Well, it's really, really hard to be PvE TR, especially melee one.
First: Dungeon design is terrible from TR point of view!
- Loads of high-HP trash mobs on the way to boss. So it's natural that AoE dps and CC classes are wanted.
- Constant spawning of trash during the boss fight. So again, AoE is king even in boss fights.
- Mobs spamming AoE. Sometimes 85% of the central fight area is covered in red. CW/HR can CC/nuke from distance, DC can heal from distance, GWF/GF can facetank large part of AoE. Melee TR? Must stay close but can't facetank AoE and must dodge out of red. Sometimes I can't land a full duelist furry for half a minute because constant need of dodging.
- AoE does more damage than direct boss strike! 95% of my TRs deaths is not that I dpsed to much and boss aggroed to me, not that I failed rotation. It's one-shooting AoE rings dealing >20K damage. And yeah, best thing is to dodge one AoE ring just to land in another one or no not-red area is reachable by my dodge! Bam, one-shot!
- Again: AoE rings around bosses. So yeah, even if i'm in stealth i have to stop the rotation and dodge. And some bosses love to spam AoE rings around themselves.
- Traps. There are nearly no traps in dungeons. If they are present, they do not pose large threat. And a rogue can't disarm them in combat. So, pretty much his utility role is useless.
Second: Class roles and mechanics balances are terrible! -> Tank/DPS/Healer/CC role do not work at all
- If GWF makes nearly the same damge on single target but can AoE, has higher damage resistance from armor and has Unstoppable mechanics, why take TR?
- CW can be both controller and dps and in AoE version!
- If I'm not one-shooted by AoE and can go into stealth I can pop a potion and with moderate life steal I can rebuild full health really fast. So DC are nice to have, but not necessary. That's really bad.
- Since CW is so strong, GF is not required for tanking. And is instead asked for kitting! Kitting tank!
Third: PvP balance influencing PvE and vice versa.
- TRs were in the beginning insanely strong in PvP (single target damage specialists + stealth) -> nerf after nerf (next one incoming today, LOL!) -> become weak and unwanted in PvE
- GWFs weak in PvE -> buff after buff -> insanely strong in PvP, for PvP Iron Vanguard Sentinel the most OP class I have ever seen in any MMORPG
Solutions:
- Design future dungeons that they require more balanced party setup. Dead magic zones, 4-5 stronged trash mobs instead of 20, mobs with high resistance to specific type of damage (fire/ice/melee).
- Bosses one-shooting everyone but specialized tanks, less trash mobs spawned during boss fights -> give GF place for their primary role
- Make self-healing in dungeons harder, introduce second healer class -> make healers more desired!
- Makes certain class powers and skills work differently in PvP, so you no PvP<->PvE class balance issues
- Give DC ability to turn undead creatures!
- Give TR ability to disarm traps in combat/place his own ones. Make more objects/secrets in the dungeons requiring class skills (illusions which DC/CW can deal with, locked doors to optional boss which TR can open, walls GWF/GF can bash, optional bosses/shortcuts Ranger can "track", etc.)
Ratharel - stealthy backstabber from the Myth Drannor
- It is becoming clearer and clearer that balancing PvP and PvE at the same time is anywhere between "extremely hard" and "downright imposslbe". Considering the devs are still struggling with basic concepts such as "T1 isn't supossed to be better than T2", I'd say they do not stand a chance at succeeding.
- About tanking, aggro, etc, I think you are failing to put the issue clear when we say that tanks are hardly needed. Put in very simple words:
I CAN hold aggro.
I CAN take a good beating, unless the enemy starts chaining CCs that for some reason I can not block and still hit me if I move outside of the red circle. (Charti I am looking at you!).
So, that seems to mean I CAN tank. But guess what?
> 95% of mob attacks fall under one of these categories:
- Super-slow attacks that you can move out the way, and I merely block for the AP gain, but could just avoid, as could any other class in melee.
- AoE attacks that must be avoided by each person, and thus, my ability to tank them is irrelevant to team survival.
- Hits that are way too low to notice, and anyone can take without a problem.
Therefore, there is very, very little unavoidable damage for me to take instead of my mates. Wether I tank or not is irrelevant, and my main role is to debuff the enemy, and having it as nicely cluttered as possible, which CWs do better anyways.
Therefore, even if I tank, I either CAN'T or DO NOT NEED TO defend my team mates. Thus invalidating my position as a tank, and turning me into a debuff bot.
They did try to use new dungeons design: malabog. Unfortunately, for high-end players, it makes little to no difference, the scheme is the same, debuff, debuff, woohoo, 80k shard/mob hit, woohoo, 120k non crit sudden storm, and so on. If they want to make everyone happy the devs will have to introduce something like a diminishing returns on debuff stacking. There's no way around it. This or make some content so hard it locks 90% of the playerbase out of it, and this isn't going to happen.
What people don't get is that CWs don't have to be nuked. The current BASE damage on most spell is fine, balanced, etc. The issue is high vizier + thaumaturge debuffs + greater plabuefire/terror/whatever (provided the tank or the cleric don't use that already, which is obviously more optimal to faceroll content even faster).
A few days ago I had a GWF buddy reporting 200k+ encounters and 130k non crit "IBS" (not sure about what it is, I don't play the class, all he told me is that it was per mob) when I was playing my cleric with high prophet, hallowed ground, linked spirit, divine glow. Of course in "normal" parties not using cookie cutter builds, the game is still challenging, there are wipes and leavers, so my suggestion is to work on what makes the game a faceroll for the high end parties without hurting the whole playerbase. That's extremely simple to understand and cannot hurt the casuals complaining about pirate king or cloak tower being too hard. There's some mathematical elegance in that solution and I really hope the devs are considering to do something. Design changes won't do much if they don't do that change.
Then we may see more renegade/Shadow weaver wizard and parties inviting tanks and clerics because they kinda need someone to deal with the damage NPCs do since the metagame should be less about pulling as much as you can until your soulforge procs before casting massive aoe debuffs and wiping the floor with aoes with no target caps, healing yourself for 50 to 100k with lifesteal while you're slauthering half of the dungeon in one pull.
I think the roles should be
CW-->primary cc, second AoE damage dealer, OR put a huge number of cc resistant, heavy hitting mobs in dungeons.
GWF--> primary AoE DPS, second cc
DC--->healer
GF--->tank, aggro, kite mobs that are cc resistant, hard to take down and hit very hard
TRs-HRs---> heaviest single target DPS for mini-bosses, bosses, exc...
Class balance and dungeon design, imho, should go in that direction.
This is pretty much right, although I would add that that the DC should be a healer / buffer / debuffer / moderate DPS (more or less what they can be now anyway), and that having the GF as designated 'kiter' just seems wrong. Having the 'tank' class running round in circles with all the adds staggering after him seems utterly incongruous....
Right now
GWF >> GF, TR
and
CW >>> GF, TR, HR.
which is absurd. There is very little reason after you get to a moderate GS to have any other class other than a CW (*), which is simply causing frustration amongst the rest of the player base. Sure GWFs might currently have close to CW's damage now, but CWs bring a hell of a lot more than pure damage to party.
(*) Yeah there is a niche role in an ideal setup for some correctly equipped classes to act as CW-buffers, but it is much easier and almost as fast just to stack another CW. And what about the HR and TR...
- CWs were, and are OP, in PvE, as much as they are underpowered in PvP. They have the best cc and best AoE DPS, now on par with GWFs. If deep gash gets a nerf, they will be n°1 AoE DPS uncontested, again
- GWFs used to suck and had no place in PvE. Was not really a matter of dungeon design. Their AoE DPS sucked compared to CWs. Now they have strong AoE DPS, so they are the second choice after the CWs have been taken. To tank the boss, also.
- DCs were a must, now many players are overgeared for most dungeons, and also you don't need heals when 3 CWs can keep the mobs cced the Whole time and, with the help of 2 GWFs, nuke them down fast. Still, they are needed and required in most groups by "normal" players or for hard dungeons/ bosses.
- GFs are better tanks than GWFs. And will be even more with module 3. Problem is, here, the dungeon design makes almost no use of tanks. So, i'd say it's a dungeon design problem here. FH, for example, makes good use of GFs. We just need more cc resistant mobs, hitting hard and hard to take down. This way a tank who can kite the crowd and keep aggro, while tanking with his shield, would have a role.
- TRs and HRs are meant to be interchangeable for single target DPS. One is melee, the other is ranged. Can't say much about them. May be more dungeons with less trash and more mini-bosses to take down could put their single target damage at good use. Or more boss fights per dungeon.
The gwf not have the capacity to defend the party (previously accepted ) . Therefore , it does not take the place of defender ( gf ) . Therefore , there is no " gwf vs gf " .
