Classes in this game are made to work together and to chain-play as a party.
(Speaking of Encounters , Passives and Feats that should be paired with other classes Actions)
Because the game is not so perfectly designed,they are other ways and variaties of running throughout a dungeon.
This depends on the goal of the person who makes the party.
Every class has his contribution to the Dungeon Run so depending on the skill/gear of the other members the group can double/tripple a class if they want to.
This is normal and should not allow any stupid presumptions such as GF class sucks.
Besides PvE at this point is really easy and borring so you dont get props for being good in a non-challenging environment.
Re-reading this whole thread I see one glaring problem in the approach many GFs are taking. Many of you seem to want to static-tank. That works in other games but not this one. GF needs to move. Reserve the shield for those attacks that you need to stop and keep it down otherwise. No dodge in the game has the range of lunging strike use that to re-position. also getting ahead of the mobs means you have space to make more attacks. In any dungeon of note static-tanking will just get you killed more slowly. Someone suggested calling it a 'Control Fighter' this is closer to the truth.
Cryptic gave up on gf, or doing any real balancing to the game, they are too focused on creating 80% runspeed mounts. They will just let sentinel gwf's run around making everyone quit pvp and cw's all using the same builds doing this to mobs.
They are really unexperienced in many things...
GF, i have on but i become older and older..
Why playing, i have a strong CW, you NEVER need a GF if you have strong DD
The complete gameplay tactics and Classbalances are really bad in Neverwinter..
I am sure they will loose many gamers to elderscrolls online.
If a GF spec's for full defense and knows how to actually use their marks and hold aggro they will always be a value added member in any group I run.
However, since most GF seem incapable of even using marks and have some of the most timid players I've ever seen in a tanking class I stick to my story that there are 4 decent GF in all of Neverwinter. The fact most GF wait for a singularity to even think about closing to melee range is...confusing...until I notice that they are geared for DPS and are still 4th in Paingiver while providing no aggro control.
Actually DPS builds are the best in holding aggro while putting out decent damage themselves. A full defensive spec is fun but worthless in end game. I run 10k power while wearing my KC set. That's how a decent GF should look like.
I just started this january, and i found this thread.
my gf hasnt reached max level, but I can feel what you all had done with GF.
I immediately picked GF, since every single game i've played, A shield Man cant go wrong.
just like many other games, every shield holder cant be the best DPS. but too bad you cant be tank either at NW.
here are my thoughts :
1. how do you tank with 5 Offensive slot when there are only 2 defensive slot (+1 if your shirt/pants has slot on it) ? even utility has 3.
2. the stats set of the equip, by default GWF has Power and ArP, TR got crit. GF set is bad to be DPS by default and bad for tanking by default.
3. Daily and feature class for dps is slighty weaker, but pretty bad for tanking.
4. block is weak. no gain from it just make your live longer. there should be some mechanism, when you guard, gaining some Deflect or reflect.(in this case GF needs Power/feats) or some final damage like 50% of blocked damage blasted around GF when guard is broken.
5. how come top GF has 31-34k when other classes reach 5k lower.. it needs some large margin like 10 -15k HP.
I will come up with others when i remember it.
may someone discuss this...
Most if not all epic belts have a defensive slot and a number of epic rings do as well. If you want, you can have armor, shield, ring, ring, belt and pants. If you get an augment companion, you can have even more. There are a lot of epic items that also have good amount of defense/deflect/life steal on them, so it's not really an issue.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
Most if not all epic belts have a defensive slot and a number of epic rings do as well. If you want, you can have armor, shield, ring, ring, belt and pants. If you get an augment companion, you can have even more. There are a lot of epic items that also have good amount of defense/deflect/life steal on them, so it's not really an issue.
for me, it is an issue, so GF needs Top gears to "TANK", while CW/GWF, can do the same. it should be GF need moderate Gears to tank, then become a Truck if equipped with Top Gear. this is where the problem lies.
by reading the argument has been posted to this thread, a CW claimed he could lifesteal 10-14k with 6 second cooldown. as we know, CW is OP, but that's not the point. CW could be so strong because the stats set of their Epic gear is OP that has synergy for CW's skills.
but We as GF has no synergy to in-game mechanism (excluding debuff). GF needs STR for Big Guard meter. CON for HP and AP gain, DEX for deflect. but as we can see, nothing in the game support those 3.
1. CON has no gain from potion, no gain from heal. (e.g Con upgrade Healing potion and Healing power from DC, so more Con, more Recovery).
2. Guard meter is nowhere near good, Guarding is the same from level 1 or level 60. (some skills like Guarding stance doesnt slowing movement would be nice).
