thank you for your early and detailed reply. My main goal was to show the utility of the GF class in this game, but all I can get from the community are responses about the superiority of CWs compared with GFs. If I have to summarize the main points of your comments, you claim that GFs are not good at taking aggro, they do not make much damage, they do not buff enough like other classes. Here, I wanted to debate the fact that GFs are a good class for end-game experiences, but you all seem to "appreciate" much more the "utility" of CWs. In light of these facts, I decided to do not post anymore on this thread because there are too many comments about CWs (and GWFs) rather than focus on GFs. The title of this thread should have been "CWs the best front line class of the game", because no one seems to care about any other class rather than CWs (maybe Gwfs). In conclusion, I got that GFs, rangers, TRs are not needed in any party; DCs are sometimes still helpful. CWs rock and GWFs are good. Nothing else to add. Enjoy the game!
That is correct damanhur89. They have to nerf cw and gwf damage by about 50% for the other classes to be on the same level. Trying to play HR, GF, and TR right now is just going to lead to frustration at end game.
P.S. I have a GF and use him for PvP lolz, that's his best spot right now.
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chaoscourtesanMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2014
Damanhur-
Just want to say that I stand in agreement with most of your stances in this discussion.
I do feel that the GF could stand massive improvement. One of those improvements being move speed, just so the GF can get into the melee and grab aggro before the suicide squads rush in.
You basically have two types of people saying 'useless.' People who are severely max or overpowered by gear and such, and tend to run with others of similar nature, who have often become bored and want to rush through all to get to next (nothing wrong with that, but it colors opinion.) The other main body is made mostly of people who are relatively inexperienced and/or have had the misfortune of unpleasant experience with others. (Just my opinion, please hold your fire!)
Being in a guild with active players who enjoy the game for the sake of playing it, (as opposed to being a little jaded and wanting to lolz through everything, again each his own..) I have absolutely no issues getting t2(+) runs for my GF, and my mates often ask for a tank, (any tank, any class built as such.)
I get the main point of your post which is that GF needs some improvement, and that eliminating the class is not a proper option. I think some people (not most, some,) missed that.
That's all I have to say, I find it all rather obvious and needless of discussion, although I did pick up some interesting bits through the discourse. We all know the devs are entirely aware of the situation. I don't know, but I -think- they are having difficulty finding a way to make the GF more appealing in PvE without making it OP in PvP, or turning it into another GWF.
Rhyon Cawdorian GWF | Opa Loka TR | Cormac Argentus III DC | Annika Thornblade GF | Aerys Skydark HR | Bartin Findlor TR | Aellia Baalthrall CW | Lucan Hawkmoon CW | Opa Brahk GWF | Korzbyrk DC | Den Kruk GWF | Jherek Skarsin CW |
Roland Mac Sheonin GF | Tarron Direheart SW |
We all know the devs are entirely aware of the situation. I don't know, but I -think- they are having difficulty finding a way to make the GF more appealing in PvE without making it OP in PvP, or turning it into another GWF.
They don't know ****. I've been posting on preview for a long time about the problems and the solutions for gf imbalance, and they just delete my threads and not even have the decency to send them to the lower depths for posterity. I'll tell you right now, no amount of buffs will make gf viable. The only way for gf, tr, and hr, to be good at end game content, they have to fix deep gash for gwf and greatly reduce CW damage and cc potential, or at least separate the high dps and high cc components of cw abilities from each other.
Then, about the animations, I really liked the detailed example you gave me, though I flt you portrayed a catastrophic (melodramatic) scenario. Therefore, I am still convinced that GF's animations are not too slow when compared with the animations of other classes. Let me provide you some other examples. In PvE, all that matter for me is timing with the other classes' encounter powers. Animations might be a bit longer than other classes, but this fact does not decrease my ability as a "fast moving" GF on the battlefiled.
the problem is that lifesteal daily and villains menace is reactive abilities - you use to react to smth - either red circle or being low on hp, for that the animation is WAAAAAY too slow, specially if u live outside of NA and have 150+ ping, on top of that switching from block attacking to normal at wills is clunky, other skills might be fine, though some animation locks should be removed
about mobile gf i agree, since lunge is on short cd and IV get rush while swordmasters are immune to damage for half of the fight
the biggest problem i have with gf is overlapping cc from mobs, since you have to keep your shield up for far too long, you cant activate villains menace since it takes like 2hours 23 minutes to finish that stupid and useless animation. even unstoppable animation is often cancelled and that is much shorter than VM, while tr can dodge or ItC and gwf generally dont give a f... with unstoppable being up 70% of the fight and having sprint on top of it
gf lacks the feel of being useful since u are a buff *****
i dont mind having decent+ gfs in party, but i wont be playing mine til they they do smth with it
Might be worth clarifying that by "end game content" you really mean "end game content at maximal efficiency".