I shall bear that in mind the next time I am gathering and facetanking an entire room in VT or ToS on my GWF. It's all an illusion, and isn't really happening.
I shall bear that in mind the next time I am gathering and facetanking an entire room in VT or ToS on my GWF. It's all an illusion, and isn't really happening.
oh, you can dance in red zone, killing all enemies and become semi-immortal with an amazing life steal + unstoppable? Congratulations, you, me, and any gwf from right gear can do the same.
I'm talking about the innate ability to defend a party and not to make a kamikaze attack in an easy dungeon.
"- Give TR ability to disarm traps in combat/place his own ones. Make more objects/secrets in the dungeons requiring class skills (illusions which DC/CW can deal with, locked doors to optional boss which TR can open, walls GWF/GF can bash, optional bosses/shortcuts Ranger can "track", etc.) "
this is vital, vital, vital to the game. requires that there are challenges that are independent of its ability to damage.
oh, you can dance in red zone, killing all enemies and become semi-immortal with an amazing life steal + unstoppable? Congratulations, you, me, and any gwf from right gear can do the same.
I'm talking about the innate ability to defend a party and not to make a kamikaze attack in an easy dungeon.
Such an ability, as I have pointed out earlier, does not exist, except by CC.
oh, you can dance in red zone, killing all enemies and become semi-immortal with an amazing life steal + unstoppable? Congratulations, you, me, and any gwf from right gear can do the same.
I'm talking about the innate ability to defend a party and not to make a kamikaze attack in an easy dungeon.
It's not entirely clear what you're talking about, and it's possible that you're shaky on it too. The ability to enter a room ahead of your party, pull all the mobs, group them on you, and whack them with a sword until they die, with very little damage on the party is close enough to tanking for me, as it was in the various other MMOs in which I have tanked. However, thank you so much for playing, I hope your class becomes in some way relevant again in future.
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
- CWs were, and are OP, in PvE, as much as they are underpowered in PvP. They have the best cc and best AoE DPS, now on par with GWFs. If deep gash gets a nerf, they will be n°1 AoE DPS uncontested, again.
This is pretty much incorrect,
In D&D the CW is supposed to be the best AoE DPS, that's what a Wizard does. They also have good crowd control. That's what the entire class was designed to do.
Large area fireballs and charm/mez, stuns, and freezes. Lightning Bolts and Meteor Swarms.
And for the record, CWs in this game have not had any damage changes, they've always had this kind of AoE damage. But prior to Control Powers being nerfed, that was a more viable path. Causing the Mages to turn to their AoE powers instead.
Its always been on par and even better than any GWF in D&D since the game came out, this has been this way for 40 years or so. The GWF was a close combat AoE who could only do it when it was in range of his weapon. The Mage was tossing large area of effect fireballs that far outdamaged any melee class. The GWF could beat him in Single Target damage. And the rogue could EASILY beat his single target damage. Rogue backstabbing and combat advantage damage should far outstrip a mage's single target damage.
In D&D the CW is supposed to be the best AoE DPS, that's what a Wizard does. They also have good crowd control. That's what the entire class was designed to do.
Large area fireballs and charm/mez, stuns, and freezes. Lightning Bolts and Meteor Swarms.
And for the record, CWs in this game have not had any damage changes, they've always had this kind of AoE damage. But prior to Control Powers being nerfed, that was a more viable path. Causing the Mages to turn to their AoE powers instead.
Its always been on par and even better than any GWF in D&D since the game came out, this has been this way for 40 years or so. The GWF was a close combat AoE who could only do it when it was in range of his weapon. The Mage was tossing large area of effect fireballs that far outdamaged any melee class. The GWF could beat him in Single Target damage. And the rogue could EASILY beat his single target damage. Rogue backstabbing and combat advantage damage should far outstrip a mage's single target damage.
That is how the game should work.
And then you have CW-only groups going to dungeons as we've seen so far, with any other class left out. GWFs right now are the only exception cause they can keep up with the monster AoE damage of CWs, thanks to deep gash.
You either HEAVILY change dungeons design, or you change the class the way i've described. D&D or not. Cause right now, and for at least 7-8 months, this way it does not work.
With current class design and dungeon design, CWs are as OP in PvE as the iron vanguard sentinel GWFs are in PvP. Plain and simple.
They can nuke to dust the entire dungeon while keeping all the mobs under cc.
And they can handle bosses too if needed.
This is NOT how the game should work.
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
With current class design and dungeon design, CWs are as OP in PvE as the iron vanguard sentinel GWFs are in PvP. Plain and simple.
They can nuke to dust the entire dungeon while keeping all the mobs under cc.
And they can handle bosses too if needed.
This is NOT how the game should work.
Well that's really the problem there,
When you design your dungeons to the strengths of one class, that's what's going to happen. The Wizard was designed to do just that. The entire class in D&D is all about this type of dungeon.
But its deeper than that in the actual dungeon design. Why does it take two Wizards to do the job one Wizard and his fireballs are supposed to be doing?
Its because they overdid the health of the adds/trash mobs in the dungeons. Ergo... people want tons of CWs because the entire class was designed to do this, and has been for 40 years since the game's inception back in the 1970s.
You want to make a change that will work?
Lighten the health of the trash mobs and add mobs in boss fights and on the way there so only ONE wizard is needed.
That's a pretty simple thing for a DM to do. That's the way the game is supposed to work. And yes even in the real game D&D two wizards is overkill.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
CWs are as OP in PvE as the iron vanguard sentinel GWFs are in PvP. Plain and simple.
They can nuke to dust the entire dungeon while keeping all the mobs under cc.
And they can handle bosses too if needed.
This is NOT how the game should work.
All of this is (partially) possible because of extremely bad dungeon design, as it was pretty much detailed in many posts.
Nerfing 2 classes is just stopping the illness for a bit, because the foolish dungeon design remains.
If you wanna fix the issue (i.e. not all classes being desired in PvE), then go and take out the root of the issue - dungeon design.
Good dungeon design requiring Tank+Heals+DPS is the basis of many classic&successful MMOs and RPGs.
Should be SIMPLE to apply, yet for some reason, it seems to be a challenge to Cryptic developers.
Its because they overdid the health of the adds/trash mobs in the dungeons. Ergo... people want tons of CWs because the entire class was designed to do this, and has been for 40 years since the game's inception back in the 1970s.
You want to make a change that will work?
Lighten the health of the trash mobs and add mobs in boss fights and on the way there so only ONE wizard is needed.
That's a pretty simple thing for a DM to do. That's the way the game is supposed to work. And yes even in the real game two wizards is overkill.
Sadly this won't work.
What would happen is stacking the class that is most efficient at clearing trash, for faster runs.
And that would be again CW+GWF.
What is needed is make the MMO triad of Heals/Tank/DPS REQUIRED.
Its always been on par and even better than any GWF in D&D since the game came out, this has been this way for 40 years or so. The GWF was a close combat AoE who could only do it when it was in range of his weapon. The Mage was tossing large area of effect fireballs that far outdamaged any melee class. The GWF could beat him in Single Target damage. And the rogue could EASILY beat his single target damage. Rogue backstabbing and combat advantage damage should far outstrip a mage's single target damage.
I'm not sure why you are citing D&D's long history and then listing the class breakdown like that. Up through 1st and at least early 2cd edition, there was no GWF, just a fighter who could wield both single and one handed weapons and there was no option of AOE attacks. Fighters did the best damage in early game but got only marginal gains as they leveled up. Magic Users started out almost completely worthless but grew into the the primary damage dealer in the party. Thieves did poor damage at all levels and backstabbing was a non combat move. They were included in party to disarm traps, open doors and because your friend wanted to play one. Clerics were solid at all levels, almost as good at melee and adding some useful heals and damage spells.
For a high level party, there was the mage and then there were his bodyguards. GMs who used tweaked rules for weapon specialization and dual wielding could see fighters that deal out impressive damage, but the Magic User was still king.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
Remember that this is an MMO game that happens to be based on AD&D. And in MMOs there is generally a semblance of class balance, which for PvE, at least, has been totally unbalanced with a single class being the best choice by far since Open Beta till now. Sure, PvP has its FOTM (Flavour of the Mod!), but there OP classes/specs have eventually been dealt with.
Simpler solution that Cryptic could actually implement:
Remove -Resistance (arp) from CON on GWF, give it to TRs based on Strength Stat. double the effectiveness of stat based arp from 1% per point over 10 to 2%.
increase mob resistance, 20% on minions up to 50% on bosses.
Now all CWs and GWFs have to stack darks in enchant slots, have a hard time hitting new arp cap in pve meaning a dmg reduction, and get only the stats given from gear for the rest of their offense (power, crit, etc) further reducing damage.
