You mean so people can que for PVP naked then equip all their 16K GS items once in the match?
No the system can lock in what they que with and when they enter pvp it puts all that stuff on them (and if they got rid of it aka bank etc it leaves the slot empty)
No the system can lock in what they que with and when they enter pvp it puts all that stuff on them (and if they got rid of it aka bank etc it leaves the slot empty)
I'm sure this can be done, but "the system" doesn't do it now and we don't know that Cryptic will try or care to implement this. So until then...
Foundry - Fight Club? (nw-dluqbofu7)
- JailBreak (in development)
For reasons already given many, many times, this is a well-intentioned idea that would not work well. GS is too easy to manipulate, is not true representation of all equipment, and needs to stay out of matchmaking unless perhaps you want a separate "beginners' queue" for players 9k and under..and even then someone will just twink a 9k alt with perfect enchantments while they farm glory and seals as desired.
Reckless Attacker, Steely Defense, these will artificially inflate gs on the gf and gwf respectively. Not all classes have such feats, and not all gfs or gwfs will nessecarily have the feats. This means that gs doesn't accurately even provide a cross class comparison of power ever.
Make an epic PVP queue with a 12k gs requirement to filter out the people just doing PVP for daily rewards from those who actually want to compete against other players.
Yeees make the game consider GS as a factor, let me queue in green gear, swap gear when i enter pvp, and roll on the red team. That would be awesome!
Or just drop this silly idea. Gear score and gaming skills are somewhat related but it's more about how long you played pve in this game, which means nothing at all.
0
pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2014
A smarter MMO calculated GS by the sum of maximum GS/item slot, including all items wore or o inventory.
GS should be a determining factor in matchmaking. You make three brackets. Bracket 1 max GS 12k, bracket 2 max GS 15k Bracket three, skies the limit!!! Heyyy all you uber geared pvp freakazoids have at it with each other!! Yes you can do this. Make it so you can't swap gear while queued for pvp or while in a battleground. Don't tell me it can't be done, don't tell me it will cause an inconvenience. It's already been done in other MMO's and it works just fine. Also class stacking is bad for pvp. I'd looove to see it made so mno more then one of each class on any team period. As it stands the matchmaking elo system in neverwinter is an abject failure. I'm an average pvper with average pvp gear,4 piece grim set, lesser vorpal, lesser SF and rank 6 enchants. I have done nothing but pvp on my HR since this patch hit. Enough to earn that grim set jewlery,a weapon annnd the artifact so that should tell how much I've pvped since said patch went live. I have for 85% of those matches either gone against a team of complete fresh 60's in I don't even know what kind of gear oooor a premade of uber pvper freakazoids. The matches are every bit as lopsided one way or the other now as they were before the patch.
A simple solution is making character build much more important and balanced and gear much less important. For example anything that significantly increases crit chance or severity should be a feat requiring points not put into an equally important feat, not a simple weapon enchant that has absolutely no counter balance. I don't ever see this happening in NWO but it really is what is needed.
Frankly the biggest problem is that not enough people actually want to play NW PvP.
This leaves the queue in a constant state of indecision (make you wait for ages for a balanced match, or pop immediately and give you a kerbstomp/kerbstomping).
Add to this the class distribution is shot to hell (like ten HR/TRs for every DC), and the fact there's (depending on class) a giant difference between a PvE and a PvP specced character, yet both use the same queue, and it's just...messy.
Trying to produce balanced teams would certainly introduce longer queues, but even a rudimentary basic stab at some sort of team balancing would be nice, since right now it seems to be a complete coin-toss (I've had matches with 3 DCs + 2 CWs on one team and 3 GWFs and 2 GFs on the other, an insane yet incredibly easily fixed match-up).
A smarter MMO calculated GS by the sum of maximum GS/item slot, including all items wore or o inventory.
No cheating around this.
Yeah so you want to determine what match the pvp queue makes based on how much people have farmed pve? That makes sense and isn't silly at all. :rolleyes:
0
pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Yeah so you want to determine what match the pvp queue makes based on how much people have farmed pve? That makes sense and isn't silly at all. :rolleyes:
Nah I just stated that there are ways around cheating for GS.
Also that other smarter MMO didn't have stupid stuff like 18K GS in PVE gear and 15kin PvP gear with same enchants, or GFs having inflated GS and so on. Basically GS was much more reliable (although, obviously an idiot could stack bad stats and have same GS as tweaked pro player).