CW stacking isn't something people do because it's necessary, it's something they do because it makes all content much, much faster (and often facerollingly easy). What chaoscourtesan says about running with friends & guildies because you're ultimately playing a game (for fun, hopefully, unless you're a chinese goldfarmer locked in a basement) is totally true. If your objective is to simply farm as much content as fast as possible DON'T STOP TO LOOT THAT NODE U NUB OMG WTF, then yeah: stack CWs and stick a GWF in there.
If your objective is to team up with friends and kill some monsters, then it's less problematic.
If anything, the major problem is the game so heavily encourages the former approach.
Totally agree, I mean you want to Villains Menace but you put your arm in the air lift your leg like your gonna <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and wait.......... During which you usually are cced, prone, interrupted. Also why can't we use an encounter / Daily while in the guard? I have to lower my guard just to use another ability other than at wills? The GF is completely locked all the time from moving or reacting!
the problem is that lifesteal daily and villains menace is reactive abilities - you use to react to smth - either red circle or being low on hp, for that the animation is WAAAAAY too slow, specially if u live outside of NA and have 150+ ping, on top of that switching from block attacking to normal at wills is clunky, other skills might be fine, though some animation locks should be removed
about mobile gf i agree, since lunge is on short cd and IV get rush while swordmasters are immune to damage for half of the fight
the biggest problem i have with gf is overlapping cc from mobs, since you have to keep your shield up for far too long, you cant activate villains menace since it takes like 2hours 23 minutes to finish that stupid and useless animation. even unstoppable animation is often cancelled and that is much shorter than VM, while tr can dodge or ItC and gwf generally dont give a f... with unstoppable being up 70% of the fight and having sprint on top of it
gf lacks the feel of being useful since u are a buff *****
i dont mind having decent+ gfs in party, but i wont be playing mine til they they do smth with it
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
first off damanhur relax they'll never abolish any class even the GF second yes where in last spot in matter of effectiveness but remember than pre-module 2 Gwf's where in our spot let them shine for a bit things will even out eventually. Lastly the game isnt that hard to begin with so any of party formation is possible theres even room for gf's!!!! will it be 9-12 minutes longer yes but who cares donjon farming isnt even one of the top 5 ways to make ad in this game.
ohhhhhh almost forgot!!! if you want to have crazy funzzzz with a gf check out my boy's todafelles iron maiden Guardian fighter guide trust me youll never stop playing a gf
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dissssppppMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 24Arc User
edited February 2014
Made a CW 6 days ago, and got him up to 60 w/ 10K gear score. Nearly everything is superior to my 18.2k GF; crowd control, DPS, survivability, fast animations, mobility, and fun. There isn't a single redeeming thing I can find with my GF (that I've invested over $5mil. AD gearing) compared to my 10k CW. I've spend under 200k to gear him (other than taking the greater plague and soulforge enchantments from my GF). I can even "tank" bosses better than my GF, because all I need to do is dodge rather than block and be completely locked into the animation for 3-4 seconds.
As good as I was at my GF, the difference is insane between the 2 classes. It's actually a complete joke. At this point, they would need to make the GF completely OP or absolutely needed for me to even consider playing it again. Not getting constantly knocked down or stunned when I use an ability is such a fun feeling.
Made a CW 6 days ago, and got him up to 60 w/ 10K gear score. Nearly everything is superior to my 18.2k GF; crowd control, DPS, survivability, fast animations, mobility, and fun. There isn't a single redeeming thing I can find with my GF (that I've invested over $5mil. AD gearing) compared to my 10k CW. I've spend under 200k to gear him (other than taking the greater plague and soulforge enchantments from my GF). I can even "tank" bosses better than my GF, because all I need to do is dodge rather than block and be completely locked into the animation for 3-4 seconds.
