Forgive me if I sound rude, but there is NO reward big enough to get PvE players to seriously PvP. Not on that game, not on this game, not on any game. PvP has it's own rewards. bragging rights, being no1 for 8 months.. None of this will ever make a PvE player go PvP.
There are only 3 options:
1. You love it and you grudgingly do some PvE to get your gear (or none at all and you buy it)
2. You hate PvP, but are forced into it because of the rewards.These people will never return to PvP again once they have the rewards.
3. You like PvP enough to enjoy a match or 2 with some friends, but prefer to stick to PvE.
If you're 1, no problem.
If you're 2. tough nuggets. No choice but to get through it and hope it'll be over soon.
If you're 3, again, tough nuggets. The current pvp system is not for you. Wait till they figure out a way to balance it in whatever way works.
I love the gw2 structured pvp, its GREAT and i hate pvp in most games, I like it because its about skill not gear, this game, pvp for me is just as appealing as standing neck deep in raw sewage, if the other team is close to yours in specs in GG its fun, if not....as happens 999/1000 times, its just getting steamrolled for 15-20min with them spawn camping by the end of the round and the only real combat being when somebody from the other team gets into your spawn and you gotta kill them.
I agree with you, I normally hate pvp....but in gw2 structured pvp is fun, RvRvR sucks a giant walrus shelong, the games biggest flaw to me is that it was written with the dream of a xbox360 port (a dev as much as admitted this to us on zone/world chat one night)
the game has 3 heavy threads any time any one of them stalls even for an instant, the whole game bogs down to a slide show, making world events and RvRvR a slide show even on great hardware for alot of people(why i play alot less then i did when it came out)
PVE players enlarge do not like pvp, and NW style p2w pvp is the reason alot of us hate pvp, Infact I only do it for the glory because i want the artifact really bad.....even then, if i endup in domination against a premade, i will just quit and reque, i dont enjoy being steam rolled because I dont got maxed out pvp gear and a love for pvp..
gw2 splitting structured pvp into its own thing with normalized gear and level leaving your build up to you means its about skill not how much you spent or how much you grind...and for me that was fun...RvRvR.....could be fun if they fixed the perf(real reason every single person i know who has the game quit RvRvR....its no fun when you got an i7 980x 24gb ddr3 2400 and dual 6990's and you still get fps in the teens as soon as you get a bunch of people on screen.(thats my buddies system specs, he also has a 3960x with dual titans(he won the system in a contest) and same perf issues i get...
this games better but far from perfect.....i love this game, the pve is fun and challanging in dungeons, but....holy fook do i hate the pvp.....totally unbalanced....
mind you im in full champion mages with rank 7 and 8 runes, im not a "****".....yet the pvp is just horrible compared to GW2 structured pvp.....
zergs only apply in RvRvR not structured pvp and, GG is already zergs, so your point is invalid.
and just because you suck and cant finish dungeons in gw2, dosnt mean everybody has that issue, again the only part normalized is structured pvp, L2Read
RvRvR is pve gear based much like GG is and it like GG is a zerg fest, thats not what i was talking about(and you know it)
you clearly love the p2w system and, i would bet you are one of the people whos spent hundreds buying AD so you can gear up for pvp and "pwn noobs"
btw, mages can heal in gw2, most just dont bother, if you dont suck and L2P and dont try and play it like its WoW, you will have alot more fun, the only reason I dont play more, the perf sucks in World events and RvRvR so its no fun(like like malabogs with shadows on....)
I do love that you think RvRvR is really competitive pvp though....what a ****.
gw2 is not your typical WoW clone, sorry, reading you post clear that upsets you greatly....i suggest you go play some Aion or another WoW clone, you will like that better as you can P2W and feel good about yourself that way....(i have cleared every dungeon in gw2 with my mage and my friends, very few wipes and never did anybody endup nude....if you did....you really really really suck....or have no friends....or both.....
Annnnnd you want to normalize this game like GW2 lmao... And you with your infinite wisdom refer (because I disagree with you) to me as a casher and you have no idea who I am lmao... Just because YOU want to log into a game once in a while an be able to be "competitive" LIKE GW2 does is no reason not to reward the people willing to PLAY the game they enjoy many more hours than you... But YOU want to call me names and talk about me personally... YOU are the scrubs that we are trying to eliminate, or at least reduce.