Not elegant, not perfect, simple as f#%k though to implement and a step in the right direction.
Interesting idea which would relative boost GF, TR and HR. However, it would really nerf GWFs while leaving CWs untouched, which could easily make the CW-centric issues in PvE WORSE.
As we are now getting separate PvP gear, anyway perhaps the following variant of your idea would work:
(1) Increase mob resistance, 20% on minions up to 50% on bosses.
(2) Give -Resistance (ArP) to TRs based on Strength Stat.
(3) Double the effectiveness of stat based ArP in from 1% per point over 10 to 2%.
(4) Reduce ArP stat on PvE gear GWF and CW by 50%. (Possibly somewhat more for GWF as they can get ArP from CON).
This would seem to be exactly what we need in PvE - boosting GF, TR and HRs, while reducing the effectiveness of CWs and GWFs as they would be forced to socket more ArP.
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
I'm not sure why you are citing D&D's long history and then listing the class breakdown like that. Up through 1st and at least early 2cd edition, there was no GWF, just a fighter who could wield both single and one handed weapons and there was no option of AOE attacks. Fighters did the best damage in early game but got only marginal gains as they leveled up. Magic Users started out almost completely worthless but grew into the the primary damage dealer in the party. Thieves did poor damage at all levels and backstabbing was a non combat move. They were included in party to disarm traps, open doors and because your friend wanted to play one. Clerics were solid at all levels, almost as good at melee and adding some useful heals and damage spells.
Well not really...
You are right about the Great Weapons Fighter, didn't actually even come along until 3rd Edition, its a later addition to the game.
The original D&D 1st edition was never really designed or balanced past 12th level nor were there many monsters past that level. Second Edition attempted to balance higher level play, but because of Forgotten Realms people wanted uber high level characters and up to 20th level where you started to see that.
It was 3rd edition with adding feats and flanking damage and attacks of opportunity that changed that and allowed fighters and rogues to be able to do those things. Because originally they were not.
In 1st Edition they did correct the fighter damage issue with Unearthed Arcana and Weapon specialization which did bring them up to par. But when 2nd Edition increase the actual played levels, it threw that all off again.
Rogues in 1st edition called Thief were trap detectors and stealth movers and lockpickers. The current Rogue class is actually a mix of the old 1st edition Assasin Class and the Thief Class into one package. So yes, the Assassin could instantly kill someone and used poisons which in the original game meant instant death... not damage.
it is quite easy to fix game just nerf eye of storm on spell storm cw and his single traget dps and then someone might take hr,tr in team good spell storm cw can still out dps gwf by far and in the same time bringing some 30% higher damage to rest of team and cc locking everything gwf is still to weak if u compare it to cw and this shows how broken op spell storm cw is
as gf it is not balanced as log as we wont need cw in team if have gf tank
Just to clarify, my entire post refers to the time period from Original D&D (small brown booklets) up to the point when 2cd was newly released. I quit playing AD&D (continued with BECM for a few years more) at that point due to general burn out and a dissatisfaction with a number of things. My point though is that this game has very little resemblance to the game of my youth. This isn't a criticism as that game had its own set of gross imbalances.
As far as the topic goes, the best and long term solution would be to fix the dungeons so that AOE wasn't all you needed. I'm not going to say that there's a 0% chance of that happening but the odds are rather slim. It's just hard to see how demand for a tank class can be generated when there isn't much to actually tank and GFs need BIS gear and/or a good cleric to actually stand up to a ton of mobs. It's hard to see how single target DPS is going to be necessary when you can just use Sing to pile everything on top of the CC immune stuff and burn it all there.
I have at least one of all the original classes and I would love for all of them to be desirable in dungeon parties. As I posted before, so much of this is driven by the idea that you have to clear the dungeons as fast as possible. That idea works for high geared parties and has spread down to parties which aren't going to get multiple runs in a DD and the amount of speed gain isn't really that important. I was in a party with TR in TOS last night. We had CW, a DC and two GWFs - neither of whom placed above me in paingiver - yet we finished the dungeon in less than an hour with no one in the party dying.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
Interesting idea which would relative boost GF, TR and HR. However, it would really nerf GWFs while leaving CWs untouched, which could easily make the CW-centric issues in PvE WORSE.
As we are now getting separate PvP gear, anyway perhaps the following variant of your idea would work:
(1) Increase mob resistance, 20% on minions up to 50% on bosses.
(2) Give -Resistance (ArP) to TRs based on Strength Stat.
(3) Double the effectiveness of stat based ArP in from 1% per point over 10 to 2%.
(4) Reduce ArP stat on PvE gear GWF and CW by 50%. (Possibly somewhat more for GWF as they can get ArP from CON).
This would seem to be exactly what we need in PvE - boosting GF, TR and HRs, while reducing the effectiveness of CWs and GWFs as they would be forced to socket more ArP.
That's also incorrect... That's not going to help you or change anything. OR boost Rogue, Guardian Fighter, or Rangers that is your misconception.
These dungeons are designed around AoE damage...
that's where your disconnect is.
Mass number of mobs flooding the party and overwhelming them. Two of those classes are single target damagers. Heck even Rangers are.
Reducing AoE damage in dungeons designed around AoE damage does NOT make single target damagers more welcome... it only gets them and the entire party killed or makes things much more difficult for everyone.
Single Target damagers are not boosted by reducing AoE damage, because AoE damage and what its used for entirely different purposes than single target damage. It would be more effective to reduce CW single target damage, that's the only thing that's going to boost single target damage classes and make them more welcome.
AoE damage and Single Target damage are use for two different purposes, and in entirely different situations. The reverse is also true boosting single target damage in an AoE damage situation does not fix anything...
It does not suddenly and mysteriously mean any of those classes are going to perform in shoes they are not designed to deal with.
TRANSLATION: Its not going to help you be more wanted...
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
edited March 2014
@silverquick, i probably dont understand what you mean there, but the proposal to get more resistance on mobs and elites,
for all practical purposes will reduce CW single target damage and also reduce the effectiveness of the most common boss tactic - dump everything on boss and AoE.
It's a quick and practical solution to balance the need for classes.
Btw, now that we have tenacity, perhaps TR can get the crit stacks back ?
Btw2 : what most amazess me is the IBS vs Lashing, how an encounter with the similar cooldown does twice, three times the damage (GWF) the single target DPS (TR) should have done ( no the technical why - that one i know perfectly. the design why )
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
@silverquick, i probably dont understand what you mean there, but the proposal to get more resistance on mobs and elites,
for all practical purposes will reduce CW single target damage and also reduce the effectiveness of the most common boss tactic - dump everything on boss and AoE.
It's a quick and practical solution to balance the need for classes.
Btw, now that we have tenacity, perhaps TR can get the crit stacks back ?
Btw2 : what most amazess me is the IBS vs Lashing, how an encounter with the similar cooldown does twice, three times the damage (GWF) the single target DPS (TR) should have done ( no the technical why - that one i know perfectly. the design why )
Alright... I will explain. But you have to accept these things, which I think you will.
1. These dungeons are designed around AoE encounters, mass numbers of mobs flooding the party.
2. Single target damagers are not effective I an AoE mob encounter situation and were not designed for it. AoE damagers are. Hence... why CW and GWF are very popular.
3. Single target situations are entirely different... like boss mobs and stronger elite type mobs, are where Single Target damagers thrive. (and tanks coincidently too as they are the only ones who can withstand that damage).
4. Reducing AoE damage in a situation where AoE encounters are the norm, will not boost single target damagers or make them more wanted. It just makes it more difficult for the rest of the party.
5. The dungeons in Neverwinter are primarily AoE encounters.
6. Single Target damage and AoE damage are used for different purposes and different TYPES of encounters. Reducing one will not make the other more effective.
Ergo... reducing CW AoE damage will not change anything or make Single Target damagers or Tanks more wanted or welcome as they are not designed to deal with that kind of situation. Nor will Boosting their damage change anything.
The encounter style here does not play to any Single Target damage.
You could reduce the CW single target damage spells so they are not more effective on a Boss mob... but reducing their AoE damage will not make any Single Target damager suddenly and mysteriously more welcome in a situation they are not and never were designed to deal with.
Worse, now the AoE encounters will be more difficult for the party as a whole.
Once one understands that Single Target damage and AoE damage are used for different purposes and different things. Its easy to see how they are unrelated, and reducing or increasing one, does not affect the other or the situations they're used in. In fact can even make the situation worse and cause more problems.
That's also incorrect... That's not going to help you or change anything. OR boost Rogue, Guardian Fighter, or Rangers that is your misconception.
