There are countless posts and guides about PvP. For example, i've been posting since ages to explain people how to fight GWFs. Yet, i often find myself cursing my team mates cause when i'm fighting a sentinel they suddenly butt in and start spamming at-wills making him stay in unstoppable all the time. Then i come here on the forums and read some smart guy who just made a post or a nerf request about "unstoppable is so OP GWF are INVULNERABLE all the time what is that <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> i can't kill them they're Always big and RED!!!!111!!!one!!!"
Hold on a sec, those are not some smart guy(s), those are players who actually understand why Unstoppable is sort of bullsh*t insane and urgently needs to be tweaked in order to be somewhat balanced.
Let's look at what Unstoppable gives for now (for all GWFs, excluding some extra bonuses to Destroyers):
>> Much faster At-Will attacks but SLIGHTLY weaker
>> 25-50% DAMAGE REDUCTION based on how much Determination you had.
>> 8-16% LIMITED DURATION TEMPORARY HIT POINTS based on how much Determination you had.
>> IMMUNE TO CONTROL EFFECTS
I don't care about your elitism statements in your last paragraph, but AT LEAST one of these aspects has to be removed or toned down. I personally am completely fine with the faster but slightly weaker At-Will attacks, but either one or more of the other three aspects HAS TO BE tweaked or removed.
Some of the pro GWF statements here are plain ,simple 100% ridicoulous.
That is an offensive two sword class that has 50% time of fighting has 90% DR....really?????And some think that this class does not dererve some balancing acts....or "nerfs" if you like to call them. (Pando excluded ,there is always an exception that verifies the rule ,we say in my country.pando is the exception.)
The GWF is also the one class that have no move to avoid damage and debuffs. No block, no teleport immunity, no dodge roll immunity or ITC. And is melee. That's why they have, as a mechanic, a ability that allows them to turn the damage into "unstoppable". When proned, a GWF can't go unstoppable. GFs, CWs, HRs, GWFs, all have prone powers. Perma hybrid TRs don't need it since they can tank and evade a lot. The key to take down a GWF is Always the same: prone and spike damage, evade and let his unstoppable go to waste, prone and spike DPS again. Now, with healing depression, the monster regenerating issue is gone. TRs and HRs right now are equal match for a GWF. CWs, GFs and DCs need some buffs. If you take the time to look at how premades play, you'll notice that 2v1 sentinels were taken down fast even in module 2. I've proposed changes to the class too, such as moving ArP to STR, making Unstoppable % of damage taken instead of X amount of damage taken to balance it for high HP builds. But, this said, right now a GWF can be taken down 2v1 quite easily. If you still see it as a godlike wall of bricks, it's probably cause you're undergeared/ fighting it the wrong way.
I use a hybrid build, with 30k HP, 2.6k defense and 23% deflection. Far from being OP.
I don't care if the at wills feed the determination or the enc or the high seas or the cloudy skys or whatever.I care that this class is simple plain fact OP.And its ridicoulous OP makes people stay away from PVP.Which is part of the game.
Many "top" GwF PVPers are so low intelllect that do not get it that in the long run they will be left alone to play with their "elite" guildies.
We all saw that the day 1 tenacity patch how many new players tried pvp.Before that who bothered??
To see premades with 2-3 GWF on team that even you fight 3vs 1 you were helpless???
A hybrid TR right now can stall 3 enemies better than a GWF. A HR can be as deadly as a GWF. There are 3 classes that are underpowered in PvP right now: CWs, DCs, GFs. If you still see the GWF as the OP class on top of the pyramid, you probably never fought a good hybrid perma TR or a good HR. The level is the same. I've won matches where the enemy got 2 GWFs and i was the only one in my team. So, more GWFs does not mean victory. Sure thing, it's not like that now with healing depression.
And now some come here to say to us that this is normal .And if you are good player you can beat a sentinel.
Well now is a challenge.Why don't you take a friend's acount gs13-14 toon and fight against a gw 11 sent.And if you win by your "superior" "intellect" and "tactics" and "action dogma" send me a letter.
My GWF is a hybrid build. It's not a tank. First, you should know that "GWFs" are not all the same. Sentinel IV tanks are the "OP GWFs" you're talking about. DPS builds are not OP in any way in PvP, and that's a commonly accepted truth. Now, my DPS hybrid is 13.5k GS, 29k HP, 2.6k def, 23% deflection. Far from being OP or able to probably win against a fully geared tank build. Yet, i'm usually able to fight, and many times kill full sentinel tanks through footwork. My in game name is written in signature. If you want to come with a 11k full tank sentinel we can have a 1v1 match.
Hybrid permastealth TRs are also able to fight and often beat a GWF after the PvP changes. Even in module 2, if you read the comments of many top-level PvPers, a strategy to stall the enemy Sentinel tank was to send the TR to his node. Ask yourself why.
I cannot bear any more nonsense.
Me too...
pando said
"There are countless posts and guides about PvP"..... which are before the IV sent path so they are completely outdated ,obsolete and clueless.
Pando says also that those strategies posted countless times to fight a GWF are even more effective now that they can't regenerate like Wolverine cause of healing depression.
Prone and DPS, don't spam at-wills when the GWF is out of unstoppable, is THE strategy against any GWF build.
This said, it's also been posted countless times how IV builds need some fixes.
In fact, just to let you know, in the past months Pando also posted many changes to balance IV tanks, such as reducing threat rush range.
general speaking I challenge all here the pro GWFs...find me a guide to defeat a sent IV one vs one with high gs.
Posted above. Just the way i deal with IV sentinel tanks. Even at high GS. Prone, DPS, evade, prone, DPS. Quite simple: prone and DPS can be done by almost any class except DCs. TRs and HRs can evade, tank and DPS enough to 1v1 GWFs at same gear score. As said above CWs, DCs and GFs need some buffs.
This said, there is not a guide to allow a 11-12k GS player to beat a 16-17k GS sentinel tank.
Gonna skip the last lines you wrote, don't think they need a comment. So summarize:
right now, hybrid perma TRs are even more dreadful than a GWF in 1v1, and can stall multiple enemies better if well played
HRs, if well built and played, are the same
GWFs are still very powerful, but as many players wrote after the patch, now they can be taken down fast 2v1-3v1 exc...
CWs, DCs, GFs need PvP buffs to be brought on pair with the 3 above classes.
Hold on a sec, those are not some smart guy(s), those are players who actually understand why Unstoppable is sort of bullsh*t insane and urgently needs to be tweaked in order to be somewhat balanced.
Let's look at what Unstoppable gives for now (for all GWFs, excluding some extra bonuses to Destroyers):
>> Much faster At-Will attacks but SLIGHTLY weaker
>> 25-50% DAMAGE REDUCTION based on how much Determination you had.
>> 8-16% LIMITED DURATION TEMPORARY HIT POINTS based on how much Determination you had.
>> IMMUNE TO CONTROL EFFECTS
I don't care about your elitism statements in your last paragraph, but AT LEAST one of these aspects has to be removed or toned down. I personally am completely fine with the faster but slightly weaker At-Will attacks, but either one or more of the other three aspects HAS TO BE tweaked or removed.
But you forgot to say that the GWF can't go unstoppable while proned, can go unstoppable only after taking damage, can't avoid damage and debuffs in any way when he's out of unstoppable or during unstoppable, and can still be avoided by TRs and HRs when he is in unstoppable. The simple way to deal with unstoppable is, as said, to prone/ spike damage with encounters when the GWF is out of unstoppable, then let his unstoppable go to waste, and repeat.
ANY good TR or HR can do that (talking about the classes that right now are balanced).
You seem to think that an enemy should be able to fight-deal damage- face on equal a GWF when he's in unstoppable. It's not like that, as much as an enemy can't face on equal a TR when he's in ITC. Would you tank an ITC TR? No. Does it mean ITC is OP? No. It's a class mechanic. It's a brief period of time when you just can't facetank the enemy. And it has a cost. Cooldown for ITC, damage taken to build determination for the GWF. The key is to deal as much spike DPS to the GWF when he's out of unstoppable, then make him waste his unstoppable.
TRs can go invulnerable with an encounter without taking damage, can be immune during dodge roll, can go stealth, can hit for 21k+ a tank with their daily. These abilities, when used well, make them as strong as a GWF or HR when used well. HRs have a 7k damage at-will, roots, vines, can switch to melee when enemy is CCed and can evade a lot.
