Pretty much Ranncore's first sentence. An At-Will is at will. No cooldowns.
The bigger question is whether it can even be balanced separately from the GF spell and if not then there's an even bigger problem.
On a GF it is a utility power. It doesn't do any damage really and is mainly for movement and marking. It should be the same concept on a GWF but as Ranncore said due to the damage it is often spammed as an actual attack.
Honestly if it can be scaled separately it should just have its damage reduced so it remains a utility power rather than an all in one option.
There is a reason why nobody complained about this before. The movement and even the marking is not the problem. It's the damage combined with utility specifically on the GWF which prompted these complaints.
And do note I am a player. I have zero control of what makes it to the test server.
I can't say this with 100% certainty, but a while back we tested marking with my guild, and if I recall marking a target would debuff the target with 8% less defense. Now, in the sentinel tree the gwf can feat another 15% on marked targets. These (de)buffs are applied before the damage from the marking skill hits. So you basicly get 23% more damage on threatning rush. Now if your target doesn't attack you ánd stays in range sure strike would obviously be better to spam (SS is a lot faster), obviously that doesn't happen a lot so you just spam TR so you always have that 23%. Combine that with the much higher GWF base damage, and Student of the Sword feat (which only debuffs 5% per stack btw, not 15% per stack), and you get 3-4k crits from what like you said should be a utility power.
* I am aware the extra 15% is only used by sentinels because that's the only way you can get both that and SotS.
* I am aware that it's only exactly 23% when your armor pen matches the targets defense, since the 8% from mark is a debuff on the target, and the 15% on marked targets is a buff.
I can't say this with 100% certainty, but a while back we tested marking with my guild, and if I recall marking a target would debuff the target with 8% less defense. Now, in the sentinel tree the gwf can feat another 15% on marked targets. These (de)buffs are applied before the damage from the marking skill hits. So you basicly get 23% more damage on threatning rush. Now if your target doesn't attack you ánd stays in range sure strike would obviously be better to spam (SS is a lot faster), obviously that doesn't happen a lot so you just spam TR so you always have that 23%. Combine that with the much higher GWF base damage, and Student of the Sword feat (which only debuffs 5% per stack btw, not 15% per stack), and you get 3-4k crits from what like you said should be a utility power.
* I am aware the extra 15% is only used by sentinels because that's the only way you can get both that and SotS.
* I am aware that it's only exactly 23% when your armor pen matches the targets defense, since the 8% from mark is a debuff on the target, and the 15% on marked targets is a buff.
Well devs said already that TR spam is not something intended and they did try to fix this already, unfortunately they havent succeed yet, but problem is already known and you can expect a solution soon. Problem is not the dmg is the animation canceling.
Trapublican do you even know how to read? I am really getting the impression I am talking to mentally challenged people, all I have said is instead of nerfing ANY class repeatedly why not buff the others accordingly, I do not understand why this is so hard for you and everyone else to understand, someone at least acknowledge that this would solve the problem without completely destroying any class .
hypervoreian unstoppable isn't more spammable than it was before NOTHING has changed there aside in your head, and in case you haven't noticed you get WAY less HP when you proc it now than pre patch .
And wow really restoring strike in pvp and we are supposed to take anything you say seriously? regen and to a lesser degree lifesteal along side a high HP build WERE the main reasons sentinel GWF were so OP, anyways I am wasting my time here, there will always be part of the community that doesn't know jack about PVP and come on the forums to talk nonsense, I just have to come to terms with that .
Seems that you caught feelings since you immediately resorted to pitiful ad hominems. If I'd have made this post it'd have been deleted instantly.
I also find it hilarious that someone who plays a GWF, and has the audacity to claim that thay're balanced, claims others know nothing about pvp. You also have a very poor understanding of how balance is acheived in MMOs (I suspect you're one of the WoW generation which would explain a lot), you always reign in the outliers you don't push the norm to meet them since that would create even more balance issues.
Man are you doing it on purpose? I never said GWF's are balanced, I said instead of nerfing them (or any other class) buff the other classes accordingly, is this so hard to understand? this also goes for a lot of other things in this game like weapon and armor enchants, instead of nerfing one down to the ground why not make them all viable, same principle, I am just sick of seeing nerf threads which lead to nerfs and only seem to create greater imbalances ...
When I said nerf GWF again and he will become useless I was referring to OP's threatening rush nerf suggestions, it is the only gap closer GWF's have, aside from sprint which works terribly against anyone who knows how to dodge correctly, we need that gap closer, they could lower damage on it, even by a lot, but if they remove it or put it on a cool down we will get mowed down by any of the ranged classes with no way of getting to them, thus making us useless, we would only be able to fight other tanks .
