That's not going to help you my friend.. its only going to get you killed.
Nerfing CW AoE powers means.... well, you're not going to survive either.
Because your class wasn't designed to do it, or survive it. That was the point of a Wizard. Not even the strongest guardian fighter can take on that many mobs. He's going to die. Rogue can run, and probably escape, but he's also going to die if he sticks around.
I'm telling you... its a really bad idea with the way these dungeons are designed.
Nope. Everyone asking for CW AOE DPS nerfs is also asking for the reversal of AOE CC/action point gain nerfs, so that CWs can control everything, like they used to in beta, before they realized they had AOE dps spells and CC became an afterthought.
Guess what, before HV bug the following spells were never used by CWs, when the HV nerf became widely known all CWs had to respec to unlock these powers, because they never used them: Oppressive Force, Shard of the Endless Avalanche, Sudden Storm*. (not HV related but this power wasn't used until cw's realized they could deal aoe dmg, which was after the HV bug)
And we cleared all the dungeons fine (and they were much harder back then), before artifacts, before boons, before companion bonuses, before 13k+ gs. when 8k gs was t1 geared and starting out in t2s, when 10k gs was t2 geared and enough to get into any party.
This kind of elitist thinking that everyone would die without CWs owning paingiver is kinda laughable. CWs should control, they need those nerfs reversed so they can do that. But their damage needs to go. Everything they can't control needs to be tanked and/or off tanked. toughs and elites are supposed to have hp pools deep enough that they need to be burned down with single target damage focused classes.
nerfing cw and gwf dps, if done correctly (since they've fixed most of the places you can toss things off ledges) will make dungeons take longer, and make every other class more viable. that's it.
Does'nt matter if CWs DPS is lowered, does'nt matter if deep gash is fixed, does'nt matter wether if other classes DPS is increased on par with CWs/GWFs... that will make the dungeons even more easy than they're now... and no, i obviously don't expect devs to rework dungs, i'm more thinking on new content, i've said it countless times, this is a clear case of KISS (keep it simple, stupid!) between some of the fixing i suggested, the easier ones are the simple tweak on powers, and Devs are doing that, but that's only patchwork, does'nt solve the main issue, people will always look for the faster and most efficient way to rolfstomp through dungeons, is the nature of games, always will be FoTM classes, problem with this game is the whole dessign of dung runs, without need of class interaction, just dps.
THERE ARE NO ROLES in this roleplaying game! Just a dps race (im talking about high end gamers, in fact i really feel that the game is neat for low level play and fresh 60s) but as getting from wow this game is nice! to damm, i just beat the game i only want 10 min run farming to avoid the boredom of killing the same stuff over and over... takes a couple weeks, the game needs a new dessign on endgame dungs, on new content.
Some ideas for creative dungeon dessign from a DM with 30years of expertise dealing with power players:
Divide and be victorious: during the run some of the floor crumbles splitting group in 2 at random (2/3) both teams now should go by their dungeon's side since they reencounter at the boss, both dungeon paths should have adjusted difficulty, but as the split is at random, can be really challenging. Boss fights can do that too, a boss that creates a barrier separating teammates has always been a good resource for DMs.
No magic, no dice!:
Zones of dead magic are always great to put power players on a dire situation, as they are fairly common in the realms (and icewindale lore friendly) those can be used to put even the more powerful parties in trouble, just make it in a way where magic users are not totally useless, be it either by giving them spots where they can fight outside the range, or by allowing them to use enviroment to fight without magic.
i will place some more ideas after 2nd time of the soccer game.
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
Nope. Everyone asking for CW AOE DPS nerfs is also asking for the reversal of AOE CC/action point gain nerfs, so that CWs can control everything, like they used to in beta, before they realized they had AOE dps spells and CC became an afterthought.
Well in the perspective of returning the actual control powers to the CW, that would assist the matter a little.
Because what caused CWs to turn to the AoE side was indeed the nerfs to control powers. Back then you really could use control powers and it was a viable path.
When the mobs immune to control powers started showing up, AND they nerfed how you could use them. The Wizards turned to AoE powers so they could control the dungeon again.
Basically... like the AoE nerf being proposed... it was a bad idea.
This kind of elitist thinking that everyone would die without CWs owning paingiver is kinda laughable.
Well... why not try the dungeons with an all melee party and see how that works out for you.... its not going to. They're not designed for that. Worse... how do you think that's going to affect those 8600gs players coming up the pipes...
Oh yeah... I'm such an elitist with my whopping 12k gear score. With no perfects or anything to speak of, not even a Vorpal to my name...
I AM however a long time DM and D&D player... I know how this system works, AND how the classes fit in their roles and designing encounters for it. I used to have to do it.
This is not a good idea... its going to screw everyone because of how the dungeons are designed.
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inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2014
Basically everything you just said is wrong so i'm not sure how to even reply.
CWs went aoe purely for the HV bug, that was the only reason, it had nothing to do with any control nerfs. After the months it took to fix the bug, the aoe dps playstyle was the norm, and along with several massive single target TR nerfs, realized they could do aoe dps and top paingiver. It had nothing to do with adding CC immune mobs, those have always been there. The biggest nerf to CW CC is not nerf to cc powers (of which theres been very few, and mostly implementing target caps not actual nerfs to control) but the nerfs to AP gain.
about all melee parties. I do, and did before when CWs didn't have AOE dps. It works fine thanks.
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
Basically everything you just said is wrong so i'm not sure how to even reply.
CWs went aoe purely for the HV bug, that was the only reason, it had nothing to do with any control nerfs. After the months it took to fix the bug, the aoe dps playstyle was the norm, and along with several massive single target TR nerfs, realized they could do aoe dps and top paingiver. It had nothing to do with adding CC immune mobs, those have always been there. The biggest nerf to CW CC is not nerf to cc powers (of which theres been very few, and mostly implementing target caps not actual nerfs to control) but the nerfs to AP gain.
about all melee parties. I do, and did before when CWs didn't have AOE dps. It works fine thanks.
Well... CWs have also always had DPS, its always been in the powers. Have you ever looked at the Renegade path. Heck even the Thaum path too. That never changed from Beta.
And I can't find very many CWs that even knew about the HV bug these days.
I have done those dungeons with attempts at control powers... guess what, doesn't work so good anymore. Too many non controllable mobs or they're much briefer in duration. You also cannot constantly Singularity anymore. You can't build up the points fast enough nor matter how much recovery you have. I know of the people in higher level dungeons who have told me you can no longer push the mobs off the edges when you used to be able to.
And there's no HV bug now.
SO... why is it suddenly and mysteriously different? With no bug? And why aren't they going back to that old control style?
I already know you can't answer that question. Because controlling mobs in many of these dungeons is not possible these days the way it used to be.
Sorry to tell you that.
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inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2014
it's like you don't even read?
not going to bother replying to you since you don't bother to read. Again you're wrong.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
SO... why is it suddenly and mysteriously different? With no bug? And why aren't they going back to that old control style?
I already know you can't answer that question. Because controlling mobs in many of these dungeons is not possible these days the way it used to be.
Sorry to tell you that.
inthefade is pretty much right.
Lemme clarify:
- AP gain from shield pop nerfed - no more singbotting with this. Shield went extinct for all experienced players
- AP gain from EF on Mastery nerfed - no more singbotting with it. EF on Tab went extinct
Even during the EF/Mastery period, many people (such as myself for example) chose AoE DPS/debuff playstyle.
So I hope now you understand why you're wrong. AP gain was nerfed to oblivion, you cannot play singbot.
Not to mention:
- you cannot use shieldpop/repel in CN anymore, you need to burn all down
People don't invite clerics because mobs don't hit hard enough, it's either a one shot red aoe (which should exist in game because it's fun) or "i'm standing here waiting to be killed, please take your time to cast your aoe spell, and don't worry if i'm walking to you". What I mean is that since there is no good SUSTAINED damage (well, not enough), you don't really need a cleric to heal the damage 3-4 archers the devs added in a boss fight or the 7-8 minions running to you, and you don't need a tank to tank it either. Too weak, doesn't deal enough damage. Since tanks are all about taking damage, and since clerics are all about mitigation, buffs and heals over time, dots & sustained damage have to be strong to make tanks and clerics required again, even with 1-2k lifesteal wizards, gwfs and rogues around. When my wizard uses the shard, it's an average 40-60k heal. Who needs a cleric with that when you're safe when you're not standing in overlapped layers or red?