These dungeons are designed around AoE damage...
that's where your disconnect is.
Mass number of mobs flooding the party and overwhelming them. Two of those classes are single target damagers. Heck even Rangers are.
Reducing AoE damage in dungeons designed around AoE damage does NOT make single target damagers more welcome... it only gets them and the entire party killed or makes things much more difficult for everyone.
Single Target damagers are not boosted by reducing AoE damage, because AoE damage and what its used for entirely different purposes than single target damage. It would be more effective to reduce CW single target damage, that's the only thing that's going to boost single target damage classes and make them more welcome.
AoE damage and Single Target damage are use for two different purposes, and in entirely different situations. The reverse is also true boosting single target damage in an AoE damage situation does not fix anything...
It does not suddenly and mysteriously mean any of those classes are going to perform in shoes they are not designed to deal with.
TRANSLATION: Its not going to help you be more wanted...
I can see you are going for the wall of text with random text emphasis style of argument. More seriously, I do get the points you are tying to make.
BUT:
First of all, everyone realises that dungeons are masses of mobs.
Everyone also realizes that the CW since Open Beta (and after module 2 GWF to a lesser extent) are rendering other classes irrelevant. This is tied in with the previous point obviously.
However almost everyone realises that the Devs are not going to suddenly re-balance mobs and remake dungeons in the foreseeable future, even if this is the best option. (And almost no-one disagree with this being the best option if there was a real chance it could be implemented.)
So we are left with relatively less-optimal solutions, but ones which could possibly be realistically implemented. And boosting the relative DPS of the TR, GF and HR is pretty much all that is left.
Hanging around NW_Legit_Community, where many outstanding players discuss the state of the game (and welcome/help new players too), it is clear that some classes are just not desirable for end-game content. Many players that originally had characters in those classes (myself included) have moved on to play other, more sought-after classes. Note: This is about PvE. I don't PvP enough to comment on that. I do have a level 60 character of each class.
Guardian Fighter
Who needs a GF when a GWF is just as durable and can do way more damage? Sure the GWF lacks AoE taunt, but if he's outputting that much damage and killing things that fast anyhow, the GF just isn't needed. It used to be that my GF got dusted off for FH whenever someone needed their T2 boots. Now, we just take a party of GWF's and CW's (not even a DC) and stack the adds on the boss. Sure, we're over-geared for FH. But my GF isn't going to get any invites to CN. The shiny new improvements to the GF due out tomorrow won't change that.
Trickster Rogue
"Anything you can do, I can do better! I can do anything better than you!", sung the Hunter Ranger. Sure a TR can shine for single-target DPS, but let's face it, the game in its current state is about overcoming hordes of adds. I see frequently in NW_Legit_Community posts like *lol* TR lfg any T2 *lol*, and many comments from former rogues that say they rolled a new character because they are never in demand.
Devoted Cleric
Not nearly as on-the-ropes as the GF or TR, and certainly needed for CN and VT (at least, by the vast majority of parties). However, an excellent team can do any T2 content plus MC without a DC. If you fill that DC's slot with another GWF or CW, the content goes much faster. With only 2 destinations, my DC rarely comes out to play.
Each of these classes is well thought out and fun to play. However, the GWF makes a better GF and the HR makes a better TR for most content. The CW in fact, does a lot more than control. They are usually the DPS leader by a wide margin in addition to controlling the hordes of adds.
I sincerely hope that with Module 3 onward, more attention will be paid to keeping these classes certainly not required, but at least useful and desirable to have in end-game content.
- Luminus the Devoted Cleric
Overheard during DD today:
[NW_Legit_Community] AAA@aaa: tr up for anything
[NW_Legit_Community] BBB@bbb: ****, i'm really fed up with being TR
[NW_Legit_Community] CCC@ccc: Pretend to be a gwf?
[NW_Legit_Community] DDD@ddd Stormfell@irk2013: Why?
[NW_Legit_Community] CCC@ccc: I hear they get groups all the time
Here is my thoughts. Were I a cw, in a party with two other cw's.. i wouldnt want 2 gwf's.. i would want 1 gf and 1 tr. we three cw's are dealing with every creature.. those things that can be controlled.. dont need touched by the gf and tr. The ones that cant be are the ones we need aggro taken from us, and burned down.
Something you people need to understand, is damage matters much less, than doing your job and what is needed for a party.
Here is a reason why tr's are often not liked. Say you get a tr in your party, and he avoids the bigger mobs to fight the weaker ones, which happens often, because they are afraid to die, in example, they make high aggro and no gf to keep it. Boom you have a worthless tr doing nothing for the party. kicked out.
2.. you have a tr that prefers to be stealthed all the time and not use his skills for damage.. but uses only stealth / stars to do minimal to one target... kicked out.
A good tr is always welcome in a party because of this reason.. however a good tr is about 1 in 50 of them right now.
as per gf's.. you have gf's that seem to think they need to target aggro all the weak creatures and big creatures, but ignore everything after that beause they are still trying to tab everything, worthlessly. They only need to tank those immune things. That is a problem that many gf's dont seem to comprehend. Also they do need SOME damage, or I am going to take aggro right from them, which is another aspect they dont seem to understand. It isnt all about defense, its all about getting and keeping aggro of the few things needed. They wont / cant do that? kick.
hr's... do I want them in party? no way in heck. good hr's are about 1 in 300 at the moment? odds are severely in your favor of not getting a good hr. You have instead, the kind that as soon as a monster is on screen or a pack of them they start pressing their at will, at lowest damage possible, and say whee look at me, im pressing a button! i r great! whee! my heart is pumping sooo fast wheee!
Yet instead of having all the creatures in a pack where avalanche/steal time/etc play their part, and entire party can do their part, this hr is actually making the dungeon take longer. kick.
These are things of the reasons they are not wanted.
A gwf? even a bad one can last a little bit... and with a few cw's.. we can make them last better and carry them, while at least they are doing spread damage that is somewhat decent, even if at most times we have to dodge and wiggle. that is the truth of things. Are there great gwf's? yes.. but most are just average, and at least being average can still handle themselves with the control provided.
Even then there are bad ones.. i once saw a gwf go to gather 2 encounters worth of creatures and died before he got to second pack.... then blame the party for not healing him. etc.
considering all the bad players in the game? gimme something i know is hard to play badly.. and i will mke sure things get done.
that is the sad truth of things.
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
First of all, everyone realises that dungeons are masses of mobs.
Everyone also realizes that the CW since Open Beta (and after module 2 GWF to a lesser extent) are rendering other classes irrelevant. This is tied in with the previous point obviously.
However almost everyone realises that the Devs are not going to suddenly re-balance mobs and remake dungeons in the foreseeable future, even if this is the best option. (And almost no-one disagree with this being the best option if there was a real chance it could be implemented.)
So we are left with relatively less-optimal solutions, but ones which could possibly be realistically implemented. And boosting the relative DPS of the TR, GF and HR is pretty much all that is left.
Alright... well if you're looking for a solution... why what it is you're talking about won't work.
1. These dungeons are designed around AoE encounters, mass numbers of mobs flooding the party.
2. Single target damagers are not effective in an AoE mob encounter situation and were not designed for it. AoE damagers are. Hence... why CW and GWF are very popular.
3. Single target situations are entirely different... like boss mobs and stronger elite type mobs, are where Single Target damagers thrive. (and tanks coincidently too as they are the only ones who can withstand that damage).
4. Reducing AoE damage in a situation where AoE encounters are the norm, will not boost single target damagers or make them more wanted. It just makes it more difficult for the rest of the party.
5. The dungeons in Neverwinter are primarily AoE encounters.
6. Single Target damage and AoE damage are used for different purposes and different TYPES of encounters. Reducing one will not make the other more effective.
Ergo... reducing CW AoE damage will not change anything or make Single Target damagers or Tanks more wanted or welcome as they are not designed to deal with that kind of situation. Nor will Boosting their damage change anything.
The encounter style here does not play to any Single Target damage.
Worse, now the AoE encounters will be more difficult for the party as a whole.
Once one understands that Single Target damage and AoE damage are used for different purposes and different things. Its easy to see how they are unrelated, and reducing or increasing one, does not affect the other or the situations they're used in. In fact can even make the situation worse and cause more problems
Alright... well if you're looking for a solution... why what it is you're talking about won't work.
Alright... I will explain. But you have to accept these things, which I think you will.
1. These dungeons are designed around AoE encounters, mass numbers of mobs flooding the party.
2. Single target damagers are not effective in an AoE mob encounter situation and were not designed for it. AoE damagers are. Hence... why CW and GWF are very popular.
3. Single target situations are entirely different... like boss mobs and stronger elite type mobs, are where Single Target damagers thrive. (and tanks coincidently too as they are the only ones who can withstand that damage).
