We got ELO rating, now you find balanced fights more often than not, and will be almost always once the matchmaking is stable, now, people still lose and get angry, so... lets also consider GS, and forbid pots, armor swapping (i agree with this one, unequiping an armor and switching to another can take a whole hour, doesnt make sense to be done inmediatly), lets forbid also alts play with the advantage of AD and ressources their mains give... and if that way i still lose... lets forbid min maxing, builds i am unable to fight against properly, the whole TR and GWF classes... if i still manage to keep losing and keeping frustrated, i will demand to forbid people to play PvP more than 1 hour daily because that extra training is also UNFAIR, it makes them more skilled than me, if that still does not make me top of the class, i will ask for ban PvP for any account signed up more than 2 months ago... then PvP will be balanced!!!! i hope :P
Problem with that is some classes appear to have some kind of advantage in gs numbers - GF for example - I've seen GF's 18-20k gs.. ever seen a DC with that?
It doesn't matter, you could gear your character for the GS bracket you wanted to play in, plus, the GS could fluctuate by class instead of being static.
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twstdechoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 630Bounty Hunter
You have some people that will float to the top, some to the bottom, but most will be in the middle, regardless of GS... so you will still end up with huge GS discrepancies amongst similar ELO ratings.
You have some people that will float to the top, some to the bottom, but most will be in the middle, regardless of GS... so you will still end up with huge GS discrepancies amongst similar ELO ratings.
Right. Another reason to disregard gs/gear.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
You have some people that will float to the top, some to the bottom, but most will be in the middle, regardless of GS... so you will still end up with huge GS discrepancies amongst similar ELO ratings.
The thing is gear score is not directly equivalent to skill.
Two people with the exact same character would play slightly better or worse than each other. Some people will play above average and some people will play below. The rare few at the top will be the best players with the best gear. The people at the bottom will be the worst players with the worst gear.
Gear is not a magical number which directly equates to skill.
Just because a person has good gear does not mean they are a good player or vice versa.
The thing is gear score is not directly equivalent to skill.
Two people with the exact same character would play slightly better or worse than each other. Some people will play above average and some people will play below. The rare few at the top will be the best players with the best gear. The people at the bottom will be the worst players with the worst gear.
Gear is not a magical number which directly equates to skill.
Just because a person has good gear does not mean they are a good player or vice versa.
No one says gear is some magical number that equates to skill, but it's a HUGE advantage that can cover differences in skill or give equally skilled players a gigantic, non-magical (very real) advantage.
So, all things being equal, with my average ELO rating, I'm going to run into players that by far outclass my GS but still have a similar ELO rating, and I'm not going to stand much of a chance in those instances.
...Gear is not a magical number which directly equates to skill.
Just because a person has good gear does not mean they are a good player or vice versa.
The thing is gear score is not directly equivalent to skill.
Two people with the exact same character would play slightly better or worse than each other. Some people will play above average and some people will play below. The rare few at the top will be the best players with the best gear. The people at the bottom will be the worst players with the worst gear.
Gear is not a magical number which directly equates to skill.
Just because a person has good gear does not mean they are a good player or vice versa.
the problem is that i get grouped with people of 6-10k gs while i have 13k and have done far more than 30 matches. as a rogue, i will stomp anyone with 10k or less gs even if they fight me 3 vs 1. they might kill me, but i am highly likely to kill 2-3 of them and survive to keep on killing until they finally kill me and i have gone on a murdering spree for like 7-10 kills b4 suffering my 1st death (no regen and i never ran to a pot). it simply isn't a fair fight as they are simply too weak to even kill me with numbers.
the only class/build that actually can excel at low gs is a perma-rogue, but thats overpowered anyways.
Or someone could drop $100 and just get it all nice and easy, you don't "deserve" to win anything, you are not entitled to anything.
With that logic you are saying that everyone with low Gs is a "good" player and everyone with high GS is a "bad" player.