As good as I was at my GF, the difference is insane between the 2 classes. It's actually a complete joke. At this point, they would need to make the GF completely OP or absolutely needed for me to even consider playing it again. Not getting constantly knocked down or stunned when I use an ability is such a fun feeling.
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
You know what, I'm gonna give the GF's some love when I play now and form groups with no GWF's. Look for me online you GF's I'll be needing some to crush some end game content!
Made a CW 6 days ago, and got him up to 60 w/ 10K gear score. Nearly everything is superior to my 18.2k GF; crowd control, DPS, survivability, fast animations, mobility, and fun. There isn't a single redeeming thing I can find with my GF (that I've invested over $5mil. AD gearing) compared to my 10k CW. I've spend under 200k to gear him (other than taking the greater plague and soulforge enchantments from my GF). I can even "tank" bosses better than my GF, because all I need to do is dodge rather than block and be completely locked into the animation for 3-4 seconds.
As good as I was at my GF, the difference is insane between the 2 classes. It's actually a complete joke. At this point, they would need to make the GF completely OP or absolutely needed for me to even consider playing it again. Not getting constantly knocked down or stunned when I use an ability is such a fun feeling.
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
You know what, I'm gonna give the GF's some love when I play now and form groups with no GWF's. Look for me online you GF's I'll be needing some to crush some end game content!
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
dont listen to veramis he has a bug up his *** like 100% of the time.
he says the same stuff about all the classes he doesnt like.
Is that supposed to be some kind of rational argument in your mind?
People should listen to me because what I'm saying is factual, and they would be much happier not playing inferior classes that are just AD blackholes.
inferior lol theres that word again probably your favorite. nien nien nien do not play zis class because i am CW and thusly superior!!!!!
they are all good at what they do!
Most dungeon teams have 2-4 cw's, and even 2 cw cn's are quite uncommon. It's not just me who thinks CW is the strongest class in the game, it is the opinion of the vast majority of players who have reached end game content, which you have admitted you have never done.
The classes in this game are not all good at what they supposedly do. A GF has much worse tankability than a DC, and worse threat generation than a DPS GWF or CW. A TR does less single target DPS than properly built single target DPS GWF and CW. A HR does less AoE DPS than CW and GWF.
Keep on making unsubstantiated claims about the supposed balance in this game and engaging in ad hominem attacks against me, I find your hypocrisy to be very amusing.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
first off damanhur relax they'll never abolish any class even the GF
This is very true. All the people posting stuff like "might as well just delete the class" are basically being snarky out of their frustration. They don't really mean it, only that they don't see a lot of point in playing one the way things are right now.
Now, I literally play every class. I've taken advantage of the current disfavour of the GF to snag cheap gear for mine because I'm one of those opportunistic optimists who figures that everything comes around. I'm interested to see what will happen when some of the proposed changes currently piggybacking on the pvp testing are ready to go live.
Apropos of nothing, I ran the orc CTA once with this GF because I needed it for the achievement and managed to come in third in the Paingiver chart, ahead of both a CW and an HR. Both of them were mid-level, but I was under the impression that damage-scaling in these CTAs made it very easy for lowbies to seemingly out-DPS 60s, so it was a bit of a weird moment. Eyes of Gruumsh can be pretty annoying, but their prones are pretty much the only thing a Tactician GF *needs* to block in there. Even an ogre knockback can be eaten if it's tactically better at that exact moment to not raise the shield.
I see a lot of complaints about how easily guard breaks, and maybe it's just my preferred playstyle, but it's interesting that there's an entire GF path that revolves around not-blocking.
ugh veramis you are always so blinded by pain giver you forget why those numbers are so, for instance the cw has highest dps because it hits the most enemies with the most attacks which is also powered up by other players debuffs just because you can run with 4 cws doesnt mean you have to.
GF is an excellent team mate just like the hr, the gwf, and the DC; you only see one class when you should be seeing them all.
im not attacking you just your terrible view points its not about dps 100% of the time if the cap on GS req ever goes up much higher than now its not gonna matter that there are 4 cw 10.5k is an easy gs to beat when at 14-18k
this class will be around quite a while im sure too and agree beckylunatic I love the GF i even started another just last night.
ugh veramis you are always so blinded by pain giver you forget why those numbers are so, for instance the cw has highest dps because it hits the most enemies with the most attacks which is also powered up by other players debuffs just because you can run with 4 cws doesnt mean you have to.