Man are you doing it on purpose? I never said GWF's are balanced, I said instead of nerfing them (or any other class) buff the other classes accordingly, is this so hard to understand? this also goes for a lot of other things in this game like weapon and armor enchants, instead of nerfing one down to the ground why not make them all viable, same principle, I am just sick of seeing nerf threads which lead to nerfs and only seem to create greater imbalances ...
When I said nerf GWF again and he will become useless I was referring to OP's threatening rush nerf suggestions, it is the only gap closer GWF's have, aside from sprint which works terribly against anyone who knows how to dodge correctly, we need that gap closer, they could lower damage on it, even by a lot, but if they remove it or put it on a cool down we will get mowed down by any of the ranged classes with no way of getting to them, thus making us useless, we would only be able to fight other tanks .
what if it did no damage or so little that it won't matter if it is spammed? that way it can be a pure utility at-will instead
ninefingers said :
"hypervoreian unstoppable isn't more spammable than it was before NOTHING has changed there aside in your head, "
Not mine tell that toy your classmates in that threadAre they lieing?
"And wow really restoring strike in pvp and we are supposed to take anything you say seriously? regen and to a lesser degree lifesteal along side a high HP build WERE the main reasons sentinel GWF were so OP,"
These were said by GWFs.Not me.read better :)What GWfs said?
vladious1977 "Regen - Not needed nice to have though
Life steal - Nice but once again not needed.
What you do need
Unstopable - I almost feel like I am spamming this now. It heals and it is based on damage before mitgation comes into factor. So we take less damage now and go into unstopable which heals you more often then we did pre-patch.
Restoring Strike- Click some points into this bad boy for a nice hot. "
lol
more confessions..."We are going into unstopable what feels like twice as fast meaning we are getting healed from our unstopable twice as fast. Getting temporary HP twice as fast. (Honestly think it is only 20 percent faster but still) Use what god gave you. Your brain and most occasions you want to use IBS Roar Restoring strike. Use restoring strike on CD. Use Unstopable ASAP."
"We could hold our own but not nearly effective as we where pug versus pug. This is not changed. Nothing has really changed that much." !!! :P :P
My head is fine?What about yours? :)These things were not written by me!!! But by GWFs in this thread!!!!!
Tell that toy your classmates friend! i did not tell them!!! They said it!!
Unstoppable is op and needs a ....."tweak" a "balance" needs to be adressed ,needs some calibration.i do not call for a nerf of a class.But Unstop nees some "balancing"
Tell that toy your classmates friend! i did not tell them!!! They said it!!
Annnnnnnnd you're completely ignoring, by choice of course for purposes of your endless crusade of inadequacy, all the counter arguements provided in that thread you referenced.
That's cool though, not surprised at all... :cool:
i ignored nothing.I did not made a freaking contract to include in my quotes what you like to see....
"by choice of course for purposes of your endless crusade of inadequacy,"
I speak through the words of the GWfs that were talking there.You are speaking with generalizations accusations and a veryyyyyyy bad taste of houmor...
"Back to your regularly scheduled QQing, enjoy!"
I saw you used gifs.
You are a freaking comedian r u??? Or you r the circus jester of GWfs?
A GWF apoloigist with an attitude .These "" QQ " tell them to your WoW friends got it mate?????????It is a wow slung you used.And you are probably a poor Wow player that thinks he is fun and a player.
Well i got news for you "jester".Your beloved toons are going to get some "tweaks" and "rebalances" in the module 3.It is coming .Brace your self .
Well i got news for you "jester".Your beloved toons are going to get some "tweaks" and "rebalances" in the module 3.It is coming .Brace your self .
If/When that happens I will adjust my play style and continue enjoying the GWF class I have since Open Beta. Simple as that!
Though I would humble suggest that you may want to work on your command of the English language before you continue to fire off the ad hominem. Now if English isn't your first language, I'd still suggest improving your skill set, maybe follow this advice:
It will never happen, but here's what you do if you're smart and want to fix things in both PvP and PvE:
Give GFs a new second Paragon that isn't Swordmaster. Give GWFs a new second paragon that isn't Iron Vanguard. There are so ridiculously many Fighter paragons that it shouldn't be a challenge to find some. Post up a (notice, bulletin, dev blog, whatever) saying that all Fighter-class characters (that means GFs and GWFs for anyone who didn't get it) will have their stats, feats and powers reset during the deployment of these new paragon paths. Yes, exactly like a retraining token. Also make it very clear in large, bold, underlined text that GFs will no longer have Swordmaster available to choose and that GWFs will no longer be able to choose Iron Vanguard. Encourage people to try them out extensively on Preview.