Just admit it, a 9k GS vs a 18k GS is a no brainer, unless the 18k is a blithering moron, you will lose. And don't go telling me that the 9k can be a "good player and win it", the 9k GS has most likely had less practice, has a lot lower stats, no armour set bonus, etc etc. Meanwhile the 18k has probably played multiple upon multiple games, has a huge stat advantage, set bonuses, boons, not to mention the experience of playing PvP more than the 9k.
Does it mean that a low GS will "never" beat a higher one? No it doesnt. But you cannot say that GS means NOTHING. That is an outright lie, so stop defending such bull****. If you want an even fair match, then make it an even fair match and stop half assing this system already.
pretty much this except far worse when u consider that 15k+ likely have perfects, emblem of seldarine (pre-healing depression), etc. so not a fair fight even for a 13k.
People will give themselves cognitive dissonance when they change their gear scores. They will tell themselves that they are only doing this so they can farm glory for better gear, and once they have better gear then they will start to fight fair and square. It's true that very few people would do it just because, but if they find justification for it, they will do it.
I admit after being slaughtered so many times it does feel nice to put on that two tier gear, get your stats where you want them, and then wipe the floor with some newbies because you realize you're not like them anymore. You don't want to remember when you were like them. It's different when the tables have turned, it's like a temptation.
The thing is gear score is not directly equivalent to skill.
Two people with the exact same character would play slightly better or worse than each other. Some people will play above average and some people will play below. The rare few at the top will be the best players with the best gear. The people at the bottom will be the worst players with the worst gear.
Gear is not a magical number which directly equates to skill.
Just because a person has good gear does not mean they are a good player or vice versa.
2 equal players, one has better gear = unfair outcome. how often does this have to be spelled out for the never played a competitive game crowd?
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
2 equal players, one has better gear = unfair outcome. how often does this have to be spelled out for the never played a competitive game crowd?
Very bad assumption.
I frequently win fights against higher gear score players and being in a very casual friendly guild I also see many players who do not play as well as their gear score. Players who absolutely will not ever have a decent match against players with much less gear score.
Gear is an advantage. It is not a rule.
Players can play above or below their gear score which is why it is not used as this all encompassing rule.
A five year old will not become a god by having 20K gear score. If the player doesn't have the timing, reaction time and power combinations they will still never be able to compete with the people who normally have high gear.
That is fact. Gear helps. It does not make them equal.
I frequently win fights against higher gear score players and being in a very casual friendly guild I also see many players who do not play as well as their gear score. Players who absolutely will not ever have a decent match against players with much less gear score.
Gear is an advantage. It is not a rule.
Players can play above or below their gear score which is why it is not used as this all encompassing rule.
A five year old will not become a god by having 20K gear score. If the player doesn't have the timing, reaction time and power combinations they will still never be able to compete with the people who normally have high gear.
That is fact. Gear helps. It does not make them equal.
So you mean to tell me, that if you faced someone with YOUR skill level, and you had a GS of 9k, that you could beat someone with a GS of 20k?
A five year old will not become a god by having 20K gear score. If the player doesn't have the timing, reaction time and power combinations they will still never be able to compete with the people who normally have high gear.
That is fact. Gear helps. It does not make them equal.
The baseline is equal players. The baseline is not unequal players with different gear scores because that's not a baseline. Stuff you would know if you had ever played a real game.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
So you mean to tell me, that if you faced someone with YOUR skill level, and you had a GS of 9k, that you could beat someone with a GS of 20K
No I wouldn't. That is why they will naturally end up higher in the Elo rating.
You are going the right direction but took wrong turn at the fork in the road.
Equally skilled players with different gear score will be decided by their gear.
Unequally skilled players will be offset by their gear score.
Players with more skill will be competitive with higher geared players with less skill.
Players with less skill will be competitive with players that have less gear.
Gear Score is not reliable because people with equal gear are not necessarily equally skilled.
And the arguments that founded this thread rely on that assumption.
The baseline is equal players. The baseline is not unequal players with different gear scores because that's not a baseline. Stuff you would know if you had ever played a real game.