Just using vines and roots, DPSing the GWF, evading when he goes unstoppable is something they can do easily.
IVs need to have threat rush range and damage reduced. That is the issue. Swordmasters are ok now.
Unstoppable is not the issue. In fact, Unstoppable is not a problem when you fight a destroyer, and nobody complains about destroyers in PvP. That's why only thing that i would change in Unstoppable is for internal balance, as i already said in many other topics. I would make determination build by a % of total HP loss instead of the X amount of HP lost. This way, it would work the same for High HP builds and low HP builds.
With this in mind, i can comment About the aspects of Unstoppable you mentioned, on a normal HP build:
- much faster at-wills---> threat rush is not "faster" in unstoppable. The animation is still there and the difference is minimal. Sure strike requires the GWF to stand still, so if the TR or HR is moving and evading, the "faster at-will" means nothing, usually
- 25-50% damage reduction---> to have the 50% damage reduction a normal HP GWF needs to lose 30-40% of his total HPs. And can still be debuffed to reduce his armor and deal damage even to an Unstoppable GWF. To have the half-determination Unstoppable (25% DR) you usually lose around 25% of your total HP (slightly above the half determination bar). And again, can still be debuffed.
- Which are temporary. This means that these HPs will go away once unstoppable ends. As i said before: when the GWF is in unstoppable, the TR-HR can stealth and evade, and make his unstoppable go to waste. When i fight sentinel tanks on my hybrid, what do i do? I chain prone them/ DPS them, then evade through footwork while they are in unstoppable and avoid their prones, then attack again. I could beat 40k+ HP sentinels which would destroy me if i tried to facetank them, with this simple strategy. If i can evade and kite many sentinels with sprint, i guess a TR or HR can evade even better than me. I know for sure that many skilled players can do as much as evading for the time the GWF is in unstoppable.
- If Unstoppable would not give immunity to cc effects, it would be a joke for anyone to just cc them for the 4-8 seconds when they are in unstoppable, and then DPS them when unstoppable runs out.
Regeneration and self-healing was the real issue. GWFs were able to regenerate a lot during unstoppable. Now, they can't. All it takes to take a tank GWF down now is the strategy i described above.
I think GWFs, TRs and HRs are where they need to be. The other 3 classes need a buff.
Hold on a sec, those are not some smart guy(s), those are players who actually understand why Unstoppable is sort of bullsh*t insane and urgently needs to be tweaked in order to be somewhat balanced.
Let's look at what Unstoppable gives for now (for all GWFs, excluding some extra bonuses to Destroyers):
>> Much faster At-Will attacks but SLIGHTLY weaker
>> 25-50% DAMAGE REDUCTION based on how much Determination you had.
>> 8-16% LIMITED DURATION TEMPORARY HIT POINTS based on how much Determination you had.
>> IMMUNE TO CONTROL EFFECTS
I don't care about your elitism statements in your last paragraph, but AT LEAST one of these aspects has to be removed or toned down. I personally am completely fine with the faster but slightly weaker At-Will attacks, but either one or more of the other three aspects HAS TO BE tweaked or removed.
Unstoppable/Determination Gain* got a double debuff with tenacity(reason behind it is the same as the one for barkshield)... maybe it is still too strong, but until enough data is gathered will be pretty silly to just give it another nerf so soon. And now with determination drain upon death, soulforge is the same as for the other classes, another good step imo.
What made it so strong in the past was the combo it had with regen and that also had been affected by healing reduction.
lol. "been brought back to normal, they can't tanke 3-5 enemies anymore", so that's the definition of normal? very stupid comment.
And it's obvious that GF powers for a GWF is not working out. Not being able to get away from your enemy is just cruel. And when I say not get away I mean not for a full second will he leave you alone.
GWF is the only class who can just rush node 2 in the start no matter what team he is on. He doesn't give a fk, he knows that he can pummel a whole random team most of the time. And if he is near death he can sprint across the map in a few seconds to recover, leaving everyone left behind in the dust. Compare this to a CW. A CW jumping into node 2 at start against 5 enemies? Dead in 3 seconds. Run away? Nope, not even 5 yards before you drop. Against 3 enemies in the same skill/gear range as you? Same thing. Against 2? Might get away with some luck, if same skill then he will lose the fight if he stays.
HR can get away. TR can get away. GF is a tank so he will probably get backup before he is dead, he can also prone a whole team in one move in theory. Yesterday I ran into the most tanky DC I've ever played against, and this is counting pre-patch too. He could actually get away if near death because the last 10% of his health was like 5 lives of a random CW. So yeah DC shouldn't have a problem getting away either.
Point being, PvP is far from balanced, lol. GWF's can even out damage wizards if high geared in PvE nowadays. CW is getting nerfed and nerfed and others get buffed. PvP as a CW is far from being fun most of the time. PvE it still functions somewhat but with such high geared players a CW can easily be replaced with a GWF in most dungeons.
Maybe you should play your CW how he was meant to be played, if you go onto 2 at the beginning of a match you are doing something wrong, CW is a support class, just like HR and standing off point and out of reach of melee classes is how they must be played, CW is far from helpless a lot of the top tier CW's I know are way more dangerous now than before patch, a good CW can tear through any other class with the best of them (GWF, HR, TR)
As for the GWF replacing a CW in a dungeon, that is a PVE spec'ed GWF who literally will get annihilated when he goes to PVP, the problem comes down to people not knowing how to play their class and not understanding the mechanics of the class they are up against, like I said in previous posts some classes should be buffed, and tweaked slightly, no need to call out for a nerf because you cant figure out how to take down said enemy, that is entirely on you because you are going about it wrong .
lol. "been brought back to normal, they can't tanke 3-5 enemies anymore", so that's the definition of normal? very stupid comment.
And it's obvious that GF powers for a GWF is not working out. Not being able to get away from your enemy is just cruel. And when I say not get away I mean not for a full second will he leave you alone.
GWF is the only class who can just rush node 2 in the start no matter what team he is on. He doesn't give a fk, he knows that he can pummel a whole random team most of the time. And if he is near death he can sprint across the map in a few seconds to recover, leaving everyone left behind in the dust. Compare this to a CW. A CW jumping into node 2 at start against 5 enemies? Dead in 3 seconds. Run away? Nope, not even 5 yards before you drop. Against 3 enemies in the same skill/gear range as you? Same thing. Against 2? Might get away with some luck, if same skill then he will lose the fight if he stays.
HR can get away. TR can get away. GF is a tank so he will probably get backup before he is dead, he can also prone a whole team in one move in theory. Yesterday I ran into the most tanky DC I've ever played against, and this is counting pre-patch too. He could actually get away if near death because the last 10% of his health was like 5 lives of a random CW. So yeah DC shouldn't have a problem getting away either.
Point being, PvP is far from balanced, lol. GWF's can even out damage wizards if high geared in PvE nowadays. CW is getting nerfed and nerfed and others get buffed. PvP as a CW is far from being fun most of the time. PvE it still functions somewhat but with such high geared players a CW can easily be replaced with a GWF in most dungeons.
GWFs right now can be 1v1d by good TRs and good HRs. To be true, a skilled hybrid perma TR vs a clueless 17k GWF tank will destroy it. Wil ltake time, but will destroy it. So i'd say these 3 classes are pretty much balanced. CWs, DCs and GFs need some buffs.
A GWF post-patch can't run to point 2 alone and tank the Whole team. Can only happen now if he far outgear them AND they hare bad PvPers. Can't even 2v1 the "underpowered" classes. 2 good CWs now are enough to effectively take down 1 GWF. Would have a harder time against hybrid-perma TRs.
CWs are a ranged class...tanks are supposed to be the frontline. Are you really suggesting that a CW should be able to be the frontline on node 2 at start, and tank-survive? It's quite obvious that tanks (GFs, GWFs and hybrid-perma TRs) are the ones running in the brawl, and ranged classes stand back and support-focus DPS the enemies.
Point being, PvP is far from balanced, lol. GWF's can even out damage wizards if high geared in PvE nowadays. CW is getting nerfed and nerfed and others get buffed. PvP as a CW is far from being fun most of the time. PvE it still functions somewhat but with such high geared players a CW can easily be replaced with a GWF in most dungeons.