3. Deflect is horrible, you farm so hard, get such a big deflect chance and yet you only deflect 50% dmg. I've seen Iron maiden's thread, its sure interesting but still far from how GF should tank.
Do we oversight about the pvp/pve ? when something is broken about the class, one does not simply compares it to the OP class.
seyfertarte, if anyone cares about GF and class balance, he ought to compare GF with the most OP class. You make some points I don't necessarily disagree with, but as I've said earlier in the thread, they have to massively nerf CW damage and/or cc potential and to a bit lesser degree GWF damage for GF to possibly be on the same level. What you are suggesting in terms of tweaking for synergy is not sufficient. The only tweak that might bring GF up to the same level as CW in pvp is if they let the same elementary school kid who programmed GWF deep gash in mod 2 to program GF reckless attacker and give GF's 40k power.
I have my GF up to 13,586 gs and I am disappointed at how poor my DPS is in comparison to my lower geared other toons... Even as a Conq build my hits are ridiculously low in comparison, while I watch a DC 1 shot 5 mobs? I was like wtf?
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
I know I know!!!!! I spent so much time and $$$ on this guy I like his play style he's just gimped... Everywhere I go where it be PvP or PvE GWf and CW everywhere, its nauseating those 2 classes completely taking over the game.
seyfertarte, if anyone cares about GF and class balance, he ought to compare GF with the most OP class. You make some points I don't necessarily disagree with, but as I've said earlier in the thread, they have to massively nerf CW damage and/or cc potential and to a bit lesser degree GWF damage for GF to possibly be on the same level. What you are suggesting in terms of tweaking for synergy is not sufficient. The only tweak that might bring GF up to the same level as CW in pvp is if they let the same elementary school kid who programmed GWF deep gash in mod 2 to program GF reckless attacker and give GF's 40k power.
dmg output isnt a problem for GF, like i said before, shield man cant be the best dps in every single MMO out there. it will always be a Magician or Berserk/GWF/two handed type. the flaws here is a moderate dmg of GF combine with his average skill of tanking.
no problem with assasin/TR or Ranger. they will always be "the sneaky *******".
Job like GF should be "easy to tank", while "challenging to be dps-er". but here, DPS is easier while Tanking is hard. with my point before.
i could say this since i play two type of GF. and the dps type is easier to make.
why ? once again, in the journey to 60. 5 offensive slot. 2 def slot. 3 utility.
Power, Crit, Arp for to build your offensive.
Lifesteal, Regen, recovery, def, deflect, Max hp for defensive.
"uhm, i want to get a lot of lifesteal or recover or regen or def or deflect or max hp.."
"here son, your 2 defensive slot"
" i want Ring of Tankiness"
"here kid, your ring with offensive slot".
"wait, i want to tank"
"k, get your epic gears then..."
tanking is really hard, then you reach 60, CW/GWF beats you. nerfing them doesnt solve the problem ( even though GWF/CW need some nerf but that is another case) since the problem lies within the GF itself.
at least boost GF's gear to 5 def slot (Helm, arms, feet provide two def slot).
high number of Power, arp, Crit are useless when it doesnt have synergy to Threat, Guard meter or even any other defensive mechanism.
GF is indeed the best tanking class. but if CW/GWF does the same job with slightly weaker. thats a problem.
that just my thought about some room of improvements.
As a person with a GF main, who now plays CW more or less exclusively I've noticed quite a number of reasons why the GF is so underappreciated/underpowered:
1.CWs control just as good, if not slightly better than, a GF: A CW's potential for "tanking" (aka kiting) is just as potent as a GF's. THis is because of their amazing encounter powers that control AND damage, while having sets like Champion Mage that gives a substantial boost to HP. Combined with 1k of lifesteal and endless consumption, and you basically have an indestructible DPS/ Aggro generating machine. All you have to do as a "tank" CW is be the first into a fight, use icy terrain, and dance around the ice and nuke the mobs. 90% of the time you are the main aggro magnet, potentially out aggroing a Non Iron Vanguard GWF. With a thaum build and CoI, you will also be a debuff mitigation machine, why even roll a GF?
2. There are baaaad GFs out there: As a 17k GF who is completely free to play, i never got the chance to experience how other GFs play their class. Boy was i surprised to find out that most GFs struggle to hold aggro AND do very bad damage while using gear like Grand Regent. Grand Regent is decent as a set, but WHY OH WHY aren't more people using Knight's captain? Its a T1 set ffs.