This crossing of paragon paths should never have happened in the first place - it's just lazy and sloppy to begin with, not to mention all the balance issues it causes when trying to nerf or buff one class and the other being affected as well. I appreciate Cryptic's attempt to explain it by saying "it shows their shared Fighter heritage", but this isn't PnP D&D where it's fine and works properly.
IV GWFs made IV GFs obsolete in PvE. They've been a nightmare to balance in PvP, and not even the addition of Tenacity has done much to solve it. On the other hand, Swordmaster GFs are pretty much useless all the time in both PvE and PvP, except in niche cases and only then when played by the exceptionally talented.
Again, Cryptic will almost certainly never do this and I'm fully aware of it.
hypervoreian you are quoting the people that are clearly clueless and wrong, nothing has change since patch with unstoppable, aside that the HP and temporary HP it gives you are divided by 2 (because of healing depression), it is in no way faster and more spammable .
Same goes for restoring strike which was already bad in pvp before patch, now it to is affected by healing depression so gives you half the HP when in combat, so it is without a doubt useless in pvp .
As for the comment about regen and lifesteal are you really serious? this is what made sentinel GWF so ridiculously tanky, now that healing depression is here, GWF's are far from being as tanky as before .
This is the problem, a lot of people here have no clue what they are talking about, but this is no surprise to me, most the pugs I see in pvp are completely clueless .
I have not complained about the changes that have been made to GWF (aside from the fact GWF's can no longer counter a good TR), some adjustments did and probably still do need to be made, and as Kolat said, if anything does change we will just adapt/adjust, and more than likely continue to make pugs cry on these forums .
I have not complained about the changes that have been made to GWF (aside from the fact GWF's can no longer counter a good TR),
Maybe it only needs a bit of time, GWFs do have alot of movement speed and they also have slows, i do think is more of a latency battle but i'm not rly seeing gwf vs tr to be a bad matchup (minus SE ofc).
Before in premades you would send a GWF to counter the TR, those fights could last well over 10 minutes, and could go either way .
This is no longer possible a good TR will drain your HP in a couple of minutes at most, and as soon as you go under the 50% hp mark they land Shocking execution, I have actually seen a few crit for around 40K which is ridiculous considering 90% of the time TR is immune to damage, those fight are now completely lopsided, now to counter TR you need another equally skilled TR or a good melee spec'ed HR and to a lesser degree a GF, who will by no means kill the TR but will survive and contest/keep the node, or any 2 classes against him and even then a good TR can survive quite a while .
I can tell you one thing we will be seeing more TR's in premades, my guess is 2, one for each side node .
Just been in another match against a BiS TR (perfect SF and perfect vorpal). Quite a bit of 1v1 to avoid him stalling 3 of my team mates at our base. Could evade A LOT, and is a good example of what a good TR is capable of now.
Alone, he could stall 3 of my pug mates. Against me, i would say i got my good chances playing it smart. Catching him directly, almost impossible. Pressuring him, fake retreat and frontline to get him off-guard, timing my prones to match the few milliseconds between ITC and dodge roll immunity. Needless to say, if he got SE up, it was a 20k+ crit, pretty much a free kill after you manage to soften up your target enough. Could also tank quite a bit of damage. Even fight/ little difference with him slightly ahead of me perhaps, overall. With me tanking lots of damage and soon enough catching him and locking him in a chain-prone combo. He still got the option to run away in stealth, fully recover and come back (which he did).
Good TRs are now able to stall multiple opponents even better than a sentinel GWF. And shocking execution is basically a free kill to use against tanks or when it's needed.
A GWF playing smart can still match a good TR. HRs too, probably.
Can't see any other class doing the same right now.
Question: is SE working as intended or it's supposed to be affected by tenacity?
i agree to an extent that we can still take down a TR, if we get our daily up first, the thing is a well built TR will always get his up first because of their high recovery builds, so in 1vs1 situations, like on side nodes in a premade, the TR will almost always win .
i agree to an extent that we can still take down a TR, if we get our daily up first, the thing is a well built TR will always get his up first because of their high recovery builds, so in 1vs1 situations, like on side nodes in a premade, the TR will almost always win .
More or less agree - if it wasn't for Shocking Execution going through Tenacity I think it might be relatively balanced.
More or less agree - if it wasn't for Shocking Execution going through Tenacity I think it might be relatively balanced.
Is there any word if SE is WAI or not?
It has always been like that so I guess it is. Also, Whirlwind of Blades same as SE ignores all resistances including Tenacity. I actually prefer to hit the entire enemy team for 15k+ critical then use SE.
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
It has always been like that so I guess it is. Also, Whirlwind of Blades same as SE ignores all resistances including Tenacity. I actually prefer to hit the entire enemy team for 15k+ critical then use SE.