My suggestion for fixing the still very imbalanced matches (just had a series of few, queued up as full 5 man with some of the best PvPers in the game and we got repeatedly matched with what seemed to be 10K pugs) is:
- ladders
- team registration required for participation in ladder
- stricter brackets
- remove reasons for PvE players to PvP; take out all PvE worthy rewards
- random queue for the lulz without impact on rankings and ladders
- organized Premade vs Premade support
Many of these things should come in M3 so we're on the right path.
GS should be a determining factor in matchmaking. You make three brackets. Bracket 1 max GS 12k, bracket 2 max GS 15k Bracket three, skies the limit!!! Heyyy all you uber geared pvp freakazoids have at it with each other!!
What about the 15k PvE player who is really inexperienced at PvP, and not specced or geared for it? Also, you seem not to understand the really honkingly obvious point that ranking against win/loss DOES NOT NEED TO SPECIFICALLY MICROMANAGE FOR GEAR. If the stuff you're doing- your gear, your spec and your technique make you win or lose, you will be matched against people of broadly comparable "winnyness" or "lossyness".
Whether they're winning because they have excellent gear, amazing skill, are American and playing three hops from the data centre or merely a TR doing POB/SE zero-skill exploit spam, the fact remains, ALL OF THESE THINGS CONTRIBUTE TO WHO THEY CAN BEAT. Who you beat changes your ELO, and thus who you're matched against.
What is so hard about this to understand? I am really feeling like I'm on a GIS forum talking to flat earthers or something. Gamers should be smart enough to get this stuff
And why isn't the ping considered? If your ping is 300 and the red guy's is 50 then you're pwnd. You think you're dodging but you're not. You think you're hitting but you're not
English is not my first language.
0
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
And why isn't the ping considered? If your ping is 300 and the red guy's is 50 then you're pwnd. You think you're dodging but you're not. You think you're hitting but you're not
They were being sarcastic/joking.
The Elo System is a skill rating which goal is to match players who have (near) equal chance of winning.
As you certainly agree lag will effect your chance at winning.
Which is what both morsitans and Kat have been saying. Anything which effects your ability to win such as playskill, gear, build, connection, etc. will effect your Elo Rating. Each one of those on its own is an artificial variable but altogether they factor your chance to win.
A high gear score will increase your chances of winning while a bad connection will hurt it. If you put people together only based on Gear Score people will be barred out of the content because their connection or playskill can not compete with the average person of similar gear score.
So as such something like the Elo rating system does everything everybody is asking for equally. It will match players based on their chances of winning against each other instead of any one variable or falsely weighting one variable over another. However it will take time for people to get accurately ranked.
All they have to do is make it so you CANNOT swap equipment after queuing for a PvP match. Not that complicated...
There might be people out there that want to PvE while waiting with the gear they bought. They don't want to make their PvP gear dirty with blood from stinkin' witherer's!
Basically, gear lock @queuing would add an additional note to the leaver penalty. So you would be unable to do stuff before PvP and after PvP if you disco at a bad moment. Bring it on!
Imaginary Friends are the best friends you can have!
I don't understand why GS isn't a factor with the matchmaking system. It doesn't even have to be exact but it needs to be considered with how vast of a swing it causes. I just had a game with my TR at 9k. Everyone on the other team was 16k+ while mine was under 10k. The match should never be launched if there is over a 4k difference in GS average. After 50+ games post patch elo has not evened out and the games are as unbalanced as ever.
Or seeing as it's STILL possible for a 9k TR to face a 16k+ team all with Shard of Valindras crown, then the ability to leave needs to come back. Nothing has been fixed.
i understand the problem i tent to think the same when in pvp and meat overpowered opponents. but i also is thinking just wait till im in you league i punch you all you to smithereens for doing this to me
Nah I just stated that there are ways around cheating for GS.
Also that other smarter MMO didn't have stupid stuff like 18K GS in PVE gear and 15kin PvP gear with same enchants, or GFs having inflated GS and so on. Basically GS was much more reliable (although, obviously an idiot could stack bad stats and have same GS as tweaked pro player).
My suggestion for fixing the still very imbalanced matches (just had a series of few, queued up as full 5 man with some of the best PvPers in the game and we got repeatedly matched with what seemed to be 10K pugs) is:
- ladders
- team registration required for participation in ladder
- stricter brackets
- remove reasons for PvE players to PvP; take out all PvE worthy rewards
- random queue for the lulz without impact on rankings and ladders
- organized Premade vs Premade support
Many of these things should come in M3 so we're on the right path.