I'm not sure TRs are in the same boat. There are just too many people playing rogues in this game. Everyone wants to be the hero delivering the killing blow, and while having one TR in a party is fine and makes the run fun/smoother, stacking them is like stacking clerics: it doesn't mean the class is bad, it's just stupid because you don't need 3 strikers or 3 healers/buffers at the same time for obvious reasons. You also need some tanking and control. I'm not denying the fact that GWFs do too much damage for a tanky class (mostly because of the deep gash bug) and that CWs do way too much aoe damage for a control class, but that's another issue.
The real issue? It's like every single other MMO out there: not enough pure support role players (read: tanks and healers), and way too many people willing to be the hero, which means the guy delivering the killing blow, and in this game, it's the Rogue.
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tripsofthrymrMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,624Community Moderator
It's like every single other MMO out there: not enough pure support role players (read: tanks and healers), and way too many dps/strikers.
I actually enjoy the support classes. My first two characters were DC and GF. My HR is a nature build. None of them are very relevant, for exactly the reasons that you list.
I have a CW now that I enjoy playing, so not complaining that "my" class is not relevant. I just wish that the other characters were also more useful, so that I could vary my play by taking different ones out for a spin, to a variety of content, from time-to-time (gets old the DC just doing VT or ToS, and the GF only being asked to kite FH).
I actually enjoy the support classes. My first two characters were DC and GF. My HR is a nature build. None of them are very relevant, for exactly the reasons that you list.
I have a CW now that I enjoy playing, so not complaining that "my" class is not relevant. I just wish that the other characters were also more useful, so that I could vary my play by taking different ones out for a spin, to a variety of content, from time-to-time (gets old the DC just doing VT or ToS, and the GF only being asked to kite FH).
Actually i'm going to tell you a little secret: cleric makes the game a bit broken at the moment if played well. You can almost multiply the damage your team does by 3 if you're using the right build. It's almost as bad as thaumaturge CWs stacking debuffs to insane levels and standing in red because YOLO, i debuffed mobs so hard a 3-6k dmg per mob spell suddenly does 80k crit per mob damage (for real, i've seen it happening quite often with shard), while the GWF is of course stacking student of the sword + the at will aoe debuff spell, etc.
That's actually why tanks, healers, and maybe strikers, are devalued. The big mobs immune to control (driders, maws, magma brutes, lavamasters, even bosses bosses) can be debuffed so such absurd levels even moderate dps aoe spells will do huge crit damage on it. Thus, the boss/big guy dies before being dangerous. And before you think you may need a striker to kill it, because with a 10x damage multiplier on it any mob look stupid and insignificant, including and especially a boss.
I made a thread about this a few weeks ago. Feel free to bump it with your own thoughts, it can't hurt!
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2014
Actually, MMO-wise...
- CW is filling the ranged magic DPS. This role is usually represented by excelling at AoE damage, having decent (but not awesome) CC and single target, and close to no support. I'd say CW functions pretty **** good in this role. Even the choices made by the devs in latest gear sets show a pure DPS focus.
- GWF is filling melee AoE DPS role. Strong damage, resilient, decent (but not awesome) CC and single target, close to no support. Again, PvE GWF seems to do a great job at this. They go in, hit stuff, and numbers fly - awesome. They get hit, go in an invincible rage and emerge victorious. Pretty cool.
OK. Now that we talked about the proper representations of MMO roles, let's see what's left.
- DC should be filling healer class. Pro heals - not represented properly, HoTs yes, burst heals no. Good support - check. Decent survivability - check.
- TR should be filling rogue single target melee striker archetype. Stealth - check. Pro single target damage - errrrrm (PvP complaints made sure TR was repeatedly nerfed from its role and pushed to perma). Low utility. Basically, TRs should be our boss killers, hitting for HUGE numbers. Overall damage should be TOP of charts for single target centric encounters, lower for AoE centric encounters.
- HR - physical ranged DPS. I'm not even gonna go in detail with poor HR, but they should be hanging up to in damage with CWs, GWFs and TRs.
- GF should be filling tank class. Most survivable... in doubt. GWF might be close with sent spec and deal almost as much damage as the Destroyer. Pro threat generation - not working. Any geared CW will pull threat on shard/OF crits etc.
Conclusion:
Due to very bad dungeon design (lots of CCable ads) and questionable class design choices, a few classes are unable to fulfill their roles as required, bringing close to no utility to a party. Healers that cannot heal, tanks that cannot tank, strikers that cannot strike.
Fixing the classes at this point would be futile without complete rework of the dungeons. Because buffing the TR to properly deal damage will result for example in 10 secs draco fights. Making GF able to properly control aggro and tank would result in even more CW DPS output and QQ, since they could cast uninterrupted on a pack of aggroed mobs, no need for dodges. Making DCs heal properly would result in even more walk in the park dungeons, if that's even possible.
Suggestion:
Create a Hardcore dungeon difficulty from scratch. Balance damage and utility so ALL classes are desired. Actually - make sure that there are encounters requiring Tank/Healer/DPS, so people will NEED to have a GF and DC. Magic immune mobs (how many times I said this, sigh). Bosses that enrage, make TR needed to deal fast spiky damage.
Can you nerf 2 classes, and bandaid this illness that's PvE in Neverwinter. YES.
Is it a long time solution? NO.
Proper solution is REWORK this. Although after the Tenacity fiasco (I used to post in favor of Resilience months ago), I no longer have faith Cryptic has the resources needed for such an enterprise.
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inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2014
Simpler solution that Cryptic could actually implement:
Remove -Resistance (arp) from CON on GWF, give it to TRs based on Strength Stat. double the effectiveness of stat based arp from 1% per point over 10 to 2%.
increase mob resistance, 20% on minions up to 50% on bosses.
Now all CWs and GWFs have to stack darks in enchant slots, have a hard time hitting new arp cap in pve meaning a dmg reduction, and get only the stats given from gear for the rest of their offense (power, crit, etc) further reducing damage.
Not elegant, not perfect, simple as f#%k though to implement and a step in the right direction.
Wouldn't a better idea be to reverse some of the nerfs that they have done? TR need the bleed back, they should be the highest single target dps in the game, CW do to much damage for the control they have, take some of the damage away but GIVE them more control dont just nerf them completely. that right there would help the classes immensely
I find hard to believe some of the answers i read from experienced people in this topic...
To persephone, there is not a single CW in this game who can take agro off me, if a mob or a boss is hitting me he will hit me for the 2 tenths of a second it will survive (that's why GFs are mostly not wanted, not the agro management), in 3-4 room pulls maybe, and just maybe one or 2 random mobs can go amok, but does'nt change the outcome.
Diogenes is right (as always) a buff/debuff DC speed's up party, and if you add a KC set GF its the fastest setup in the game, 1-2 HV CW, 1-2 GWF HP set DC and KC set GF can out run any other party composition in any content, even 2-3 CWs 2-3 GWFs 16k+ parties
If Devs nerf CWs dps and fix Deep gash (all the other stuff in GWFs they deserve for the pain they've gone through since open beta to mod 2) without buffing other class DPS, dungeons will be a nightmare for pugs, people dont remember the countless "dungeons are too haaarrrddddd" topics (even PK was too hard for some people, i remember wiping several times in boss and the jump into the fence stupidity) resulting in 80% of the dungeons nerfed to futility, mostly the t2 ones, karrundax is a joke since flamespikes dont prone you, PK is so easy people run it 6 times for delve in legit runs, ToS same, but 4 times (and Devs please, there is another glitch going on there, wich is stupid on a 15 min legit run) FH is just go kite the mobs while we 4 vs 1 himmir and takes 3-4 minutes even for new 60s, eDV its challenging and fun, right now, hardest boss fight in the game, longest dungeon run... for the prize of an internet cookie! MC & VT are balanced in difficulty (MC will create now a bunch of waaaambulance threads about "its impossibrrruuuuu" because the MoC and Slam fix) and both dungeon show how Devs learn and try to improve gameplay, but the dessign of the game is what it is. And more important, it WONT FIX class stacking, if mobs are harder to kill people will bring even MORE CWs cuz their AP generation has been fixed (i like that more than nerf, infinite singularity was'nt WaI) and more GWFs.
If the nerf of CWs DPS and GWFs deep gash come with a DPS increase for other classes, we will have a phase of adaptation of the player base, but might work as a durable "fix" to the class balance, but i'm afraid it will cause the inverse effect, make the "buff/debuff festival" the only setup on endgame, leaving TRs and HRs out of parties for a long time, but worse than that, making only 1 choice on build, itemization and gameplay valid for the classes on that party setup and that's not a healthy enviroment.
Still probably is the less evil of the solutions short term.
