ways op its most op class out there. but where are the cw fixs as all ways there set for like year 2020
now lets look thing that's breaking pvp most emblem artefact where is its fix to stop 2h+ premade no where so 2 most broken things get ignored once again its just insulting over half my pvp friends left game and about 25% pve friends have left the game.
Devs priority seems to be breaking game or fixing whats not broken when biggest issues all ways get back seat.
if you car has scratch on it and engine not working you fix engine first not the scratch as all ways you ignore biggest most broken issues or fix what is not broken Example power yes mega complex not its most simple stat out there no demising no cap all other stats more complex.
I don't know why we even give feed back report bugs ptr ignored
tencity sucks made pvp much more broken you forced it in
elo instead real ladder system that's working well not.
no premade que so we can not premade vs premade easy
Refinment system remake not needed
Sca what is the point
Artifacts pet passives over turned toons for pve and some pet passives still do not work at all yet you charge for them was not needed.
List is massive these just few exampls why so many people leaving your game
(feels like it was in better place in beta than it dose now)
Deep Gash was not problematic in PvP (15% damage), and in PvE why care if GWF deals lots of DPS? Let them do it and enjoy themselves.
So I can only hope that the new changes will make up for ALL the lost damage. I really hope GWF can keep just as much PvE viability as they have now.
As for PvP, the issues, as specified by pkdeadly above, were Threatening Rush spam, all time every time, with lots of damage and debuffing, and the incoming FLS/Takedown/IBS combo that followed.
Was Deep Gash broken? Maybe. If it REALLY was, then it's OK you're fixing it.
But please make sure PvE GWF viability (through DPS) remains the same, hence buffs in other places are needed to make up for lost DG damage.
Not partially, but fully.
I'm curious to see what you will propose for all of this.
For feat, did you mean like Assailing Force from Thaum path ?
If yes, can we expect to see some Thaum/Renegade feat change to make it on par with Oppressor damage ?
Will it be the end of infinite target for Icy terrain ?
Can we expect change like this : if it's a control power, it deal low damage but can affect more target ?
That doesn't need to be fixed. If you want aggro control, take a GF with you. Simple.
As an altoholic whose favorite class is a GWF, I think the priority has to be that ALL classes are balanced. If this can be done by buffing other classes that is the better option, but if there has to be some reduction in GWF damage I can live with that.
Otherwise you open the door for players of whatever is the dominant PvE class to simply start parroting the constant excuse "BUFF everyone else, don't reduce my damage".
I greatly respect that a primarily CW player such as yourself, pers3phone, feels the need to come into this thread and support keeping the DPS of the PvE class that is closest to that of a CW the same. Sadly, we all know that there are purely partisan CW players around who would use the exactly the same argument to try to defend the Staus Quo of CW domination over all the other classes which would be bad for the game overall.
not so fast,mighty leap,roar need higher target caps 8 would be good start
at wills need some 200 damage boost since gwf have the strongest weapon but weakest damages on at wills
spining strike need higher damage and 10 target caps atm at wills outperform it in dps
swordmaster path need huge improvments: steel blizs need better proc rates or higher damage,
flouris need 20-30% better damage ,cresendo need a lot faster animation
I think only sentinels should not be able to crit with deep gash. Destroyers and instigators should be able to crit.
Student of the sword should lower the target's DR by 2/4/6/8/10%, if specced on a destroyer or instigator.
In order to buff indomitable battle strike, you should first address it's main issue > animation time. It's way too long obviously and barely even connects since one can easily just step aside/dodge and not get hit.
20 stacks of destroyer's purpose with an 1% increase does not seem to be the best idea, unless the stacks never wear off which i doubt. One possible way to fix this problem would be to make the stacks grant 2/4/6/8/10/12/14/16/18/20% damage with 10 stacks.
Just my 75 1/2 cents
Interesting, someone with only one previous post comes into a balance thread and says "nerf GWFs they are OP in PvE, CWs are fine." totally ignoring the fact that CWs render every other class pretty much irrelevant in PvE.
That was quicker than expected, although I did suspect a lot of alt accounts were going to be coming out of retirement once CW balancing was mentioned however obliquely...
On re-reading your post I realised something that fundamentally affects the type of feedback you want.
So to clarify, does the highlighted line mean that you would like GWF, TR and HR performance to be the same, or that the current performance of the TR and HR is where you would want the GWF to be at and want us to provide suggestions that could reduce GWF's current damage while least affecting the 'feel' of how it currently plays?
Both of these options are fine (assuming there are no other outlier *cough* CW *cough* classes), but the required feedback is likely to be very different.
Harder content where BiS chars have a purpose... where we need the CW and GWF to have huge AoE damage, but we also need GF to tank, DC to heal and TR/HR to have huge single target damage to compensate.
Because as I see it, you want to nerf damage and speed runs of dungeons, which are already extremely boring and not rewarding, no offense. If you don't offer anything else instead, we will just end up doing the same T2s and CN and VT forever for some measly AD and start hating the game, because now it will take ages, especially if you don't have perfects and r8+
I really don't care about dominating Paingiver. GWFs that ran with me, and I ran with the best in the game, know that I don't run in front to pull stuff and am pretty much a lazy DPS, especially since the content is easy.
I stated many times that ALL damage dealing classes, if specced for damage, should be able to top the DPS charts. GWF was just getting there.
What I don't agree with however is how IV sent GWF acts in PVP: lots of damage, lots of survivability, lots of mobility and so on, especially in a Dominate the point context. It is as cheese as perma.
Pretty much such cheese needs to go.