This is something I could deal with, except the lack of rewards for playing pvp. Rewards are quite important in a MMO, and I'm no different from the average player. If there's no reward I won't play it, even if it's fun, enjoyable, and appealing. Rewards have to be there. Currently the pvp ones are a bit small once you're done grinding your profund gear, and it's mostly ADs and an artifact. Nothing game breaking.
And even though I'm sometimes an elitist jerk, I'm not selfish enough to wish having only hardcore pvp players playing pvp. It's something I'd like everyone to play and enjoy instead, just to share the joy of killing your foe, be it a 9k guy when you're a 7k rookie in green gear. So they should instead increase the pvp rewards and add a lot of cool stuff, like new OP artifacts, unique boons, unique gear, and so on.
Oh god no. If they do any of that, it should be stuff that's usable in PvP only, because the one thing PvP doesn't need is more people feeling compelled to enter that hateful poorly-balanced, crudely implemented place just so they can get minor advantages in PvE.
PvP is sometimes wonderful, but a good 80-90% of the time it's a truly miserable experience, and I'm pretty sure that a decent percentage of the players contributing to the 'being kerbstomped, raging, and then sitting in the campfire' side of that experience are purely there for PvE-related artifact grind.
PvP should be its own reward, really (note: many, many PvP games have no rewards beyond entertainment and the satisfaction of playing well, and some games that were very enjoyable have actually been largely ruined by the introduction of rewards -looking at you, TF2), but if you need additional rewards I'd hope for something that either provides a minor bonus in PvP only, or is essentially cosmetic. Hats yes, boons no.
- ladders
- team registration required for participation in ladder
- stricter brackets
- remove reasons for PvE players to PvP; take out all PvE worthy rewards
- random queue for the lulz without impact on rankings and ladders
- organized Premade vs Premade support
Many of these things should come in M3 so we're on the right path.
If they work, those will, of course, attract the "e-sports" crowd in greater numbers, rendering the game toxic to most normal human beings due to the sheer levels of incivility and unpleasantness involved. It makes me wish that the PvP components fall flat on their collective bum, or that TESO succeeds, so that there's something worth playing.
There might be people out there that want to PvE while waiting with the gear they bought. They don't want to make their PvP gear dirty with blood from stinkin' witherer's!
Basically, gear lock @queuing would add an additional note to the leaver penalty. So you would be unable to do stuff before PvP and after PvP if you disco at a bad moment. Bring it on!
What about the 15k PvE player who is really inexperienced at PvP, and not specced or geared for it? Also, you seem not to understand the really honkingly obvious point that ranking against win/loss DOES NOT NEED TO SPECIFICALLY MICROMANAGE FOR GEAR. If the stuff you're doing- your gear, your spec and your technique make you win or lose, you will be matched against people of broadly comparable "winnyness" or "lossyness".
Whether they're winning because they have excellent gear, amazing skill, are American and playing three hops from the data centre or merely a TR doing POB/SE zero-skill exploit spam, the fact remains, ALL OF THESE THINGS CONTRIBUTE TO WHO THEY CAN BEAT. Who you beat changes your ELO, and thus who you're matched against.
What is so hard about this to understand? I am really feeling like I'm on a GIS forum talking to flat earthers or something. Gamers should be smart enough to get this stuff
I am an average pvper with average pvp gear. Which is always the single largest group of pvpers in any game. I should be matched against and with average pvpers with average pvp gear. I am not being matched this way. I am either being matched with uber elites and against fresh 60's or vice versa.Teamed with 2 cws and 2 rogues against 2 GF's 2 GWF's and a DC.
I am an average pvper with average pvp gear. Which is always the single largest group of pvpers in any game. I should be matched against and with average pvpers with average pvp gear. I am not being matched this way. I am either being matched with uber elites and against fresh 60's or vice versa.Teamed with 2 cws and 2 rogues against 2 GF's 2 GWF's and a DC.
It will take time to accurately rate everybody. Just because you have played 100 matches does not mean you or your opponent s are accurately rated.
I have avoided putting time frames on how long it will take because there is no answer to that but do understand it only gets better with time. The more time that passes the better the system works. Indefinitely.
Weeks from now it will be better. Months from now it will be even better. Two years from now it will be even better. Three years from now it will be even better. And it will never actually be perfect as it will always improve with the number of PvP matches players play.
It will take time to accurately rate everybody. Just because you have played 100 matches does not mean you or your opponent s are accurately rated.