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited March 2014
All I did was express a disagreement with the proposed solution in the Original Post.
What I think is a good or bad solution in the long run means little. Cryptic makes the decisions, not me.
They could very well agree with giving some At-Wills cooldowns.
So I resort back to what I said very early on, I don't know what the best solution is but I do not agree with giving At-Wills cooldowns or any solution which negatively effects Guardian Fighters.
I'm playing a GWF since almost a year and besides some few other classes a GWF is the most nerfed class because many people are not able to handle a tanky melee class. Instead of QQ and demanding nerfs, install your brain.exe and use it...
I see Players who are smashing all their encounters/dailies into an unstoppable GWF and complaining afterwards how OP a GWF is, I mean srsly... learn how long unstoppable is ongoing, count down for yourself and then use your burst Encounters etc.
I admit that threatening rush + sprint cancelling was kinda stupid and like a little exploit to spam TR like a Gatling Gun on a target but it is fixed. TBH Threatening Rush is not the problem, back in the "Swordmaster" Times I was able to beat and fight well known TRs and CWs (it was just a little bit harder, no gap close but flourish and using my brain handled it oh and I didn't use Tenebrous...), the problem sits infront of the monitor, use just your brain and learn your class before...
GWFs had only 2 great times since closed/open Beta: 35K+ HP + 7 x Tenebrous, after the Tene nerf -> Perfect Vorpal, massive HP and high regeneration (INB4: an Emblem is an artifact and has nothing directly to do with the class GWF, you all can use an Emblem).
Hardcore Nerfs and problems since open beta for GWFs:
Nerf: Bravery from 15% deflection chance down to 8%
Nerf: Unstoppable Recovery from 10 or 15% down to 5% (getting %HP back on activating unstoppable)
Nerf: Slam (A massive tone down on Tick durations and Tick Damage, our only real good AoE Damage Daily)
Bug: Tab Skill was broken for more than 2 Month and often NO unstoppable possible in PvP (fixed)
Nerf: Frontline Surge, 25% lesser Damage (There were a lot more of smaller Nerfs but those on top hurt at most)
Okay Tenebrous got nerfed, back in the days the only good Damage Source for a GWF Sentinel. Now Tenacity nerfs the Vorpal Crit Damage, was the only high(est) Damage Source (okay sometimes a bit too high lol) for a GWF Sentinel + Healing Depression -> High Regen was the only strong survive Ability for a Sentinel GWF. Now a GWF is just a little bit more Tanky (Tenacity Bonus DR) without a good survive ability anymore. Even when the IV Path would have no Threatening Rush, many People would maybe demand to remove Frontline Surge or would say that Sprint is OP (you can be proned, killed, hurt while sprinting, sprint is nothing special) ... m)
just my 2 cents (and I was never really complaining about the GWF Nerfs, I was never demanding Nerfs for other classes on the Forums because I can use my Brain while playing PvP )
Swordfish
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bobiwanMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
When good ranged and good melee meet, it becomes a long and hectic fight where the good ranged first deals repeated accumulated damage to good melee from distance, the good melee closes in and lands a few big hits, the good ranged gains distance again and starts landing more damage, and on and on and on where both sides' HP starts dropping down at a comparable rate... and then one side wins.
Ofcourse, you don't see this in NW, because ranged never beats the GWF. Things go similarly for the first 5 seconds, and then bam. Unstoppable. Game over.
Yeah? Then try fighting without it and see just how much of an easy-mode crutch a gap-closing at-will is.
You know why 90%+ of the TR population uses the stealthed-ranged build? Because staying in combat range with melee at-wills is helluva difficult thing to accomplish in NW... and the only way most TRs really use melee attacks is when they just do the hit-and-run (as with LB) or land a stealthed DF against a stationary person.
Then 90% of NW TR's are holding it wrong. I am not a perma-stealther, nor a whisperknife..... I tend to melt such builds, a ranged/permastealth TR is a sad shell when matched against a properly played tanky melee TR in PVP.
I never did understand the rage regarding unstoppable on GWF's, that's always been my cue to kill them outright, a sign of ultimate vulnerability, not an 'ohgod it can't die now' moment. Am I missing something? I mean, it reduces the damage one does a little and heals them, but one could always still burn them down before they could get another one off if timed correctly.... so I'm not seeing the fuss over it?
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degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2014
I love playing my GWF. I stomp all other classes with little or no effort!
Then I get on my CW... That's a little more challenging.
I see Players who are smashing all their encounters/dailies into an unstoppable GWF and complaining afterwards how OP a GWF is, I mean srsly... learn how long unstoppable is ongoing, count down for yourself and then use your burst Encounters etc.