First it's clear these are pvp oriented changes, rather than using your new tenacity stat to balance classes (the only thing tenacity is good for) you are changing the fundamental balance of the classes which is detrimental in pve.
It's clear from your changes to Deep Destroyer tree that you believe this 30% number, as you've adjusted some dest feats to not quite but almost make up for this alleged 30% loss.
However the average GWF was receiving 50% of his dmg from Deep Gash. High end GWFs, the ones who were *nearly* as good as CWs in terms of overall dmg, were receiving 60-70% of their dmg from Deep Gash.
Can you please adjust accordingly the base dmg of GWF, from at wills and base encounters, to make up the 30% loss, and then add the Destroyer changes to make up the other 30% loss. This would allow GWF to remain viable for PVE, though will still do less dmg and less useful than CW which we must infer is the one golden rule of Cryptic Design Law.
If the changes go through as is the GWF will return to the place you kept them from Open Beta through mod 2, useless in pve, yet finally just mediocre in pvp, which is your goal?
And on top of this, Student of the Sword nerf? This was our one debuff we brought to groups.
con should give some less pvp powerfeull stat then resistance ignored
if u do not change this 2 things sentinel will be still to good on damage in pvp it will become even better then destroyer since we need to stack 3 destroyer buffs to can have bigger dps then sentinel in pvp with new changes
Even if that is the case, wouldn't this majorly mess up a lot of current builds (at least until we have an initial ability reroll)?
this 2 things give 30%+damage and if u count 8% from mark it is 38%+15% from trample higher damage in pvp then swordmaster or 30% then iron destroyer this is just to much we will need to use roar+student+maxed stacks of destroyer on dps gwf and still would not come to 30% or 52% damage improvment in pvp
Not disagreeing, just pointing out that without an initial ability respec option, this might make certain builds a lot less useful with relatively little they could do about it. Compare this with a change in feats/powers where the free respec enables you to completely adjust your character to the new situation.
EDIT: This refers only to the changes to CON of course.
Feedback: mechanicals destroyer
t3 feets
Executioner style / reaping strike: the initial bonus feet this is unsatisfactory. "2 ap" for dead is a sub t1 cw / renegade. The two possibilities that I see:
1-speed during unstoppable (decrease the charge in 0.1 / 0.2 / 0.3 / 0.4 / 0.5).
2 - full damage during unstoppable.
Rendless Battle fury: I do not know how much these are worth 5%, but ... I'd rather cut off the takedown and bring a generous bonus for battle fury and roar.
batle fury: Extend the time / damage bonus for Dailys.
roar: Extra determining or increasing the cap (without bleed, Determination fall enough).
T4 :
focused destroyer : The gwf flaw here : you create a pool of damage that fully works in single combat : the same time , this damage will be mitigated by hitting multiple targets , or even when unstoppable ( or both together ) . Gwf single focused not generate threat so it is useless as secundary defender. Thaumaturg not cease to protect the party aoes does a ton of damage (I'll talk about cw later ) .
The best way to balance the gwf feet is to bring the following logistics : instead of increasing the damage you focused destroyer in 7.5 , make this extra bonus a " blank check " : if I hit one enemy , this bonus will be 3.5 % hit 2 (simultaneously ) 7% 3 hit 10.5% , and so on ( x5 ) .
Again I must reiterate: the rise time bonus for 5 sec . 3 sec is lousy with reaping strike , lags , bugs ...
Battle awaraness :
" savage advanced " is counterproductive . It throws you and the enemy outside the " nuke area" and dont have a satisfactory damage . The Slam still ok , but has become a utility daily.
My "solution" would be to redo the mechanics of the savage advanced . The war cry could only serve to increase the final damage ( damage that would hypothetically against the horde will serve as an additional calculation on the final damage ... why gwf is a sadistic and feeds on fear ) .
Obviously , the power will not charge the enemy. Good synergy betwenn ibs + "S.A" ( and would be good with battle fury + focused destroyer proposed above ) .
T5
destroyer porpose :
beyond amazing delay brought by the system stacks , this will be a lot of repetition that gwf rocking the wicked strike + sure strike without any strategy while punishing others who are still trying to think "outside the box " , using marginalized powers.
As you can not punish one without punishing the other , then do the following : add a " painless Warcry " the unstoppable , and make the system stack is based on the amount of enemies around ( equal to the savage advanced ) . Of 1-5 enemies , give a fixed bonus ( extra 5% ? ) . From the fifth stack , the bonus could become more generous depending on the limit. Being more enemies = more damage , so less enemies = less damage , do not bring problems for pvp and leaving the single target for rogue .
The same effect could extend to the sentinel , by exchanging defense / threat.
To be democratic , extend this bonus just for basic powers of gwf ( excluding sm / iv / kensei /etc) .
The time of action of the bonus would be 5 sec + unstoppable ... would be funny to try to sustain the initial bonus .
Gwf would be a monster aoe , single circumstantially powerful, but flawed for pvp / valindra / fulminarox .
1 - the hr / rogue demonstrates complete dissatisfaction with his performance, comparative or not. if I do not design my gwf bias in "let's see what I can do better", but the "let's see what would make me unhappy" I really do not see reason to be here. Let's be honest not that this does not make sense.
2 - promises to nerf cw always, always, always served to keep the monopoly of the class. nobody will do with the cw what was done with the gwf in module1. And I do not want the players in my guild (cw/hr/rogue) leaving the game, and I need to play with a "hi_mommy52" that is uncompromising to the fact that I need to answer the phone.
Unofficially: create relationships between different powers of diferente classes and making same powers of the same class dont work together is the best way to bring balance.