PvP is never balanced, in any game. But after the patch balance in NWO is much higher.
My TR could only dream about fighting GWF in 1v1 before the patch. TR which supposed to be single target dps specialist was torn apart by GWF: IV Sentinels, takedowns spammers, whatever build they had. After the patch it is much different. I can compete with normal GWFs if I'm specced for fighting with them, and it's pretty much 50% win and 50% loss in 1v1, so I'm fine with that. IV Sents are still too much powerful.
About CW... Not sure if you are trolling? CW is still king of PvE. If the team is balanced, I am yet to see other class than CW topping the damage chart. Unless you're talking about 16K dps GWF topping 8K CW.
And in PvP they are finally balanced - deadly but fragile. If you come with a glass cannon build, don't be surprised that if you miss to nuke from afar/CC melee specialist and he is on you, then it's pretty much death for a wizard. That's WAI.
I see wizards who invested in tenacity gear/defense and who think in combat - they can do insane things in PvP, like having zero deaths in the half time of the match, in the end I see them topping the charts with insane scores like 25:3.
And Ice Knife HURTS. I got Ice Knfe hits on me which are of the same magnitude as my Shocking Execution. So yeah, I have T1 PvP set and Ice Knife can take me down from 50% HP easily. So please, don't tell me how the CWs are "nerfed" in PvP.
TR, HR, GWF and CW are more or less OK in PvP, minor adjustments are required here or there. Every of this classes has at least one powerful build for PvP and if its played right can top the PvP chart with great score.
DC/GF are the classes that should be addressed. How many times you see DC in the upper part of the chart at all? And topping it, LOL?
Ratharel - stealthy backstabber from the Myth Drannor
Unstoppable is sort of bullsh*t insane and urgently needs to be tweaked
It's not only that you're wrong. It's also completely irrelevant.
Since the patch, the gwf simply cannot any more gather enough determination to ever activate his Unstoppable. Unstoppable has become a PvE-only feature.
ToD = ..........
Tired of Dailies/Tyranny of Dailies/Timers of Doom/Tricked Or Duped/Tremendously Obnoxious Dailies/Try Otherwise, Devs
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
And in PvP they are finally balanced - deadly but fragile.
CWs do very well if as many of the below points are fulfilled:
- halfling to resist CC as often as possible; this is a free "get out of jail" card - you throw your best CC encounters on it, and he jumps out and CCs you instead.
- BiS gear r9-10s, as much Tenacity/Regen as possible, perfects etc.
- extremely tanky build
- BiS team with 3 point holders that can keep enemy busy at all times; as soon as the enemy can cap 1 point and are smart enough to put a good dedicated player to hunt CW (pro HR/GWF/TR/GF all suited), CW is pretty much taken out of game
- smart play, always running around, supporting where team can be in numeric superiority, running some place else when needed, searching for favorable matchups. Usually when you get a similarly geared opponent directly on you, it's already a bad matchup
And that's about it.
CWs need team to carry them, preferably with many tanks that can prone people, and preferably with people that can actively help the CW if he asks for that help. If your team knows you have a GWF following you and making you useless, and does nothing, you might as well stay in spawn for the rest of the match.
Other classes don't need to be carried this much to be honest. This is why CW is most of the times a horrific experience. Bad team? Nasty.
Team without proper point holders? NASTY. Team not giving you help - so you can help them back? NASTY.
CWs need team to carry them, preferably with many tanks that can prone people, and preferably with people that can actively help the CW if he asks for that help. If your team knows you have a GWF following you and making you useless, and does nothing, you might as well stay in spawn for the rest of the match.
Other classes don't need to be carried this much to be honest. This is why CW is most of the times a horrific experience. Bad team? Nasty.
Team without proper point holders? NASTY. Team not giving you help - so you can help them back? NASTY.
Admittedly an unskilled CW or one in a team that doesn't work together is dead meat. However, a good CW in a good team is a terrifying opponent.
Some classes are not meant to shine in 1v1 fights but in combination with another player are absolutely devastating in 2v2 or higher.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
It's not only that you're wrong. It's also completely irrelevant.
Since the patch, the gwf simply cannot any more gather enough determination to ever activate his Unstoppable. Unstoppable has become a PvE-only feature.
Not true either. Depends on the build. I see GWFs going unstoppable in every match.
However, Unstoppable is not OP at all. The only issue i see with it is that it could use a internal balance fix, which quite simply is to change it from "X amount of HP lost" to "X% of your total HP lost".
This way, a 45k HP build will just go unstoppable like a normal build, not 10 times more.
In the last match i fought, there was a TR who could tank more than a sentinel. I mean, he was REALLY tanky. And he was on top of the chart. Could hit me for 21k with SE. Yet people complained about the GWFs.
Don't you think there are kinda too many things that must come together for a CW to have an enjoyable experience?
Well personal skill is up to the player and some classes will always have a higher skill cap than others.
In MMOs certain classes are like this - they may need a lot of deal of skill to play effectively, and are usually more reliant on their team than more 'solo' classes. However, in compensation, they act as force multipliers in larger fights.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Could hit me for 21k with SE. Yet people complained about the GWFs.
I guess it can't be helped.
Shocking is bugged, goes through Tenacity, and can kill you in a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> mode from almost full HP for some reason - if it crits. Permas with PoB are just as a mess as the BiS IV Sents, hitting all time without needing any skill and able to stay in stealth almost all time.
Well personal skill is up to the player and some classes will always have a higher skill cap than others.
In MMOs certain classes are like this - they may need a lot of deal of skill to play effectively, and are usually more reliant on their team than more 'solo' classes. However, in compensation, they act as force multipliers in larger fights.
^this x10.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Pando said :
"The GWF is also the one class that have no move to avoid damage and debuffs. No block, no teleport immunity, no dodge roll immunity or ITC. And is melee. That's why they have, as a mechanic, a ability that allows them to turn the damage into "unstoppable"."
GWF has sprint.Which none other class have.And it should easily avoid red circles of death in pve.I mean...i am a GF.the slowest of classes.i have a set that gives you a 10% bonus movement.So roughly now i am on par with other classes.
I can dance around bosses if i like especially slow ones.Red zones animation is so slow.And GWF with SPRINT (!) cannot get thier selves out of harm's way???No.i don't buy that.So i think your paragraph about unstop to avoid damage is miscredited according to my experience.
"When proned, a GWF can't go unstoppable."
And how much time a GWF stays prone.You say that like he is prone down 1 minute.Hm.Do you know how mych time a GWf is prone??0.5 secs.pre tenacity.if you take special feats it might go to 0.8 secs.Do you know how much damage you can give him in 1 sec?max 1k att will.or you have to have you r enc READY for him.In any case one enc.No big deal against a sent of 35-38k hp.
"Always the same: prone and spike damage, evade and let his unstoppable go to waste, prone and spike DPS again."
While the other members of the enemy team stay in awe,watch you admirrably still and applaud your tactics....Running around evading in a midst of combat with out hitting you REDUCE your teams overall DPS! Not only thet you expose your self to enemies TR/HR with COMBAT ADVANTAGE.There is always a HR 3-4 metres away.Not a good idea.All good PVPm teams have at least a HR ,they are such good killers from afar!When the GWF goes up you might not lost hp from hi but at 90% of the cases you would have lost min 5 max 10k hp from Tr/HR encs.About your tactic??I think i ll pass
"TRs and HRs right now are equal match for a GWF"
in 1vs1???Not in a million.Only perma TRs and these just stall him.If a GWF is not smart but at least dump he ll focus himself vs the other mellee/support clases and leave Tr alone.
"If you take the time to look at how premades play, you'll notice that 2v1 sentinels were taken down fast even in module 2"
Sorry i did not see that.NEVER.taken down sets FAST 2vs1??No sorry i had not witnessed that EVER!!! EVER!!!Have you?
Pre tenacity???
"f you still see the GWF as the OP class on top of the pyramid, you probably never fought a good hybrid perma TR or a good HR"
I have.TRs are super annoying.But they can be killed in 1 vs 1.Or driven away.Sents in 1vs1??Nope.
