Not to directly dispute the above, but you can do a pretty credible job of keeping everything, not just the big stuff, aggro on you while clearing trash (SP,TOS,MC,CN, etc.) but you will really only want to do it with people you trust. i.e. you won't live long if the healer doesn't drop a circle for you to collect em to, and the CW doesn't interrupt frequently, etc. And you will need to ping-pong around like a spaz to pick up leakers. But it works quite well when you can. You can also do a very credible job face tanking everything when you massively outgear the content (e.g. 19k GS GF w/ 50% mitigation, 20% deflect, 1200 lifesteal, 2k regen vs. T1 trash packs = WIN). Sure, pure dps CAN still pull aggro, but they have to work at it a bit.
The other time you'll have hold aggro on everything EXCEPT the boss is on kite fights, like all 3 bosses in karra, and (usually) SP3. And there are some other fights that work well with the "collect everything and AE" strat (CN1,2). So strong individual/group non-dps-based aggro is really good/needed for GFs, at least on some of the content. Speeds things up a lot by helping the CC to keep everything in one spot so all the AE DPS is shared.
Not to directly dispute the above, but you can do a pretty credible job of keeping everything, not just the big stuff, aggro on you while clearing trash (SP,TOS,MC,CN, etc.) but you will really only want to do it with people you trust. i.e. you won't live long if the healer doesn't drop a circle for you to collect em to, and the CW doesn't interrupt frequently, etc. And you will need to ping-pong around like a spaz to pick up leakers. But it works quite well when you can. You can also do a very credible job face tanking everything when you massively outgear the content (e.g. 19k GS GF w/ 50% mitigation, 20% deflect, 1200 lifesteal, 2k regen vs. T1 trash packs = WIN). Sure, pure dps CAN still pull aggro, but they have to work at it a bit.
The other time you'll have hold aggro on everything EXCEPT the boss is on kite fights, like all 3 bosses in karra, and (usually) SP3. And there are some other fights that work well with the "collect everything and AE" strat (CN1,2). So strong individual/group non-dps-based aggro is really good/needed for GFs, at least on some of the content. Speeds things up a lot by helping the CC to keep everything in one spot so all the AE DPS is shared.
I play TOP Tier with Rank 10's/Perfect geared Teammates and our CWs do godly more damage and it's impossible to hold aggro over the amount of damage they are pushing out. The issue is the game isn't designed to "tank" but "control" trash/packs.
Under geared players are able to "TANK" but as CW/GWFs reach top gear/enchants their DPS out threats the TPS of a GF. Making it impossible to hold aggro on more than a single target. I've been playing a GF since BETA and I used to be able to tank just fine and holding aggro even before the nerf to Cleric threat generation. Playing with the same friends since then the CW's/GWF DMG just scales to well and reaches a point that the GF just can't generate enough threat over their DPS.
And when/if he gets to "TOP Tier with Rank 10's/Perfect geared Teammates", you are right! He won't hold aggro. Until then tho, all that stuff I mentioned is a bit more applicable, agreed? Right now, he said he's level 30... I'm just guessing, but I don't think your particular situation (being impossibly out TPSed by DPSers) will be a problem for him for quite awhile. Or ever.
Like said right at the beginning of my post, I wasn't disputing your conclusion directly, just trying to point out that it's maybe more of an edge case than a general one... I do understand *and agree* with your observations re: extreme end game design, but that's not the part of the game the rest of us will be playing.
Note- edited for content and tone, first version sounded too snarky, and that's not what I was intending, sorry.
And when/if he gets to "TOP Tier with Rank 10's/Perfect geared Teammates", you are right! He won't hold aggro. Until then tho, all that stuff I mentioned is a bit more applicable, agreed? Right now, he said he's level 30... I'm just guessing, but I don't think your particular situation (being impossibly out TPSed by DPSers) will be a problem for him for quite awhile. Or ever.
Like said right at the beginning of my post, I wasn't disputing your conclusion directly, just trying to point out that it's maybe more of an edge case than a general one... I do understand *and agree* with your observations re: extreme end game design, but that's not the part of the game the rest of us will be playing.
Note- edited for content and tone, first version sounded too snarky, and that's not what I was intending, sorry.
The issue I'm referring to happens at all levels. If the DPS is out TPS (Threat Per Second) than the GF, you will never be able to hold aggro. You can build your GF towards generating as much threat as possible with the 15% bonus and using skills that generate large amounts of threat. But if you are still having issues holding aggro it's because your DPS are just generating more threat.
You'll notice this a lot while leveling because of a high difference in levels and gear between players. But as I said the game just isn't designed to be tank/spanked like most other MMORPGs. So don't get frustrated if the tanking system isn't playing as you expected.