People tends to forget how the metagame has changed since open beta, "2CWs 2DCs TR" was the only setup for draco till they nerfed Astral shield stacking, 3xCW DC TR after that, (im gonna ignore the brief GF's bugs domination oneshotting bosses and stacking ITF) in the majority of player base TRs were running amok being probably 40% of the players and just obliterating PvP, nerf after nerf TRs are now unwanted in endgame dungs, but not because they're not the single target best dps class, its because GWFs single target dps is almost as good while being infinitely better in every other aspect, but they stil are in the good side of the PvP ladder. Give back some of the pre nerfs DPS to rogues and fix deep gash and TRs will be fine.
DCs are in a weird spot, for 95% of the player base, they're ok, every non elite party needs healz. For the 5%... well they're more useful as a debuff bots that spam astral shield than anything else, and most high end parties dont need either, and in PvP they are receiving a sledge hammer now on how the class was played, and i have no idea on how to fix that, really i dunno how to fix DCs situation or if its really broken itself, probably removing righterousness now that healing depression comes will save the day in PvP, but in PvE high endgame the only valid setup will be buffbot with astral shield, kinda boring.
HRs will dominate for a while after CWs nerf, let them learn a little how to play, because most HR players are bad team players, just fix their agro generation, as i said i cant lose agro to any CW out there, i do lose agro to some HR powers.
GFs fixes i've already wrote tons of times, i dont want to become a GWF with a shield, it will be the reverse situation, i just want the class to be smoother/faster in animations, Villian's menace working closer to unstoppable with a damage reduction added to the buff, and into the fray extended duration, just by that class would be perfect.
I've alwais said this, and still think it, GF is probably the best dessigned class since the beggining, the most balanced, always good but not great in PvE and PvP, didnt need big nerfs or big buffs (stalwart bulwark aside, until now), i have the feel it was the first class dessigned, if they nerf CWs dps output GFs will be wanted again in the 95% of the -15k GS players, and im fine with that.
So, in summary... nerfing/buffing is always lazy dessign, and those devs are not lazy, they make efforts in dessigning new dungeons and improve the gameplay, but is also the easiest and most cost effective way to balance the existing gameplay, and right now, CWs/GWFs are just too good, they know it, everybody knows it, so it needs some fixing, i just despise that fixing PvE affects PvP and viceversa, always a bad feeling and griefing there, PvP and PvE should be separated, but i also have the feeling its some kind of code wall here, might not be implementable in this game without major overhaul of the coding, CWs already having a big hit with the new PvP changes, (that's why persephone, usually a civil poster, is so mad and dont want more nerfing) i just hope deep gash gets nerfed ASAP and CWs recover some of the AP generation to make for the loss of burst damage.
Meh.
Mehhhh.
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
I find hard to believe some of the answers i read from experienced people in this topic...
So, in summary... nerfing/buffing is always lazy dessign, and those devs are not lazy, they make efforts in dessigning new dungeons and improve the gameplay, but is also the easiest and most cost effective way to balance the existing gameplay, and right now, CWs/GWFs are just too good, they know it, everybody knows it, so it needs some fixing, i just despise that fixing PvE affects PvP and viceversa, always a bad feeling and griefing there, PvP and PvE should be separated, but i also have the feeling its some kind of code wall here, might not be implementable in this game without major overhaul of the coding, CWs already having a big hit with the new PvP changes, (that's why persephone, usually a civil poster, is so mad and dont want more nerfing) i just hope deep gash gets nerfed ASAP and CWs recover some of the AP generation to make for the loss of burst damage.
Meh.
Mehhhh.
No it wont...
In fact you'll be in the same shoes you are in now. It won't change a thing. All it really will have done is made the dungeons harder for everyone. And they'll be requiring 3-4 CW parties. Worse the 8600 gs players will now have to play without it entirely.
Why? Because you're not making the distinction between single target damage and AoE damage. With no crowd control the other classes are not designed to deal with it. And when they drop, so does the GF. With the way these dungeons are designed, you're going to be overwhelmed with nothing but single target damagers and they're not going to be able to kill fast enough. Those classes are not designed to take a pounding.
The GF can... but they can't.
That's where the flaw in your thinking is, and where Persephony is correct.
im pretty sure DC is not very important if all party members have good life steal and self heal, but with debuffing/buffing DC the dungeon goes WAY faster.
Dude you're wrong, we dealt with T2 dungs & CN before those were nerfed and before CWs went DPS path, GWFs DPS was nonexistant and we did well, also as i said, people will just go debuff mode and it will be the same it is now for high end parties, so content will still be pointless, if you buff other classes DPS without debuffing CWs and GWFs you are fixing nothing, nobody will change anything, people will continue bringing the same setups because already works, why changing it???
Oh... other input, in legit i take non CW runs to anywhere, and you know?? we succeed!! weird huh?
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
- AP gain from shield pop nerfed - no more singbotting with this. Shield went extinct for all experienced players
- AP gain from EF on Mastery nerfed - no more singbotting with it. EF on Tab went extinct
Even during the EF/Mastery period, many people (such as myself for example) chose AoE DPS/debuff playstyle.
So I hope now you understand why you're wrong. AP gain was nerfed to oblivion, you cannot play singbot.
Not to mention:
- you cannot use shieldpop/repel in CN anymore, you need to burn all down
That's about it.
Honorable mention: SotEA was not able to crit.
Well actually we were on the same page and saying the same things,
I just added that now there's more mobs that you can't use crowd control on. But that definitely explains why CWs no longer go the crowd control path. I experienced it myself when trying the old way. So there's basically no crowd control anymore, when it used to be the most viable option for the CWs over and above the AoE role.
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
- CW is filling the ranged magic DPS. This role is usually represented by excelling at AoE damage, having decent (but not awesome) CC and single target, and close to no support. I'd say CW functions pretty **** good in this role. Even the choices made by the devs in latest gear sets show a pure DPS focus.
- GWF is filling melee AoE DPS role. Strong damage, resilient, decent (but not awesome) CC and single target, close to no support. Again, PvE GWF seems to do a great job at this. They go in, hit stuff, and numbers fly - awesome. They get hit, go in an invincible rage and emerge victorious. Pretty cool.
OK. Now that we talked about the proper representations of MMO roles, let's see what's left.
- DC should be filling healer class. Pro heals - not represented properly, HoTs yes, burst heals no. Good support - check. Decent survivability - check.
- TR should be filling rogue single target melee striker archetype. Stealth - check. Pro single target damage - errrrrm (PvP complaints made sure TR was repeatedly nerfed from its role and pushed to perma). Low utility. Basically, TRs should be our boss killers, hitting for HUGE numbers. Overall damage should be TOP of charts for single target centric encounters, lower for AoE centric encounters.
- HR - physical ranged DPS. I'm not even gonna go in detail with poor HR, but they should be hanging up to in damage with CWs, GWFs and TRs.
- GF should be filling tank class. Most survivable... in doubt. GWF might be close with sent spec and deal almost as much damage as the Destroyer. Pro threat generation - not working. Any geared CW will pull threat on shard/OF crits etc.
Conclusion:
Due to very bad dungeon design (lots of non CCable ads) and questionable class design choices, a few classes are unable to fulfill their roles as required, bringing close to no utility to a party. Healers that cannot heal, tanks that cannot tank, strikers that cannot strike.
Fixing the classes at this point would be futile without complete rework of the dungeons. Because buffing the TR to properly deal damage will result for example in 10 secs draco fights. Making GF able to properly control aggro and tank would result in even more CW DPS output and QQ, since they could cast uninterrupted on a pack of aggroed mobs, no need for dodges. Making DCs heal properly would result in even more walk in the park dungeons, if that's even possible.
Suggestion:
Create a Hardcore dungeon difficulty from scratch. Balance damage and utility so ALL classes are desired. Actually - make sure that there are encounters requiring Tank/Healer/DPS, so people will NEED to have a GF and DC. Magic immune mobs (how many times I said this, sigh). Bosses that enrage, make TR needed to deal fast spiky damage.
Can you nerf 2 classes, and bandaid this illness that's PvE in Neverwinter. YES.
Is it a long time solution? NO.
Proper solution is REWORK this. Although after the Tenacity fiasco (I used to post in favor of Resilience months ago), I no longer have faith Cryptic has the resources needed for such an enterprise.
That would be it in a nutshell,
And I did not realize rogues were also nerfed, and that's why there's a problem now.
Seems that every one of these nerfs has caused more problems than its solved and unbalanced the game even worse than before.
Nerfing even more will just cause more problems. In fact I think they need to go back on their previous changes and realize they made bad ones.
EDIT: One of the other dungeon balance issues is that those Adds have way more health than they should. Why does it take two CWs to properly do what one CW should be able to do with AoEs? Well that's because they overdid the health on the adds and trash mobs. The general encounter in a large crowd scenario is supposed to be lower health adds, with one strong mob. Instead all the adds have the health of the large strong mob, making multiple nukes necessary when in reality the D&D game does not. Requiring of course, more Wizards to do what should be the job of one Wizard and his fireballs.