Yep, it really is that easy. Nevermind that while we're waiting for Unstoppable to cool-down you're continually closing the gap with TR, wearing down our stamina/dodges, and then finally hitting us with FLS, Take Down, and IBS. Now that we're at 1/3 of our health or so, we can start working on wearing down the remaining 38k HP you have.
pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2014
GWF was to be relatively OK after Tene nerf.
But no, they had to give them Threatening Rush (which must be the dumbest thing I've ever seen in an MMO) and an AoE big splash multiple target prone (lulz again). On top of that, debuff too for the TR at-will, and always critting bleed, cause smart game mechanics are smart.
There's nothing that comes to my mind but "gg".
Oh yeah, if you ever have an issue with a GWF, it's a L2P one.
Also, if you still have an issue with a GWF after L2Play, then you should know your class is not a 1vs1 one and you shouldn't win against GWF, so reroll if you want to dominate 1vs1.
I love playing my GWF. I stomp all other classes with little or no effort!
Then I get on my CW... That's a little more challenging.
Yep, it really is that easy. Nevermind that while we're waiting for Unstoppable to cool-down you're continually closing the gap with TR, wearing down our stamina/dodges, and then finally hitting us with FLS, Take Down, and IBS. Now that we're at 1/3 of our health or so, we can start working on wearing down the remaining 38k HP you have.
You have said it all. One needs to play very very smart against them GWF, try to lurk in the shadow after they pop unstoppable and pray they don't sprint away out of reach.
can anyone explain to me why is the base AC of GWF higher than the GF? All armors and weapons removed... the GWF still lvl 4 no feats yet... pls someone check (GWF 16AC and GF 10AC) the +6 AC says it comes from feats but no feats yet and bot are human!
Giving some thought to this it occurs to me that GWF IV is really the closest thing NWO comes to a 3e prestige class. The glaring problem is the balance issue created by allowing such a powerful build option that has zero downside. For anyone familiar with 3e or NWN, an example would be making a barbarian that can take all of the weapon master crit feats without actually having to invest any levels in weapon master- creating a barbarian-weaponmaster hybrid with the strengths of both classes but the weakness of neither. To have things like GWF IV Sent you really should have multi-classing which essentially means you can take a feat-path from another class in addition to your own (which would open up some of the powers of tat class), but you could NOT take the paragon path of either class.
THAT is balanced multi-classing.
PanzerJäger HR Hybrid Jugger Conq GF
....
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astariadodfMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Threatening rush is definitely the ability that creates imbalance with GWF. Playing as GWF without TR requires skill to land encounters. Getting kited is the tradeoff for such high defensive setup. Reducing damage from TR would not fix the problem.
Good range should be able to kite melee. Good melee should be able to stay on range. TR removes this part of the game and makes it difficult to balance.
As you all know my main is a GWF and was always at the top of the lists in pvp PRIOR to the changes with Shadowbreakall. What we got was NOT love, it was poor development and stacking broken game design.
I refused to use the GF <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and still stood strong and was still in the tops. Really, the one poster on the first page said it, it took skill to be a gwf - and again now I say it has fallen to the level of trained monkeys can do that build, just like the perma stealth rogue.
Face the music. They refuse to fix basic issues such as targeting, and plans for the future just show they are going to compound new issues onto the old.
I have no respect for the developers of Neverwinter anymore, its obvious they just want the dollars to keep rolling in as long as possible.
I just would like to point out that I've never even used Threatening Rush before in PvP- probably because it never occurred to me that i needed to utilize a skill (other then running) to close gaps between whoever i am targeting.
I guess what i am trying to point out is: i think there are a lot of Great Sword Fighters who rely WAY too much on a skill/spell to get closer to a target, and not their own wits.
Then again, the current PvP map in this game is not exactly designed all that well; i mean it does have a couple of LoS spots on the map, but due to the way the combat is built in this game, and the low amount of environmental obstacles to utilize, the PvP feels meaningless and caters to mindless cluster-F@#$'ing.
So i can understand the over-usage of skills to make killing a target quicker... it must get boring running the same PvP map over and over and over.
I think people already know all this and just try to make due with what is available. So i hope Cryptic is taking the "PvP Campaign" seriously, because i want some PvP that actually has meaning to it and makes collaborated success feel more rewarding.
Comments
I can't say this with 100% certainty, but a while back we tested marking with my guild, and if I recall marking a target would debuff the target with 8% less defense. Now, in the sentinel tree the gwf can feat another 15% on marked targets. These (de)buffs are applied before the damage from the marking skill hits. So you basicly get 23% more damage on threatning rush. Now if your target doesn't attack you ánd stays in range sure strike would obviously be better to spam (SS is a lot faster), obviously that doesn't happen a lot so you just spam TR so you always have that 23%. Combine that with the much higher GWF base damage, and Student of the Sword feat (which only debuffs 5% per stack btw, not 15% per stack), and you get 3-4k crits from what like you said should be a utility power.