4. Reducing AoE damage in a situation where AoE encounters are the norm, will not boost single target damagers or make them more wanted. It just makes it more difficult for the rest of the party.
5. The dungeons in Neverwinter are primarily AoE encounters.
6. Single Target damage and AoE damage are used for different purposes and different TYPES of encounters. Reducing one will not make the other more effective.
Ergo... reducing CW AoE damage will not change anything or make Single Target damagers or Tanks more wanted or welcome as they are not designed to deal with that kind of situation. Nor will Boosting their damage change anything.
The encounter style here does not play to any Single Target damage.
Worse, now the AoE encounters will be more difficult for the party as a whole.
Once one understands that Single Target damage and AoE damage are used for different purposes and different things. Its easy to see how they are unrelated, and reducing or increasing one, does not affect the other or the situations they're used in. In fact can even make the situation worse and cause more problems
Well I do agree with pretty much all of your points, but given that both the HR and GF can do decent AoE DPS, which I am suggesting boosting, I am not sure what the issue is? Fair enough, the TR may still be somewhat stuffed, but at least this is a start.
it is quite easy to fix game just nerf eye of storm on spell storm cw and his single traget dps and then someone might take hr,tr in team good spell storm cw can still out dps gwf by far and in the same time bringing some 30% higher damage to rest of team and cc locking everything gwf is still to weak if u compare it to cw and this shows how broken op spell storm cw is
as gf it is not balanced as log as we wont need cw in team if have gf tank
Like a lot of other people, you seem to be missing the point, at least in part. Eye of the Storm is a great class feature, and I would choose it on any Spellstorm mage, but it's not what causes imbalance. That would be more the nature of dungeons as giant trash pits combined with the nature of CWs to be efficient trash compactors. Decreasing CW DPS won't make classes that are currently perceived as underperforming actually perform any better. A series of adjustments and bug fixes that reduced CW damage potential, target caps, and AP gain actually created the current "meta" for 2-5 CW parties. Unless dungeon design is updated to make other classes more attractive, no meaningful improvements can be made.
Also, FYI, a PvE specced and geared GWF actually does competitive damage. Granted, it takes a PvE spec GWF to even slightly outdamage a hybrid PvE/PvP spec CW with comparable gear, but the overall gap is much smaller than most people think. It's just that good PvE GWFs are quite rare since most of them end up going Sentinel for PvP.
You actually just straight-up boot people for not playing the game the way you want? That's...quite an extreme response.
I'd recommend perhaps actually talking to them first, possibly suggesting strategies, explaining to them what you feel they're doing wrong and how it makes things more difficult for the party. Basically anything other than "you're not helping me faceroll! *boot*".
Once you've capped and got a decent set of T2/T2.5 stuff, most of the actual fun and challenge comes from
A) seeing if you can still complete a dungeon with a 'suboptimal' team, and helping teach people how to do harder dungeons
And this is more or less where the fundamental disconnect comes between "how the game is intended to be played" (which, to my mind, the legit channel is the closest to) and "absolute min/max grindfarm for meaningless profit".
Want to just complete as many dungeons as quickly as possible so you can flood the market with phat lootz so you can buy more stuff to help you faceroll more dungeons so you can GOTO 10? Stack CWs.
Honestly, that sounds like work to me, and I get enough of that at...well, at work.
Want to have fun? Grab a group of whatevers (TRs welcome, btw), do a dungeon.
Add to this, you'll learn a lot more about the strengths and weaknesses of every class if you mix it up a lot, and will probably become a better player. All you learn by stacking CWs is "holy <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, stacked CWs are so hilariously broken..."
Like a lot of other people, you seem to be missing the point, at least in part. Eye of the Storm is a great class feature, and I would choose it on any Spellstorm mage, but it's not what causes imbalance. That would be more the nature of dungeons as giant trash pits combined with the nature of CWs to be efficient trash compactors. Decreasing CW DPS won't make classes that are currently perceived as underperforming actually perform any better. A series of adjustments and bug fixes that reduced CW damage potential, target caps, and AP gain actually created the current "meta" for 2-5 CW parties. Unless dungeon design is updated to make other classes more attractive, no meaningful improvements can be made.
Also, FYI, a PvE specced and geared GWF actually does competitive damage. Granted, it takes a PvE spec GWF to even slightly outdamage a hybrid PvE/PvP spec CW with comparable gear, but the overall gap is much smaller than most people think. It's just that good PvE GWFs are quite rare since most of them end up going Sentinel for PvP.
Well the GWF went from a joke to (almost) competitive with a equally-geared CW for damage so I don't see any reason buffing the DPS of other classes shouldn't work as well especially as HR and GF have decent potential for AoE damage already. As I mentioned before, this might not help the TR, but it is still a huge improvement over the current situation.
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zekethesinnerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 805Arc User
edited March 2014
As an TR i can tell couple of things dev's can do with my class, first of all:
-like ppl have said, make disarm usefull, big traps in dungs which will kill everyone if not disarmed, optional dd chest, whitch can be only open after disarming trap around them ( why not?), let us make our own traps in certain places, for example to trap boss or spaming adds and give party a little break.
-Second one, incrase range of our aoe skills ( yes we have those, and even more then one), Wicked have ony 3m radius, make it at least 5-7... Dazzing dont have more than 5, but after like 3m its become weaker... why?? make it 7m radius too and let it hit more than 3 targets...
-Third: Make places in dungs, like islands with lava around, witch can be reached only with TR deft strike, or by opening ways by disarming skills, islands with levers, which opens ways to secrets bosses rooms or let players make fasters ways to final Bosses, f.e by let them avoid big adds spots...
Like a lot of other people, you seem to be missing the point, at least in part. Eye of the Storm is a great class feature, and I would choose it on any Spellstorm mage, but it's not what causes imbalance. That would be more the nature of dungeons as giant trash pits combined with the nature of CWs to be efficient trash compactors. Decreasing CW DPS won't make classes that are currently perceived as underperforming actually perform any better. A series of adjustments and bug fixes that reduced CW damage potential, target caps, and AP gain actually created the current "meta" for 2-5 CW parties. Unless dungeon design is updated to make other classes more attractive, no meaningful improvements can be made.
Also, FYI, a PvE specced and geared GWF actually does competitive damage. Granted, it takes a PvE spec GWF to even slightly outdamage a hybrid PvE/PvP spec CW with comparable gear, but the overall gap is much smaller than most people think. It's just that good PvE GWFs are quite rare since most of them end up going Sentinel for PvP.
Wot 'ee said, all of the above.
Also, only CWs with Perfect Vorpals seem to be able to outdo my GWF, with gear parity, I tend to outdo them. I spent some time making a high survivability, high damage PvE setup. It's not immortal in PvP, but I do OK, and in PvE, it seems to do ludicrous damage, able to solo hilariously large pulls safely without much backup.
However, no-one minds much, as the instance is done faster, and the CW is taking less damage, as all the mobs are stacked on my GWF for him to Space Potato to his heart's content. If the situation were reversed, and I was on my CW, I'd be happy too- and offer to actually slot Singularity for a change if that made things smoother and more fun. It should be about playing as a group, after all, and Them Synergies(tm).
However, all that aside, you are completely right. The instance design obviously lends itself to high DPS AoE classes as is. Taking a bunch of TRs just feels slow, bitty and poorly controlled in comparison, while each plinks away at a single target and tries not to lose their target in the chaos of a scattered pull. It's less fun and it looks like amateur hour.
I also avoid taking unknown and quite a few known GFs, as people seem to operate on bad assumptions from other games rather than the evidence of their senses- going RAWR I R TANKING TEH BOSS GIEV ME ASTRALS AND DEAL WITH ADDS U NOOBS. It's amazing how many people fail to notice that almost all bosses are big loot piñatas that need no tanking, and are fine, even if a CW has aggro. The dungeon design is weird, and people assume that the presence of the traditional MMO "holy trinity" means that this in some way informs mechanics.
Yes, so fixing all of this involves a massive reworking of the basic balance and mechanics of everything, and it really isn't going to happen. Meanwhile, nerfing the AoE of CW and GWF would just make groups feel like one of those gimped 4xHR Karrundax PUGs that I so assiduously avoid. Fewer mobs, hitting harder, and a need for actual tanking would work wonders- but it ain't gonna happen any time soon.
This also means that short of reworking all the PvE as above, I have no clue how to fix it- just what not to do. I'm really glad that it's not my problem to solve- I think the guys at Cryptic have painted themselves into a bit of a corner with this one.
Comments
First: Dungeon design is terrible from TR point of view!