The way other classes take rogue class now makes me feel...offended... really. It's either "wtf is wrong with you doood, I am a 12k gwf and can overdps you !!!" or "Yay, a rogue!^^ Can we have a fast run to the boss now? No? You're pure dps??? Fock off!111"
Same with my Guardian Fighter. GWFs just take my "bread" and make me useless for almost everything.
- CWs were, and are OP, in PvE, as much as they are underpowered in PvP. They have the best cc and best AoE DPS, now on par with GWFs. If deep gash gets a nerf, they will be n°1 AoE DPS uncontested, again
- GWFs used to suck and had no place in PvE. Was not really a matter of dungeon design. Their AoE DPS sucked compared to CWs. Now they have strong AoE DPS, so they are the second choice after the CWs have been taken. To tank the boss, also.
- DCs were a must, now many players are overgeared for most dungeons, and also you don't need heals when 3 CWs can keep the mobs cced the Whole time and, with the help of 2 GWFs, nuke them down fast. Still, they are needed and required in most groups by "normal" players or for hard dungeons/ bosses.
- GFs are better tanks than GWFs. And will be even more with module 3. Problem is, here, the dungeon design makes almost no use of tanks. So, i'd say it's a dungeon design problem here. FH, for example, makes good use of GFs. We just need more cc resistant mobs, hitting hard and hard to take down. This way a tank who can kite the crowd and keep aggro, while tanking with his shield, would have a role.
- TRs and HRs are meant to be interchangeable for single target DPS. One is melee, the other is ranged. Can't say much about them. May be more dungeons with less trash and more mini-bosses to take down could put their single target damage at good use. Or more boss fights per dungeon.
I think the roles should be
CW-->primary cc, second AoE damage dealer, OR put a huge number of cc resistant, heavy hitting mobs in dungeons.
GWF--> primary AoE DPS, second cc
DC--->healer
GF--->tank, aggro, kite mobs that are cc resistant, hard to take down and hit very hard
TRs-HRs---> heaviest single target DPS for mini-bosses, bosses, exc...
Class balance and dungeon design, imho, should go in that direction.
GF--->tank, aggro, kite mobs that are cc resistant, hard to take down and hit very hard
God no! can we please end the "kiting" and go to hell with it? if you want to kite take a surf and a parachute and practice kite surf, you either tank or kill stuff, as a Dwarf i refuse to continue kiting stuff, i barely agree to do it in FH just because most pugs are not good enough to kill everything fast enough, but that's bad dessign... SAY NO TO KITING!!!
0
pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2014
There's no need to nerf CW DPS Other classes need to be pulled up at the same levels.
All damage dealing classes should compete for top spot.
CW is the Mage class. It is the Magic Damage Dealing Class. Is pretty simple. Until we have something even more DPS-focused, such as a warlock or a pure DPS wizards, this is what we have. They should by all means be able to to top damage dealt (if built for this), however...
HRs, TRs and GWFs built for DPS should also be able to do the same.
Dungeon should NOT be "errm, trash pack here AoE, trash pack there AoE" etc. Packs should have uberelites in them, that require tanking/melee DPS/priority targeting, while the other smaller trash can be CCed, and later AoEed, and other such mechanics.
What we have now is a very, very lazy design that requirs no strategy and no tactics but AoE.
Basically, stop blaming the classes first, or even mechanics, when the dungeon design is the root of all evil.
And stop treating the Wizard like some dumb "I stun you!" class, for as long as we don't have other dedicated magic damage dealer.
I'm not sure how to put this in simpler words. Every MMO/RPG veteran of many years would understand me.
Oh... other input, in legit i take non CW runs to anywhere, and you know?? we succeed!! weird huh?
This, I believe, will melt a lot of player's brains.
On the weekend my guild (2 GWFs, DC and me as a GF) wanted to run SP. We asked for a CW via /LFG. We got one and he immediately had reservations about the group composition and its potential for success. He was concerned by there only being 1 CW and by the presence of my GF.
We were able to start and complete two SP runs inside the dungeon delve event, Yes, it wasn't optimal because we couldn't do it in 20 minutes, but point is we done it without 2/3 CWs.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
My solution for the dc would make the healing potions , artifacts and mimimi instead of renewing " x " real hp , had changed her to a temporary hp that was slowly drained value. There regen and life steal , but at some point, only the dc could save someone .
tell by the way , would make the defender more important.
Now let the fallacies
Gf vs gwf :
The gwf not have the capacity to defend the party (previously accepted ) . Therefore , it does not take the place of defender ( gf ) . Therefore , there is no " gwf vs gf " .
Even as the dps gwf doing damage is a bug . The cancellation was a bug , ap generators were bugs , the bleed is a bug . Gwf was never officially viable . And by the way , never will.
Your real problem : the best the defender has to offer is to pull adds that he could not handle / control ... otherwise control the cw is not mitigated against multiple targets (i think) but the combat advantage against you can be the most reduced.
This is an internal defect of fighters , offensive and defensive . Our mechanics are reversed ... yes, the pvp and pve could be much more balanced .
rogue Fallacy : What difference does it make if there are partys with multiple gwf / cw with tons of aoe if a rogue , relying only on their own abilities , can perform various dungeons alone?
Real problem of rogue :
1 - futility of their ability to disarm traps. I hate arguments like " the problem of the class is designe of dungeons " but in this case it is a fact . increase rogue damage / aoe give only do such as the optional gwf is today. is necessary for its utilitarian function becomes important.
Well, it's really, really hard to be PvE TR, especially melee one.
First: Dungeon design is terrible from TR point of view!
- Loads of high-HP trash mobs on the way to boss. So it's natural that AoE dps and CC classes are wanted.
- Constant spawning of trash during the boss fight. So again, AoE is king even in boss fights.
- Mobs spamming AoE. Sometimes 85% of the central fight area is covered in red. CW/HR can CC/nuke from distance, DC can heal from distance, GWF/GF can facetank large part of AoE. Melee TR? Must stay close but can't facetank AoE and must dodge out of red. Sometimes I can't land a full duelist furry for half a minute because constant need of dodging.
- AoE does more damage than direct boss strike! 95% of my TRs deaths is not that I dpsed to much and boss aggroed to me, not that I failed rotation. It's one-shooting AoE rings dealing >20K damage. And yeah, best thing is to dodge one AoE ring just to land in another one or no not-red area is reachable by my dodge! Bam, one-shot!
- Again: AoE rings around bosses. So yeah, even if i'm in stealth i have to stop the rotation and dodge. And some bosses love to spam AoE rings around themselves.
- Traps. There are nearly no traps in dungeons. If they are present, they do not pose large threat. And a rogue can't disarm them in combat. So, pretty much his utility role is useless.
Second: Class roles and mechanics balances are terrible! -> Tank/DPS/Healer/CC role do not work at all
- If GWF makes nearly the same damge on single target but can AoE, has higher damage resistance from armor and has Unstoppable mechanics, why take TR?
- CW can be both controller and dps and in AoE version!
- If I'm not one-shooted by AoE and can go into stealth I can pop a potion and with moderate life steal I can rebuild full health really fast. So DC are nice to have, but not necessary. That's really bad.
- Since CW is so strong, GF is not required for tanking. And is instead asked for kitting! Kitting tank!
Third: PvP balance influencing PvE and vice versa.
- TRs were in the beginning insanely strong in PvP (single target damage specialists + stealth) -> nerf after nerf (next one incoming today, LOL!) -> become weak and unwanted in PvE
- GWFs weak in PvE -> buff after buff -> insanely strong in PvP, for PvP Iron Vanguard Sentinel the most OP class I have ever seen in any MMORPG
Solutions:
- Design future dungeons that they require more balanced party setup. Dead magic zones, 4-5 stronged trash mobs instead of 20, mobs with high resistance to specific type of damage (fire/ice/melee).
- Bosses one-shooting everyone but specialized tanks, less trash mobs spawned during boss fights -> give GF place for their primary role
- Make self-healing in dungeons harder, introduce second healer class -> make healers more desired!
- Makes certain class powers and skills work differently in PvP, so you no PvP<->PvE class balance issues
- Give DC ability to turn undead creatures!
- Give TR ability to disarm traps in combat/place his own ones. Make more objects/secrets in the dungeons requiring class skills (illusions which DC/CW can deal with, locked doors to optional boss which TR can open, walls GWF/GF can bash, optional bosses/shortcuts Ranger can "track", etc.)