3. Despite this, a well built and well played GF is very good in PVP: PVPing with my CW i noticed that i get melted, fast. People focus the CW asap because of their control power, and often i can't do anything except die over and over again, especially if my team sucks. As a GF, unless i run against premades and my team is utter scrubs, i can easily top score and kill charts with my GF. I do this routinely, even when i have more kills than my entire team combined. I can get 2 or 3 enemies to waste time trying to kill me on enemy node while my team caps mid. Or i can chain prone a squishie and crush them with my rotations augmented by trample the fallen. GF is crazy good in PVP, and in my opinion a party of 5 GFs, 1 being the iron maiden tacticial build with a KC and 4 being conq with timeless set, would be the second most OP composition behind a party of 5 GWF Sent IV.
In sum, GFs are in a very good place in PVP, But because of how hard "tanking" is in PvE, how many bad GFs there are, and the fact that a CW is far more effective than a GF in add management, a GF will never be wanted in any dungeon that isn't FH or SP...
First, i never have an issue with GF as dps, i've said before, A shield man only become 2nd dps at his best. why tanking is way too weak ?
Tanking is utterly unnecessary. Incidentally if you wanted to know a few of us in EoA were throwing around some theorycrafting BiS tank HP for GWF and GF(and rather rough estimates). A GF can get up to 50k HP, with GWF's slightly behind by a few thousand.
If you want GF's to be tankier, consider asking for GF's to get a modifier to the defense and deflect diminishing returns graphs. As it is currently, GF's hit those diminishing returns hard, which is why 4500 def barely feels like an improvement from 3500 defense a great deal of the time.
I have my GF up to 13,586 gs and I am disappointed at how poor my DPS is in comparison to my lower geared other toons... Even as a Conq build my hits are ridiculously low in comparison, while I watch a DC 1 shot 5 mobs? I was like wtf?
13.5k as a conq is pretty darn low. Probably equivalent to a 8-10k on other classes.
Tanking is utterly unnecessary. Incidentally if you wanted to know a few of us in EoA were throwing around some theorycrafting BiS tank HP for GWF and GF(and rather rough estimates). A GF can get up to 50k HP, with GWF's slightly behind by a few thousand.
If you want GF's to be tankier, consider asking for GF's to get a modifier to the defense and deflect diminishing returns graphs. As it is currently, GF's hit those diminishing returns hard, which is why 4500 def barely feels like an improvement from 3500 defense a great deal of the time.
13.5k as a conq is pretty darn low. Probably equivalent to a 8-10k on other classes.
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
for me, it is an issue, so GF needs Top gears to "TANK", while CW/GWF, can do the same. it should be GF need moderate Gears to tank, then become a Truck if equipped with Top Gear. this is where the problem lies.
Who said anything about top gear? You can get minor rings, belt and waist items by farming seals in CT or even just trash in Sharandar or Dread Ring. You can get Grand items in many cases off the AH for less than you can salvage them for. The actual 'top gear' the stuff that doesn't have defense slots tend to be what is actually expensive. There are a number of green items you can get while leveling that have defensive slots. The final lair in the Chasm usually seems to drop a class specific belt that gives a large number of HP and has a defense slot. There are others throughout the game. There are tons of ways to get the stats you want.
Not being able to stack your stats exactly as you want for a char that hasn't even reached level 60 isn't what's holding GFs back in this game.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
"shield man cant be the best dps in every single MMO" Should the Shield Man as you call it be out DPSed by the healer?
I'm sorry but HOW did a healer out DPS you? The closest a healer gets to me is 3 million behind me and that is when I am in my KC gear and it is a dungeon where I have to do a lot of kiting (FH).
Yea I've only been 60 for a week or so, I will get better. I hope your right...
Okay, this may explain your DPS issues. Do you mind posting your feats? Maybe you missed something? Also, you say you spent some money on him, did you buy a Stone of Allure/Might? A Stone companion is critical in making a DPS-hybrid GF.
Also, myself and my guild will gladly run with an at least decent GF and we will go into ANY dungeon (ToS & CN will have slightly higher demands on a GF) with them. With my Conqueror in Timeless or KC set we can easily finish 2 dungeon runs within the hour, including two SPs (the most trash-infested T2) in an hour. If you ever need to run and can't find a group I'd gladly get on my DC, rope in some friends and run with you.
The sad state of this game;
On Sunday myself (GF), two GWF guildies and a guildie DC invited a CW into a SP run. First thing he said was ''Interesting party'' and then asked if we thought SP would be possible with this group, emphasising 3 melees with one of them being the red-headed step child of Neverwinter (my GF). We told him we had plenty experience with this composition. A few minutes into the run and the CW is falling off his chair due to the power and thus damage spikes he was receiving from my KC set, something he'd never seen. His reaction, from questioning the party composition and its potential for success to his reaction to the buffs, tells me that this chap had very, VERY little experience with GFs yet he so easily formulated a negative opinion about the class.