* I am aware the extra 15% is only used by sentinels because that's the only way you can get both that and SotS.
* I am aware that it's only exactly 23% when your armor pen matches the targets defense, since the 8% from mark is a debuff on the target, and the 15% on marked targets is a buff.
Well devs said already that TR spam is not something intended and they did try to fix this already, unfortunately they havent succeed yet, but problem is already known and you can expect a solution soon. Problem is not the dmg is the animation canceling.
Seems that you caught feelings since you immediately resorted to pitiful ad hominems. If I'd have made this post it'd have been deleted instantly.
I also find it hilarious that someone who plays a GWF, and has the audacity to claim that thay're balanced, claims others know nothing about pvp. You also have a very poor understanding of how balance is acheived in MMOs (I suspect you're one of the WoW generation which would explain a lot), you always reign in the outliers you don't push the norm to meet them since that would create even more balance issues.
When I said nerf GWF again and he will become useless I was referring to OP's threatening rush nerf suggestions, it is the only gap closer GWF's have, aside from sprint which works terribly against anyone who knows how to dodge correctly, we need that gap closer, they could lower damage on it, even by a lot, but if they remove it or put it on a cool down we will get mowed down by any of the ranged classes with no way of getting to them, thus making us useless, we would only be able to fight other tanks .
what if it did no damage or so little that it won't matter if it is spammed? that way it can be a pure utility at-will instead
"hypervoreian unstoppable isn't more spammable than it was before NOTHING has changed there aside in your head, "
Not mine tell that toy your classmates in that threadAre they lieing?
"And wow really restoring strike in pvp and we are supposed to take anything you say seriously? regen and to a lesser degree lifesteal along side a high HP build WERE the main reasons sentinel GWF were so OP,"
These were said by GWFs.Not me.read better :)What GWfs said?
vladious1977 "Regen - Not needed nice to have though
Life steal - Nice but once again not needed.
What you do need
Unstopable - I almost feel like I am spamming this now. It heals and it is based on damage before mitgation comes into factor. So we take less damage now and go into unstopable which heals you more often then we did pre-patch.
Restoring Strike- Click some points into this bad boy for a nice hot. "
lol
more confessions..."We are going into unstopable what feels like twice as fast meaning we are getting healed from our unstopable twice as fast. Getting temporary HP twice as fast. (Honestly think it is only 20 percent faster but still) Use what god gave you. Your brain and most occasions you want to use IBS Roar Restoring strike. Use restoring strike on CD. Use Unstopable ASAP."
"We could hold our own but not nearly effective as we where pug versus pug. This is not changed. Nothing has really changed that much." !!! :P :P
My head is fine?What about yours? :)These things were not written by me!!! But by GWFs in this thread!!!!!
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?629771-not-possible-to-be-godly-GWF-tank-in-pvp-anymore
Tell that toy your classmates friend! i did not tell them!!! They said it!!
Unstoppable is op and needs a ....."tweak" a "balance" needs to be adressed ,needs some calibration.i do not call for a nerf of a class.But Unstop nees some "balancing"
That's cool though, not surprised at all... :cool:
Back to your regularly scheduled QQing, enjoy!
"Annnnnnnnd you're completely ignoring,"
i ignored nothing.I did not made a freaking contract to include in my quotes what you like to see....
"by choice of course for purposes of your endless crusade of inadequacy,"
I speak through the words of the GWfs that were talking there.You are speaking with generalizations accusations and a veryyyyyyy bad taste of houmor...
"Back to your regularly scheduled QQing, enjoy!"
I saw you used gifs.
You are a freaking comedian r u???
A GWF apoloigist with an attitude .These "" QQ " tell them to your WoW friends got it mate?????????It is a wow slung you used.And you are probably a poor Wow player that thinks he is fun and a player.
Well i got news for you "jester".Your beloved toons are going to get some "tweaks" and "rebalances" in the module 3.It is coming .Brace your self .
If/When that happens I will adjust my play style and continue enjoying the GWF class I have since Open Beta. Simple as that!
Though I would humble suggest that you may want to work on your command of the English language before you continue to fire off the ad hominem. Now if English isn't your first language, I'd still suggest improving your skill set, maybe follow this advice:
Keep on rocking with your bad self!
