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A Plea for the Underclass(es)
tripsofthrymr
Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,624 Community Moderator
Hanging around NW_Legit_Community, where many outstanding players discuss the state of the game (and welcome/help new players too), it is clear that some classes are just not desirable for end-game content. Many players that originally had characters in those classes (myself included) have moved on to play other, more sought-after classes. Note: This is about PvE. I don't PvP enough to comment on that. I do have a level 60 character of each class.
Guardian Fighter
Who needs a GF when a GWF is just as durable and can do way more damage? Sure the GWF lacks AoE taunt, but if he's outputting that much damage and killing things that fast anyhow, the GF just isn't needed. It used to be that my GF got dusted off for FH whenever someone needed their T2 boots. Now, we just take a party of GWF's and CW's (not even a DC) and stack the adds on the boss. Sure, we're over-geared for FH. But my GF isn't going to get any invites to CN. The shiny new improvements to the GF due out tomorrow won't change that.
Trickster Rogue
"Anything you can do, I can do better! I can do anything better than you!", sung the Hunter Ranger. Sure a TR can shine for single-target DPS, but let's face it, the game in its current state is about overcoming hordes of adds. I see frequently in NW_Legit_Community posts like *lol* TR lfg any T2 *lol*, and many comments from former rogues that say they rolled a new character because they are never in demand.
Devoted Cleric
Not nearly as on-the-ropes as the GF or TR, and certainly needed for CN and VT (at least, by the vast majority of parties). However, an excellent team can do any T2 content plus MC without a DC. If you fill that DC's slot with another GWF or CW, the content goes much faster. With only 2 destinations, my DC rarely comes out to play.
Each of these classes is well thought out and fun to play. However, the GWF makes a better GF and the HR makes a better TR for most content. The CW in fact, does a lot more than control. They are usually the DPS leader by a wide margin in addition to controlling the hordes of adds.
I sincerely hope that with Module 3 onward, more attention will be paid to keeping these classes certainly not required, but at least useful and desirable to have in end-game content.
- Luminus the Devoted Cleric
Overheard during DD today:
[NW_Legit_Community] AAA@aaa: tr up for anything
[NW_Legit_Community] BBB@bbb: ****, i'm really fed up with being TR
[NW_Legit_Community] CCC@ccc: Pretend to be a gwf?
[NW_Legit_Community] DDD@ddd Stormfell@irk2013: Why?
[NW_Legit_Community] CCC@ccc: I hear they get groups all the time
Guardian Fighter
Who needs a GF when a GWF is just as durable and can do way more damage? Sure the GWF lacks AoE taunt, but if he's outputting that much damage and killing things that fast anyhow, the GF just isn't needed. It used to be that my GF got dusted off for FH whenever someone needed their T2 boots. Now, we just take a party of GWF's and CW's (not even a DC) and stack the adds on the boss. Sure, we're over-geared for FH. But my GF isn't going to get any invites to CN. The shiny new improvements to the GF due out tomorrow won't change that.
Trickster Rogue
"Anything you can do, I can do better! I can do anything better than you!", sung the Hunter Ranger. Sure a TR can shine for single-target DPS, but let's face it, the game in its current state is about overcoming hordes of adds. I see frequently in NW_Legit_Community posts like *lol* TR lfg any T2 *lol*, and many comments from former rogues that say they rolled a new character because they are never in demand.
Devoted Cleric
Not nearly as on-the-ropes as the GF or TR, and certainly needed for CN and VT (at least, by the vast majority of parties). However, an excellent team can do any T2 content plus MC without a DC. If you fill that DC's slot with another GWF or CW, the content goes much faster. With only 2 destinations, my DC rarely comes out to play.
Each of these classes is well thought out and fun to play. However, the GWF makes a better GF and the HR makes a better TR for most content. The CW in fact, does a lot more than control. They are usually the DPS leader by a wide margin in addition to controlling the hordes of adds.
I sincerely hope that with Module 3 onward, more attention will be paid to keeping these classes certainly not required, but at least useful and desirable to have in end-game content.
- Luminus the Devoted Cleric
Overheard during DD today:
[NW_Legit_Community] AAA@aaa: tr up for anything
[NW_Legit_Community] BBB@bbb: ****, i'm really fed up with being TR
[NW_Legit_Community] CCC@ccc: Pretend to be a gwf?
[NW_Legit_Community] DDD@ddd Stormfell@irk2013: Why?