There are GFs out there that can get the job done in light of our limitations (mainly our sluggishness and sub-par class mechanic). We may not fit into the most "optimal" 15-minute dungeon clears, but then again currently only 2 classes (GWF & CW) and a token (DC) can pull that off.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
Lunging Strike: Now deals 1/3rd of its damage in a cone behind the primary target. Threat will be generated on these targets as if they were struck for the full amount.
Iron Warrior: While under the effect of Iron Warrior, players will now generate 150% more threat.
Bull Charge: Lunge distance has been increased from 18’ to 28’.
Frontline Surge: Cooldown has been reduced from 20 to 19 seconds. Target cap has been increased from 3 to 5. Damage has been reduced by 25%. Prone duration has been reduced against players. The ground splat has been increased to better represent effect area.
Feat Reinforced Surge: Now increases damage by 1/2/3/4/5%. Additional prone duration has been reduced to .1/.2/.3/.4/.5 seconds.
this doesn't look like a buff to me.
I've only been playing a couple weeks now and have my T1 set, working on T2, full tank spec. From what I've experienced I find it hard to believe that they find this a viable upgrade by slightly increasing the threat we generate (which I have little problem gathering aggro now) and no addition to defense. Maybe it's just lack of experience but I tend to lose my shield extremely fast when I get the aggro I think I should be able maintain (everything lol) and die just as quickly. I could care less about the dmg output as this is not a focal point of a punching bag. I'm not going to compare classes here but I have yet to see a class that can't substitute my position as well as I can when I'm supposed to specialize in it. Shame on you development team... you should have reconsidered the gear and defense structure instead of nerfing what little dmg we do.
2. There are baaaad GFs out there: As a 17k GF who is completely free to play, i never got the chance to experience how other GFs play their class. Boy was i surprised to find out that most GFs struggle to hold aggro AND do very bad damage while using gear like Grand Regent. Grand Regent is decent as a set, but WHY OH WHY aren't more people using Knight's captain? Its a T1 set ffs.
Being guilty of this particular sin myself, I will answer:
It is extremely counter-intuitive that a T1 set has such a grossly overpowered bonus. Also, because the tooltips are so obscure/wrong, calculating the benefit of added stats is non-inmediate. For the most part, people see the High General bonus and figure out that it must be the best, even though it only translates to a 3% damage increase at best. Intuitively, your mind simply resists the idea that a T1 set offers something like...20?? 30%? increase in damage. It is only after you do the math that you start to realize the dreadful truth, and even then, I am sure most people scrap the calculations thinking "there must be something I don't get".
I'm sorry but HOW did a healer out DPS you? The closest a healer gets to me is 3 million behind me and that is when I am in my KC gear and it is a dungeon where I have to do a lot of kiting (FH).
Okay, this may explain your DPS issues. Do you mind posting your feats? Maybe you missed something? Also, you say you spent some money on him, did you buy a Stone of Allure/Might? A Stone companion is critical in making a DPS-hybrid GF.
Also, myself and my guild will gladly run with an at least decent GF and we will go into ANY dungeon (ToS & CN will have slightly higher demands on a GF) with them. With my Conqueror in Timeless or KC set we can easily finish 2 dungeon runs within the hour, including two SPs (the most trash-infested T2) in an hour. If you ever need to run and can't find a group I'd gladly get on my DC, rope in some friends and run with you.
The sad state of this game;
On Sunday myself (GF), two GWF guildies and a guildie DC invited a CW into a SP run. First thing he said was ''Interesting party'' and then asked if we thought SP would be possible with this group, emphasising 3 melees with one of them being the red-headed step child of Neverwinter (my GF). We told him we had plenty experience with this composition. A few minutes into the run and the CW is falling off his chair due to the power and thus damage spikes he was receiving from my KC set, something he'd never seen. His reaction, from questioning the party composition and its potential for success to his reaction to the buffs, tells me that this chap had very, VERY little experience with GFs yet he so easily formulated a negative opinion about the class.
There are GFs out there that can get the job done in light of our limitations (mainly our sluggishness and sub-par class mechanic). We may not fit into the most "optimal" 15-minute dungeon clears, but then again currently only 2 classes (GWF & CW) and a token (DC) can pull that off.
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
I agree with you if I could withstand a massive beating and do HAMSTER dps that would be fine, at least I'd have my specialization. But I take same if not more damage then other classes with my guard broken, and do abysmal dps to boot!