"My GWF is a hybrid build. It's not a tank. First, you should know that "GWFs" are not all the same"
Ofcourse i know that.You did not read well my paragraph.I said "And now some come here to say to us that this is normal .And if you are good player you can beat a sentinel."
I said sentinel not GWF....
"Prone and DPS, don't spam at-wills when the GWF is out of unstoppable, is THE strategy against any GWF build."
Out or in of Unstop?You put things very idealistically for an GWF opponent.So he must has his encs ready ,he must plays smart he must have pention he must avoid the enemy tem8 cause he has to preserve encs/dailies.....He must have a big hp pool to withstand the damage while Sent pummels him...And then he uses his encs.Great.12=15 secs of fight and Sent is at still 50% hp pool.And then what?? Rince and repeat.Even with your strat....the gwf opponent will stay out of Hp before the sent!!!Cause 10 secs min the encs to refill gives time the sent time to finish the oponent with just at will.sOr his encs.
lol
ninefingers said
"if you want pvp where everyone is equal, you picked the wrong genre, try COD maybe, an RPG is all about farming your gear, building your character to be good at what you want him to be good at, I cannot stress this enough, this is a RPG!"
I know what rpg is.I know that improving your toon is esential.ofcourse i agree.
My problem is the GWF sents that are op.And yes ninefingers these rules you said do NOT apply to GWF sents.They don't need to farm gear!!A sent with T1 set and rank5s can pummel three players with R7 and T2!THAT IS THE PROBLEM!!!
I understand that you like your GWF sent toon.But you must realize it is OP.Something must change.
Put your self a btit to the other shoes.Imagine a player improving his toon playing countless hours to get his R7/R8 enchants and T2 set.And then with his mates to go pvp and face a sent with LOWER gs and to pummell 2/3 at the same time??
Do you find that ok??Ths is normal for an RPG??The less equipped player to defeat more equipped players by simply clicking?>???
You obviously haven't been playing with or against top tier pvper's, a good TR or HR and even a CW (in the right hands) can take out an equally geared equally skilled sentinel GWF, it depends largely on who missed or avoided the others rotation, and crits .
GWF can no longer 3vs1 or even 2vs1 against any decent player, they will destroy him, now this is not necessarily true with run of the mill pugs, because they lack in skill and gear, this is fact, I have seen it in the 60 or so pvp matches I have done since pvp patch, I would say at least half of those were against premades, my sent GWF has 41K hp, full rank 10's, perfect enchants, 20,5% tenacity, legendary artifacts and all the boons, I consider myself to be a good player, and my only interest in Neverwinter is PVP, in those premades against other pvp oriented guilds, any 2 players of any class will destroy me 9 times out of 10, even if I manage to kill one of them the other one will kill me, by the way I am completely okay with this, 2 good players should be able to off anyone .
A good TR pretty much owns me now in 1vs1, I have been hit for 40K shocking execution more than once, the other classes are open game and can go either way (DC aside who will always die).
Mind you I am talking about good TR's because I will destroy okay TR's fairly easily .
On the other hand I can still rush in and 1vs3 bad pugs of any class and actually have a chance of beating them, this has all to do with skill and gear or lack thereof, so yeah I am not spouting out nonsense GWF is no longer OP as it was before patch, some tweaking remains to be done with the other classes though, no doubt about that .
As for what Pando was saying I back him up 100 percent, we have no means to block or evade incoming damage, sprint can get you out of AOE red circles or attacks with a tight cone of damage but it is no way near as effective as what TR, CW, HR, DC or GF have, which actually avoid the damage entirely on pretty much everything if timed right .
Greetings to all
Firstly, I did not guess be very interested in this subject,
English is not my native language. I am using Google Translate. Anyway, I thought it might be solution to the issue, I gathered some of the ideas from the previous pages.
ranncore :
The whole point of at-wills is that they don't have cooldowns. The animation time for threatening rush should not be increased with Unstoppable - this is a big part of the problem.
Community Moderator:
Pretty much Ranncore's first sentence. An At-Will is at will. No cooldowns.
The bigger question is whether it can even be balanced separately from the GF spell and if not then there's an even bigger problem.
bigbullyboy :
Threatening rush is definitely the ability that creates imbalance with GWF. Playing as GWF without TR requires skill to land encounters. Getting kited is the tradeoff for such high defensive setup. Reducing damage from TR would not fix the problem.
Community Moderator:
another solution to this may be to re-think the paragon paths of the GWF and the GF. while they both are fighter classes, there is a major difference between their tab skills.
kweassa :
A simpler fix then. Remove Threatening Rush as an IV provided at-will, move it to GF common at-will, and then put in something else.
Former Community Moderator:
Rogues have this At-Will called Gloaming Cut. It's semi-ranged, semi-melee like Threatening Rush. Very slow, it homes in on targets, requires some winding up but hits pretty hard and harder when the opponent has less than 50% HP. I can't imagine how it would be if we were able to hit it a lot faster like Threatening Rush.
It's only now that GWF's are getting their due share of the limelight, albeit it being too much from TR + Deep Gash being in T1 Destroyer which gives Sents (who are supposed to be tanks) access to high bursts of DPS.
ratharim:
Some at-wills for other classes have cooldowns, f.e. trickster rogue can't use Cloud of Steel "at will".
pando83 :
The GWF is also the one class that have no move to avoid damage and debuffs. No block, no teleport immunity, no dodge roll immunity or ITC. And is melee. That's why they have, as a mechanic, a ability that allows them to turn the damage into "unstoppable".
Maybe gwf's needs a little advantage. As of Panda83 said Gwf has "No block, no teleport immunity, that immunity is no dodge roll ITC".
GWF must have either defensive or control or speed.
Threatening Rush is the source of imbalance still.
1 - Remove,
2 - Add the cooldown,
3 - Add x number charge, in x sec,
4 - Reduce Range,
5 - Reduce dmg,
Threatening Rush is the source of imbalance still.
1 - Remove,
2 - Add the cooldown,
3 - Add x number charge, in x sec,
4 - Reduce Range,
5 - Reduce dmg,
They are all on the table.
Absolutely ridiculous... There's no reason to even argue with you.
I really have to agree with Chudo, a good TR and a good HR rip through a good GWF as it stands now, its like most of these people complaining haven't even pvp'ed on this new patch... remove or change anything to GWF and he will be completely useless, I am actually gonna roll a HR, GWF OP era is OVER!
I really have to agree with Chudo, a good TR and a good HR rip through a good GWF as it stands now, its like most of these people complaining haven't even pvp'ed on this new patch... remove or change anything to GWF and he will be completely useless, I am actually gonna roll a HR, GWF OP era is OVER!
Yep. The central issue for GWF was the regen stacking, which most good GWFs were using. I was essentially unkillable in most matches with unskilled players, depending on team comp. Generally, in a typical pug match, not premade, it would take 4-5 players to take me down and it wouldn't happen quickly. In a premade 2-3 usually, I typically didn't do 1v1 much. However, in trying to address regen stacking, they ruined some of the core aspects that made PvP fun as it was and now a nightmare of way-too-long matches for most players. I haven't played in days because I got sick of it. It's stupid. The changes they should have made, which many of us suggested countless times, would have been pathetically easy.
A simpler fix then. Remove Threatening Rush as an IV provided at-will, move it to GF common at-will, and then put in something else.
That would work. Replace it with something good out of swordmaster so maybe that paragon path would have a point for GF? Is there anything good in Swordmaster?
Well I guess there is absolutely no way we can convince unskilled players since they keep chiming in on ways to fix something that is not broken, Cryptic will end up giving in to the whiners and nerfing GWF again, and nobody will roll with GWF's anymore NOBODY because he will be USELESS, it is as simple as that, listen to your hardcore pvp base for once .
Back before patch GWF were used to counter TR's in premades, it would make for super long 1vs1's where either side could win, 20 minute or more 1vs1's weren't unheard of, even this is no longer possible, TR's wreck GWF's in a couple of minutes .
Please learn how to play this game and each class before demanding changes, and after that if you still get wrecked then you are hopeless, quit the game and go play hello kitty online .
Well I guess there is absolutely no way we can convince unskilled players since they keep chiming in on ways to fix something that is not broken, Cryptic will end up giving in to the whiners and nerfing GWF again, and nobody will roll with GWF's anymore NOBODY because he will be USELESS, it is as simple as that, listen to your hardcore pvp base for once .