- Loads of high-HP trash mobs on the way to boss. So it's natural that AoE dps and CC classes are wanted.
- Constant spawning of trash during the boss fight. So again, AoE is king even in boss fights.
- Mobs spamming AoE. Sometimes 85% of the central fight area is covered in red. CW/HR can CC/nuke from distance, DC can heal from distance, GWF/GF can facetank large part of AoE. Melee TR? Must stay close but can't facetank AoE and must dodge out of red. Sometimes I can't land a full duelist furry for half a minute because constant need of dodging.
- AoE does more damage than direct boss strike! 95% of my TRs deaths is not that I dpsed to much and boss aggroed to me, not that I failed rotation. It's one-shooting AoE rings dealing >20K damage. And yeah, best thing is to dodge one AoE ring just to land in another one or no not-red area is reachable by my dodge! Bam, one-shot!
- Again: AoE rings around bosses. So yeah, even if i'm in stealth i have to stop the rotation and dodge. And some bosses love to spam AoE rings around themselves.
- Traps. There are nearly no traps in dungeons. If they are present, they do not pose large threat. And a rogue can't disarm them in combat. So, pretty much his utility role is useless.
Second: Class roles and mechanics balances are terrible! -> Tank/DPS/Healer/CC role do not work at all
- If GWF makes nearly the same damge on single target but can AoE, has higher damage resistance from armor and has Unstoppable mechanics, why take TR?
- CW can be both controller and dps and in AoE version!
- If I'm not one-shooted by AoE and can go into stealth I can pop a potion and with moderate life steal I can rebuild full health really fast. So DC are nice to have, but not necessary. That's really bad.
- Since CW is so strong, GF is not required for tanking. And is instead asked for kitting! Kitting tank!
Third: PvP balance influencing PvE and vice versa.
- TRs were in the beginning insanely strong in PvP (single target damage specialists + stealth) -> nerf after nerf (next one incoming today, LOL!) -> become weak and unwanted in PvE
- GWFs weak in PvE -> buff after buff -> insanely strong in PvP, for PvP Iron Vanguard Sentinel the most OP class I have ever seen in any MMORPG
Solutions:
- Design future dungeons that they require more balanced party setup. Dead magic zones, 4-5 stronged trash mobs instead of 20, mobs with high resistance to specific type of damage (fire/ice/melee).
- Bosses one-shooting everyone but specialized tanks, less trash mobs spawned during boss fights -> give GF place for their primary role
- Make self-healing in dungeons harder, introduce second healer class -> make healers more desired!
- Makes certain class powers and skills work differently in PvP, so you no PvP<->PvE class balance issues
- Give DC ability to turn undead creatures!
- Give TR ability to disarm traps in combat/place his own ones. Make more objects/secrets in the dungeons requiring class skills (illusions which DC/CW can deal with, locked doors to optional boss which TR can open, walls GWF/GF can bash, optional bosses/shortcuts Ranger can "track", etc.)
- It is becoming clearer and clearer that balancing PvP and PvE at the same time is anywhere between "extremely hard" and "downright imposslbe". Considering the devs are still struggling with basic concepts such as "T1 isn't supossed to be better than T2", I'd say they do not stand a chance at succeeding.
- About tanking, aggro, etc, I think you are failing to put the issue clear when we say that tanks are hardly needed. Put in very simple words:
I CAN hold aggro.
I CAN take a good beating, unless the enemy starts chaining CCs that for some reason I can not block and still hit me if I move outside of the red circle. (Charti I am looking at you!).
So, that seems to mean I CAN tank. But guess what?
> 95% of mob attacks fall under one of these categories:
- Super-slow attacks that you can move out the way, and I merely block for the AP gain, but could just avoid, as could any other class in melee.
- AoE attacks that must be avoided by each person, and thus, my ability to tank them is irrelevant to team survival.
- Hits that are way too low to notice, and anyone can take without a problem.
Therefore, there is very, very little unavoidable damage for me to take instead of my mates. Wether I tank or not is irrelevant, and my main role is to debuff the enemy, and having it as nicely cluttered as possible, which CWs do better anyways.
Therefore, even if I tank, I either CAN'T or DO NOT NEED TO defend my team mates. Thus invalidating my position as a tank, and turning me into a debuff bot.
What people don't get is that CWs don't have to be nuked. The current BASE damage on most spell is fine, balanced, etc. The issue is high vizier + thaumaturge debuffs + greater plabuefire/terror/whatever (provided the tank or the cleric don't use that already, which is obviously more optimal to faceroll content even faster).
A few days ago I had a GWF buddy reporting 200k+ encounters and 130k non crit "IBS" (not sure about what it is, I don't play the class, all he told me is that it was per mob) when I was playing my cleric with high prophet, hallowed ground, linked spirit, divine glow. Of course in "normal" parties not using cookie cutter builds, the game is still challenging, there are wipes and leavers, so my suggestion is to work on what makes the game a faceroll for the high end parties without hurting the whole playerbase. That's extremely simple to understand and cannot hurt the casuals complaining about pirate king or cloak tower being too hard. There's some mathematical elegance in that solution and I really hope the devs are considering to do something. Design changes won't do much if they don't do that change.
Then we may see more renegade/Shadow weaver wizard and parties inviting tanks and clerics because they kinda need someone to deal with the damage NPCs do since the metagame should be less about pulling as much as you can until your soulforge procs before casting massive aoe debuffs and wiping the floor with aoes with no target caps, healing yourself for 50 to 100k with lifesteal while you're slauthering half of the dungeon in one pull.
This is pretty much right, although I would add that that the DC should be a healer / buffer / debuffer / moderate DPS (more or less what they can be now anyway), and that having the GF as designated 'kiter' just seems wrong. Having the 'tank' class running round in circles with all the adds staggering after him seems utterly incongruous....
Right now
GWF >> GF, TR
and
CW >>> GF, TR, HR.
which is absurd. There is very little reason after you get to a moderate GS to have any other class other than a CW (*), which is simply causing frustration amongst the rest of the player base. Sure GWFs might currently have close to CW's damage now, but CWs bring a hell of a lot more than pure damage to party.
(*) Yeah there is a niche role in an ideal setup for some correctly equipped classes to act as CW-buffers, but it is much easier and almost as fast just to stack another CW. And what about the HR and TR...
I shall bear that in mind the next time I am gathering and facetanking an entire room in VT or ToS on my GWF. It's all an illusion, and isn't really happening.
oh, you can dance in red zone, killing all enemies and become semi-immortal with an amazing life steal + unstoppable? Congratulations, you, me, and any gwf from right gear can do the same.
I'm talking about the innate ability to defend a party and not to make a kamikaze attack in an easy dungeon.
"- Give TR ability to disarm traps in combat/place his own ones. Make more objects/secrets in the dungeons requiring class skills (illusions which DC/CW can deal with, locked doors to optional boss which TR can open, walls GWF/GF can bash, optional bosses/shortcuts Ranger can "track", etc.) "
this is vital, vital, vital to the game. requires that there are challenges that are independent of its ability to damage.
I would add randown puzzels.
Such an ability, as I have pointed out earlier, does not exist, except by CC.
It's not entirely clear what you're talking about, and it's possible that you're shaky on it too. The ability to enter a room ahead of your party, pull all the mobs, group them on you, and whack them with a sword until they die, with very little damage on the party is close enough to tanking for me, as it was in the various other MMOs in which I have tanked. However, thank you so much for playing, I hope your class becomes in some way relevant again in future.
This is pretty much incorrect,
In D&D the CW is supposed to be the best AoE DPS, that's what a Wizard does. They also have good crowd control. That's what the entire class was designed to do.
Large area fireballs and charm/mez, stuns, and freezes. Lightning Bolts and Meteor Swarms.
And for the record, CWs in this game have not had any damage changes, they've always had this kind of AoE damage. But prior to Control Powers being nerfed, that was a more viable path. Causing the Mages to turn to their AoE powers instead.
Its always been on par and even better than any GWF in D&D since the game came out, this has been this way for 40 years or so. The GWF was a close combat AoE who could only do it when it was in range of his weapon. The Mage was tossing large area of effect fireballs that far outdamaged any melee class. The GWF could beat him in Single Target damage. And the rogue could EASILY beat his single target damage. Rogue backstabbing and combat advantage damage should far outstrip a mage's single target damage.
That is how the game should work.
And then you have CW-only groups going to dungeons as we've seen so far, with any other class left out. GWFs right now are the only exception cause they can keep up with the monster AoE damage of CWs, thanks to deep gash.
You either HEAVILY change dungeons design, or you change the class the way i've described. D&D or not. Cause right now, and for at least 7-8 months, this way it does not work.