This class the ( GF ) is like the non athletic kid in the neighborhood that's never picked for the weekend football/ baseball/ soccer/ softball game with the other kids unless someone is grounded and couldn't make it!
I've only been playing a couple weeks now and have my T1 set, working on T2, full tank spec. From what I've experienced I find it hard to believe that they find this a viable upgrade by slightly increasing the threat we generate (which I have little problem gathering aggro now) and no addition to defense. Maybe it's just lack of experience but I tend to lose my shield extremely fast when I get the aggro I think I should be able maintain (everything lol) and die just as quickly. I could care less about the dmg output as this is not a focal point of a punching bag. I'm not going to compare classes here but I have yet to see a class that can't substitute my position as well as I can when I'm supposed to specialize in it. Shame on you development team... you should have reconsidered the gear and defense structure instead of nerfing what little dmg we do.
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Yea the only problem is "That's the only reason you were their was as a power buff bot only"
No.
This was the first weekend I have had a full KC buff set as I only got the helm on Friday. Prior to that I had been running Timeless for over a month and I DD every weekend with my GF.
Believe it or not their are GFs out there that know what they are doing and can get into dungeons with guilds, friends or via the LFG channel. I have NEVER not gotten into a dungeon using either of those 3 methods and as a I pointed out, I have only had a full KC set for 5 days.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
I've only been playing a couple weeks now and have my T1 set, working on T2, full tank spec. From what I've experienced I find it hard to believe that they find this a viable upgrade by slightly increasing the threat we generate (which I have little problem gathering aggro now) and no addition to defense. Maybe it's just lack of experience but I tend to lose my shield extremely fast when I get the aggro I think I should be able maintain (everything lol) and die just as quickly. I could care less about the dmg output as this is not a focal point of a punching bag. I'm not going to compare classes here but I have yet to see a class that can't substitute my position as well as I can when I'm supposed to specialize in it. Shame on you development team... you should have reconsidered the gear and defense structure instead of nerfing what little dmg we do.
The shield is a weakness, what you need to learn to do is when and what to block. You only block attacks that prone or stun you and some of the big swings from elites/adds, otherwise you should be able to take everything in the mouth. NEVER just stand and block everything. The enemies telegraph their biggest hits/prones/stuns so you can literally see them winding up. You only block those. With experience you will learn what every monster in every dungeon can do and will thus know who and what to block.
Also, learn to position yourself in relation to the monsters. DO NOT use Enforced Threat and expect to survive when surrounded, as you will be giving up combat advantage and thus take more damage. If you pull a mob, position yourself so that the monsters are now all in front of you and make sure you turn them away from the party. Doing this lowers the damage you take and also gives your party combat advantage, so they do bonus damage to the enemies.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
I think that skill and practice has more to do with it than anything else. The fact is GFs have to work harder to be good at what they are. They do have low dps, they do play differently than dps classes, and they have to really memorize each instance to know what to do. So I do think skill and experience make the biggest difference.
That said, they are also somewhat legitimately underpowered. So in the next module they will receive some improvements. Hopefully those of us that decided to remain loyal to the class will benefit the most. xD
I think that skill and practice has more to do with it than anything else. The fact is GFs have to work harder to be good at what they are. They do have low dps, they do play differently than dps classes, and they have to really memorize each instance to know what to do. So I do think skill and experience make the biggest difference.
That said, they are also somewhat legitimately underpowered. So in the next module they will receive some improvements. Hopefully those of us that decided to remain loyal to the class will benefit the most. xD
Hi there!
Somewhat underpowered is the understatement of the day, for example look at us GFs, how long does it take to kill a Duergar Rider in GG, i nearly sleep in sometimes.
I wish your infos were correct and will come true, that with the next module things will be better, but i doubt it. Why?
1) Because the program code hasn't a single piece of improvement in it for us to this day, and the next module will come soon.
2)What is- according to inner sources- in it another "Legolas" sub-class and the Warlock, which will be like CW 2nd edition.
3)I know a guy-, who worked for Cryptic- and he says, that the company policy is, what is broken will be left on a B-line, you can play it, but no real programming work. Cryptic doesn't want to spend big money on talented programmers, they cost way too much for them, so lower profit income.
4)If someday they fix the GF, when will it be in 1 or 2 or even more years, come on guys, we don't live for ever, we don't get younger, and who knows where will be this game in a couple of years time.
Wait? Sure i will keep my GF and do the dailies and everything other with him, but i will do a 2nd character, maybe a GWF, because i like melee classes, and it has now good support from Cryptic.