Back before patch GWF were used to counter TR's in premades, it would make for super long 1vs1's where either side could win, 20 minute or more 1vs1's weren't unheard of, even this is no longer possible, TR's wreck GWF's in a couple of minutes .
Please learn how to play this game and each class before demanding changes, and after that if you still get wrecked then you are hopeless, quit the game and go play hello kitty online .
Technically speaking, it's not the GWF is useless, but more of a huge portion of the GWF playerbase is simply the mindless FotM munchkin wannabes that jumped the GWF bandwagon in its hey-day as mod2 started. The only reason the GWF was "viable" for those players was because -- being the ham-fisted inexperienced newbies they are -- they made good use of that walkin' talkin' lump of bullshi* OPness to their favor and that made them "viable".
How could it not be? It's a class that allows a sucky person to win fights which they shouldn't be winning with that sucky skill level.
...
Ofcourse, the new patch duely nerfed the GWF -- surprisingly not Unstoppable itself. But rather, the developers left the Unstoppable mechanic alone, still alowing it the all-so-crucial CC immunity as well as increased damage resistance. However, they did weaken it and remove the "God mode" indirectly by nerfing regen and heals, as well as temporary HP buffers -- but these nerfs being global, not exclusive to the GWF.
The result being, I am now seeing the sucky GWF players getting massacred in droves -- it's been more than a week since the patch yet and they still play it like before. Just blindly, stupidly charging anything in their sight and chasing after anything that moves like a mad dog... and then getting easily picked off and ganged up by the enemy team.
It's comical. Honestly, I thought a huge portion of the GWF player base sucked, but I never realized just how many trash-level, clueless GWFs were there before.
...
So, what's the point of all this, you may wonder.
The point is simple: GWFs have been toned down. Big deal. Good players are still fearful opponents. If the GWF feels useless, I can more or less comfortably bet by left nut that its the player behind it that's the problem. How can you tell anyone to "learn how to play this game and each class before demanding changes", when its the GWF players that are the most clueless bunch in the whole PvP population??
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
First of all I did not say GWF is useless now, I said GWF will be useless if threatening rush is removed, and as to how i can demand it, solo queue and take a look at your team mates and the team opposing you and tell me these people aren't clueless, using wonky builds and useless powers, focusing tanks instead of squishies, standing and fighting next to nodes, 3-4 people chasing the TR around the map, and that good old pug strategy of all going to cap there home node first instead of rushing to 2 etc etc I could continue giving examples all night, I hope you realize that it is these people demanding nerfs left right and center, and the next class to nerf on their list is TR, so yeah we will see how many good TR's are left when they start nerfing its abilities left right and center .
While in this thread 2-3 GWfs generalize ,hide the truth ,manipulate and pretend that are the mistreated class...in a thread far far away in a forum far and away...some GWFs exchange their real views...
"I have a GWF and have not found that problem at all. It is easier now. I take less damage. I pop unstopable more for less damage taken. My unstopable heals me. And in a pinch I have restoring strike. "
"Holding a node against 2 or 3 players for a lengthy amount of time is easy work u"
"Now GWF is slightly less tanky against pugs, but seems like it still retains most of the ability it had in premades"
"It is not about stats. Not sure why even people claim that they are less tanky. They are more so.
Regen - Not needed nice to have though
Life steal - Nice but once again not needed."
"Unstopable - I almost feel like I am spamming this now. It heals and it is based on damage before mitgation comes into factor. So we take less damage now and go into unstopable which heals you more often then we did pre-patch."
"Yes they may have nerfed healing but with all the healing we have it makes no difference"
"We are going into unstopable what feels like twice as fast meaning we are getting healed from our unstopable twice as fast."
Well I guess there is absolutely no way we can convince unskilled players since they keep chiming in on ways to fix something that is not broken, Cryptic will end up giving in to the whiners and nerfing GWF again, and nobody will roll with GWF's anymore NOBODY because he will be USELESS, it is as simple as that, listen to your hardcore pvp base for once .
Back before patch GWF were used to counter TR's in premades, it would make for super long 1vs1's where either side could win, 20 minute or more 1vs1's weren't unheard of, even this is no longer possible, TR's wreck GWF's in a couple of minutes .
Please learn how to play this game and each class before demanding changes, and after that if you still get wrecked then you are hopeless, quit the game and go play hello kitty online .
Sounds to me like you just don't want the crutch you're leaning heavily on to be brought in line with other classes just like every other GWF player not named Ayroux (the only person who would admit that the meta GWF for pvp wasn't balanced and made multiple suggestions of changes that would have balanced them).
Trapublican do you even know how to read? I am really getting the impression I am talking to mentally challenged people, all I have said is instead of nerfing ANY class repeatedly why not buff the others accordingly, I do not understand why this is so hard for you and everyone else to understand, someone at least acknowledge that this would solve the problem without completely destroying any class .
hypervoreian unstoppable isn't more spammable than it was before NOTHING has changed there aside in your head, and in case you haven't noticed you get WAY less HP when you proc it now than pre patch .
And wow really restoring strike in pvp and we are supposed to take anything you say seriously? regen and to a lesser degree lifesteal along side a high HP build WERE the main reasons sentinel GWF were so OP, anyways I am wasting my time here, there will always be part of the community that doesn't know jack about PVP and come on the forums to talk nonsense, I just have to come to terms with that .
Comments
Hold on a sec, those are not some smart guy(s), those are players who actually understand why Unstoppable is sort of bullsh*t insane and urgently needs to be tweaked in order to be somewhat balanced.
Let's look at what Unstoppable gives for now (for all GWFs, excluding some extra bonuses to Destroyers):
>> Much faster At-Will attacks but SLIGHTLY weaker
>> 25-50% DAMAGE REDUCTION based on how much Determination you had.
>> 8-16% LIMITED DURATION TEMPORARY HIT POINTS based on how much Determination you had.
>> IMMUNE TO CONTROL EFFECTS
I don't care about your elitism statements in your last paragraph, but AT LEAST one of these aspects has to be removed or toned down. I personally am completely fine with the faster but slightly weaker At-Will attacks, but either one or more of the other three aspects HAS TO BE tweaked or removed.
The GWF is also the one class that have no move to avoid damage and debuffs. No block, no teleport immunity, no dodge roll immunity or ITC. And is melee. That's why they have, as a mechanic, a ability that allows them to turn the damage into "unstoppable". When proned, a GWF can't go unstoppable. GFs, CWs, HRs, GWFs, all have prone powers. Perma hybrid TRs don't need it since they can tank and evade a lot. The key to take down a GWF is Always the same: prone and spike damage, evade and let his unstoppable go to waste, prone and spike DPS again. Now, with healing depression, the monster regenerating issue is gone. TRs and HRs right now are equal match for a GWF. CWs, GFs and DCs need some buffs. If you take the time to look at how premades play, you'll notice that 2v1 sentinels were taken down fast even in module 2. I've proposed changes to the class too, such as moving ArP to STR, making Unstoppable % of damage taken instead of X amount of damage taken to balance it for high HP builds. But, this said, right now a GWF can be taken down 2v1 quite easily. If you still see it as a godlike wall of bricks, it's probably cause you're undergeared/ fighting it the wrong way.
I use a hybrid build, with 30k HP, 2.6k defense and 23% deflection. Far from being OP.
A hybrid TR right now can stall 3 enemies better than a GWF. A HR can be as deadly as a GWF. There are 3 classes that are underpowered in PvP right now: CWs, DCs, GFs. If you still see the GWF as the OP class on top of the pyramid, you probably never fought a good hybrid perma TR or a good HR. The level is the same. I've won matches where the enemy got 2 GWFs and i was the only one in my team. So, more GWFs does not mean victory. Sure thing, it's not like that now with healing depression.
My GWF is a hybrid build. It's not a tank. First, you should know that "GWFs" are not all the same. Sentinel IV tanks are the "OP GWFs" you're talking about. DPS builds are not OP in any way in PvP, and that's a commonly accepted truth. Now, my DPS hybrid is 13.5k GS, 29k HP, 2.6k def, 23% deflection. Far from being OP or able to probably win against a fully geared tank build. Yet, i'm usually able to fight, and many times kill full sentinel tanks through footwork. My in game name is written in signature. If you want to come with a 11k full tank sentinel we can have a 1v1 match.