GF is an excellent team mate just like the hr, the gwf, and the DC; you only see one class when you should be seeing them all.
im not attacking you just your terrible view points its not about dps 100% of the time if the cap on GS req ever goes up much higher than now its not gonna matter that there are 4 cw 10.5k is an easy gs to beat when at 14-18k
this class will be around quite a while im sure too and agree beckylunatic I love the GF i even started another just last night.
I know what the different classes can bring to a dungeon, including what debuffs they have, so I am not forgetting anything, you are just making stuff up as usual to slander me with. I explained quite thoroughly in this thread how GF buffs and debuffs are worse than DC's when the OP said that DC and GF are buffers. If you want to be a buffbot, DC has the potential to literally increase damage 2-3x more than a GF could.
you are widely irrelevent to me but when you tell someone who loves a class that its <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and make them stop coming to the forums by claiming whatever goes through your head it makes you into a unhappy person. GF arent buffers? "Most" people just ignore them for dps and knockdowns they are all good when feated especially for dps and damage reduction that stacks with the DC or nature ranger or others and the GF has almost all the abilities of a GWF except sprint. But they aren't all one button press.
Anvil of doom when it crits can hit as high as indomitable battle strike especially when the enemy hit is at 25% hp.
Lunging strike is like GWF punishing charge but hits 1 and doesnt suck.
certain dailies and Iron Warrior have the same effect as unstoppable.
you are widely irrelevent to me but when you tell someone who loves a class that its <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and make them stop coming to the forums by claiming whatever goes through your head it makes you into a unhappy person. GF arent buffers? "Most" people just ignore them for dps and knockdowns they are all good when feated especially for dps and damage reduction that stacks with the DC or nature ranger or others and the GF has almost all the abilities of a GWF except sprint. But they aren't all one button press.
Anvil of doom when it crits can hit as high as indomitable battle strike especially when the enemy hit is at 25% hp.
Lunging strike is like GWF punishing charge but hits 1 and doesnt suck.
certain dailies and Iron Warrior have the same effect as unstoppable.
You are wrong when you say "they are all good when feated". It's such a wrong statement I'm just going to leave it at that. And GF do not have "almost all the abilities of a GWF except sprint". They have swordmaster and iron vanguard abilities that do less than 40% of the damage of the GWF versions because the people who did module 2 did not take into consideration the base damage on weapons of the two classes or the feats that GWF have access to and GF don't.
Anvil of doom is a joke, lunging strike is a joke, all gf dailies and iron warrior pale in comparison to unstoppable.
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paniereMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 27Arc User
edited February 2014
Before mod 2 GWfs were in bad state. Cws were op. The other 3 classes could have been considered fine. Cryptic had just to buff one and nerf the other to balance all 5 at the same level. Result after mod 2: cws are even superior than before, GWfs got buffed over decency, other 3 classes (4 now) are still fine but far behind. Now I've played many other mmorpgs where many more classes were available and I never witnessed such an incopetency in balancing things out. Hell, EQ2 had 24 (twentyfour) classes and ALL were needed. SoE was able to create a 24 classes game which is still a masterpiece of equilibrium. How is it possible that these guys can't take 2 classes to the level of the other 4? What about slowing down the release of the next sledge-pig-fawntastic event and focus in the core mechanic of a broken child like NW is today?
You are wrong when you say "they are all good when feated". It's such a wrong statement I'm just going to leave it at that. And GF do not have "almost all the abilities of a GWF except sprint". They have swordmaster and iron vanguard abilities that do less than 40% of the damage of the GWF versions because the people who did module 2 did not take into consideration the base damage on weapons of the two classes or the feats that GWF have access to and GF don't.
Anvil of doom is a joke, lunging strike is a joke, all gf dailies and iron warrior pale in comparison to unstoppable.
all right since you are sooooo smart tell us chocobofarmer what would you do to make GF better?
not scrap it because its inferior or whatever but what do you actually think would make a GF desirable to you?
and you are the joke.