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jazharaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
As I said, normalization means being forced to use "generic" gear, and such gear needs to have a little bit of everything to work. But that is bad because it makes abilities, feats and paragons meaningless. If half my gear contains attributes i don't "need" then my build is useless.
So all specialized builds get axed, so everyone would be forced to use the most efficient build relative to the normalized stats, so everyone would be playing the same build, essentially.
All games would become mirrored, stale, boring.
PvP would thus suck even more.
wrong, again, gw2 structured pvp isnt everybody using the same build, infact, its pretty mixed.
gwf's can run a few paths and be just as effective using the same gear, same with CW's, in a proper team you could have a healer that heals and does damnage/debuff, a cw who is about slows and actual controls OR about burst damage, TR pretty much all run the same build now as do most cw's(entangle, ava shard are the most common 2 skills, along with everybody running ice knife and sing because (once in a while somebody uses OF but not as much as sing and knife)
everybody uses the same pvp centric builds now, the only dif is that p2w folks(guessing your one by the attitude your giving about balancing pvp so everybody can have fun, because it would be about skill not gear) wouldnt be able to p2w pvp....they would be forced to use skill both in combat and in setting up their pvp builds. (the horror the horror....having to use skill rather then just paying 2 win!!!)
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jazharaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Annnnnd you want to normalize this game like GW2 lmao... And you with your infinite wisdom refer (because I disagree with you) to me as a casher and you have no idea who I am lmao... Just because YOU want to log into a game once in a while an be able to be "competitive" LIKE GW2 does is no reason not to reward the people willing to PLAY the game they enjoy many more hours than you... But YOU want to call me names and talk about me personally... YOU are the scrubs that we are trying to eliminate, or at least reduce.
gotcha pvp is the only reason to play the game, if you do anything but pvp end game you are doing it wrong.....
How is this different from our current situation? Every PvP TR runs perma stealth. Every PvP GWF has the same prone-stun-prone-can't kill me build. I fail to see how this is any different from true neutralization. I'm not in favor or against it per se, but one of the advantages of doing it would be that it becomes a skill to pvp. And only a skill. Skills can be learned, copied, practiced, maybe even perfected, but not if you die 2 hits in because of the 5k GS difference. It would do for the casual PvPer. Consider it a Junior league maybe?
I highlighted the problem for you.
Normalization is bad.
Gear Score brackets is good.
----
Its normal for people to carbon copy builds, if they're good. It is also normal for people to come up with new and improved builds that counter the generic builds everyone else is playing.
This is not possible with gear normalization.
Since the PvP scene is so prohibitive, given the GS discrepancy in battlegrounds, no pro players bother with Neverwinter, it's too much of a hassle. Especially when you have to PVE for your PVP gear.
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jazharaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
YOU are the scrubs that we are trying to eliminate, or at least reduce.
no problem give us a way to PVE earn our dailys and earn glory and you wont see any "Scrubs"(people who want to pve rather then pvp and p2w) in your unbalanced piece of HAMSTER pvp.....we would be happy to not have to waste time doing pvp to earn rewards, really we would.....anything to avoid people like yourself who want things unbalanced so you can "pwn noobz" .
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jazharaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Its normal for people to carbon copy builds, if they're good. It is also normal for people to come up with new and improved builds that counter the generic builds everyone else is playing.
This is not possible with gear normalization.
Since the PvP scene is so prohibitive, given the GS discrepancy in battlegrounds, no pro players bother with Neverwinter, it's too much of a hassle. Especially when you have to PVE for your PVP gear.
you are so full of HAMSTER, normalization of gear dosnt stop people from creating builds, you still have feats and powers and stats you can stack, you just cant buy AD from a gold seller and buy the best gear and rush into pvp and ****....because there is no uber gear to buy, no rank 10's or perfects, no t2 epics vs t1 or blues, brackets could work but would lead to problems with having enough people in each bracket to have balanced teams.
so what, in GG pvp you want people to que and never get in because the game cant match enough people up of the same bracket to get them going?
but again, give me another way to earn glory and GC and I will never pvp in this game again....ever....nothing you or the others suggest is going to balance pvp as long as people can p2w and clearly some people in this thread are p2w fans.
jazharaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2014
how about normalization of gear in pvp but having 4-6 set options for each person, and no runes/enchants involved, that would still normalize the gear score range, but allow you to only get the gear with the states you want.
naa because, that wouldnt be p2w and p2w is the only way pvp is fun, its only fun if you can run up and knock down/1 hit a mage, or back stab a another player 1 hitting them because, your gear is maxed out and theirs is a mix of drops and stuff they could afford from grinding for ad....