Hybrid permastealth TRs are also able to fight and often beat a GWF after the PvP changes. Even in module 2, if you read the comments of many top-level PvPers, a strategy to stall the enemy Sentinel tank was to send the TR to his node. Ask yourself why.
Me too...
Pando says also that those strategies posted countless times to fight a GWF are even more effective now that they can't regenerate like Wolverine cause of healing depression.
Prone and DPS, don't spam at-wills when the GWF is out of unstoppable, is THE strategy against any GWF build.
This said, it's also been posted countless times how IV builds need some fixes.
In fact, just to let you know, in the past months Pando also posted many changes to balance IV tanks, such as reducing threat rush range.
Posted above. Just the way i deal with IV sentinel tanks. Even at high GS. Prone, DPS, evade, prone, DPS. Quite simple: prone and DPS can be done by almost any class except DCs. TRs and HRs can evade, tank and DPS enough to 1v1 GWFs at same gear score. As said above CWs, DCs and GFs need some buffs.
This said, there is not a guide to allow a 11-12k GS player to beat a 16-17k GS sentinel tank.
Gonna skip the last lines you wrote, don't think they need a comment. So summarize:
right now, hybrid perma TRs are even more dreadful than a GWF in 1v1, and can stall multiple enemies better if well played
HRs, if well built and played, are the same
GWFs are still very powerful, but as many players wrote after the patch, now they can be taken down fast 2v1-3v1 exc...
CWs, DCs, GFs need PvP buffs to be brought on pair with the 3 above classes.
But you forgot to say that the GWF can't go unstoppable while proned, can go unstoppable only after taking damage, can't avoid damage and debuffs in any way when he's out of unstoppable or during unstoppable, and can still be avoided by TRs and HRs when he is in unstoppable. The simple way to deal with unstoppable is, as said, to prone/ spike damage with encounters when the GWF is out of unstoppable, then let his unstoppable go to waste, and repeat.
ANY good TR or HR can do that (talking about the classes that right now are balanced).
You seem to think that an enemy should be able to fight-deal damage- face on equal a GWF when he's in unstoppable. It's not like that, as much as an enemy can't face on equal a TR when he's in ITC. Would you tank an ITC TR? No. Does it mean ITC is OP? No. It's a class mechanic. It's a brief period of time when you just can't facetank the enemy. And it has a cost. Cooldown for ITC, damage taken to build determination for the GWF. The key is to deal as much spike DPS to the GWF when he's out of unstoppable, then make him waste his unstoppable.
TRs can go invulnerable with an encounter without taking damage, can be immune during dodge roll, can go stealth, can hit for 21k+ a tank with their daily. These abilities, when used well, make them as strong as a GWF or HR when used well. HRs have a 7k damage at-will, roots, vines, can switch to melee when enemy is CCed and can evade a lot.
Just using vines and roots, DPSing the GWF, evading when he goes unstoppable is something they can do easily.
IVs need to have threat rush range and damage reduced. That is the issue. Swordmasters are ok now.
Unstoppable is not the issue. In fact, Unstoppable is not a problem when you fight a destroyer, and nobody complains about destroyers in PvP. That's why only thing that i would change in Unstoppable is for internal balance, as i already said in many other topics. I would make determination build by a % of total HP loss instead of the X amount of HP lost. This way, it would work the same for High HP builds and low HP builds.
With this in mind, i can comment About the aspects of Unstoppable you mentioned, on a normal HP build:
- much faster at-wills---> threat rush is not "faster" in unstoppable. The animation is still there and the difference is minimal. Sure strike requires the GWF to stand still, so if the TR or HR is moving and evading, the "faster at-will" means nothing, usually
- 25-50% damage reduction---> to have the 50% damage reduction a normal HP GWF needs to lose 30-40% of his total HPs. And can still be debuffed to reduce his armor and deal damage even to an Unstoppable GWF. To have the half-determination Unstoppable (25% DR) you usually lose around 25% of your total HP (slightly above the half determination bar). And again, can still be debuffed.
- Which are temporary. This means that these HPs will go away once unstoppable ends. As i said before: when the GWF is in unstoppable, the TR-HR can stealth and evade, and make his unstoppable go to waste. When i fight sentinel tanks on my hybrid, what do i do? I chain prone them/ DPS them, then evade through footwork while they are in unstoppable and avoid their prones, then attack again. I could beat 40k+ HP sentinels which would destroy me if i tried to facetank them, with this simple strategy. If i can evade and kite many sentinels with sprint, i guess a TR or HR can evade even better than me. I know for sure that many skilled players can do as much as evading for the time the GWF is in unstoppable.
- If Unstoppable would not give immunity to cc effects, it would be a joke for anyone to just cc them for the 4-8 seconds when they are in unstoppable, and then DPS them when unstoppable runs out.
Regeneration and self-healing was the real issue. GWFs were able to regenerate a lot during unstoppable. Now, they can't. All it takes to take a tank GWF down now is the strategy i described above.
I think GWFs, TRs and HRs are where they need to be. The other 3 classes need a buff.
Unstoppable/Determination Gain* got a double debuff with tenacity(reason behind it is the same as the one for barkshield)... maybe it is still too strong, but until enough data is gathered will be pretty silly to just give it another nerf so soon. And now with determination drain upon death, soulforge is the same as for the other classes, another good step imo.
What made it so strong in the past was the combo it had with regen and that also had been affected by healing reduction.
And it's obvious that GF powers for a GWF is not working out. Not being able to get away from your enemy is just cruel. And when I say not get away I mean not for a full second will he leave you alone.
GWF is the only class who can just rush node 2 in the start no matter what team he is on. He doesn't give a fk, he knows that he can pummel a whole random team most of the time. And if he is near death he can sprint across the map in a few seconds to recover, leaving everyone left behind in the dust. Compare this to a CW. A CW jumping into node 2 at start against 5 enemies? Dead in 3 seconds. Run away? Nope, not even 5 yards before you drop. Against 3 enemies in the same skill/gear range as you? Same thing. Against 2? Might get away with some luck, if same skill then he will lose the fight if he stays.
HR can get away. TR can get away. GF is a tank so he will probably get backup before he is dead, he can also prone a whole team in one move in theory. Yesterday I ran into the most tanky DC I've ever played against, and this is counting pre-patch too. He could actually get away if near death because the last 10% of his health was like 5 lives of a random CW. So yeah DC shouldn't have a problem getting away either.
Point being, PvP is far from balanced, lol. GWF's can even out damage wizards if high geared in PvE nowadays. CW is getting nerfed and nerfed and others get buffed. PvP as a CW is far from being fun most of the time. PvE it still functions somewhat but with such high geared players a CW can easily be replaced with a GWF in most dungeons.
As for the GWF replacing a CW in a dungeon, that is a PVE spec'ed GWF who literally will get annihilated when he goes to PVP, the problem comes down to people not knowing how to play their class and not understanding the mechanics of the class they are up against, like I said in previous posts some classes should be buffed, and tweaked slightly, no need to call out for a nerf because you cant figure out how to take down said enemy, that is entirely on you because you are going about it wrong .
GWFs right now can be 1v1d by good TRs and good HRs. To be true, a skilled hybrid perma TR vs a clueless 17k GWF tank will destroy it. Wil ltake time, but will destroy it. So i'd say these 3 classes are pretty much balanced. CWs, DCs and GFs need some buffs.
A GWF post-patch can't run to point 2 alone and tank the Whole team. Can only happen now if he far outgear them AND they hare bad PvPers. Can't even 2v1 the "underpowered" classes. 2 good CWs now are enough to effectively take down 1 GWF. Would have a harder time against hybrid-perma TRs.
CWs are a ranged class...tanks are supposed to be the frontline. Are you really suggesting that a CW should be able to be the frontline on node 2 at start, and tank-survive? It's quite obvious that tanks (GFs, GWFs and hybrid-perma TRs) are the ones running in the brawl, and ranged classes stand back and support-focus DPS the enemies.
I don't get the point.
My TR could only dream about fighting GWF in 1v1 before the patch. TR which supposed to be single target dps specialist was torn apart by GWF: IV Sentinels, takedowns spammers, whatever build they had. After the patch it is much different. I can compete with normal GWFs if I'm specced for fighting with them, and it's pretty much 50% win and 50% loss in 1v1, so I'm fine with that. IV Sents are still too much powerful.