With current class design and dungeon design, CWs are as OP in PvE as the iron vanguard sentinel GWFs are in PvP. Plain and simple.
They can nuke to dust the entire dungeon while keeping all the mobs under cc.
And they can handle bosses too if needed.
This is NOT how the game should work.
Well that's really the problem there,
When you design your dungeons to the strengths of one class, that's what's going to happen. The Wizard was designed to do just that. The entire class in D&D is all about this type of dungeon.
But its deeper than that in the actual dungeon design. Why does it take two Wizards to do the job one Wizard and his fireballs are supposed to be doing?
Its because they overdid the health of the adds/trash mobs in the dungeons. Ergo... people want tons of CWs because the entire class was designed to do this, and has been for 40 years since the game's inception back in the 1970s.
You want to make a change that will work?
Lighten the health of the trash mobs and add mobs in boss fights and on the way there so only ONE wizard is needed.
That's a pretty simple thing for a DM to do. That's the way the game is supposed to work. And yes even in the real game D&D two wizards is overkill.
All of this is (partially) possible because of extremely bad dungeon design, as it was pretty much detailed in many posts.
Nerfing 2 classes is just stopping the illness for a bit, because the foolish dungeon design remains.
If you wanna fix the issue (i.e. not all classes being desired in PvE), then go and take out the root of the issue - dungeon design.
Good dungeon design requiring Tank+Heals+DPS is the basis of many classic&successful MMOs and RPGs.
Should be SIMPLE to apply, yet for some reason, it seems to be a challenge to Cryptic developers.
Sadly this won't work.
What would happen is stacking the class that is most efficient at clearing trash, for faster runs.
And that would be again CW+GWF.
What is needed is make the MMO triad of Heals/Tank/DPS REQUIRED.
For a high level party, there was the mage and then there were his bodyguards. GMs who used tweaked rules for weapon specialization and dual wielding could see fighters that deal out impressive damage, but the Magic User was still king.
Interesting idea which would relative boost GF, TR and HR. However, it would really nerf GWFs while leaving CWs untouched, which could easily make the CW-centric issues in PvE WORSE.
As we are now getting separate PvP gear, anyway perhaps the following variant of your idea would work:
(1) Increase mob resistance, 20% on minions up to 50% on bosses.
(2) Give -Resistance (ArP) to TRs based on Strength Stat.
(3) Double the effectiveness of stat based ArP in from 1% per point over 10 to 2%.
(4) Reduce ArP stat on PvE gear GWF and CW by 50%. (Possibly somewhat more for GWF as they can get ArP from CON).
This would seem to be exactly what we need in PvE - boosting GF, TR and HRs, while reducing the effectiveness of CWs and GWFs as they would be forced to socket more ArP.
Well not really...
You are right about the Great Weapons Fighter, didn't actually even come along until 3rd Edition, its a later addition to the game.
The original D&D 1st edition was never really designed or balanced past 12th level nor were there many monsters past that level. Second Edition attempted to balance higher level play, but because of Forgotten Realms people wanted uber high level characters and up to 20th level where you started to see that.
It was 3rd edition with adding feats and flanking damage and attacks of opportunity that changed that and allowed fighters and rogues to be able to do those things. Because originally they were not.
In 1st Edition they did correct the fighter damage issue with Unearthed Arcana and Weapon specialization which did bring them up to par. But when 2nd Edition increase the actual played levels, it threw that all off again.
Rogues in 1st edition called Thief were trap detectors and stealth movers and lockpickers. The current Rogue class is actually a mix of the old 1st edition Assasin Class and the Thief Class into one package. So yes, the Assassin could instantly kill someone and used poisons which in the original game meant instant death... not damage.
as gf it is not balanced as log as we wont need cw in team if have gf tank
As far as the topic goes, the best and long term solution would be to fix the dungeons so that AOE wasn't all you needed. I'm not going to say that there's a 0% chance of that happening but the odds are rather slim. It's just hard to see how demand for a tank class can be generated when there isn't much to actually tank and GFs need BIS gear and/or a good cleric to actually stand up to a ton of mobs. It's hard to see how single target DPS is going to be necessary when you can just use Sing to pile everything on top of the CC immune stuff and burn it all there.
I have at least one of all the original classes and I would love for all of them to be desirable in dungeon parties. As I posted before, so much of this is driven by the idea that you have to clear the dungeons as fast as possible. That idea works for high geared parties and has spread down to parties which aren't going to get multiple runs in a DD and the amount of speed gain isn't really that important. I was in a party with TR in TOS last night. We had CW, a DC and two GWFs - neither of whom placed above me in paingiver - yet we finished the dungeon in less than an hour with no one in the party dying.
That's also incorrect... That's not going to help you or change anything. OR boost Rogue, Guardian Fighter, or Rangers that is your misconception.
These dungeons are designed around AoE damage...
that's where your disconnect is.
Mass number of mobs flooding the party and overwhelming them. Two of those classes are single target damagers. Heck even Rangers are.
Reducing AoE damage in dungeons designed around AoE damage does NOT make single target damagers more welcome... it only gets them and the entire party killed or makes things much more difficult for everyone.
Single Target damagers are not boosted by reducing AoE damage, because AoE damage and what its used for entirely different purposes than single target damage. It would be more effective to reduce CW single target damage, that's the only thing that's going to boost single target damage classes and make them more welcome.
AoE damage and Single Target damage are use for two different purposes, and in entirely different situations. The reverse is also true boosting single target damage in an AoE damage situation does not fix anything...
It does not suddenly and mysteriously mean any of those classes are going to perform in shoes they are not designed to deal with.
TRANSLATION: Its not going to help you be more wanted...
for all practical purposes will reduce CW single target damage and also reduce the effectiveness of the most common boss tactic - dump everything on boss and AoE.
It's a quick and practical solution to balance the need for classes.
Btw, now that we have tenacity, perhaps TR can get the crit stacks back ?
Btw2 : what most amazess me is the IBS vs Lashing, how an encounter with the similar cooldown does twice, three times the damage (GWF) the single target DPS (TR) should have done ( no the technical why - that one i know perfectly. the design why )
Alright... I will explain. But you have to accept these things, which I think you will.
1. These dungeons are designed around AoE encounters, mass numbers of mobs flooding the party.
2. Single target damagers are not effective I an AoE mob encounter situation and were not designed for it. AoE damagers are. Hence... why CW and GWF are very popular.
3. Single target situations are entirely different... like boss mobs and stronger elite type mobs, are where Single Target damagers thrive. (and tanks coincidently too as they are the only ones who can withstand that damage).
4. Reducing AoE damage in a situation where AoE encounters are the norm, will not boost single target damagers or make them more wanted. It just makes it more difficult for the rest of the party.
5. The dungeons in Neverwinter are primarily AoE encounters.
6. Single Target damage and AoE damage are used for different purposes and different TYPES of encounters. Reducing one will not make the other more effective.
Ergo... reducing CW AoE damage will not change anything or make Single Target damagers or Tanks more wanted or welcome as they are not designed to deal with that kind of situation. Nor will Boosting their damage change anything.
The encounter style here does not play to any Single Target damage.
You could reduce the CW single target damage spells so they are not more effective on a Boss mob... but reducing their AoE damage will not make any Single Target damager suddenly and mysteriously more welcome in a situation they are not and never were designed to deal with.
Worse, now the AoE encounters will be more difficult for the party as a whole.
Once one understands that Single Target damage and AoE damage are used for different purposes and different things. Its easy to see how they are unrelated, and reducing or increasing one, does not affect the other or the situations they're used in. In fact can even make the situation worse and cause more problems.
I can see you are going for the wall of text with random text emphasis style of argument. More seriously, I do get the points you are tying to make.
BUT:
First of all, everyone realises that dungeons are masses of mobs.
Everyone also realizes that the CW since Open Beta (and after module 2 GWF to a lesser extent) are rendering other classes irrelevant. This is tied in with the previous point obviously.
However almost everyone realises that the Devs are not going to suddenly re-balance mobs and remake dungeons in the foreseeable future, even if this is the best option. (And almost no-one disagree with this being the best option if there was a real chance it could be implemented.)
So we are left with relatively less-optimal solutions, but ones which could possibly be realistically implemented. And boosting the relative DPS of the TR, GF and HR is pretty much all that is left.
Here is my thoughts. Were I a cw, in a party with two other cw's.. i wouldnt want 2 gwf's.. i would want 1 gf and 1 tr. we three cw's are dealing with every creature.. those things that can be controlled.. dont need touched by the gf and tr. The ones that cant be are the ones we need aggro taken from us, and burned down.
Something you people need to understand, is damage matters much less, than doing your job and what is needed for a party.