I have avoided putting time frames on how long it will take because there is no answer to that but do understand it only gets better with time. The more time that passes the better the system works. Indefinitely.
Weeks from now it will be better. Months from now it will be even better. Two years from now it will be even better. Three years from now it will be even better. And it will never actually be perfect as it will always improve with the number of PvP matches players play.
ROFL!! ... ehm... sorry m8, but really your last post would perfectly fit in a professional politician speech :rolleyes:
... I do hope the developers have a slightly tighter schedule in mind to make things work...
0
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited March 2014
I didn't say it would take that long to function well just that it will continue to function better as time goes on.
The truth is there is no magic number that will make it work. None.
The initial rankings is something that just has to be persevered through. There will be a lot of rubberbanding occurring until the majority of people are ranked at least near appropriately.
What is happening right now is players are ranked higher or lower than where they should be. In a mature Elo System this isn't a major issue because that is expected to occur occasionally. However since the vast majority of people are inaccurately rated a bouncing effect.
Combine this with leavers and AFK players causing players to win matches they should have lost...
Over time these odd variables will dissipate. Time is the number one factor. Nothing will fix the matches more than time...
And let's be brutally honest...
It has been a year of absolutely no strategic match making system...
Is a period of turbulence which is still better than before seriously such a horrible issue. So many of the people complaining are those who were content with no match making system...
Comments
No the system can lock in what they que with and when they enter pvp it puts all that stuff on them (and if they got rid of it aka bank etc it leaves the slot empty)
I agree with this
I'm sure this can be done, but "the system" doesn't do it now and we don't know that Cryptic will try or care to implement this. So until then...
- JailBreak (in development)
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
Here's why gs is not a good measure of anything.
Reckless Attacker, Steely Defense, these will artificially inflate gs on the gf and gwf respectively. Not all classes have such feats, and not all gfs or gwfs will nessecarily have the feats. This means that gs doesn't accurately even provide a cross class comparison of power ever.
Or just drop this silly idea. Gear score and gaming skills are somewhat related but it's more about how long you played pve in this game, which means nothing at all.
No cheating around this.
Jugger Conq GF
....
This leaves the queue in a constant state of indecision (make you wait for ages for a balanced match, or pop immediately and give you a kerbstomp/kerbstomping).
Add to this the class distribution is shot to hell (like ten HR/TRs for every DC), and the fact there's (depending on class) a giant difference between a PvE and a PvP specced character, yet both use the same queue, and it's just...messy.
Trying to produce balanced teams would certainly introduce longer queues, but even a rudimentary basic stab at some sort of team balancing would be nice, since right now it seems to be a complete coin-toss (I've had matches with 3 DCs + 2 CWs on one team and 3 GWFs and 2 GFs on the other, an insane yet incredibly easily fixed match-up).
Yeah so you want to determine what match the pvp queue makes based on how much people have farmed pve? That makes sense and isn't silly at all. :rolleyes:
Nah I just stated that there are ways around cheating for GS.
Also that other smarter MMO didn't have stupid stuff like 18K GS in PVE gear and 15kin PvP gear with same enchants, or GFs having inflated GS and so on. Basically GS was much more reliable (although, obviously an idiot could stack bad stats and have same GS as tweaked pro player).
My suggestion for fixing the still very imbalanced matches (just had a series of few, queued up as full 5 man with some of the best PvPers in the game and we got repeatedly matched with what seemed to be 10K pugs) is:
- ladders
- team registration required for participation in ladder
- stricter brackets
- remove reasons for PvE players to PvP; take out all PvE worthy rewards
- random queue for the lulz without impact on rankings and ladders
- organized Premade vs Premade support
Many of these things should come in M3 so we're on the right path.
What about the 15k PvE player who is really inexperienced at PvP, and not specced or geared for it? Also, you seem not to understand the really honkingly obvious point that ranking against win/loss DOES NOT NEED TO SPECIFICALLY MICROMANAGE FOR GEAR. If the stuff you're doing- your gear, your spec and your technique make you win or lose, you will be matched against people of broadly comparable "winnyness" or "lossyness".
Whether they're winning because they have excellent gear, amazing skill, are American and playing three hops from the data centre or merely a TR doing POB/SE zero-skill exploit spam, the fact remains, ALL OF THESE THINGS CONTRIBUTE TO WHO THEY CAN BEAT. Who you beat changes your ELO, and thus who you're matched against.
What is so hard about this to understand? I am really feeling like I'm on a GIS forum talking to flat earthers or something. Gamers should be smart enough to get this stuff
Aaaaargh!