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jazharaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
PvP has always been P2W. Yes, you can actually work for your gear and get it the hard way. That said, PvPers bring in the most cash. Plain and simple. I'm not trying to offend Seddy1, for all I know (s)he worked for his/her gear. And when the server just opened, that was actually quite fun most of the time. All the PvPers were growing more or less at the same pace. Right now though, it's the old players ruining it for the newbies and vise versa. The gap is just too big. And maybe a "normalized" division for the casuals/ reward farmers wouldn't be such a bad idea. But if you're going to do that, you have to facilitate the other extreme as well.
got any proof pvpers buy more zen then pve players?
in my exp with Delz faction guilds most of them bought AD from gold sellers(wont link any of the ones they mentioned but, more then one spent over 500bucks to gear up for pvp, because grinding is stupid)
I would bet PvE players buy more zen honestly, or that its close between the play types, I will say, pvpers are more likely to buy "illegal" AD because you get 2x as much(or more) for your money, meaning they can spend less and get more, pve players in my exp tend to be the ones who want to grind dungeons and earn gear rather then just instantly be able to "own noobz"
because, theres really no "pwning noobz" in pve....unless you count damage or healing or damage taken or kills as "pwning" and i dont....but then, I dont enjoy the p2w pvp in this game so.....just give me glory for pve stuff so i can earn myself the skull and other pvp gear/items if i want, without being a "Scrub" in pvp who dosnt enjoy being HAMSTER by p2w folks.
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jazharaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2014
no you cant read, you could give 4-6 options of gear sets for each class even, allowing for various stat builds, but with everybody having free access to the same gear, the game would be balanced, clearly you are really really against this, because p2w is the best thing ever.
and the fact you think people are using hundreds of different builds for pvp is quite amusing....when pretty much every premade I see use the same skills and gear with very little veriation.....but hey, p2w is the best thing ever, after all, the end game for all mmo's is pvp and only pvp, and removing the p2w factor would destroy all that money p2w players have spent to "pwn noobz"
PvP has always been P2W. Yes, you can actually work for your gear and get it the hard way. That said, PvPers bring in the most cash. Plain and simple. I'm not trying to offend Seddy1, for all I know (s)he worked for his/her gear. And when the server just opened, that was actually quite fun most of the time. All the PvPers were growing more or less at the same pace. Right now though, it's the old players ruining it for the newbies and vise versa. The gap is just too big. And maybe a "normalized" division for the casuals/ reward farmers wouldn't be such a bad idea. It would allow people to grow, and maybe even have enough fun to try it a lvl higher. But if you're going to do that, you have to facilitate the other extreme as well. Meaning things like guild wars, bigger maps, different types of PVP, siege wars and even PvP foundry could be implemented to keep the "old guard" busy and get a challenge matching their skill.
I totally agree with you! Yes, I have a couple characters that are very well geared I worked **** hard to do it too. ( I still have over 2800 drake seals on my main and I buy gear from the vendor and salvage it..) I also think that the griefer that is doing a character attack on me personally, it is scrubs like them that ruin the game for everyone. I think separate groups for PvP is a solution. This clown wants to morph the gear into garbage because they played a classless game (meaning there are NO classes in gw2 everyone is everything) I think we always go backwards with "nerfs" in a game that cost REAL money to respec in. Oh but wait, I am a casher so why would it bother me to fork out money to respec? Because I DONT p2w... I hate PAY to Win because the people that FAIL at the game ASSUME because you are better than they EVER hope to be, obviously paid money to get there...
The gap is huge! no one person joining a PuG will turn the tide on a group of rank 10 enchants of which I OWN NONE... I am good with skill and movement and because I have played ALL the classes and KNOW, just as in PvE when you watch the bosses animations, what is coming next! I can't tell you how MANY times I have been Ice Knifed while unstoppable on my GWF or had a TR use Shocking execution while I am blocking on my GF... Everyone gets mad, and the PvP is failing because they do not know what they are looking at and that it has NO EFFECT, so your daily power is gone an the person you just KNEW you were going to wtfpwn... is beating you down. I have said over and over again, if ANYONE would bother to read, I think premade groups should go into their OWN category, and make the rewards sweet enough to drive everyone to want to try it. But leaving the casual players to PvP in peace. I am concerned with a GS based system because, for example a DC stacking power to preform well in PvE, which drives their GS through the roof decides he/she wants to have a go at PvP... then he/she gets tossed into the wolves den and doesn't have the pvp skill to compete. How is that fair? Their only chance is to find a PvP group. Which we all know are the most friendly right?