This is also why there are many QQ threads about why all other classes are not needed and only CWs are wanted for PvE. Because the game is designed around zerging & controlling trash vs. tanking/spanking. CWs are the kings of PvE with the control and dmg. Even with my groups of friends I've been playing with since beta even prefer to take another CW than my Hunter or GF. Because CW's are just superior when it comes to PvE.
Unfortunately there's been aspects of this kind of imbalance in a LOT of mmos, for a very long time... it's a tough design issue. But at least in NW there are some decent tools available to GFs to help mitigate it, and the (general) level of play is a lot more casual/hit-and-miss, so it's still (relatively) manageable for the non-hardcore.
It's better than it used to be anyway... when MTing raids in EQ with a warrior (yes I'm old), I'd have to:
- use careful timing of threat builders and understanding of the threat mechanic
- load up with clicky items (mobs hated dispels a LOT, for instance)
- self-heals (couldn't equip the pally quest sword, but COULD use the cheals it cast)
- wacky weapons (a "mossy twig" that was very low damage BUT insanely fast, since mobs hated getting hit MORE OFTEN far more than they hated getting hit HARD)
- select sets of buffs/debuffs (weapon procs that generated threat, reverse damage shields like mark of karn)
- strict position and orientation control, and aggro-order (side observation: does anyone in NW even know what a LOS pull is?)
- flat out quirks, like force-procing, or the knowledge mobs WOULD NOT TOLERATE any "sitting" when aggro (to prevent casters regaining mana)... if you lost aggro to an enthusiastic nuker, you could sit down and grab it back, etc.
While some of those sound quaint now, quite a few of those concepts still work in NW too. And, honestly, the bar isn't too high... with the tools available in this game, holding aggro on packs for *most* situations (i.e. explicitly excluding extremely under geared warriors/over geared dps, as you have correctly pointed out) is quite do-able, and useful to the group. Can a good CWs do it as well with sing.? Yep. Would the game benefit from some balance tweaking to level things out a bit? Also yep. Is the rather simplistic threat system in NW ultimately fundamentally flawed? Very probably true also. But despite all that (and much more, obviously), GFs still can tank stuff (at least acceptably successfully) for *most* conditions/situations.
As a (somewhat reformed) min/max-er myself, the problems ARE a concern, but (so far for me, up thru all the current content) they haven't proven insurmountable. Tho, based on your experiences, they will eventually...
@remfdt GF is the MT as in takes the big guy away from the rest much like in vanilla wow. When it comes to adds gwf and cw have the best tools to handle them, while you can provide with marks increase dmg and mitigation for your gwf and alot of power with your armor set for everyone, add debuffs on target with his weapon enchant and give speed with ap generation for party. So till here it is more of a leader but a GF is your best friend at bosses under 25% HP when they become a real threat and you want to finish the job as quickly as possible and also can put up good dps (half the dmg of a cw or gwf) during trash part, but alot of their dmg is cause of you.
@remfdt GF is the MT as in takes the big guy away from the rest much like in vanilla wow. When it comes to adds gwf and cw have the best tools to handle them, while you can provide with marks increase dmg and mitigation for your gwf and alot of power with your armor set for everyone, add debuffs on target with his weapon enchant and give speed with ap generation for party. So till here it is more of a leader but a GF is your best friend at bosses under 25% HP when they become a real threat and you want to finish the job as quickly as possible and also can put up good dps (half the dmg of a cw or gwf) during trash part, but alot of their dmg is cause of you.
Agreed that the GF can be a really good buff class. Using GPF, Knights Valor, Into the Fray you can do some decent buffs. Combine that with say an HR & DC you've got a pretty large amount of buffs.
Agreed that the GF can be a really good buff class. Using GPF, Knights Valor, Into the Fray you can do some decent buffs. Combine that with say an HR & DC you've got a pretty large amount of buffs.
And that is my setup for now since I went to Swordmaster path and Tactician tree again with my Guardian Fighter.
Damage-wise I have lost too much now to be of any real use if I try to play like back when I used Conquerer, Iron Vanguard and Steel Bulwark. Meanwhile, I use (as At-Wills) Weapon Master's Strike (instead of Cleave because it hits two times in a bigger range) and Tide of Iron (for the debuff).
I hope that they would change Weapon Master's Strike (for the GF) so that it marks its targets too making Enhanced Mark more viable for the Swordmaster path. Right now I just use Steel Defence and Steel Grace for PvP and PvE, Steel Blitz only for quests and soloplay.
The issue I'm referring to happens at all levels. If the DPS is out TPS (Threat Per Second) than the GF, you will never be able to hold aggro. You can build your GF towards generating as much threat as possible with the 15% bonus and using skills that generate large amounts of threat. But if you are still having issues holding aggro it's because your DPS are just generating more threat.