And last but not least, this game doesn't favor the positive qualities, that we GFs have, like if we had a bard or a monk or so, it would be HAMSTER in this game style, where only sheer high DPS values count. This said it's the worst game style, where a melee shielded fighter is being reduced to null.
Bye!
The real honest man is honest from conviction of what is right, not from policy.
Robert E. Lee
I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
Winston Churchill
The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
David Icke
Comments
(Speaking of Encounters , Passives and Feats that should be paired with other classes Actions)
Because the game is not so perfectly designed,they are other ways and variaties of running throughout a dungeon.
This depends on the goal of the person who makes the party.
Every class has his contribution to the Dungeon Run so depending on the skill/gear of the other members the group can double/tripple a class if they want to.
This is normal and should not allow any stupid presumptions such as GF class sucks.
Besides PvE at this point is really easy and borring so you dont get props for being good in a non-challenging environment.
They are really unexperienced in many things...
GF, i have on but i become older and older..
Why playing, i have a strong CW, you NEVER need a GF if you have strong DD
The complete gameplay tactics and Classbalances are really bad in Neverwinter..
I am sure they will loose many gamers to elderscrolls online.
Actually DPS builds are the best in holding aggro while putting out decent damage themselves. A full defensive spec is fun but worthless in end game. I run 10k power while wearing my KC set. That's how a decent GF should look like.
my gf hasnt reached max level, but I can feel what you all had done with GF.
I immediately picked GF, since every single game i've played, A shield Man cant go wrong.
just like many other games, every shield holder cant be the best DPS. but too bad you cant be tank either at NW.
here are my thoughts :
1. how do you tank with 5 Offensive slot when there are only 2 defensive slot (+1 if your shirt/pants has slot on it) ? even utility has 3.
2. the stats set of the equip, by default GWF has Power and ArP, TR got crit. GF set is bad to be DPS by default and bad for tanking by default.
3. Daily and feature class for dps is slighty weaker, but pretty bad for tanking.
4. block is weak. no gain from it just make your live longer. there should be some mechanism, when you guard, gaining some Deflect or reflect.(in this case GF needs Power/feats) or some final damage like 50% of blocked damage blasted around GF when guard is broken.
5. how come top GF has 31-34k when other classes reach 5k lower.. it needs some large margin like 10 -15k HP.
I will come up with others when i remember it.
may someone discuss this...
for me, it is an issue, so GF needs Top gears to "TANK", while CW/GWF, can do the same. it should be GF need moderate Gears to tank, then become a Truck if equipped with Top Gear. this is where the problem lies.
by reading the argument has been posted to this thread, a CW claimed he could lifesteal 10-14k with 6 second cooldown. as we know, CW is OP, but that's not the point. CW could be so strong because the stats set of their Epic gear is OP that has synergy for CW's skills.
but We as GF has no synergy to in-game mechanism (excluding debuff). GF needs STR for Big Guard meter. CON for HP and AP gain, DEX for deflect. but as we can see, nothing in the game support those 3.
1. CON has no gain from potion, no gain from heal. (e.g Con upgrade Healing potion and Healing power from DC, so more Con, more Recovery).
2. Guard meter is nowhere near good, Guarding is the same from level 1 or level 60. (some skills like Guarding stance doesnt slowing movement would be nice).
3. Deflect is horrible, you farm so hard, get such a big deflect chance and yet you only deflect 50% dmg. I've seen Iron maiden's thread, its sure interesting but still far from how GF should tank.
Do we oversight about the pvp/pve ? when something is broken about the class, one does not simply compares it to the OP class.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
dmg output isnt a problem for GF, like i said before, shield man cant be the best dps in every single MMO out there. it will always be a Magician or Berserk/GWF/two handed type. the flaws here is a moderate dmg of GF combine with his average skill of tanking.
no problem with assasin/TR or Ranger. they will always be "the sneaky *******".
Job like GF should be "easy to tank", while "challenging to be dps-er". but here, DPS is easier while Tanking is hard. with my point before.
i could say this since i play two type of GF. and the dps type is easier to make.
why ? once again, in the journey to 60. 5 offensive slot. 2 def slot. 3 utility.
Power, Crit, Arp for to build your offensive.
Lifesteal, Regen, recovery, def, deflect, Max hp for defensive.
"uhm, i want to get a lot of lifesteal or recover or regen or def or deflect or max hp.."
"here son, your 2 defensive slot"
" i want Ring of Tankiness"
"here kid, your ring with offensive slot".