Give GFs a new second Paragon that isn't Swordmaster. Give GWFs a new second paragon that isn't Iron Vanguard. There are so ridiculously many Fighter paragons that it shouldn't be a challenge to find some. Post up a (notice, bulletin, dev blog, whatever) saying that all Fighter-class characters (that means GFs and GWFs for anyone who didn't get it) will have their stats, feats and powers reset during the deployment of these new paragon paths. Yes, exactly like a retraining token. Also make it very clear in large, bold, underlined text that GFs will no longer have Swordmaster available to choose and that GWFs will no longer be able to choose Iron Vanguard. Encourage people to try them out extensively on Preview.
This crossing of paragon paths should never have happened in the first place - it's just lazy and sloppy to begin with, not to mention all the balance issues it causes when trying to nerf or buff one class and the other being affected as well. I appreciate Cryptic's attempt to explain it by saying "it shows their shared Fighter heritage", but this isn't PnP D&D where it's fine and works properly.
IV GWFs made IV GFs obsolete in PvE. They've been a nightmare to balance in PvP, and not even the addition of Tenacity has done much to solve it. On the other hand, Swordmaster GFs are pretty much useless all the time in both PvE and PvP, except in niche cases and only then when played by the exceptionally talented.
Again, Cryptic will almost certainly never do this and I'm fully aware of it.
Same goes for restoring strike which was already bad in pvp before patch, now it to is affected by healing depression so gives you half the HP when in combat, so it is without a doubt useless in pvp .
As for the comment about regen and lifesteal are you really serious? this is what made sentinel GWF so ridiculously tanky, now that healing depression is here, GWF's are far from being as tanky as before .
This is the problem, a lot of people here have no clue what they are talking about, but this is no surprise to me, most the pugs I see in pvp are completely clueless .
I have not complained about the changes that have been made to GWF (aside from the fact GWF's can no longer counter a good TR), some adjustments did and probably still do need to be made, and as Kolat said, if anything does change we will just adapt/adjust, and more than likely continue to make pugs cry on these forums .
Maybe it only needs a bit of time, GWFs do have alot of movement speed and they also have slows, i do think is more of a latency battle but i'm not rly seeing gwf vs tr to be a bad matchup (minus SE ofc).
This is no longer possible a good TR will drain your HP in a couple of minutes at most, and as soon as you go under the 50% hp mark they land Shocking execution, I have actually seen a few crit for around 40K which is ridiculous considering 90% of the time TR is immune to damage, those fight are now completely lopsided, now to counter TR you need another equally skilled TR or a good melee spec'ed HR and to a lesser degree a GF, who will by no means kill the TR but will survive and contest/keep the node, or any 2 classes against him and even then a good TR can survive quite a while .
I can tell you one thing we will be seeing more TR's in premades, my guess is 2, one for each side node .
Alone, he could stall 3 of my pug mates. Against me, i would say i got my good chances playing it smart. Catching him directly, almost impossible. Pressuring him, fake retreat and frontline to get him off-guard, timing my prones to match the few milliseconds between ITC and dodge roll immunity. Needless to say, if he got SE up, it was a 20k+ crit, pretty much a free kill after you manage to soften up your target enough. Could also tank quite a bit of damage. Even fight/ little difference with him slightly ahead of me perhaps, overall. With me tanking lots of damage and soon enough catching him and locking him in a chain-prone combo. He still got the option to run away in stealth, fully recover and come back (which he did).
Good TRs are now able to stall multiple opponents even better than a sentinel GWF. And shocking execution is basically a free kill to use against tanks or when it's needed.
A GWF playing smart can still match a good TR. HRs too, probably.
Can't see any other class doing the same right now.
Question: is SE working as intended or it's supposed to be affected by tenacity?
More or less agree - if it wasn't for Shocking Execution going through Tenacity I think it might be relatively balanced.
Is there any word if SE is WAI or not?
It has always been like that so I guess it is. Also, Whirlwind of Blades same as SE ignores all resistances including Tenacity. I actually prefer to hit the entire enemy team for 15k+ critical then use SE.
does courage breaker ignore resists too?
I think everyone posted ideas but no reply from "Community Moderators" for any solution.
What I think is a good or bad solution in the long run means little. Cryptic makes the decisions, not me.
They could very well agree with giving some At-Wills cooldowns.
So I resort back to what I said very early on, I don't know what the best solution is but I do not agree with giving At-Wills cooldowns or any solution which negatively effects Guardian Fighters.
I see Players who are smashing all their encounters/dailies into an unstoppable GWF and complaining afterwards how OP a GWF is, I mean srsly... learn how long unstoppable is ongoing, count down for yourself and then use your burst Encounters etc.