I never witnessed such an incopetency in balancing things out. Hell, EQ2 had 24 (twentyfour) classes and ALL were needed. SoE was able to create a 24 classes game which is still a masterpiece of equilibrium. How is it possible that these guys can't take 2 classes to the level of the other 4? What about slowing down the release of the next sledge-pig-fawntastic event and focus in the core mechanic of a broken child like NW is today?
huh funny i dont see your mmo its only been out almost a year and these graphics trump the hell out of those mmos meaning that more mechanics need to be implemented and retouched every time something new comes out which is what theyve been doing we have to wait.
and agreed that the balance needs refocusing maybe even make the mobs have higher defense or something then the hr would shine too.
Maybe after the patch something may go right we can only hope or try to come up with ways to better it the devs havent considered but comparing to cw isnt helping it at all; they just aren't the same.
I'm not hating on his cw or even him its just the way he goes about it. It makes people feel like its not fun anymore I still have fun with my GF and HR many others do too I'm sure despite the problems.
Maybe after the patch something may go right we can only hope or try to come up with ways to better it the devs havent considered but comparing to cw isnt helping it at all; they just aren't the same.
I'm not hating on his cw or even him its just the way he goes about it. It makes people feel like its not fun anymore I still have fun with my GF and HR many others do too I'm sure despite the problems.
Comparison is important because the problem is you won't ever find a GF or HR picked over a CW all other things considered equal in end game dungeons. CW and GF being different doesn't make comparison pointless, except maybe in your mind.
I've never said classes aren't viable at low gs, I always mention "end game dungeons" when talking about cw, dc and gwf being the stronger classes, which is just a fact despite your attempts to make it seem like the classes are balanced at end game. I'd rather not give people here a headache by citing the many times you have tried to make this sort of claim, but just fyi I'm not forgetful and find your attempt to put words in my mouth and charging your position to be as distasteful as your attempt to discredit me by comparing me to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
Comments
thank you for your early and detailed reply. My main goal was to show the utility of the GF class in this game, but all I can get from the community are responses about the superiority of CWs compared with GFs. If I have to summarize the main points of your comments, you claim that GFs are not good at taking aggro, they do not make much damage, they do not buff enough like other classes. Here, I wanted to debate the fact that GFs are a good class for end-game experiences, but you all seem to "appreciate" much more the "utility" of CWs. In light of these facts, I decided to do not post anymore on this thread because there are too many comments about CWs (and GWFs) rather than focus on GFs. The title of this thread should have been "CWs the best front line class of the game", because no one seems to care about any other class rather than CWs (maybe Gwfs). In conclusion, I got that GFs, rangers, TRs are not needed in any party; DCs are sometimes still helpful. CWs rock and GWFs are good. Nothing else to add. Enjoy the game!
1) Get ESO
2) Roll a Templar
3) Enjoy
Problem solved.
P.S. I have a GF and use him for PvP lolz, that's his best spot right now.
Just want to say that I stand in agreement with most of your stances in this discussion.
I do feel that the GF could stand massive improvement. One of those improvements being move speed, just so the GF can get into the melee and grab aggro before the suicide squads rush in.
You basically have two types of people saying 'useless.' People who are severely max or overpowered by gear and such, and tend to run with others of similar nature, who have often become bored and want to rush through all to get to next (nothing wrong with that, but it colors opinion.) The other main body is made mostly of people who are relatively inexperienced and/or have had the misfortune of unpleasant experience with others. (Just my opinion, please hold your fire!)
Being in a guild with active players who enjoy the game for the sake of playing it, (as opposed to being a little jaded and wanting to lolz through everything, again each his own..) I have absolutely no issues getting t2(+) runs for my GF, and my mates often ask for a tank, (any tank, any class built as such.)
I get the main point of your post which is that GF needs some improvement, and that eliminating the class is not a proper option. I think some people (not most, some,) missed that.
That's all I have to say, I find it all rather obvious and needless of discussion, although I did pick up some interesting bits through the discourse. We all know the devs are entirely aware of the situation. I don't know, but I -think- they are having difficulty finding a way to make the GF more appealing in PvE without making it OP in PvP, or turning it into another GWF.