Ratharel - stealthy backstabber from the Myth Drannor
- It is becoming clearer and clearer that balancing PvP and PvE at the same time is anywhere between "extremely hard" and "downright imposslbe". Considering the devs are still struggling with basic concepts such as "T1 isn't supossed to be better than T2", I'd say they do not stand a chance at succeeding.
- About tanking, aggro, etc, I think you are failing to put the issue clear when we say that tanks are hardly needed. Put in very simple words:
I CAN hold aggro.
I CAN take a good beating, unless the enemy starts chaining CCs that for some reason I can not block and still hit me if I move outside of the red circle. (Charti I am looking at you!).
So, that seems to mean I CAN tank. But guess what?
> 95% of mob attacks fall under one of these categories:
- Super-slow attacks that you can move out the way, and I merely block for the AP gain, but could just avoid, as could any other class in melee.
- AoE attacks that must be avoided by each person, and thus, my ability to tank them is irrelevant to team survival.
- Hits that are way too low to notice, and anyone can take without a problem.
Therefore, there is very, very little unavoidable damage for me to take instead of my mates. Wether I tank or not is irrelevant, and my main role is to debuff the enemy, and having it as nicely cluttered as possible, which CWs do better anyways.
Therefore, even if I tank, I either CAN'T or DO NOT NEED TO defend my team mates. Thus invalidating my position as a tank, and turning me into a debuff bot.
They did try to use new dungeons design: malabog. Unfortunately, for high-end players, it makes little to no difference, the scheme is the same, debuff, debuff, woohoo, 80k shard/mob hit, woohoo, 120k non crit sudden storm, and so on. If they want to make everyone happy the devs will have to introduce something like a diminishing returns on debuff stacking. There's no way around it. This or make some content so hard it locks 90% of the playerbase out of it, and this isn't going to happen.
What people don't get is that CWs don't have to be nuked. The current BASE damage on most spell is fine, balanced, etc. The issue is high vizier + thaumaturge debuffs + greater plabuefire/terror/whatever (provided the tank or the cleric don't use that already, which is obviously more optimal to faceroll content even faster).
A few days ago I had a GWF buddy reporting 200k+ encounters and 130k non crit "IBS" (not sure about what it is, I don't play the class, all he told me is that it was per mob) when I was playing my cleric with high prophet, hallowed ground, linked spirit, divine glow. Of course in "normal" parties not using cookie cutter builds, the game is still challenging, there are wipes and leavers, so my suggestion is to work on what makes the game a faceroll for the high end parties without hurting the whole playerbase. That's extremely simple to understand and cannot hurt the casuals complaining about pirate king or cloak tower being too hard. There's some mathematical elegance in that solution and I really hope the devs are considering to do something. Design changes won't do much if they don't do that change.
Then we may see more renegade/Shadow weaver wizard and parties inviting tanks and clerics because they kinda need someone to deal with the damage NPCs do since the metagame should be less about pulling as much as you can until your soulforge procs before casting massive aoe debuffs and wiping the floor with aoes with no target caps, healing yourself for 50 to 100k with lifesteal while you're slauthering half of the dungeon in one pull.
I think the roles should be
CW-->primary cc, second AoE damage dealer, OR put a huge number of cc resistant, heavy hitting mobs in dungeons.
GWF--> primary AoE DPS, second cc
DC--->healer
GF--->tank, aggro, kite mobs that are cc resistant, hard to take down and hit very hard
TRs-HRs---> heaviest single target DPS for mini-bosses, bosses, exc...
Class balance and dungeon design, imho, should go in that direction.
This is pretty much right, although I would add that that the DC should be a healer / buffer / debuffer / moderate DPS (more or less what they can be now anyway), and that having the GF as designated 'kiter' just seems wrong. Having the 'tank' class running round in circles with all the adds staggering after him seems utterly incongruous....
Right now
GWF >> GF, TR
and
CW >>> GF, TR, HR.
which is absurd. There is very little reason after you get to a moderate GS to have any other class other than a CW (*), which is simply causing frustration amongst the rest of the player base. Sure GWFs might currently have close to CW's damage now, but CWs bring a hell of a lot more than pure damage to party.
(*) Yeah there is a niche role in an ideal setup for some correctly equipped classes to act as CW-buffers, but it is much easier and almost as fast just to stack another CW. And what about the HR and TR...
- CWs were, and are OP, in PvE, as much as they are underpowered in PvP. They have the best cc and best AoE DPS, now on par with GWFs. If deep gash gets a nerf, they will be n°1 AoE DPS uncontested, again
- GWFs used to suck and had no place in PvE. Was not really a matter of dungeon design. Their AoE DPS sucked compared to CWs. Now they have strong AoE DPS, so they are the second choice after the CWs have been taken. To tank the boss, also.
- DCs were a must, now many players are overgeared for most dungeons, and also you don't need heals when 3 CWs can keep the mobs cced the Whole time and, with the help of 2 GWFs, nuke them down fast. Still, they are needed and required in most groups by "normal" players or for hard dungeons/ bosses.
- GFs are better tanks than GWFs. And will be even more with module 3. Problem is, here, the dungeon design makes almost no use of tanks. So, i'd say it's a dungeon design problem here. FH, for example, makes good use of GFs. We just need more cc resistant mobs, hitting hard and hard to take down. This way a tank who can kite the crowd and keep aggro, while tanking with his shield, would have a role.
- TRs and HRs are meant to be interchangeable for single target DPS. One is melee, the other is ranged. Can't say much about them. May be more dungeons with less trash and more mini-bosses to take down could put their single target damage at good use. Or more boss fights per dungeon.
The gwf not have the capacity to defend the party (previously accepted ) . Therefore , it does not take the place of defender ( gf ) . Therefore , there is no " gwf vs gf " .
I shall bear that in mind the next time I am gathering and facetanking an entire room in VT or ToS on my GWF. It's all an illusion, and isn't really happening.
Comments
Nope. Everyone asking for CW AOE DPS nerfs is also asking for the reversal of AOE CC/action point gain nerfs, so that CWs can control everything, like they used to in beta, before they realized they had AOE dps spells and CC became an afterthought.
Guess what, before HV bug the following spells were never used by CWs, when the HV nerf became widely known all CWs had to respec to unlock these powers, because they never used them: Oppressive Force, Shard of the Endless Avalanche, Sudden Storm*. (not HV related but this power wasn't used until cw's realized they could deal aoe dmg, which was after the HV bug)
And we cleared all the dungeons fine (and they were much harder back then), before artifacts, before boons, before companion bonuses, before 13k+ gs. when 8k gs was t1 geared and starting out in t2s, when 10k gs was t2 geared and enough to get into any party.
This kind of elitist thinking that everyone would die without CWs owning paingiver is kinda laughable. CWs should control, they need those nerfs reversed so they can do that. But their damage needs to go. Everything they can't control needs to be tanked and/or off tanked. toughs and elites are supposed to have hp pools deep enough that they need to be burned down with single target damage focused classes.
nerfing cw and gwf dps, if done correctly (since they've fixed most of the places you can toss things off ledges) will make dungeons take longer, and make every other class more viable. that's it.
THERE ARE NO ROLES in this roleplaying game! Just a dps race (im talking about high end gamers, in fact i really feel that the game is neat for low level play and fresh 60s) but as getting from wow this game is nice! to damm, i just beat the game i only want 10 min run farming to avoid the boredom of killing the same stuff over and over... takes a couple weeks, the game needs a new dessign on endgame dungs, on new content.
Some ideas for creative dungeon dessign from a DM with 30years of expertise dealing with power players:
Divide and be victorious: during the run some of the floor crumbles splitting group in 2 at random (2/3) both teams now should go by their dungeon's side since they reencounter at the boss, both dungeon paths should have adjusted difficulty, but as the split is at random, can be really challenging. Boss fights can do that too, a boss that creates a barrier separating teammates has always been a good resource for DMs.
No magic, no dice!:
Zones of dead magic are always great to put power players on a dire situation, as they are fairly common in the realms (and icewindale lore friendly) those can be used to put even the more powerful parties in trouble, just make it in a way where magic users are not totally useless, be it either by giving them spots where they can fight outside the range, or by allowing them to use enviroment to fight without magic.
i will place some more ideas after 2nd time of the soccer game.
Well in the perspective of returning the actual control powers to the CW, that would assist the matter a little.
Because what caused CWs to turn to the AoE side was indeed the nerfs to control powers. Back then you really could use control powers and it was a viable path.
When the mobs immune to control powers started showing up, AND they nerfed how you could use them. The Wizards turned to AoE powers so they could control the dungeon again.
Basically... like the AoE nerf being proposed... it was a bad idea.