About CW... Not sure if you are trolling? CW is still king of PvE. If the team is balanced, I am yet to see other class than CW topping the damage chart. Unless you're talking about 16K dps GWF topping 8K CW.
And in PvP they are finally balanced - deadly but fragile. If you come with a glass cannon build, don't be surprised that if you miss to nuke from afar/CC melee specialist and he is on you, then it's pretty much death for a wizard. That's WAI.
I see wizards who invested in tenacity gear/defense and who think in combat - they can do insane things in PvP, like having zero deaths in the half time of the match, in the end I see them topping the charts with insane scores like 25:3.
And Ice Knife HURTS. I got Ice Knfe hits on me which are of the same magnitude as my Shocking Execution. So yeah, I have T1 PvP set and Ice Knife can take me down from 50% HP easily. So please, don't tell me how the CWs are "nerfed" in PvP.
TR, HR, GWF and CW are more or less OK in PvP, minor adjustments are required here or there. Every of this classes has at least one powerful build for PvP and if its played right can top the PvP chart with great score.
DC/GF are the classes that should be addressed. How many times you see DC in the upper part of the chart at all? And topping it, LOL?
It's not only that you're wrong. It's also completely irrelevant.
Since the patch, the gwf simply cannot any more gather enough determination to ever activate his Unstoppable. Unstoppable has become a PvE-only feature.
Tired of Dailies/Tyranny of Dailies/Timers of Doom/Tricked Or Duped/Tremendously Obnoxious Dailies/Try Otherwise, Devs
CWs do very well if as many of the below points are fulfilled:
- halfling to resist CC as often as possible; this is a free "get out of jail" card - you throw your best CC encounters on it, and he jumps out and CCs you instead.
- BiS gear r9-10s, as much Tenacity/Regen as possible, perfects etc.
- extremely tanky build
- BiS team with 3 point holders that can keep enemy busy at all times; as soon as the enemy can cap 1 point and are smart enough to put a good dedicated player to hunt CW (pro HR/GWF/TR/GF all suited), CW is pretty much taken out of game
- smart play, always running around, supporting where team can be in numeric superiority, running some place else when needed, searching for favorable matchups. Usually when you get a similarly geared opponent directly on you, it's already a bad matchup
And that's about it.
CWs need team to carry them, preferably with many tanks that can prone people, and preferably with people that can actively help the CW if he asks for that help. If your team knows you have a GWF following you and making you useless, and does nothing, you might as well stay in spawn for the rest of the match.
Other classes don't need to be carried this much to be honest. This is why CW is most of the times a horrific experience. Bad team? Nasty.
Team without proper point holders? NASTY. Team not giving you help - so you can help them back? NASTY.
Admittedly an unskilled CW or one in a team that doesn't work together is dead meat. However, a good CW in a good team is a terrifying opponent.
Some classes are not meant to shine in 1v1 fights but in combination with another player are absolutely devastating in 2v2 or higher.
Don't you think there are kinda too many things that must come together for a CW to have an enjoyable experience?
Not true either. Depends on the build. I see GWFs going unstoppable in every match.
However, Unstoppable is not OP at all. The only issue i see with it is that it could use a internal balance fix, which quite simply is to change it from "X amount of HP lost" to "X% of your total HP lost".
This way, a 45k HP build will just go unstoppable like a normal build, not 10 times more.
In the last match i fought, there was a TR who could tank more than a sentinel. I mean, he was REALLY tanky. And he was on top of the chart. Could hit me for 21k with SE. Yet people complained about the GWFs.
I guess it can't be helped.
Well personal skill is up to the player and some classes will always have a higher skill cap than others.
In MMOs certain classes are like this - they may need a lot of deal of skill to play effectively, and are usually more reliant on their team than more 'solo' classes. However, in compensation, they act as force multipliers in larger fights.
Shocking is bugged, goes through Tenacity, and can kill you in a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> mode from almost full HP for some reason - if it crits. Permas with PoB are just as a mess as the BiS IV Sents, hitting all time without needing any skill and able to stay in stealth almost all time.
^this x10.
"The GWF is also the one class that have no move to avoid damage and debuffs. No block, no teleport immunity, no dodge roll immunity or ITC. And is melee. That's why they have, as a mechanic, a ability that allows them to turn the damage into "unstoppable"."
GWF has sprint.Which none other class have.And it should easily avoid red circles of death in pve.I mean...i am a GF.the slowest of classes.i have a set that gives you a 10% bonus movement.So roughly now i am on par with other classes.
I can dance around bosses if i like especially slow ones.Red zones animation is so slow.And GWF with SPRINT (!) cannot get thier selves out of harm's way???No.i don't buy that.So i think your paragraph about unstop to avoid damage is miscredited according to my experience.
"When proned, a GWF can't go unstoppable."
And how much time a GWF stays prone.You say that like he is prone down 1 minute.Hm.Do you know how mych time a GWf is prone??0.5 secs.pre tenacity.if you take special feats it might go to 0.8 secs.Do you know how much damage you can give him in 1 sec?max 1k att will.or you have to have you r enc READY for him.In any case one enc.No big deal against a sent of 35-38k hp.
"Always the same: prone and spike damage, evade and let his unstoppable go to waste, prone and spike DPS again."
While the other members of the enemy team stay in awe,watch you admirrably still and applaud your tactics....Running around evading in a midst of combat with out hitting you REDUCE your teams overall DPS! Not only thet you expose your self to enemies TR/HR with COMBAT ADVANTAGE.There is always a HR 3-4 metres away.Not a good idea.All good PVPm teams have at least a HR ,they are such good killers from afar!When the GWF goes up you might not lost hp from hi but at 90% of the cases you would have lost min 5 max 10k hp from Tr/HR encs.About your tactic??I think i ll pass
"TRs and HRs right now are equal match for a GWF"
in 1vs1???Not in a million.Only perma TRs and these just stall him.If a GWF is not smart but at least dump he ll focus himself vs the other mellee/support clases and leave Tr alone.
"If you take the time to look at how premades play, you'll notice that 2v1 sentinels were taken down fast even in module 2"
Sorry i did not see that.NEVER.taken down sets FAST 2vs1??No sorry i had not witnessed that EVER!!! EVER!!!Have you?
Pre tenacity???
"f you still see the GWF as the OP class on top of the pyramid, you probably never fought a good hybrid perma TR or a good HR"
I have.TRs are super annoying.But they can be killed in 1 vs 1.Or driven away.Sents in 1vs1??Nope.
"My GWF is a hybrid build. It's not a tank. First, you should know that "GWFs" are not all the same"
Ofcourse i know that.You did not read well my paragraph.I said "And now some come here to say to us that this is normal .And if you are good player you can beat a sentinel."
I said sentinel not GWF....
"Prone and DPS, don't spam at-wills when the GWF is out of unstoppable, is THE strategy against any GWF build."
Out or in of Unstop?You put things very idealistically for an GWF opponent.So he must has his encs ready ,he must plays smart he must have pention he must avoid the enemy tem8 cause he has to preserve encs/dailies.....He must have a big hp pool to withstand the damage while Sent pummels him...And then he uses his encs.Great.12=15 secs of fight and Sent is at still 50% hp pool.And then what?? Rince and repeat.Even with your strat....the gwf opponent will stay out of Hp before the sent!!!Cause 10 secs min the encs to refill gives time the sent time to finish the oponent with just at will.sOr his encs.
lol
ninefingers said
"if you want pvp where everyone is equal, you picked the wrong genre, try COD maybe, an RPG is all about farming your gear, building your character to be good at what you want him to be good at, I cannot stress this enough, this is a RPG!"
I know what rpg is.I know that improving your toon is esential.ofcourse i agree.
My problem is the GWF sents that are op.And yes ninefingers these rules you said do NOT apply to GWF sents.They don't need to farm gear!!A sent with T1 set and rank5s can pummel three players with R7 and T2!THAT IS THE PROBLEM!!!
I understand that you like your GWF sent toon.But you must realize it is OP.Something must change.
Put your self a btit to the other shoes.Imagine a player improving his toon playing countless hours to get his R7/R8 enchants and T2 set.And then with his mates to go pvp and face a sent with LOWER gs and to pummell 2/3 at the same time??