Problem is that in your gs system players would be constantly fighting those either above or below their skill level. Elo once they get the system sorted out and everyone has had enough matches will be a much better system.
No I wouldn't. That is why they will naturally end up higher in the Elo rating.
You are going the right direction but took wrong turn at the fork in the road.
Equally skilled players with different gear score will be decided by their gear. Unequally skilled players will be offset by their gear score.
That is to say that if some of the players in my guild with 15K gear score faced people with 10K gear score they might be able to compete. Some are older, some are disabled and some just lack skill in general but enjoy the game none-the-less.
Gear Score is not reliable because people with equal gear are not necessarily equally skilled.
And the arguments that founded this thread rely on that assumption.
Nobody said GS alone, so stop putting words in our mouths. If gear means "nothing" and doesn't equal "skill" then you should ahve no problem with people being amtched up based on both SKILL and GS.
Someone that is 9k gs, and wins 10 matches, shouldnt be facing a 20k Gs that wins 10 matches. It is illogical, makes no sense what so ever.
And do not patronize me. I did not take "a wrong turn at the fork in the road". You have no idea on my gaming history, or what skills i have in this genre or any other.
Problem is that in your gs system players would be constantly fighting those either above or below their skill level. Elo once they get the system sorted out and everyone has had enough matches will be a much better system.
GS is taken into ACCOUNT, it is not the entire system. You cannot have 2 "equally skilled players" and then have one armed with a pistol, and one having a nuclear bomb.
Nobody said GS alone, so stop putting words in our mouths. If gear means "nothing" and doesn't equal "skill" then you should ahve no problem with people being amtched up based on both SKILL and GS.
Someone that is 9k gs, and wins 10 matches, shouldnt be facing a 20k Gs that wins 10 matches. It is illogical, makes no sense what so ever.
And do not patronize me. I did not take "a wrong turn at the fork in the road". You have no idea on my gaming history, or what skills i have in this genre or any other.
GS is taken into ACCOUNT, it is not the entire system. You cannot have 2 "equally skilled players" and then have one armed with a pistol, and one having a nuclear bomb.
10 matches is too small of a sample size for one. Your logic is flawed all thru this.
GS is taken into ACCOUNT, it is not the entire system. You cannot have 2 "equally skilled players" and then have one armed with a pistol, and one having a nuclear bomb.
We do not know if it is or is not taken into account in this Elo System.
However over time (the longer the better) the better all players will be rated.
Bad matches will happen. They are to be expected.
You can imagine the Elo System to measure likelihood to win against opponents. That will do exactly what you want without artificial limitations such as a Gear Score but it will take time. Time which you have not given it.
If GS 9k has 100 wins, and Gs 20k has 100 wins. Then what? Stop making up excuses.
This whole assumption is inaccurate because it does not take into account the time it takes to separate the player base. There are a lot of high gear score players who have not separated themselves from the low gear score yet. That adds a huge level of unpredictability which will only be resolved with time.
It could take weeks. It could take months. It will not take days.
If GS 9k has 100 wins, and Gs 20k has 100 wins. Then what? Stop making up excuses.
At a larger sample size the chances of this go way down. Once you get to that larger sample size you will likely have fought some equally skilled slightly higher geared players and had your rating go down. It's technically possible but statistically unlikely to ever happen.
We do not know if it is or is not taken into account in this Elo System.
However over time (the longer the better) the better all players will be rated.
Bad matches will happen. They are to be expected.
You can imagine the Elo System to measure likelihood to win against opponents. That will do exactly what you want without artificial limitations such as a Gear Score but it will take time. Time which you have not given it.
This whole assumption is inaccurate because it does not take into account the time it takes to separate the player base. There are a lot of high gear score players who have not separated themselves from the low gear score yet. That adds a huge level of unpredictability which will only be resolved with time.
It could take weeks. It could take months. It will not take days.