Well... why not try the dungeons with an all melee party and see how that works out for you.... its not going to. They're not designed for that. Worse... how do you think that's going to affect those 8600gs players coming up the pipes...
Oh yeah... I'm such an elitist with my whopping 12k gear score. With no perfects or anything to speak of, not even a Vorpal to my name...
I AM however a long time DM and D&D player... I know how this system works, AND how the classes fit in their roles and designing encounters for it. I used to have to do it.
This is not a good idea... its going to screw everyone because of how the dungeons are designed.
CWs went aoe purely for the HV bug, that was the only reason, it had nothing to do with any control nerfs. After the months it took to fix the bug, the aoe dps playstyle was the norm, and along with several massive single target TR nerfs, realized they could do aoe dps and top paingiver. It had nothing to do with adding CC immune mobs, those have always been there. The biggest nerf to CW CC is not nerf to cc powers (of which theres been very few, and mostly implementing target caps not actual nerfs to control) but the nerfs to AP gain.
about all melee parties. I do, and did before when CWs didn't have AOE dps. It works fine thanks.
Well... CWs have also always had DPS, its always been in the powers. Have you ever looked at the Renegade path. Heck even the Thaum path too. That never changed from Beta.
And I can't find very many CWs that even knew about the HV bug these days.
I have done those dungeons with attempts at control powers... guess what, doesn't work so good anymore. Too many non controllable mobs or they're much briefer in duration. You also cannot constantly Singularity anymore. You can't build up the points fast enough nor matter how much recovery you have. I know of the people in higher level dungeons who have told me you can no longer push the mobs off the edges when you used to be able to.
And there's no HV bug now.
SO... why is it suddenly and mysteriously different? With no bug? And why aren't they going back to that old control style?
I already know you can't answer that question. Because controlling mobs in many of these dungeons is not possible these days the way it used to be.
Sorry to tell you that.
not going to bother replying to you since you don't bother to read. Again you're wrong.
inthefade is pretty much right.
Lemme clarify:
- AP gain from shield pop nerfed - no more singbotting with this. Shield went extinct for all experienced players
- AP gain from EF on Mastery nerfed - no more singbotting with it. EF on Tab went extinct
Even during the EF/Mastery period, many people (such as myself for example) chose AoE DPS/debuff playstyle.
So I hope now you understand why you're wrong. AP gain was nerfed to oblivion, you cannot play singbot.
Not to mention:
- you cannot use shieldpop/repel in CN anymore, you need to burn all down
That's about it.
Honorable mention: SotEA was not able to crit.
I'm not sure TRs are in the same boat. There are just too many people playing rogues in this game. Everyone wants to be the hero delivering the killing blow, and while having one TR in a party is fine and makes the run fun/smoother, stacking them is like stacking clerics: it doesn't mean the class is bad, it's just stupid because you don't need 3 strikers or 3 healers/buffers at the same time for obvious reasons. You also need some tanking and control. I'm not denying the fact that GWFs do too much damage for a tanky class (mostly because of the deep gash bug) and that CWs do way too much aoe damage for a control class, but that's another issue.
The real issue? It's like every single other MMO out there: not enough pure support role players (read: tanks and healers), and way too many people willing to be the hero, which means the guy delivering the killing blow, and in this game, it's the Rogue.
I actually enjoy the support classes. My first two characters were DC and GF. My HR is a nature build. None of them are very relevant, for exactly the reasons that you list.
I have a CW now that I enjoy playing, so not complaining that "my" class is not relevant. I just wish that the other characters were also more useful, so that I could vary my play by taking different ones out for a spin, to a variety of content, from time-to-time (gets old the DC just doing VT or ToS, and the GF only being asked to kite FH).
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
Actually i'm going to tell you a little secret: cleric makes the game a bit broken at the moment if played well. You can almost multiply the damage your team does by 3 if you're using the right build. It's almost as bad as thaumaturge CWs stacking debuffs to insane levels and standing in red because YOLO, i debuffed mobs so hard a 3-6k dmg per mob spell suddenly does 80k crit per mob damage (for real, i've seen it happening quite often with shard), while the GWF is of course stacking student of the sword + the at will aoe debuff spell, etc.
That's actually why tanks, healers, and maybe strikers, are devalued. The big mobs immune to control (driders, maws, magma brutes, lavamasters, even bosses bosses) can be debuffed so such absurd levels even moderate dps aoe spells will do huge crit damage on it. Thus, the boss/big guy dies before being dangerous. And before you think you may need a striker to kill it, because with a 10x damage multiplier on it any mob look stupid and insignificant, including and especially a boss.
I made a thread about this a few weeks ago. Feel free to bump it with your own thoughts, it can't hurt!
- CW is filling the ranged magic DPS. This role is usually represented by excelling at AoE damage, having decent (but not awesome) CC and single target, and close to no support. I'd say CW functions pretty **** good in this role. Even the choices made by the devs in latest gear sets show a pure DPS focus.
- GWF is filling melee AoE DPS role. Strong damage, resilient, decent (but not awesome) CC and single target, close to no support. Again, PvE GWF seems to do a great job at this. They go in, hit stuff, and numbers fly - awesome. They get hit, go in an invincible rage and emerge victorious. Pretty cool.
OK. Now that we talked about the proper representations of MMO roles, let's see what's left.
- DC should be filling healer class. Pro heals - not represented properly, HoTs yes, burst heals no. Good support - check. Decent survivability - check.
- TR should be filling rogue single target melee striker archetype. Stealth - check. Pro single target damage - errrrrm (PvP complaints made sure TR was repeatedly nerfed from its role and pushed to perma). Low utility. Basically, TRs should be our boss killers, hitting for HUGE numbers. Overall damage should be TOP of charts for single target centric encounters, lower for AoE centric encounters.
- HR - physical ranged DPS. I'm not even gonna go in detail with poor HR, but they should be hanging up to in damage with CWs, GWFs and TRs.
- GF should be filling tank class. Most survivable... in doubt. GWF might be close with sent spec and deal almost as much damage as the Destroyer. Pro threat generation - not working. Any geared CW will pull threat on shard/OF crits etc.
Conclusion:
Due to very bad dungeon design (lots of CCable ads) and questionable class design choices, a few classes are unable to fulfill their roles as required, bringing close to no utility to a party. Healers that cannot heal, tanks that cannot tank, strikers that cannot strike.
Fixing the classes at this point would be futile without complete rework of the dungeons. Because buffing the TR to properly deal damage will result for example in 10 secs draco fights. Making GF able to properly control aggro and tank would result in even more CW DPS output and QQ, since they could cast uninterrupted on a pack of aggroed mobs, no need for dodges. Making DCs heal properly would result in even more walk in the park dungeons, if that's even possible.
Suggestion:
Create a Hardcore dungeon difficulty from scratch. Balance damage and utility so ALL classes are desired. Actually - make sure that there are encounters requiring Tank/Healer/DPS, so people will NEED to have a GF and DC. Magic immune mobs (how many times I said this, sigh). Bosses that enrage, make TR needed to deal fast spiky damage.
Can you nerf 2 classes, and bandaid this illness that's PvE in Neverwinter. YES.
Is it a long time solution? NO.
Proper solution is REWORK this. Although after the Tenacity fiasco (I used to post in favor of Resilience months ago), I no longer have faith Cryptic has the resources needed for such an enterprise.
Remove -Resistance (arp) from CON on GWF, give it to TRs based on Strength Stat. double the effectiveness of stat based arp from 1% per point over 10 to 2%.
increase mob resistance, 20% on minions up to 50% on bosses.
Now all CWs and GWFs have to stack darks in enchant slots, have a hard time hitting new arp cap in pve meaning a dmg reduction, and get only the stats given from gear for the rest of their offense (power, crit, etc) further reducing damage.
Not elegant, not perfect, simple as f#%k though to implement and a step in the right direction.
To persephone, there is not a single CW in this game who can take agro off me, if a mob or a boss is hitting me he will hit me for the 2 tenths of a second it will survive (that's why GFs are mostly not wanted, not the agro management), in 3-4 room pulls maybe, and just maybe one or 2 random mobs can go amok, but does'nt change the outcome.