"wait, i want to tank"
"k, get your epic gears then..."
tanking is really hard, then you reach 60, CW/GWF beats you. nerfing them doesnt solve the problem ( even though GWF/CW need some nerf but that is another case) since the problem lies within the GF itself.
at least boost GF's gear to 5 def slot (Helm, arms, feet provide two def slot).
high number of Power, arp, Crit are useless when it doesnt have synergy to Threat, Guard meter or even any other defensive mechanism.
GF is indeed the best tanking class. but if CW/GWF does the same job with slightly weaker. thats a problem.
that just my thought about some room of improvements.
1.CWs control just as good, if not slightly better than, a GF: A CW's potential for "tanking" (aka kiting) is just as potent as a GF's. THis is because of their amazing encounter powers that control AND damage, while having sets like Champion Mage that gives a substantial boost to HP. Combined with 1k of lifesteal and endless consumption, and you basically have an indestructible DPS/ Aggro generating machine. All you have to do as a "tank" CW is be the first into a fight, use icy terrain, and dance around the ice and nuke the mobs. 90% of the time you are the main aggro magnet, potentially out aggroing a Non Iron Vanguard GWF. With a thaum build and CoI, you will also be a debuff mitigation machine, why even roll a GF?
2. There are baaaad GFs out there: As a 17k GF who is completely free to play, i never got the chance to experience how other GFs play their class. Boy was i surprised to find out that most GFs struggle to hold aggro AND do very bad damage while using gear like Grand Regent. Grand Regent is decent as a set, but WHY OH WHY aren't more people using Knight's captain? Its a T1 set ffs.
3. Despite this, a well built and well played GF is very good in PVP: PVPing with my CW i noticed that i get melted, fast. People focus the CW asap because of their control power, and often i can't do anything except die over and over again, especially if my team sucks. As a GF, unless i run against premades and my team is utter scrubs, i can easily top score and kill charts with my GF. I do this routinely, even when i have more kills than my entire team combined. I can get 2 or 3 enemies to waste time trying to kill me on enemy node while my team caps mid. Or i can chain prone a squishie and crush them with my rotations augmented by trample the fallen. GF is crazy good in PVP, and in my opinion a party of 5 GFs, 1 being the iron maiden tacticial build with a KC and 4 being conq with timeless set, would be the second most OP composition behind a party of 5 GWF Sent IV.
In sum, GFs are in a very good place in PVP, But because of how hard "tanking" is in PvE, how many bad GFs there are, and the fact that a CW is far more effective than a GF in add management, a GF will never be wanted in any dungeon that isn't FH or SP...
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Roll a DPS conq build, you won't regret it
If you want GF's to be tankier, consider asking for GF's to get a modifier to the defense and deflect diminishing returns graphs. As it is currently, GF's hit those diminishing returns hard, which is why 4500 def barely feels like an improvement from 3500 defense a great deal of the time.
13.5k as a conq is pretty darn low. Probably equivalent to a 8-10k on other classes.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Who said anything about top gear? You can get minor rings, belt and waist items by farming seals in CT or even just trash in Sharandar or Dread Ring. You can get Grand items in many cases off the AH for less than you can salvage them for. The actual 'top gear' the stuff that doesn't have defense slots tend to be what is actually expensive. There are a number of green items you can get while leveling that have defensive slots. The final lair in the Chasm usually seems to drop a class specific belt that gives a large number of HP and has a defense slot. There are others throughout the game. There are tons of ways to get the stats you want.
Not being able to stack your stats exactly as you want for a char that hasn't even reached level 60 isn't what's holding GFs back in this game.
I'm sorry but HOW did a healer out DPS you? The closest a healer gets to me is 3 million behind me and that is when I am in my KC gear and it is a dungeon where I have to do a lot of kiting (FH).
Okay, this may explain your DPS issues. Do you mind posting your feats? Maybe you missed something? Also, you say you spent some money on him, did you buy a Stone of Allure/Might? A Stone companion is critical in making a DPS-hybrid GF.
Also, myself and my guild will gladly run with an at least decent GF and we will go into ANY dungeon (ToS & CN will have slightly higher demands on a GF) with them. With my Conqueror in Timeless or KC set we can easily finish 2 dungeon runs within the hour, including two SPs (the most trash-infested T2) in an hour. If you ever need to run and can't find a group I'd gladly get on my DC, rope in some friends and run with you.