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jazharaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2014
change my mind seddy1 you make great points infact I posted a suggestion for Cryptic/PWE to just add uber pvp sets to the Zen store and cut out the middle men(ad sellers)
this would be win for cryptic/pwe as it would mean more zen sales, it would be win for PVP players like you as it would make it clear to everybody that the games P2W for pvp, and it would be win for PVE players because it would give us another way to get the pvp rewards(like the artifact) without having to grind P2W pvp that you insist is the only end game.
hell, cryptic should just split off NW pvp into its own game and give you the option to buy the best pvp gear directly OR grind it by doing lots of pvp(and getting HAMSTER by people with 5+k higher gear scores.
change my mind seddy1 you make great points infact I posted a suggestion for Cryptic/PWE to just add uber pvp sets to the Zen store and cut out the middle men(ad sellers)
this would be win for cryptic/pwe as it would mean more zen sales, it would be win for PVP players like you as it would make it clear to everybody that the games P2W for pvp, and it would be win for PVE players because it would give us another way to get the pvp rewards(like the artifact) without having to grind P2W pvp that you insist is the only end game.
hell, cryptic should just split off NW pvp into its own game and give you the option to buy the best pvp gear directly OR grind it by doing lots of pvp(and getting HAMSTER by people with 5+k higher gear scores.
Wow, I am sorry I didn't realize you cannot read... I have stated in NEARLY every post I am far from being a p2w person. I play the game as it was intended. I remember getting my HAMSTER handed to me back when GG was first released and building groups for the uber t-2 grim gear lmao... You are a sad puppy that wants to lump me into a group that, honestly, you sound like IF you could afford it, you would be there in a minute... There is not a lot to do "end game" in this game BUT work on gear... ppl like you that are new coming in here shooting off your mouth at things you have NO clue about to "win" and argument... Just wow, you blow me away... On a side note, you are Luskan? and talking about GG imbalances... it is NOT gear, it is the SHEER number of people imbalance, and thats something that we all are complaining about. If your a Del you are waiting in line HOPING to get to play pvp and if you are Luskan, you are dreading the beatdown you are about to get because NO one does anything but coin farm on luskan... It was a bad problem that has got WORSE after Dread Ring was released because even LESS Lusk's are GGing... I been here playing and will continue to enjoy my game, sounds like you, when ANYONE disagrees with you fly off the hook and start name calling... get a life pal, become part of the solution, not just another symptom. Need a towel for those tears?
*EDIT* I almost didn't comment on this because it will reveal that I am a female gamer but your comment "getting HAMSTER by people" is disgusting and obviously you are quite the loser big tough internet guy.... You are the reason you are single, alone, poor and mad did mommy and daddy turn off your wow subscription?... crying on a forum about cashers **** Maybe we will run into each other in Pvp and this girl can whoop that HAMSTER, and while you are laying on the floor, I will bend down an whisper in your ear, you just got WTFpwned by a chic Bahahahaha
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gowkaizerMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2Arc User
edited February 2014
Looking at the gear on the test server, it comes in a couple of flavors for each class.
Course that said... when you add in enchants... that trial at creating multiple tiers of variants for each class goes out the window.
Create a separate unrestricted PvP, and restricted PvP. Then it can become grinding and skill versus skill and load-out.
After all, the system is already in place for such a thing.
The multiple tiers of "PvP" armor. Restricting such armor to "restricted PvP" or just PvP only... would cause people to grind for more gear for PvE. Win-win for Cryptic's playbook.
The new PvP armors are not "normalized" but "specialized", two of them are heavy stat this way or that, one is little more balanced. The only ways to complain are the people who can't afford to change. They might have to rely more on adaptation to the scenario than running the same method over and over again.
THEN...with the Unrestricted PvP, let everyone go no holds barred. Give it some reward that people can grind for and make it require a lot of grinding EVEN IF they win. Probably some bonus points if they lose a match. Have it count matches won and loss, to balance brackets. The pros go to the top against other pros, the newbies have to scrap there way up against other newbies.
...and lets face it, the "Pros" can tend to bicker and break apart, and so newbies eventually come into place.