And it is not an inaccurate assumption. If gear =/= skill, then a 9k GS should have no troubles getting the same amount of wins as a 20k GS.
If they fight, are you really going to tell me that the 9k GS has a chance?
And it is not an inaccurate assumption. If gear =/= skill, then a 9k GS should have no troubles getting the same amount of wins as a 20k GS.
If they fight, are you really going to tell me that the 9k GS has a chance?
If not, then why should GS not be included.
Besides my previous comments about statistics, you seem to think someone would play many matches and have a good amount of time in the game, yet never have their gs increase after they hit 60, as 9k is something a competent player has 30 secs after they hit level 60. So not going up to 16k by the time they have say 100 wins in your larger sample size is never going to happen, if they are competent.
Besides my previous comments about statistics, you seem to think someone would play many matches and have a good amount of time in the game, yet never have their gs increase after they hit 60, as 9k is something a competent player has 30 secs after they hit level 60. So not going up to 16k by the time they have say 100 wins in your larger sample size is never going to happen, if they are competent.
16k by 100 wins? idk how u can pull that off but i am only 13k after 3 months i think. 100 wins is something u will have within 1 month
16k by 100 wins? idk how u can pull that off but i am only 13k after 3 months i think. 100 wins is something u will have within 1 month
When mod 2 hit, I leveled a new gwf. I had my gg gear, all rank 7's except for utility, a normal soulforge and a normal vorpal within 2 weeks and I think it was actually a little quicker than this. I didn't use anything from other toons, or any real money as a test to see how fast I could get to at least that point. Look up Trace's guide on wealth creation for better info on how to accomplish similar things.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited March 2014
An Elo System is not a win loss ratio.
It is a scoring system which rates players based on each match and the rewards and penalties for wins and losses vary based on each match.
If you have a high Elo Rating and lose to players with a low Elo Rating you will lose a lot of points and they will gain a lot. Alternatively if you win against a much lower rated team you will not gain many points not will they lose a lot.
As such a person with a 10K difference in score can have the exact same win to loss ratio and have a completely different Elo Rating.
I really recommend you guys look into how the Elo System works before jumping to conclusions.
All you need to do is change how GS is calculated so that it reflects the potencial of the character (including lvl, hp, mount and wapon enchantments) and then use it. All you need to do is offer bigger or better rewards for higher GS mathces. And it s a game, so the point of it all is to have fun; being pushed around by OP guys and, for most people, being unable to even play certain aspects of the game because of it isn t.
It is a scoring system which rates players based on each match and the rewards and penalties for wins and losses vary based on each match.
If you have a high Elo Rating and lose to players with a low Elo Rating you will lose a lot of points and they will gain a lot. Alternatively if you win against a much lower rated team you will not gain many points not will they lose a lot.
As such a person with a 10K difference in score can have the exact same win to loss ratio and have a completely different Elo Rating.
I really recommend you guys look into how the Elo System works before jumping to conclusions.
i would study the exact specifics concerning elo, but i have enough experience actually doing a lot of pvp everyday.
bad matches do happen but they are very frequent despite all the matches i have done. in each and every one of those, it's always completely 1-sided due to 1 team just not being capable of fighting off the other team and it's mostly because of gear score, enchants, occasionally mounts i guess, and teams made specifically to win (2 perma + other groups). we can keep dancing around the idea that skill matters, but gear/class/build are the biggest factors in a fight's outcome rather than skill. of course, skills like shocking execution will kill anyone.
many of my losses are actually because of a gs difference between teams.
i mostly predict that elo will just separate us into small brackets mostly based on gs anyways with variances due to classes/builds being better/worse at pvp
ps: i remember a post asking about 9k vs 15k or 6k vs 13k from slintash i think? I will repeat the question on how possible that would be since i highly doubt it without number advantage or a daily on weakened opponents
When mod 2 hit, I leveled a new gwf. I had my gg gear, all rank 7's except for utility, a normal soulforge and a normal vorpal within 2 weeks and I think it was actually a little quicker than this. I didn't use anything from other toons, or any real money as a test to see how fast I could get to at least that point. Look up Trace's guide on wealth creation for better info on how to accomplish similar things.
u must have abused the market or got lucky with drops
Comments
Could've sworn I'd already replied to this..perhaps I'm more drunk than I thought :P
Anyways.. yes. Sad but true.