The sad state of this game;
On Sunday myself (GF), two GWF guildies and a guildie DC invited a CW into a SP run. First thing he said was ''Interesting party'' and then asked if we thought SP would be possible with this group, emphasising 3 melees with one of them being the red-headed step child of Neverwinter (my GF). We told him we had plenty experience with this composition. A few minutes into the run and the CW is falling off his chair due to the power and thus damage spikes he was receiving from my KC set, something he'd never seen. His reaction, from questioning the party composition and its potential for success to his reaction to the buffs, tells me that this chap had very, VERY little experience with GFs yet he so easily formulated a negative opinion about the class.
There are GFs out there that can get the job done in light of our limitations (mainly our sluggishness and sub-par class mechanic). We may not fit into the most "optimal" 15-minute dungeon clears, but then again currently only 2 classes (GWF & CW) and a token (DC) can pull that off.
I've only been playing a couple weeks now and have my T1 set, working on T2, full tank spec. From what I've experienced I find it hard to believe that they find this a viable upgrade by slightly increasing the threat we generate (which I have little problem gathering aggro now) and no addition to defense. Maybe it's just lack of experience but I tend to lose my shield extremely fast when I get the aggro I think I should be able maintain (everything lol) and die just as quickly. I could care less about the dmg output as this is not a focal point of a punching bag. I'm not going to compare classes here but I have yet to see a class that can't substitute my position as well as I can when I'm supposed to specialize in it. Shame on you development team... you should have reconsidered the gear and defense structure instead of nerfing what little dmg we do.
Being guilty of this particular sin myself, I will answer:
It is extremely counter-intuitive that a T1 set has such a grossly overpowered bonus. Also, because the tooltips are so obscure/wrong, calculating the benefit of added stats is non-inmediate. For the most part, people see the High General bonus and figure out that it must be the best, even though it only translates to a 3% damage increase at best. Intuitively, your mind simply resists the idea that a T1 set offers something like...20?? 30%? increase in damage. It is only after you do the math that you start to realize the dreadful truth, and even then, I am sure most people scrap the calculations thinking "there must be something I don't get".
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
This class the ( GF ) is like the non athletic kid in the neighborhood that's never picked for the weekend football/ baseball/ soccer/ softball game with the other kids unless someone is grounded and couldn't make it!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
No.
This was the first weekend I have had a full KC buff set as I only got the helm on Friday. Prior to that I had been running Timeless for over a month and I DD every weekend with my GF.
Believe it or not their are GFs out there that know what they are doing and can get into dungeons with guilds, friends or via the LFG channel. I have NEVER not gotten into a dungeon using either of those 3 methods and as a I pointed out, I have only had a full KC set for 5 days.
The shield is a weakness, what you need to learn to do is when and what to block. You only block attacks that prone or stun you and some of the big swings from elites/adds, otherwise you should be able to take everything in the mouth. NEVER just stand and block everything. The enemies telegraph their biggest hits/prones/stuns so you can literally see them winding up. You only block those. With experience you will learn what every monster in every dungeon can do and will thus know who and what to block.
Also, learn to position yourself in relation to the monsters. DO NOT use Enforced Threat and expect to survive when surrounded, as you will be giving up combat advantage and thus take more damage. If you pull a mob, position yourself so that the monsters are now all in front of you and make sure you turn them away from the party. Doing this lowers the damage you take and also gives your party combat advantage, so they do bonus damage to the enemies.
That said, they are also somewhat legitimately underpowered. So in the next module they will receive some improvements. Hopefully those of us that decided to remain loyal to the class will benefit the most. xD
Hi there!
Somewhat underpowered is the understatement of the day, for example look at us GFs, how long does it take to kill a Duergar Rider in GG, i nearly sleep in sometimes.
I wish your infos were correct and will come true, that with the next module things will be better, but i doubt it. Why?
1) Because the program code hasn't a single piece of improvement in it for us to this day, and the next module will come soon.
2)What is- according to inner sources- in it another "Legolas" sub-class and the Warlock, which will be like CW 2nd edition.
3)I know a guy-, who worked for Cryptic- and he says, that the company policy is, what is broken will be left on a B-line, you can play it, but no real programming work. Cryptic doesn't want to spend big money on talented programmers, they cost way too much for them, so lower profit income.
4)If someday they fix the GF, when will it be in 1 or 2 or even more years, come on guys, we don't live for ever, we don't get younger, and who knows where will be this game in a couple of years time.
Wait? Sure i will keep my GF and do the dailies and everything other with him, but i will do a 2nd character, maybe a GWF, because i like melee classes, and it has now good support from Cryptic.
And last but not least, this game doesn't favor the positive qualities, that we GFs have, like if we had a bard or a monk or so, it would be HAMSTER in this game style, where only sheer high DPS values count. This said it's the worst game style, where a melee shielded fighter is being reduced to null.
Bye!
Robert E. Lee
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