Roland Mac Sheonin GF | Tarron Direheart SW |
They don't know ****. I've been posting on preview for a long time about the problems and the solutions for gf imbalance, and they just delete my threads and not even have the decency to send them to the lower depths for posterity. I'll tell you right now, no amount of buffs will make gf viable. The only way for gf, tr, and hr, to be good at end game content, they have to fix deep gash for gwf and greatly reduce CW damage and cc potential, or at least separate the high dps and high cc components of cw abilities from each other.
the problem is that lifesteal daily and villains menace is reactive abilities - you use to react to smth - either red circle or being low on hp, for that the animation is WAAAAAY too slow, specially if u live outside of NA and have 150+ ping, on top of that switching from block attacking to normal at wills is clunky, other skills might be fine, though some animation locks should be removed
about mobile gf i agree, since lunge is on short cd and IV get rush while swordmasters are immune to damage for half of the fight
the biggest problem i have with gf is overlapping cc from mobs, since you have to keep your shield up for far too long, you cant activate villains menace since it takes like 2hours 23 minutes to finish that stupid and useless animation. even unstoppable animation is often cancelled and that is much shorter than VM, while tr can dodge or ItC and gwf generally dont give a f... with unstoppable being up 70% of the fight and having sprint on top of it
gf lacks the feel of being useful since u are a buff *****
i dont mind having decent+ gfs in party, but i wont be playing mine til they they do smth with it
CW stacking isn't something people do because it's necessary, it's something they do because it makes all content much, much faster (and often facerollingly easy). What chaoscourtesan says about running with friends & guildies because you're ultimately playing a game (for fun, hopefully, unless you're a chinese goldfarmer locked in a basement) is totally true. If your objective is to simply farm as much content as fast as possible DON'T STOP TO LOOT THAT NODE U NUB OMG WTF, then yeah: stack CWs and stick a GWF in there.
If your objective is to team up with friends and kill some monsters, then it's less problematic.
If anything, the major problem is the game so heavily encourages the former approach.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
ohhhhhh almost forgot!!! if you want to have crazy funzzzz with a gf check out my boy's todafelles iron maiden Guardian fighter guide trust me youll never stop playing a gf
As good as I was at my GF, the difference is insane between the 2 classes. It's actually a complete joke. At this point, they would need to make the GF completely OP or absolutely needed for me to even consider playing it again. Not getting constantly knocked down or stunned when I use an ability is such a fun feeling.
he says the same stuff about all the classes he doesnt like.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Gloom level 60 Control Wizard
Dusk level 60 Trickster Rogue
Dawn level 60 Devoted Cleric
Eclipse level 60 Hunter Ranger
Wrath level 60 Great Weapon Fighter
Jinx level 60 Scourge Warlock
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?616031-GF-Issue-List-Hopefully-to-viewed-by-someone-that-cares&p=7346071#post7346071
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Is that supposed to be some kind of rational argument in your mind?
People should listen to me because what I'm saying is factual, and they would be much happier not playing inferior classes that are just AD blackholes.
they are all good at what they do!
no one should have to listen to you veramis you are an unhappy person and do nothing but bum others out.
Most dungeon teams have 2-4 cw's, and even 2 cw cn's are quite uncommon. It's not just me who thinks CW is the strongest class in the game, it is the opinion of the vast majority of players who have reached end game content, which you have admitted you have never done.
The classes in this game are not all good at what they supposedly do. A GF has much worse tankability than a DC, and worse threat generation than a DPS GWF or CW. A TR does less single target DPS than properly built single target DPS GWF and CW. A HR does less AoE DPS than CW and GWF.
Keep on making unsubstantiated claims about the supposed balance in this game and engaging in ad hominem attacks against me, I find your hypocrisy to be very amusing.
This is very true. All the people posting stuff like "might as well just delete the class" are basically being snarky out of their frustration. They don't really mean it, only that they don't see a lot of point in playing one the way things are right now.
Now, I literally play every class. I've taken advantage of the current disfavour of the GF to snag cheap gear for mine because I'm one of those opportunistic optimists who figures that everything comes around. I'm interested to see what will happen when some of the proposed changes currently piggybacking on the pvp testing are ready to go live.
My GF uses a build similar to this, although my favoured encounters are set up a bit differently.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?536101-13k-Tactician-Guardian-Fighter-quot-Missionary-quot-Build-for-PVE
Apropos of nothing, I ran the orc CTA once with this GF because I needed it for the achievement and managed to come in third in the Paingiver chart, ahead of both a CW and an HR. Both of them were mid-level, but I was under the impression that damage-scaling in these CTAs made it very easy for lowbies to seemingly out-DPS 60s, so it was a bit of a weird moment. Eyes of Gruumsh can be pretty annoying, but their prones are pretty much the only thing a Tactician GF *needs* to block in there. Even an ogre knockback can be eaten if it's tactically better at that exact moment to not raise the shield.