It doesn't matter, you could gear your character for the GS bracket you wanted to play in, plus, the GS could fluctuate by class instead of being static.
You have some people that will float to the top, some to the bottom, but most will be in the middle, regardless of GS... so you will still end up with huge GS discrepancies amongst similar ELO ratings.
Right. Another reason to disregard gs/gear.
The thing is gear score is not directly equivalent to skill.
Two people with the exact same character would play slightly better or worse than each other. Some people will play above average and some people will play below. The rare few at the top will be the best players with the best gear. The people at the bottom will be the worst players with the worst gear.
Gear is not a magical number which directly equates to skill.
Just because a person has good gear does not mean they are a good player or vice versa.
No one says gear is some magical number that equates to skill, but it's a HUGE advantage that can cover differences in skill or give equally skilled players a gigantic, non-magical (very real) advantage.
So, all things being equal, with my average ELO rating, I'm going to run into players that by far outclass my GS but still have a similar ELO rating, and I'm not going to stand much of a chance in those instances.
Correct. Disregard gear, show your skills.
the problem is that i get grouped with people of 6-10k gs while i have 13k and have done far more than 30 matches. as a rogue, i will stomp anyone with 10k or less gs even if they fight me 3 vs 1. they might kill me, but i am highly likely to kill 2-3 of them and survive to keep on killing until they finally kill me and i have gone on a murdering spree for like 7-10 kills b4 suffering my 1st death (no regen and i never ran to a pot). it simply isn't a fair fight as they are simply too weak to even kill me with numbers.
the only class/build that actually can excel at low gs is a perma-rogue, but thats overpowered anyways.
pretty much this except far worse when u consider that 15k+ likely have perfects, emblem of seldarine (pre-healing depression), etc. so not a fair fight even for a 13k.
I admit after being slaughtered so many times it does feel nice to put on that two tier gear, get your stats where you want them, and then wipe the floor with some newbies because you realize you're not like them anymore. You don't want to remember when you were like them. It's different when the tables have turned, it's like a temptation.
2 equal players, one has better gear = unfair outcome. how often does this have to be spelled out for the never played a competitive game crowd?
Very bad assumption.
I frequently win fights against higher gear score players and being in a very casual friendly guild I also see many players who do not play as well as their gear score. Players who absolutely will not ever have a decent match against players with much less gear score.
Gear is an advantage. It is not a rule.
Players can play above or below their gear score which is why it is not used as this all encompassing rule.
A five year old will not become a god by having 20K gear score. If the player doesn't have the timing, reaction time and power combinations they will still never be able to compete with the people who normally have high gear.
That is fact. Gear helps. It does not make them equal.
So you mean to tell me, that if you faced someone with YOUR skill level, and you had a GS of 9k, that you could beat someone with a GS of 20k?
I'd love to see that.
Again re-read what he said. Of EQUAL skill.
No I wouldn't. That is why they will naturally end up higher in the Elo rating.
You are going the right direction but took wrong turn at the fork in the road.
Equally skilled players with different gear score will be decided by their gear.
Unequally skilled players will be offset by their gear score.
Players with more skill will be competitive with higher geared players with less skill.
Players with less skill will be competitive with players that have less gear.
Gear Score is not reliable because people with equal gear are not necessarily equally skilled.
And the arguments that founded this thread rely on that assumption.
Problem is that in your gs system players would be constantly fighting those either above or below their skill level. Elo once they get the system sorted out and everyone has had enough matches will be a much better system.
Nobody said GS alone, so stop putting words in our mouths. If gear means "nothing" and doesn't equal "skill" then you should ahve no problem with people being amtched up based on both SKILL and GS.