I admit that threatening rush + sprint cancelling was kinda stupid and like a little exploit to spam TR like a Gatling Gun on a target but it is fixed. TBH Threatening Rush is not the problem, back in the "Swordmaster" Times I was able to beat and fight well known TRs and CWs (it was just a little bit harder, no gap close but flourish and using my brain handled it oh and I didn't use Tenebrous...), the problem sits infront of the monitor, use just your brain and learn your class before...
GWFs had only 2 great times since closed/open Beta: 35K+ HP + 7 x Tenebrous, after the Tene nerf -> Perfect Vorpal, massive HP and high regeneration (INB4: an Emblem is an artifact and has nothing directly to do with the class GWF, you all can use an Emblem).
Hardcore Nerfs and problems since open beta for GWFs:
Nerf: Bravery from 15% deflection chance down to 8%
Nerf: Unstoppable Recovery from 10 or 15% down to 5% (getting %HP back on activating unstoppable)
Nerf: Slam (A massive tone down on Tick durations and Tick Damage, our only real good AoE Damage Daily)
Bug: Tab Skill was broken for more than 2 Month and often NO unstoppable possible in PvP (fixed)
Nerf: Frontline Surge, 25% lesser Damage
(There were a lot more of smaller Nerfs but those on top hurt at most)
Okay Tenebrous got nerfed, back in the days the only good Damage Source for a GWF Sentinel. Now Tenacity nerfs the Vorpal Crit Damage, was the only high(est) Damage Source (okay sometimes a bit too high lol) for a GWF Sentinel + Healing Depression -> High Regen was the only strong survive Ability for a Sentinel GWF. Now a GWF is just a little bit more Tanky (Tenacity Bonus DR) without a good survive ability anymore. Even when the IV Path would have no Threatening Rush, many People would maybe demand to remove Frontline Surge or would say that Sprint is OP (you can be proned, killed, hurt while sprinting, sprint is nothing special) ... m)
just my 2 cents (and I was never really complaining about the GWF Nerfs, I was never demanding Nerfs for other classes on the Forums because I can use my Brain while playing PvP
Swordfish
I never did understand the rage regarding unstoppable on GWF's, that's always been my cue to kill them outright, a sign of ultimate vulnerability, not an 'ohgod it can't die now' moment. Am I missing something? I mean, it reduces the damage one does a little and heals them, but one could always still burn them down before they could get another one off if timed correctly.... so I'm not seeing the fuss over it?
Then I get on my CW... That's a little more challenging.
Yep, it really is that easy. Nevermind that while we're waiting for Unstoppable to cool-down you're continually closing the gap with TR, wearing down our stamina/dodges, and then finally hitting us with FLS, Take Down, and IBS. Now that we're at 1/3 of our health or so, we can start working on wearing down the remaining 38k HP you have.
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
But no, they had to give them Threatening Rush (which must be the dumbest thing I've ever seen in an MMO) and an AoE big splash multiple target prone (lulz again). On top of that, debuff too for the TR at-will, and always critting bleed, cause smart game mechanics are smart.
There's nothing that comes to my mind but "gg".
Oh yeah, if you ever have an issue with a GWF, it's a L2P one.
Also, if you still have an issue with a GWF after L2Play, then you should know your class is not a 1vs1 one and you shouldn't win against GWF, so reroll if you want to dominate 1vs1.
GG?
GG.
You have said it all. One needs to play very very smart against them GWF, try to lurk in the shadow after they pop unstoppable and pray they don't sprint away out of reach.
THAT is balanced multi-classing.
Jugger Conq GF
....
As you all know my main is a GWF and was always at the top of the lists in pvp PRIOR to the changes with Shadowbreakall. What we got was NOT love, it was poor development and stacking broken game design.
I refused to use the GF <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and still stood strong and was still in the tops. Really, the one poster on the first page said it, it took skill to be a gwf - and again now I say it has fallen to the level of trained monkeys can do that build, just like the perma stealth rogue.
Face the music. They refuse to fix basic issues such as targeting, and plans for the future just show they are going to compound new issues onto the old.
I have no respect for the developers of Neverwinter anymore, its obvious they just want the dollars to keep rolling in as long as possible.
I guess what i am trying to point out is: i think there are a lot of Great Sword Fighters who rely WAY too much on a skill/spell to get closer to a target, and not their own wits.
Then again, the current PvP map in this game is not exactly designed all that well; i mean it does have a couple of LoS spots on the map, but due to the way the combat is built in this game, and the low amount of environmental obstacles to utilize, the PvP feels meaningless and caters to mindless cluster-F@#$'ing.
So i can understand the over-usage of skills to make killing a target quicker... it must get boring running the same PvP map over and over and over.
I think people already know all this and just try to make due with what is available. So i hope Cryptic is taking the "PvP Campaign" seriously, because i want some PvP that actually has meaning to it and makes collaborated success feel more rewarding.