You'll notice this a lot while leveling because of a high difference in levels and gear between players. But as I said the game just isn't designed to be tank/spanked like most other MMORPGs. So don't get frustrated if the tanking system isn't playing as you expected.
This is also why there are many QQ threads about why all other classes are not needed and only CWs are wanted for PvE. Because the game is designed around zerging & controlling trash vs. tanking/spanking. CWs are the kings of PvE with the control and dmg. Even with my groups of friends I've been playing with since beta even prefer to take another CW than my Hunter or GF. Because CW's are just superior when it comes to PvE.
I hate to agree with this, but I do. IV Sent will almost always be preferable to GF, and CW preferable to that. Assuming the party isn't horrible. An undergeared party is more easily dragged through a run/pvp match by a sent gwf than a gf. CW is simply the optimal class. Suboptimal is where the other classes come into relevance, in a kind of hierarchy of utility.
If I remember I'll test my Regen GF on the PTR this weekend and write back how much of a Healing debuff players are receiving. I bet it is that bad otherwise DC's would become pretty worthless in PvP.
Sorry to bug you dkcandy, but just wanted your opinion on the best PvE feat build with the Knight Captain set. I checked all the nwcalc links in your posts but the feats aren't displaying correctly for me. The build you are using is fun for PvP, but I don't think I'm getting enough bang for the buck in epic dungeons with the 10 points in Conquerer to get reinforced surge. I think those 10 points in Protector would be better, Plate Agility and Shield Defense maybe? FYI I'm using a Half-orc, thought about re-rolling to Halfling to get the extra deflect and control resist but didn't feel like starting Sharandar/Dread Ring all over again.
If I remember I'll test my Regen GF on the PTR this weekend and write back how much of a Healing debuff players are receiving. I bet it is that bad otherwise DC's would become pretty worthless in PvP.
Any word on the regen nerf? Does this affect your opinion of your regen build at all, dkcandy? If so, what changes do you anticipate making to it?
Any update coming up to the PvP build considering all the changes in HP regen and the addition of tenacity?
0
dehazeMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited June 2014
If this was answered earlier in the thread, I apologize for missing it. 47 pages of information blitz has numbed my brain....
I like the idea behind your Knight's Captain build, and plan to work towards it for tanking when I reach 60. One point I was unclear on though- for Feat choices, do you recommend following the PvE DPS or PvE Tank list you have posted?
My first hunch would be for the Tank list, but since the KC build is tagged as a DPS/Tank hybrid, I wasn't certain. Hope I hear from you soon, since I'm already holding one Feat point back- don't want to spend on a respec token if I can avoid it.
EDIT: Exhaustion made me derp apparently. Skimmed back through a few pages after a night's sleep, and from what I saw decided to stat with the PvE Tank feat list on Page 1. Going to do all the points in Conqueror feats first, then decide with the last ones whether to go for the Protector feats or go with the Crushing Pin and Battle Trample from Tactician. Gives me another 20 levels to gather practical experiences and make up my mind.
Comments
The other time you'll have hold aggro on everything EXCEPT the boss is on kite fights, like all 3 bosses in karra, and (usually) SP3. And there are some other fights that work well with the "collect everything and AE" strat (CN1,2). So strong individual/group non-dps-based aggro is really good/needed for GFs, at least on some of the content. Speeds things up a lot by helping the CC to keep everything in one spot so all the AE DPS is shared.
I play TOP Tier with Rank 10's/Perfect geared Teammates and our CWs do godly more damage and it's impossible to hold aggro over the amount of damage they are pushing out. The issue is the game isn't designed to "tank" but "control" trash/packs.
Under geared players are able to "TANK" but as CW/GWFs reach top gear/enchants their DPS out threats the TPS of a GF. Making it impossible to hold aggro on more than a single target. I've been playing a GF since BETA and I used to be able to tank just fine and holding aggro even before the nerf to Cleric threat generation. Playing with the same friends since then the CW's/GWF DMG just scales to well and reaches a point that the GF just can't generate enough threat over their DPS.
Like said right at the beginning of my post, I wasn't disputing your conclusion directly, just trying to point out that it's maybe more of an edge case than a general one... I do understand *and agree* with your observations re: extreme end game design, but that's not the part of the game the rest of us will be playing.
Note- edited for content and tone, first version sounded too snarky, and that's not what I was intending, sorry.
The issue I'm referring to happens at all levels. If the DPS is out TPS (Threat Per Second) than the GF, you will never be able to hold aggro. You can build your GF towards generating as much threat as possible with the 15% bonus and using skills that generate large amounts of threat. But if you are still having issues holding aggro it's because your DPS are just generating more threat.