Coffee nearly came out of my nose. You came quite close to being billed for a new keyboard there.
They were being sarcastic/joking.
The Elo System is a skill rating which goal is to match players who have (near) equal chance of winning.
As you certainly agree lag will effect your chance at winning.
Which is what both morsitans and Kat have been saying. Anything which effects your ability to win such as playskill, gear, build, connection, etc. will effect your Elo Rating. Each one of those on its own is an artificial variable but altogether they factor your chance to win.
A high gear score will increase your chances of winning while a bad connection will hurt it. If you put people together only based on Gear Score people will be barred out of the content because their connection or playskill can not compete with the average person of similar gear score.
So as such something like the Elo rating system does everything everybody is asking for equally. It will match players based on their chances of winning against each other instead of any one variable or falsely weighting one variable over another. However it will take time for people to get accurately ranked.
Basically, gear lock @queuing would add an additional note to the leaver penalty. So you would be unable to do stuff before PvP and after PvP if you disco at a bad moment. Bring it on!
i understand the problem i tent to think the same when in pvp and meat overpowered opponents. but i also is thinking just wait till im in you league i punch you all you to smithereens for doing this to me
This is something I could deal with, except the lack of rewards for playing pvp. Rewards are quite important in a MMO, and I'm no different from the average player. If there's no reward I won't play it, even if it's fun, enjoyable, and appealing. Rewards have to be there. Currently the pvp ones are a bit small once you're done grinding your profund gear, and it's mostly ADs and an artifact. Nothing game breaking.
And even though I'm sometimes an elitist jerk, I'm not selfish enough to wish having only hardcore pvp players playing pvp. It's something I'd like everyone to play and enjoy instead, just to share the joy of killing your foe, be it a 9k guy when you're a 7k rookie in green gear. So they should instead increase the pvp rewards and add a lot of cool stuff, like new OP artifacts, unique boons, unique gear, and so on.
PvP is sometimes wonderful, but a good 80-90% of the time it's a truly miserable experience, and I'm pretty sure that a decent percentage of the players contributing to the 'being kerbstomped, raging, and then sitting in the campfire' side of that experience are purely there for PvE-related artifact grind.
PvP should be its own reward, really (note: many, many PvP games have no rewards beyond entertainment and the satisfaction of playing well, and some games that were very enjoyable have actually been largely ruined by the introduction of rewards -looking at you, TF2), but if you need additional rewards I'd hope for something that either provides a minor bonus in PvP only, or is essentially cosmetic. Hats yes, boons no.
If they work, those will, of course, attract the "e-sports" crowd in greater numbers, rendering the game toxic to most normal human beings due to the sheer levels of incivility and unpleasantness involved. It makes me wish that the PvP components fall flat on their collective bum, or that TESO succeeds, so that there's something worth playing.
PvP queues for me, have a short wait time.
I am an average pvper with average pvp gear. Which is always the single largest group of pvpers in any game. I should be matched against and with average pvpers with average pvp gear. I am not being matched this way. I am either being matched with uber elites and against fresh 60's or vice versa.Teamed with 2 cws and 2 rogues against 2 GF's 2 GWF's and a DC.
It will take time to accurately rate everybody. Just because you have played 100 matches does not mean you or your opponent s are accurately rated.
I have avoided putting time frames on how long it will take because there is no answer to that but do understand it only gets better with time. The more time that passes the better the system works. Indefinitely.
Weeks from now it will be better. Months from now it will be even better. Two years from now it will be even better. Three years from now it will be even better. And it will never actually be perfect as it will always improve with the number of PvP matches players play.
ROFL!! ... ehm... sorry m8, but really your last post would perfectly fit in a professional politician speech :rolleyes:
... I do hope the developers have a slightly tighter schedule in mind to make things work...
The truth is there is no magic number that will make it work. None.
The initial rankings is something that just has to be persevered through. There will be a lot of rubberbanding occurring until the majority of people are ranked at least near appropriately.
What is happening right now is players are ranked higher or lower than where they should be. In a mature Elo System this isn't a major issue because that is expected to occur occasionally. However since the vast majority of people are inaccurately rated a bouncing effect.
Combine this with leavers and AFK players causing players to win matches they should have lost...
Over time these odd variables will dissipate. Time is the number one factor. Nothing will fix the matches more than time...
And let's be brutally honest...
It has been a year of absolutely no strategic match making system...
Is a period of turbulence which is still better than before seriously such a horrible issue. So many of the people complaining are those who were content with no match making system...