Diogenes is right (as always) a buff/debuff DC speed's up party, and if you add a KC set GF its the fastest setup in the game, 1-2 HV CW, 1-2 GWF HP set DC and KC set GF can out run any other party composition in any content, even 2-3 CWs 2-3 GWFs 16k+ parties
If Devs nerf CWs dps and fix Deep gash (all the other stuff in GWFs they deserve for the pain they've gone through since open beta to mod 2) without buffing other class DPS, dungeons will be a nightmare for pugs, people dont remember the countless "dungeons are too haaarrrddddd" topics (even PK was too hard for some people, i remember wiping several times in boss and the jump into the fence stupidity) resulting in 80% of the dungeons nerfed to futility, mostly the t2 ones, karrundax is a joke since flamespikes dont prone you, PK is so easy people run it 6 times for delve in legit runs, ToS same, but 4 times (and Devs please, there is another glitch going on there, wich is stupid on a 15 min legit run) FH is just go kite the mobs while we 4 vs 1 himmir and takes 3-4 minutes even for new 60s, eDV its challenging and fun, right now, hardest boss fight in the game, longest dungeon run... for the prize of an internet cookie! MC & VT are balanced in difficulty (MC will create now a bunch of waaaambulance threads about "its impossibrrruuuuu" because the MoC and Slam fix) and both dungeon show how Devs learn and try to improve gameplay, but the dessign of the game is what it is. And more important, it WONT FIX class stacking, if mobs are harder to kill people will bring even MORE CWs cuz their AP generation has been fixed (i like that more than nerf, infinite singularity was'nt WaI) and more GWFs.
If the nerf of CWs DPS and GWFs deep gash come with a DPS increase for other classes, we will have a phase of adaptation of the player base, but might work as a durable "fix" to the class balance, but i'm afraid it will cause the inverse effect, make the "buff/debuff festival" the only setup on endgame, leaving TRs and HRs out of parties for a long time, but worse than that, making only 1 choice on build, itemization and gameplay valid for the classes on that party setup and that's not a healthy enviroment.
Still probably is the less evil of the solutions short term.
People tends to forget how the metagame has changed since open beta, "2CWs 2DCs TR" was the only setup for draco till they nerfed Astral shield stacking, 3xCW DC TR after that, (im gonna ignore the brief GF's bugs domination oneshotting bosses and stacking ITF) in the majority of player base TRs were running amok being probably 40% of the players and just obliterating PvP, nerf after nerf TRs are now unwanted in endgame dungs, but not because they're not the single target best dps class, its because GWFs single target dps is almost as good while being infinitely better in every other aspect, but they stil are in the good side of the PvP ladder. Give back some of the pre nerfs DPS to rogues and fix deep gash and TRs will be fine.
DCs are in a weird spot, for 95% of the player base, they're ok, every non elite party needs healz. For the 5%... well they're more useful as a debuff bots that spam astral shield than anything else, and most high end parties dont need either, and in PvP they are receiving a sledge hammer now on how the class was played, and i have no idea on how to fix that, really i dunno how to fix DCs situation or if its really broken itself, probably removing righterousness now that healing depression comes will save the day in PvP, but in PvE high endgame the only valid setup will be buffbot with astral shield, kinda boring.
HRs will dominate for a while after CWs nerf, let them learn a little how to play, because most HR players are bad team players, just fix their agro generation, as i said i cant lose agro to any CW out there, i do lose agro to some HR powers.
GFs fixes i've already wrote tons of times, i dont want to become a GWF with a shield, it will be the reverse situation, i just want the class to be smoother/faster in animations, Villian's menace working closer to unstoppable with a damage reduction added to the buff, and into the fray extended duration, just by that class would be perfect.
I've alwais said this, and still think it, GF is probably the best dessigned class since the beggining, the most balanced, always good but not great in PvE and PvP, didnt need big nerfs or big buffs (stalwart bulwark aside, until now), i have the feel it was the first class dessigned, if they nerf CWs dps output GFs will be wanted again in the 95% of the -15k GS players, and im fine with that.
So, in summary... nerfing/buffing is always lazy dessign, and those devs are not lazy, they make efforts in dessigning new dungeons and improve the gameplay, but is also the easiest and most cost effective way to balance the existing gameplay, and right now, CWs/GWFs are just too good, they know it, everybody knows it, so it needs some fixing, i just despise that fixing PvE affects PvP and viceversa, always a bad feeling and griefing there, PvP and PvE should be separated, but i also have the feeling its some kind of code wall here, might not be implementable in this game without major overhaul of the coding, CWs already having a big hit with the new PvP changes, (that's why persephone, usually a civil poster, is so mad and dont want more nerfing) i just hope deep gash gets nerfed ASAP and CWs recover some of the AP generation to make for the loss of burst damage.
Meh.
Mehhhh.
No it wont...
In fact you'll be in the same shoes you are in now. It won't change a thing. All it really will have done is made the dungeons harder for everyone. And they'll be requiring 3-4 CW parties. Worse the 8600 gs players will now have to play without it entirely.
Why? Because you're not making the distinction between single target damage and AoE damage. With no crowd control the other classes are not designed to deal with it. And when they drop, so does the GF. With the way these dungeons are designed, you're going to be overwhelmed with nothing but single target damagers and they're not going to be able to kill fast enough. Those classes are not designed to take a pounding.
The GF can... but they can't.
That's where the flaw in your thinking is, and where Persephony is correct.
Oh... other input, in legit i take non CW runs to anywhere, and you know?? we succeed!! weird huh?
Well actually we were on the same page and saying the same things,
I just added that now there's more mobs that you can't use crowd control on. But that definitely explains why CWs no longer go the crowd control path. I experienced it myself when trying the old way. So there's basically no crowd control anymore, when it used to be the most viable option for the CWs over and above the AoE role.
That would be it in a nutshell,
And I did not realize rogues were also nerfed, and that's why there's a problem now.
Seems that every one of these nerfs has caused more problems than its solved and unbalanced the game even worse than before.
Nerfing even more will just cause more problems. In fact I think they need to go back on their previous changes and realize they made bad ones.
EDIT: One of the other dungeon balance issues is that those Adds have way more health than they should. Why does it take two CWs to properly do what one CW should be able to do with AoEs? Well that's because they overdid the health on the adds and trash mobs. The general encounter in a large crowd scenario is supposed to be lower health adds, with one strong mob. Instead all the adds have the health of the large strong mob, making multiple nukes necessary when in reality the D&D game does not. Requiring of course, more Wizards to do what should be the job of one Wizard and his fireballs.
Same with my Guardian Fighter. GWFs just take my "bread" and make me useless for almost everything.
WTB Class Reroll please
- CWs were, and are OP, in PvE, as much as they are underpowered in PvP. They have the best cc and best AoE DPS, now on par with GWFs. If deep gash gets a nerf, they will be n°1 AoE DPS uncontested, again
- GWFs used to suck and had no place in PvE. Was not really a matter of dungeon design. Their AoE DPS sucked compared to CWs. Now they have strong AoE DPS, so they are the second choice after the CWs have been taken. To tank the boss, also.
- DCs were a must, now many players are overgeared for most dungeons, and also you don't need heals when 3 CWs can keep the mobs cced the Whole time and, with the help of 2 GWFs, nuke them down fast. Still, they are needed and required in most groups by "normal" players or for hard dungeons/ bosses.
- GFs are better tanks than GWFs. And will be even more with module 3. Problem is, here, the dungeon design makes almost no use of tanks. So, i'd say it's a dungeon design problem here. FH, for example, makes good use of GFs. We just need more cc resistant mobs, hitting hard and hard to take down. This way a tank who can kite the crowd and keep aggro, while tanking with his shield, would have a role.
- TRs and HRs are meant to be interchangeable for single target DPS. One is melee, the other is ranged. Can't say much about them. May be more dungeons with less trash and more mini-bosses to take down could put their single target damage at good use. Or more boss fights per dungeon.
I think the roles should be
CW-->primary cc, second AoE damage dealer, OR put a huge number of cc resistant, heavy hitting mobs in dungeons.
GWF--> primary AoE DPS, second cc
DC--->healer
GF--->tank, aggro, kite mobs that are cc resistant, hard to take down and hit very hard
TRs-HRs---> heaviest single target DPS for mini-bosses, bosses, exc...
Class balance and dungeon design, imho, should go in that direction.
God no! can we please end the "kiting" and go to hell with it? if you want to kite take a surf and a parachute and practice kite surf, you either tank or kill stuff, as a Dwarf i refuse to continue kiting stuff, i barely agree to do it in FH just because most pugs are not good enough to kill everything fast enough, but that's bad dessign... SAY NO TO KITING!!!
All damage dealing classes should compete for top spot.
CW is the Mage class. It is the Magic Damage Dealing Class. Is pretty simple. Until we have something even more DPS-focused, such as a warlock or a pure DPS wizards, this is what we have. They should by all means be able to to top damage dealt (if built for this), however...
HRs, TRs and GWFs built for DPS should also be able to do the same.
Dungeon should NOT be "errm, trash pack here AoE, trash pack there AoE" etc. Packs should have uberelites in them, that require tanking/melee DPS/priority targeting, while the other smaller trash can be CCed, and later AoEed, and other such mechanics.