[NW_Legit_Community] CCC@ccc: I hear they get groups all the time
Caritas Guild Founder (Greycloak Alliance)
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
Post edited by tripsofthrymr on
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Same here - I hang out on /Legit and I can't remember the last time someone specifically asked for an HR. People are fine about taking HRs, but they are definitely not asked for.
As for
I do think that is a little excessive self-praise. /Legit doesn't have a monopoly on the best players, it just serves as /LFG for people who don't want to glitch dungeons.
Also I don't really see why you seem to be particularly singling out GWFs either as CWs are almost always a better choice than a TR, GF AND an HR. Even when GWFs were garbage before Module 2 the endgame was, as it still is, all about stacking CW anyway. So if you want things to change then you really need to rebalance both GWFs and CWs in PvE.
Do you feel your TR contributes as much to the success of the adventure as a CW or GWF played with similar skill?
People with an inclusive guild, or who are friendly/sociable can often find a group regardless.
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
TRs are only needed to bypass content or in very specific single-target situations (DK runs). Otherwise, nah. I'd even take a KC GF before them in most situations.
HR issue is aggro, bad ones spread out mobs like crazy.
I don't agree on DCs though. Buffing Clerics belong in the most efficient lineup there is.
Well, I have never seen a non-TR run so I can't really compare. I do feel I bring enough to the table. Yes, TRs are a bit weak because the game currently favors AoE to get to the boss quickly, but I think party leaders are fools to completely dismiss TRs.
I don't consider it *self* praise. I don't consider myself to be one of the top players. But I have met many top players there. I'm sure there are top players that don't hang out there, that is just where I go in addition to my guild to socialize.
Didn't mean to single out the GWF. I updated my post with a comment that a good CW usually leads the damage scoreboard, in addition to controlling all the adds.
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
I agree completely with this. A classes path's should be about trade-offs.
For example, a GWF can choose between full AoE DPS, 'tanky' DPS and 'Tank' paths. In no situation should a GWF be tankier and higher DPS than a GF at the same time. (This situation is slightly complicated by the fact that traditional 'tanks' are pointless at present in Neverwinter dungeons, but the idea is clear enough.)
Similarly, a CW should have to choose between superb control/low DPS, decent control/decent DPS and a pure DPS spec.
Right now GWFs and especially CWs don't have to do this which renders half the classes in this game unappealing.
CW Should either get less Damage or less control, right now he's king of both, and of course that makes things umbalanced.
Unless they change dungeons and make them less adds filled. If dungeons had less trash mobs and more elite ones, probably partyies would get other roles than CW's.
A party may take a fully geared end game TR and 99.9% them will take only one.
But just to look at the TRs that look for a dungeon for DD to get missing set items, and no one will take them, not because they are bad, but because if you have one GWF to aggro and hold the mobs while the CWs just evaporate everything, then who need the tr ? to reduce half min on the boss ? a CW will reduce the whole run by minutes.
It's not the HR doing everything better, it's actually everyone in todays "meta-game" are more usefull than TR.
Everyone would be happy to see 3CW in a party and will be very afraid if there will be 3TRs in one.
(there are exceptions... but generally, for the average players i agree with the op)
As long as CW gets a significant buff in PVP, that would be a fair trade
I am pretty sure that (almost) no-one would object to that. Trading off some DPS for better defense would probably help balance out the issues associated with CWs in both PvP and PvE.
This is your problem right here. Of course over geared parties aren't going to require the same balancing that a relevantly geared one would.
And it's not really a problem, since what you see at way over-geared levels isn't at all what you see at relevant ones. You aren't going to see all GWF/CW, no cleric parties running t2s with 8300 gs, no perfects, and no boons, not without a lot of health stones and scrolls of life.
The real issue is that players now demand what effectively amount to speed runs, with characters vastly out-gearing the content. 12k + stone + enchants + boons is one HECK of a lot higher than the 8300 required to queue, and despite the typical pug experience in this game, nearly all the epic dungeons are easily doable with just a properly balanced minimum gear score party.
While the general dungeon design and class balance leave a lot to be desired in this game, this is less a symptom of those things and more a symptom of the average PC easily becoming vastly over-geared for nearly all the content available.
Okay, Panic.
I'm in awe!!! i'm sure Devs were unaware of it too, because there has been a total void of topics in that issue in the last months...
Sarcasm aside, MMOs are really hard to balance to a perfect state, MMOs with pvp and pve are IMPOSSIBLE to, you must adapt and understand that those games are an everchanging enviroment, heck, even i will start pvping to adapt to the new content, create a topic giving feedback ideas on how to improve the situation instead of saying... they dont want me
Some ideas :
Add elite mobs inmune to melee, some inmune to all forms of magic, some impossible to damage if you are not in their backs, elite archers unreachable other than from range.