Here is a reason why tr's are often not liked. Say you get a tr in your party, and he avoids the bigger mobs to fight the weaker ones, which happens often, because they are afraid to die, in example, they make high aggro and no gf to keep it. Boom you have a worthless tr doing nothing for the party. kicked out.
2.. you have a tr that prefers to be stealthed all the time and not use his skills for damage.. but uses only stealth / stars to do minimal to one target... kicked out.
A good tr is always welcome in a party because of this reason.. however a good tr is about 1 in 50 of them right now.
as per gf's.. you have gf's that seem to think they need to target aggro all the weak creatures and big creatures, but ignore everything after that beause they are still trying to tab everything, worthlessly. They only need to tank those immune things. That is a problem that many gf's dont seem to comprehend. Also they do need SOME damage, or I am going to take aggro right from them, which is another aspect they dont seem to understand. It isnt all about defense, its all about getting and keeping aggro of the few things needed. They wont / cant do that? kick.
hr's... do I want them in party? no way in heck. good hr's are about 1 in 300 at the moment? odds are severely in your favor of not getting a good hr. You have instead, the kind that as soon as a monster is on screen or a pack of them they start pressing their at will, at lowest damage possible, and say whee look at me, im pressing a button! i r great! whee! my heart is pumping sooo fast wheee!
Yet instead of having all the creatures in a pack where avalanche/steal time/etc play their part, and entire party can do their part, this hr is actually making the dungeon take longer. kick.
These are things of the reasons they are not wanted.
A gwf? even a bad one can last a little bit... and with a few cw's.. we can make them last better and carry them, while at least they are doing spread damage that is somewhat decent, even if at most times we have to dodge and wiggle. that is the truth of things. Are there great gwf's? yes.. but most are just average, and at least being average can still handle themselves with the control provided.
Even then there are bad ones.. i once saw a gwf go to gather 2 encounters worth of creatures and died before he got to second pack.... then blame the party for not healing him. etc.
considering all the bad players in the game? gimme something i know is hard to play badly.. and i will mke sure things get done.
that is the sad truth of things.
Alright... well if you're looking for a solution... why what it is you're talking about won't work.
1. These dungeons are designed around AoE encounters, mass numbers of mobs flooding the party.
2. Single target damagers are not effective in an AoE mob encounter situation and were not designed for it. AoE damagers are. Hence... why CW and GWF are very popular.
3. Single target situations are entirely different... like boss mobs and stronger elite type mobs, are where Single Target damagers thrive. (and tanks coincidently too as they are the only ones who can withstand that damage).
4. Reducing AoE damage in a situation where AoE encounters are the norm, will not boost single target damagers or make them more wanted. It just makes it more difficult for the rest of the party.
5. The dungeons in Neverwinter are primarily AoE encounters.
6. Single Target damage and AoE damage are used for different purposes and different TYPES of encounters. Reducing one will not make the other more effective.
Ergo... reducing CW AoE damage will not change anything or make Single Target damagers or Tanks more wanted or welcome as they are not designed to deal with that kind of situation. Nor will Boosting their damage change anything.
The encounter style here does not play to any Single Target damage.
Worse, now the AoE encounters will be more difficult for the party as a whole.
Once one understands that Single Target damage and AoE damage are used for different purposes and different things. Its easy to see how they are unrelated, and reducing or increasing one, does not affect the other or the situations they're used in. In fact can even make the situation worse and cause more problems
Well I do agree with pretty much all of your points, but given that both the HR and GF can do decent AoE DPS, which I am suggesting boosting, I am not sure what the issue is? Fair enough, the TR may still be somewhat stuffed, but at least this is a start.
Like a lot of other people, you seem to be missing the point, at least in part. Eye of the Storm is a great class feature, and I would choose it on any Spellstorm mage, but it's not what causes imbalance. That would be more the nature of dungeons as giant trash pits combined with the nature of CWs to be efficient trash compactors. Decreasing CW DPS won't make classes that are currently perceived as underperforming actually perform any better. A series of adjustments and bug fixes that reduced CW damage potential, target caps, and AP gain actually created the current "meta" for 2-5 CW parties. Unless dungeon design is updated to make other classes more attractive, no meaningful improvements can be made.
Also, FYI, a PvE specced and geared GWF actually does competitive damage. Granted, it takes a PvE spec GWF to even slightly outdamage a hybrid PvE/PvP spec CW with comparable gear, but the overall gap is much smaller than most people think. It's just that good PvE GWFs are quite rare since most of them end up going Sentinel for PvP.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
Wow.
You actually just straight-up boot people for not playing the game the way you want? That's...quite an extreme response.
I'd recommend perhaps actually talking to them first, possibly suggesting strategies, explaining to them what you feel they're doing wrong and how it makes things more difficult for the party. Basically anything other than "you're not helping me faceroll! *boot*".
Once you've capped and got a decent set of T2/T2.5 stuff, most of the actual fun and challenge comes from
A) seeing if you can still complete a dungeon with a 'suboptimal' team, and
And this is more or less where the fundamental disconnect comes between "how the game is intended to be played" (which, to my mind, the legit channel is the closest to) and "absolute min/max grindfarm for meaningless profit".
Want to just complete as many dungeons as quickly as possible so you can flood the market with phat lootz so you can buy more stuff to help you faceroll more dungeons so you can GOTO 10? Stack CWs.
Honestly, that sounds like work to me, and I get enough of that at...well, at work.
Want to have fun? Grab a group of whatevers (TRs welcome, btw), do a dungeon.
Add to this, you'll learn a lot more about the strengths and weaknesses of every class if you mix it up a lot, and will probably become a better player. All you learn by stacking CWs is "holy <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, stacked CWs are so hilariously broken..."
Well the GWF went from a joke to (almost) competitive with a equally-geared CW for damage so I don't see any reason buffing the DPS of other classes shouldn't work as well especially as HR and GF have decent potential for AoE damage already. As I mentioned before, this might not help the TR, but it is still a huge improvement over the current situation.
-like ppl have said, make disarm usefull, big traps in dungs which will kill everyone if not disarmed, optional dd chest, whitch can be only open after disarming trap around them ( why not?), let us make our own traps in certain places, for example to trap boss or spaming adds and give party a little break.
-Second one, incrase range of our aoe skills ( yes we have those, and even more then one), Wicked have ony 3m radius, make it at least 5-7... Dazzing dont have more than 5, but after like 3m its become weaker... why?? make it 7m radius too and let it hit more than 3 targets...
-Third: Make places in dungs, like islands with lava around, witch can be reached only with TR deft strike, or by opening ways by disarming skills, islands with levers, which opens ways to secrets bosses rooms or let players make fasters ways to final Bosses, f.e by let them avoid big adds spots...
Make us usefull...
Wot 'ee said, all of the above.
Also, only CWs with Perfect Vorpals seem to be able to outdo my GWF, with gear parity, I tend to outdo them. I spent some time making a high survivability, high damage PvE setup. It's not immortal in PvP, but I do OK, and in PvE, it seems to do ludicrous damage, able to solo hilariously large pulls safely without much backup.
However, no-one minds much, as the instance is done faster, and the CW is taking less damage, as all the mobs are stacked on my GWF for him to Space Potato to his heart's content. If the situation were reversed, and I was on my CW, I'd be happy too- and offer to actually slot Singularity for a change if that made things smoother and more fun. It should be about playing as a group, after all, and Them Synergies(tm).
However, all that aside, you are completely right. The instance design obviously lends itself to high DPS AoE classes as is. Taking a bunch of TRs just feels slow, bitty and poorly controlled in comparison, while each plinks away at a single target and tries not to lose their target in the chaos of a scattered pull. It's less fun and it looks like amateur hour.
I also avoid taking unknown and quite a few known GFs, as people seem to operate on bad assumptions from other games rather than the evidence of their senses- going RAWR I R TANKING TEH BOSS GIEV ME ASTRALS AND DEAL WITH ADDS U NOOBS. It's amazing how many people fail to notice that almost all bosses are big loot piñatas that need no tanking, and are fine, even if a CW has aggro. The dungeon design is weird, and people assume that the presence of the traditional MMO "holy trinity" means that this in some way informs mechanics.
Yes, so fixing all of this involves a massive reworking of the basic balance and mechanics of everything, and it really isn't going to happen. Meanwhile, nerfing the AoE of CW and GWF would just make groups feel like one of those gimped 4xHR Karrundax PUGs that I so assiduously avoid. Fewer mobs, hitting harder, and a need for actual tanking would work wonders- but it ain't gonna happen any time soon.
This also means that short of reworking all the PvE as above, I have no clue how to fix it- just what not to do. I'm really glad that it's not my problem to solve- I think the guys at Cryptic have painted themselves into a bit of a corner with this one.