Do you find that ok??Ths is normal for an RPG??The less equipped player to defeat more equipped players by simply clicking?>???
GWF can no longer 3vs1 or even 2vs1 against any decent player, they will destroy him, now this is not necessarily true with run of the mill pugs, because they lack in skill and gear, this is fact, I have seen it in the 60 or so pvp matches I have done since pvp patch, I would say at least half of those were against premades, my sent GWF has 41K hp, full rank 10's, perfect enchants, 20,5% tenacity, legendary artifacts and all the boons, I consider myself to be a good player, and my only interest in Neverwinter is PVP, in those premades against other pvp oriented guilds, any 2 players of any class will destroy me 9 times out of 10, even if I manage to kill one of them the other one will kill me, by the way I am completely okay with this, 2 good players should be able to off anyone .
A good TR pretty much owns me now in 1vs1, I have been hit for 40K shocking execution more than once, the other classes are open game and can go either way (DC aside who will always die).
Mind you I am talking about good TR's because I will destroy okay TR's fairly easily .
On the other hand I can still rush in and 1vs3 bad pugs of any class and actually have a chance of beating them, this has all to do with skill and gear or lack thereof, so yeah I am not spouting out nonsense GWF is no longer OP as it was before patch, some tweaking remains to be done with the other classes though, no doubt about that .
As for what Pando was saying I back him up 100 percent, we have no means to block or evade incoming damage, sprint can get you out of AOE red circles or attacks with a tight cone of damage but it is no way near as effective as what TR, CW, HR, DC or GF have, which actually avoid the damage entirely on pretty much everything if timed right .
Firstly, I did not guess be very interested in this subject,
English is not my native language. I am using Google Translate. Anyway, I thought it might be solution to the issue, I gathered some of the ideas from the previous pages.
ranncore :
The whole point of at-wills is that they don't have cooldowns. The animation time for threatening rush should not be increased with Unstoppable - this is a big part of the problem.
Community Moderator:
Pretty much Ranncore's first sentence. An At-Will is at will. No cooldowns.
The bigger question is whether it can even be balanced separately from the GF spell and if not then there's an even bigger problem.
bigbullyboy :
Threatening rush is definitely the ability that creates imbalance with GWF. Playing as GWF without TR requires skill to land encounters. Getting kited is the tradeoff for such high defensive setup. Reducing damage from TR would not fix the problem.
Community Moderator:
another solution to this may be to re-think the paragon paths of the GWF and the GF. while they both are fighter classes, there is a major difference between their tab skills.
kweassa :
A simpler fix then. Remove Threatening Rush as an IV provided at-will, move it to GF common at-will, and then put in something else.
Former Community Moderator:
Rogues have this At-Will called Gloaming Cut. It's semi-ranged, semi-melee like Threatening Rush. Very slow, it homes in on targets, requires some winding up but hits pretty hard and harder when the opponent has less than 50% HP. I can't imagine how it would be if we were able to hit it a lot faster like Threatening Rush.
It's only now that GWF's are getting their due share of the limelight, albeit it being too much from TR + Deep Gash being in T1 Destroyer which gives Sents (who are supposed to be tanks) access to high bursts of DPS.
ratharim:
Some at-wills for other classes have cooldowns, f.e. trickster rogue can't use Cloud of Steel "at will".
pando83 :
The GWF is also the one class that have no move to avoid damage and debuffs. No block, no teleport immunity, no dodge roll immunity or ITC. And is melee. That's why they have, as a mechanic, a ability that allows them to turn the damage into "unstoppable".
Maybe gwf's needs a little advantage. As of Panda83 said Gwf has "No block, no teleport immunity, that immunity is no dodge roll ITC".
GWF must have either defensive or control or speed.
Threatening Rush is the source of imbalance still.
1 - Remove,
2 - Add the cooldown,
3 - Add x number charge, in x sec,
4 - Reduce Range,
5 - Reduce dmg,
They are all on the table.
Absolutely ridiculous... There's no reason to even argue with you.
Yep. The central issue for GWF was the regen stacking, which most good GWFs were using. I was essentially unkillable in most matches with unskilled players, depending on team comp. Generally, in a typical pug match, not premade, it would take 4-5 players to take me down and it wouldn't happen quickly. In a premade 2-3 usually, I typically didn't do 1v1 much. However, in trying to address regen stacking, they ruined some of the core aspects that made PvP fun as it was and now a nightmare of way-too-long matches for most players. I haven't played in days because I got sick of it. It's stupid. The changes they should have made, which many of us suggested countless times, would have been pathetically easy.
Back before patch GWF were used to counter TR's in premades, it would make for super long 1vs1's where either side could win, 20 minute or more 1vs1's weren't unheard of, even this is no longer possible, TR's wreck GWF's in a couple of minutes .
Please learn how to play this game and each class before demanding changes, and after that if you still get wrecked then you are hopeless, quit the game and go play hello kitty online .
Technically speaking, it's not the GWF is useless, but more of a huge portion of the GWF playerbase is simply the mindless FotM munchkin wannabes that jumped the GWF bandwagon in its hey-day as mod2 started. The only reason the GWF was "viable" for those players was because -- being the ham-fisted inexperienced newbies they are -- they made good use of that walkin' talkin' lump of bullshi* OPness to their favor and that made them "viable".
How could it not be? It's a class that allows a sucky person to win fights which they shouldn't be winning with that sucky skill level.
...
Ofcourse, the new patch duely nerfed the GWF -- surprisingly not Unstoppable itself. But rather, the developers left the Unstoppable mechanic alone, still alowing it the all-so-crucial CC immunity as well as increased damage resistance. However, they did weaken it and remove the "God mode" indirectly by nerfing regen and heals, as well as temporary HP buffers -- but these nerfs being global, not exclusive to the GWF.
The result being, I am now seeing the sucky GWF players getting massacred in droves -- it's been more than a week since the patch yet and they still play it like before. Just blindly, stupidly charging anything in their sight and chasing after anything that moves like a mad dog... and then getting easily picked off and ganged up by the enemy team.
It's comical. Honestly, I thought a huge portion of the GWF player base sucked, but I never realized just how many trash-level, clueless GWFs were there before.
...
So, what's the point of all this, you may wonder.
The point is simple: GWFs have been toned down. Big deal. Good players are still fearful opponents. If the GWF feels useless, I can more or less comfortably bet by left nut that its the player behind it that's the problem. How can you tell anyone to "learn how to play this game and each class before demanding changes", when its the GWF players that are the most clueless bunch in the whole PvP population??
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?629771-not-possible-to-be-godly-GWF-tank-in-pvp-anymore
"I have a GWF and have not found that problem at all. It is easier now. I take less damage. I pop unstopable more for less damage taken. My unstopable heals me. And in a pinch I have restoring strike. "
"Holding a node against 2 or 3 players for a lengthy amount of time is easy work u"
"Now GWF is slightly less tanky against pugs, but seems like it still retains most of the ability it had in premades"
"It is not about stats. Not sure why even people claim that they are less tanky. They are more so.
Regen - Not needed nice to have though
Life steal - Nice but once again not needed."
"Unstopable - I almost feel like I am spamming this now. It heals and it is based on damage before mitgation comes into factor. So we take less damage now and go into unstopable which heals you more often then we did pre-patch."
"Yes they may have nerfed healing but with all the healing we have it makes no difference"
"We are going into unstopable what feels like twice as fast meaning we are getting healed from our unstopable twice as fast."
lol...
Sounds to me like you just don't want the crutch you're leaning heavily on to be brought in line with other classes just like every other GWF player not named Ayroux (the only person who would admit that the meta GWF for pvp wasn't balanced and made multiple suggestions of changes that would have balanced them).
hypervoreian unstoppable isn't more spammable than it was before NOTHING has changed there aside in your head, and in case you haven't noticed you get WAY less HP when you proc it now than pre patch .
And wow really restoring strike in pvp and we are supposed to take anything you say seriously? regen and to a lesser degree lifesteal along side a high HP build WERE the main reasons sentinel GWF were so OP, anyways I am wasting my time here, there will always be part of the community that doesn't know jack about PVP and come on the forums to talk nonsense, I just have to come to terms with that .