Give DCs Undead killing! make them absolute beast killing undead, turning them, etc...
Villian's menace should give high damage resistance, not inmunity, but close to, is a daily and the buff is only 6 seconds.
Into the fray should have extended uptime!
GF's animations should be smoother and faster.
Give TRs their open beta bleed back! (or a new paragon path that makes them shine in the AoE heavy enviroment)
HRs are nice... but they're not nice enough to get a CW or a GWF slot, lower the agro they generate so worse players dont disrupt the parties.
Give us a "Difficulty ladder" for those of us who are 8k over requirement in all dungeons.
All those suggestions are far, far more work for the Devs then simply rebalancing the DPS output of a couple of classes. So while good ideas, they are not likely to be implemented for a very, VERY, long time, if ever.
No disagreement, but this is the only MMO I have played where a single class has been so utterly dominant in PvE for such a long time. From Open Beta till now, stacking as many CWs as you can find has been the best option. No one is asking for perfect balance, just not perfect PvE class imbalance.
A buff to the CW's defense and a reduction in their AOE damage would solve a lot of issues. Combine this with a nerf to the Sentinel line, and the balance in PvE and PvP would be a lot better than now, even if not perfect...
Whirlwind barb from diablo 3. And I gotta say, that is slightly more annoying than the CW in this game though both are imbalanced in PVE.
Its not exactly an MMO, but earning loot and selling to a worldwide auction house gives it enough MMO elements wherein an imbalance in PVE directly and negatively impacts other players.
That only will solve GFs role, without mobs melting down, GFs would get their main role again... but nerfing CWs and GWFs... will just kill any other class!!!
Well, as you said that isn't really an MMO, although there are some overlaps.
In any case, AFAIK, that was nerfed to the ground after not that much more time than has passed in Neverwinter since Open Beta...
I don't see it. Legit is just /lfg for people who don't wanna exploit. Though with some/most of the exploits being fixed that part is less relevant than it used to be. It's just a community.
What I notice in /legit is the opposite of elitism.
Nobody advertises gs/stone/vorpal/etc resume like you see in /lfg. if people do they are generally made fun of. Generally people only advertise class, ie tr/cw/dc/gwf/etc lfg.
While some people are only looking for particular classes (ie need CW, gwf, etc), typically that's only reserved for a DC, ie "LF1M DC for x"
When I form groups there i always take the first 4 ppl who respond. Sometimes I end up with 2 DCs or 2 GFs or whatever. not optimal but we make it work, its nbd. Can still do dungeons fast enough to get 3 runs in during a DD hour. I rarely log in early enough for any "preclear" time so 3 in an hour isn't terrible in a sub-optimal group.
nobody is ever looking for an HR. certain people do reserve spots for a TR. some lower end people reserve spots for GF and DC. It's a mixed bag, the only common thread in /legit is the desire not to exploit through walls and skip half the dungeon or bug bosses.
I would have to agree with this.
Without that kind of AoE support and control, these dungeons would be impossible for EVERY class then. The real problem here is how the encounters are balanced. Honestly the CW is doing pretty much exactly what its suppose to according to D&D. The Devs really nailed this one accurately in the scope of Dungeons and Dragons.
But when all your dungeons are catering to the strengths of one class, yeah the others are going to suffer for it. Wizards in D&D have always excelled in any situation where there are multiple weaker opponents they are stacked with excellent AoE and Control powers. That's what they were designed to do in the grand scheme of class balance.
That is actually normal.
There's no real solution here that wont screw over every other class other than a Dungeon rebalancing. Because removing the AoE class, in this type of situation with these kinds of dungeons, means those TRs and GFs are going to get hosed too and overwhelmed.
So what people are asking for here in terms of nerfing... is a really really bad idea.
I agree. Just wanted to indicate that I find very good players there, discussing these issues. I'll update the original post to make that more clear.
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
All true, and I do get your point.
However, and it is a HUGE however, the chances of the Devs rebalancing the entire set of dungeons is basically zero. Reducing the AoE damage of CWs and GWF will make dungeons harder, but at the same time it will be a much more level playing field. Even if they have to significantly boost the AoE damage of the other classes, that is still far less work than having the entire set of dungeons be rebalanced.
Do I think what you and frarii have suggested is the better option? Yes, definitely.
Do I think there is a realistic chance of it happening? Sadly, not a snowball's chance....