What we have now is a very, very lazy design that requirs no strategy and no tactics but AoE.
Basically, stop blaming the classes first, or even mechanics, when the dungeon design is the root of all evil.
And stop treating the Wizard like some dumb "I stun you!" class, for as long as we don't have other dedicated magic damage dealer.
I'm not sure how to put this in simpler words. Every MMO/RPG veteran of many years would understand me.
This, I believe, will melt a lot of player's brains.
On the weekend my guild (2 GWFs, DC and me as a GF) wanted to run SP. We asked for a CW via /LFG. We got one and he immediately had reservations about the group composition and its potential for success. He was concerned by there only being 1 CW and by the presence of my GF.
We were able to start and complete two SP runs inside the dungeon delve event, Yes, it wasn't optimal because we couldn't do it in 20 minutes, but point is we done it without 2/3 CWs.
DC:
My solution for the dc would make the healing potions , artifacts and mimimi instead of renewing " x " real hp , had changed her to a temporary hp that was slowly drained value. There regen and life steal , but at some point, only the dc could save someone .
tell by the way , would make the defender more important.
Now let the fallacies
Gf vs gwf :
The gwf not have the capacity to defend the party (previously accepted ) . Therefore , it does not take the place of defender ( gf ) . Therefore , there is no " gwf vs gf " .
Even as the dps gwf doing damage is a bug . The cancellation was a bug , ap generators were bugs , the bleed is a bug . Gwf was never officially viable . And by the way , never will.
Your real problem : the best the defender has to offer is to pull adds that he could not handle / control ... otherwise control the cw is not mitigated against multiple targets (i think) but the combat advantage against you can be the most reduced.
This is an internal defect of fighters , offensive and defensive . Our mechanics are reversed ... yes, the pvp and pve could be much more balanced .
rogue Fallacy : What difference does it make if there are partys with multiple gwf / cw with tons of aoe if a rogue , relying only on their own abilities , can perform various dungeons alone?
Real problem of rogue :
1 - futility of their ability to disarm traps. I hate arguments like " the problem of the class is designe of dungeons " but in this case it is a fact . increase rogue damage / aoe give only do such as the optional gwf is today. is necessary for its utilitarian function becomes important.
First: Dungeon design is terrible from TR point of view!
- Loads of high-HP trash mobs on the way to boss. So it's natural that AoE dps and CC classes are wanted.
- Constant spawning of trash during the boss fight. So again, AoE is king even in boss fights.
- Mobs spamming AoE. Sometimes 85% of the central fight area is covered in red. CW/HR can CC/nuke from distance, DC can heal from distance, GWF/GF can facetank large part of AoE. Melee TR? Must stay close but can't facetank AoE and must dodge out of red. Sometimes I can't land a full duelist furry for half a minute because constant need of dodging.
- AoE does more damage than direct boss strike! 95% of my TRs deaths is not that I dpsed to much and boss aggroed to me, not that I failed rotation. It's one-shooting AoE rings dealing >20K damage. And yeah, best thing is to dodge one AoE ring just to land in another one or no not-red area is reachable by my dodge! Bam, one-shot!
- Again: AoE rings around bosses. So yeah, even if i'm in stealth i have to stop the rotation and dodge. And some bosses love to spam AoE rings around themselves.
- Traps. There are nearly no traps in dungeons. If they are present, they do not pose large threat. And a rogue can't disarm them in combat. So, pretty much his utility role is useless.
Second: Class roles and mechanics balances are terrible! -> Tank/DPS/Healer/CC role do not work at all
- If GWF makes nearly the same damge on single target but can AoE, has higher damage resistance from armor and has Unstoppable mechanics, why take TR?
- CW can be both controller and dps and in AoE version!
- If I'm not one-shooted by AoE and can go into stealth I can pop a potion and with moderate life steal I can rebuild full health really fast. So DC are nice to have, but not necessary. That's really bad.
- Since CW is so strong, GF is not required for tanking. And is instead asked for kitting! Kitting tank!
Third: PvP balance influencing PvE and vice versa.
- TRs were in the beginning insanely strong in PvP (single target damage specialists + stealth) -> nerf after nerf (next one incoming today, LOL!) -> become weak and unwanted in PvE
- GWFs weak in PvE -> buff after buff -> insanely strong in PvP, for PvP Iron Vanguard Sentinel the most OP class I have ever seen in any MMORPG
Solutions:
- Design future dungeons that they require more balanced party setup. Dead magic zones, 4-5 stronged trash mobs instead of 20, mobs with high resistance to specific type of damage (fire/ice/melee).
- Bosses one-shooting everyone but specialized tanks, less trash mobs spawned during boss fights -> give GF place for their primary role
- Make self-healing in dungeons harder, introduce second healer class -> make healers more desired!
- Makes certain class powers and skills work differently in PvP, so you no PvP<->PvE class balance issues
- Give DC ability to turn undead creatures!
- Give TR ability to disarm traps in combat/place his own ones. Make more objects/secrets in the dungeons requiring class skills (illusions which DC/CW can deal with, locked doors to optional boss which TR can open, walls GWF/GF can bash, optional bosses/shortcuts Ranger can "track", etc.)
- It is becoming clearer and clearer that balancing PvP and PvE at the same time is anywhere between "extremely hard" and "downright imposslbe". Considering the devs are still struggling with basic concepts such as "T1 isn't supossed to be better than T2", I'd say they do not stand a chance at succeeding.
- About tanking, aggro, etc, I think you are failing to put the issue clear when we say that tanks are hardly needed. Put in very simple words:
I CAN hold aggro.
I CAN take a good beating, unless the enemy starts chaining CCs that for some reason I can not block and still hit me if I move outside of the red circle. (Charti I am looking at you!).
So, that seems to mean I CAN tank. But guess what?
> 95% of mob attacks fall under one of these categories:
- Super-slow attacks that you can move out the way, and I merely block for the AP gain, but could just avoid, as could any other class in melee.
- AoE attacks that must be avoided by each person, and thus, my ability to tank them is irrelevant to team survival.
- Hits that are way too low to notice, and anyone can take without a problem.
Therefore, there is very, very little unavoidable damage for me to take instead of my mates. Wether I tank or not is irrelevant, and my main role is to debuff the enemy, and having it as nicely cluttered as possible, which CWs do better anyways.
Therefore, even if I tank, I either CAN'T or DO NOT NEED TO defend my team mates. Thus invalidating my position as a tank, and turning me into a debuff bot.
What people don't get is that CWs don't have to be nuked. The current BASE damage on most spell is fine, balanced, etc. The issue is high vizier + thaumaturge debuffs + greater plabuefire/terror/whatever (provided the tank or the cleric don't use that already, which is obviously more optimal to faceroll content even faster).
A few days ago I had a GWF buddy reporting 200k+ encounters and 130k non crit "IBS" (not sure about what it is, I don't play the class, all he told me is that it was per mob) when I was playing my cleric with high prophet, hallowed ground, linked spirit, divine glow. Of course in "normal" parties not using cookie cutter builds, the game is still challenging, there are wipes and leavers, so my suggestion is to work on what makes the game a faceroll for the high end parties without hurting the whole playerbase. That's extremely simple to understand and cannot hurt the casuals complaining about pirate king or cloak tower being too hard. There's some mathematical elegance in that solution and I really hope the devs are considering to do something. Design changes won't do much if they don't do that change.
Then we may see more renegade/Shadow weaver wizard and parties inviting tanks and clerics because they kinda need someone to deal with the damage NPCs do since the metagame should be less about pulling as much as you can until your soulforge procs before casting massive aoe debuffs and wiping the floor with aoes with no target caps, healing yourself for 50 to 100k with lifesteal while you're slauthering half of the dungeon in one pull.
This is pretty much right, although I would add that that the DC should be a healer / buffer / debuffer / moderate DPS (more or less what they can be now anyway), and that having the GF as designated 'kiter' just seems wrong. Having the 'tank' class running round in circles with all the adds staggering after him seems utterly incongruous....
Right now
GWF >> GF, TR
and
CW >>> GF, TR, HR.
which is absurd. There is very little reason after you get to a moderate GS to have any other class other than a CW (*), which is simply causing frustration amongst the rest of the player base. Sure GWFs might currently have close to CW's damage now, but CWs bring a hell of a lot more than pure damage to party.
(*) Yeah there is a niche role in an ideal setup for some correctly equipped classes to act as CW-buffers, but it is much easier and almost as fast just to stack another CW. And what about the HR and TR...
I shall bear that in mind the next time I am gathering and facetanking an entire room in VT or ToS on my GWF. It's all an illusion, and isn't really happening.