I see a lot of complaints about how easily guard breaks, and maybe it's just my preferred playstyle, but it's interesting that there's an entire GF path that revolves around not-blocking.
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GF is an excellent team mate just like the hr, the gwf, and the DC; you only see one class when you should be seeing them all.
im not attacking you just your terrible view points its not about dps 100% of the time if the cap on GS req ever goes up much higher than now its not gonna matter that there are 4 cw 10.5k is an easy gs to beat when at 14-18k
this class will be around quite a while im sure too and agree beckylunatic I love the GF i even started another just last night.
I know what the different classes can bring to a dungeon, including what debuffs they have, so I am not forgetting anything, you are just making stuff up as usual to slander me with. I explained quite thoroughly in this thread how GF buffs and debuffs are worse than DC's when the OP said that DC and GF are buffers. If you want to be a buffbot, DC has the potential to literally increase damage 2-3x more than a GF could.
you are widely irrelevent to me but when you tell someone who loves a class that its <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and make them stop coming to the forums by claiming whatever goes through your head it makes you into a unhappy person. GF arent buffers? "Most" people just ignore them for dps and knockdowns they are all good when feated especially for dps and damage reduction that stacks with the DC or nature ranger or others and the GF has almost all the abilities of a GWF except sprint. But they aren't all one button press.
Anvil of doom when it crits can hit as high as indomitable battle strike especially when the enemy hit is at 25% hp.
Lunging strike is like GWF punishing charge but hits 1 and doesnt suck.
certain dailies and Iron Warrior have the same effect as unstoppable.
You are wrong when you say "they are all good when feated". It's such a wrong statement I'm just going to leave it at that. And GF do not have "almost all the abilities of a GWF except sprint". They have swordmaster and iron vanguard abilities that do less than 40% of the damage of the GWF versions because the people who did module 2 did not take into consideration the base damage on weapons of the two classes or the feats that GWF have access to and GF don't.
Anvil of doom is a joke, lunging strike is a joke, all gf dailies and iron warrior pale in comparison to unstoppable.
all right since you are sooooo smart tell us chocobofarmer what would you do to make GF better?
not scrap it because its inferior or whatever but what do you actually think would make a GF desirable to you?
and you are the joke.
I never witnessed such an incopetency in balancing things out. Hell, EQ2 had 24 (twentyfour) classes and ALL were needed. SoE was able to create a 24 classes game which is still a masterpiece of equilibrium. How is it possible that these guys can't take 2 classes to the level of the other 4? What about slowing down the release of the next sledge-pig-fawntastic event and focus in the core mechanic of a broken child like NW is today?
huh funny i dont see your mmo its only been out almost a year and these graphics trump the hell out of those mmos meaning that more mechanics need to be implemented and retouched every time something new comes out which is what theyve been doing we have to wait.
and agreed that the balance needs refocusing maybe even make the mobs have higher defense or something then the hr would shine too.
I've said many times what needs to be done, but you don't read my posts. Try actually reading instead of foaming at the mouth.
saw nothing really about your gf.... if you've even got one.
and honestly the only reason i "slander" you is because im done reasoning with you.
Yeah, he does. Her name is Vera, and he used to play with her a lot.
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Touche'.
Maybe after the patch something may go right we can only hope or try to come up with ways to better it the devs havent considered but comparing to cw isnt helping it at all; they just aren't the same.
I'm not hating on his cw or even him its just the way he goes about it. It makes people feel like its not fun anymore I still have fun with my GF and HR many others do too I'm sure despite the problems.
Comparison is important because the problem is you won't ever find a GF or HR picked over a CW all other things considered equal in end game dungeons. CW and GF being different doesn't make comparison pointless, except maybe in your mind.
I've never said classes aren't viable at low gs, I always mention "end game dungeons" when talking about cw, dc and gwf being the stronger classes, which is just a fact despite your attempts to make it seem like the classes are balanced at end game. I'd rather not give people here a headache by citing the many times you have tried to make this sort of claim, but just fyi I'm not forgetful and find your attempt to put words in my mouth and charging your position to be as distasteful as your attempt to discredit me by comparing me to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.