Someone that is 9k gs, and wins 10 matches, shouldnt be facing a 20k Gs that wins 10 matches. It is illogical, makes no sense what so ever.
And do not patronize me. I did not take "a wrong turn at the fork in the road". You have no idea on my gaming history, or what skills i have in this genre or any other.
GS is taken into ACCOUNT, it is not the entire system. You cannot have 2 "equally skilled players" and then have one armed with a pistol, and one having a nuclear bomb.
10 matches is too small of a sample size for one. Your logic is flawed all thru this.
You missed the entire bloody point.
If GS 9k has 100 wins, and Gs 20k has 100 wins. Then what? Stop making up excuses.
We do not know if it is or is not taken into account in this Elo System.
However over time (the longer the better) the better all players will be rated.
Bad matches will happen. They are to be expected.
You can imagine the Elo System to measure likelihood to win against opponents. That will do exactly what you want without artificial limitations such as a Gear Score but it will take time. Time which you have not given it.
This whole assumption is inaccurate because it does not take into account the time it takes to separate the player base. There are a lot of high gear score players who have not separated themselves from the low gear score yet. That adds a huge level of unpredictability which will only be resolved with time.
It could take weeks. It could take months. It will not take days.
At a larger sample size the chances of this go way down. Once you get to that larger sample size you will likely have fought some equally skilled slightly higher geared players and had your rating go down. It's technically possible but statistically unlikely to ever happen.
And it is not an inaccurate assumption. If gear =/= skill, then a 9k GS should have no troubles getting the same amount of wins as a 20k GS.
If they fight, are you really going to tell me that the 9k GS has a chance?
If not, then why should GS not be included.
^raises a point
even with elo, low gs players should still get more or less similar wins/losses as higher gs players and then elo will force them to fight
Besides my previous comments about statistics, you seem to think someone would play many matches and have a good amount of time in the game, yet never have their gs increase after they hit 60, as 9k is something a competent player has 30 secs after they hit level 60. So not going up to 16k by the time they have say 100 wins in your larger sample size is never going to happen, if they are competent.
16k by 100 wins? idk how u can pull that off but i am only 13k after 3 months i think. 100 wins is something u will have within 1 month
When mod 2 hit, I leveled a new gwf. I had my gg gear, all rank 7's except for utility, a normal soulforge and a normal vorpal within 2 weeks and I think it was actually a little quicker than this. I didn't use anything from other toons, or any real money as a test to see how fast I could get to at least that point. Look up Trace's guide on wealth creation for better info on how to accomplish similar things.
It is a scoring system which rates players based on each match and the rewards and penalties for wins and losses vary based on each match.
If you have a high Elo Rating and lose to players with a low Elo Rating you will lose a lot of points and they will gain a lot. Alternatively if you win against a much lower rated team you will not gain many points not will they lose a lot.
As such a person with a 10K difference in score can have the exact same win to loss ratio and have a completely different Elo Rating.
I really recommend you guys look into how the Elo System works before jumping to conclusions.
i would study the exact specifics concerning elo, but i have enough experience actually doing a lot of pvp everyday.
bad matches do happen but they are very frequent despite all the matches i have done. in each and every one of those, it's always completely 1-sided due to 1 team just not being capable of fighting off the other team and it's mostly because of gear score, enchants, occasionally mounts i guess, and teams made specifically to win (2 perma + other groups). we can keep dancing around the idea that skill matters, but gear/class/build are the biggest factors in a fight's outcome rather than skill. of course, skills like shocking execution will kill anyone.
many of my losses are actually because of a gs difference between teams.
i mostly predict that elo will just separate us into small brackets mostly based on gs anyways with variances due to classes/builds being better/worse at pvp
ps: i remember a post asking about 9k vs 15k or 6k vs 13k from slintash i think? I will repeat the question on how possible that would be since i highly doubt it without number advantage or a daily on weakened opponents
u must have abused the market or got lucky with drops