You'll notice this a lot while leveling because of a high difference in levels and gear between players. But as I said the game just isn't designed to be tank/spanked like most other MMORPGs. So don't get frustrated if the tanking system isn't playing as you expected.
This is also why there are many QQ threads about why all other classes are not needed and only CWs are wanted for PvE. Because the game is designed around zerging & controlling trash vs. tanking/spanking. CWs are the kings of PvE with the control and dmg. Even with my groups of friends I've been playing with since beta even prefer to take another CW than my Hunter or GF. Because CW's are just superior when it comes to PvE.
It's better than it used to be anyway... when MTing raids in EQ with a warrior (yes I'm old), I'd have to:
- use careful timing of threat builders and understanding of the threat mechanic
- load up with clicky items (mobs hated dispels a LOT, for instance)
- self-heals (couldn't equip the pally quest sword, but COULD use the cheals it cast)
- wacky weapons (a "mossy twig" that was very low damage BUT insanely fast, since mobs hated getting hit MORE OFTEN far more than they hated getting hit HARD)
- select sets of buffs/debuffs (weapon procs that generated threat, reverse damage shields like mark of karn)
- strict position and orientation control, and aggro-order (side observation: does anyone in NW even know what a LOS pull is?)
- flat out quirks, like force-procing, or the knowledge mobs WOULD NOT TOLERATE any "sitting" when aggro (to prevent casters regaining mana)... if you lost aggro to an enthusiastic nuker, you could sit down and grab it back, etc.
While some of those sound quaint now, quite a few of those concepts still work in NW too. And, honestly, the bar isn't too high... with the tools available in this game, holding aggro on packs for *most* situations (i.e. explicitly excluding extremely under geared warriors/over geared dps, as you have correctly pointed out) is quite do-able, and useful to the group. Can a good CWs do it as well with sing.? Yep. Would the game benefit from some balance tweaking to level things out a bit? Also yep. Is the rather simplistic threat system in NW ultimately fundamentally flawed? Very probably true also. But despite all that (and much more, obviously), GFs still can tank stuff (at least acceptably successfully) for *most* conditions/situations.
As a (somewhat reformed) min/max-er myself, the problems ARE a concern, but (so far for me, up thru all the current content) they haven't proven insurmountable. Tho, based on your experiences, they will eventually...
Agreed that the GF can be a really good buff class. Using GPF, Knights Valor, Into the Fray you can do some decent buffs. Combine that with say an HR & DC you've got a pretty large amount of buffs.
And that is my setup for now since I went to Swordmaster path and Tactician tree again with my Guardian Fighter.
Damage-wise I have lost too much now to be of any real use if I try to play like back when I used Conquerer, Iron Vanguard and Steel Bulwark. Meanwhile, I use (as At-Wills) Weapon Master's Strike (instead of Cleave because it hits two times in a bigger range) and Tide of Iron (for the debuff).
I hope that they would change Weapon Master's Strike (for the GF) so that it marks its targets too making Enhanced Mark more viable for the Swordmaster path. Right now I just use Steel Defence and Steel Grace for PvP and PvE, Steel Blitz only for quests and soloplay.
I hate to agree with this, but I do. IV Sent will almost always be preferable to GF, and CW preferable to that. Assuming the party isn't horrible. An undergeared party is more easily dragged through a run/pvp match by a sent gwf than a gf. CW is simply the optimal class. Suboptimal is where the other classes come into relevance, in a kind of hierarchy of utility.
Jugger Conq GF
....
GF is getting a lot of buffs, but they are also nerfing sustained healing like regen in PVP. I'd be curious to hear what experienced people think.
Any word on the regen nerf? Does this affect your opinion of your regen build at all, dkcandy? If so, what changes do you anticipate making to it?
I won't make any comments till changes hit live. But when I tested it a few weeks ago it was a 50% healing debuff.
I like the idea behind your Knight's Captain build, and plan to work towards it for tanking when I reach 60. One point I was unclear on though- for Feat choices, do you recommend following the PvE DPS or PvE Tank list you have posted?
My first hunch would be for the Tank list, but since the KC build is tagged as a DPS/Tank hybrid, I wasn't certain. Hope I hear from you soon, since I'm already holding one Feat point back- don't want to spend on a respec token if I can avoid it.
EDIT: Exhaustion made me derp apparently. Skimmed back through a few pages after a night's sleep, and from what I saw decided to stat with the PvE Tank feat list on Page 1. Going to do all the points in Conqueror feats first, then decide with the last ones whether to go for the Protector feats or go with the Crushing Pin and Battle Trample from Tactician. Gives me another 20 levels to gather practical experiences and make up my mind.