Could even role some of that bracket idea into the Restricted.
I would rather the game as a whole improve so that it continues with content down the road then get half-abandoned because of the boredom that sets in from constant domination or humiliation that eventually leads to nothing but frustration.
Also, lets face it. Cryptic can and will do whatever they want, so if they wanted to go RESTRICTED tomorrow, we could complain all we want and find a new game, or find a new way to dominate.
Either way, there tends to be little excitement in PvP these days do to the clear gear and enchant differential.
A PvP system that only allows players of similar gear level to fight each other sounds like the best way to balance things out. Not much you can do against people with gear that is leagues better then your own. I never understood why game don't do this more. Most casual players would play PvP more if they could enjoy it and have a good time. I will play PvP and PvE for as long as it's fun. I have been on teams that destroyed the other side easily and teams that have been completely destroyed. Neither is any fun. My best PvP matches and most fun ones have been when they are close. If casual players had a chance to learn what they need to do then they might get better and want to do it more. If you go into a match and get destroyed then you get feed up and don't play any more. It only hurts the PvP community not to have more balanced teams.
Until there is an actual competitive system, all this talk of 'pros' and 'skill' is, at best, adorable. At worst, eye-rolling. The sense of skill in a gear-centric system is for people who depend on that crutch to remain competitive. They'll be the strongest opponents to any real balance.
The changes coming up soon are a step in the right direction, I think.
A PvP system that only allows players of similar gear level to fight each other sounds like the best way to balance things out. Not much you can do against people with gear that is leagues better then your own. I never understood why game don't do this more. Most casual players would play PvP more if they could enjoy it and have a good time. I will play PvP and PvE for as long as it's fun. I have been on teams that destroyed the other side easily and teams that have been completely destroyed. Neither is any fun. My best PvP matches and most fun ones have been when they are close. If casual players had a chance to learn what they need to do then they might get better and want to do it more. If you go into a match and get destroyed then you get feed up and don't play any more. It only hurts the PvP community not to have more balanced teams.
The problem is that some classes have more innate gs than others and since gs is the only ranking of gear it would still be imbalanced. A 15k gs GF for example might only be the equivalent of a 12k gs tr. This is why no matter how many times people talk about gs brackets it can never work. The only way to have it work would be to give each piece of gear and enchantment an item level. But that's a fairly large redesign that would effect pve as well and would take a lot of work on the dev's part. The upcoming Elo system will work much better in theory as after the first few matches and people start moving up in brackets you will start playing with people who's skill and gear is closer to yours based on how many matches they've won / lost. This means that as you start getting better gear as time goes along you are also going to seamlessly move up and not be guy with 12001 gs in the 12-15k bracket as well, because lets face it, even with gs brackets people at the low end would still be complaining. Gear is probably the worst way to do a matchmaking system as it has so many flaws and ways to beat the system to grief people that the dev's would have to program around. An Elo system is a much more elegant fix to the problem.
-edit- reply to Seddy
As for finding pvp groups/guilds, if you allow the arena to be spectacled by a limited no of people -we don't want a lagfest due to 150 players in ghost mode- and you shine during some matches, it would give them a reason to come to you. You have a skill they want, and you know they can help you improve. Sounds like a win-win to me. And it doesn't have to be fully GS based. Just leave out the gear part. You're going to have to earn that or buy it. (that goes for newbies of course, old players can keep what they have and never bother with that division in the first place). And once you have the better gear and learned to play better, why would you bother with a division that would strip you of your gear and replace it with basic gear? Time for the big league folks!
I would suggest 4 stages.
1. keep the pvp up to 60 as it is. let's face it: it's mostly for fun and a little AD. no biggie
2. 60's Squires: Basic pvp gear only (maybe the current glory set?)
3. 60's Calvary : T2 pvp only (GG?)
4. 60's legends: All gear allowed. (maybe a T3 set through the Zen store?)
Stage 2 rep earns you stage 3 gear etc. This would also cure the pre-made problem. You want guild vs guild? fine. Agree on the stage and sign up. select the guild from the challengers list, accept on both sides and do your thing.
Each stage can have their own War of the Gods, Raids, sieges, ranking systems and what not.
However you want to expand it, you have to have some brackets first. If GS is too variable figure something out. Worst case, do as I suggested. THEN focus on expanding the possibilities. More maps, more game types etc.
See, if you could just clone yourself like by a few thousand maybe we could figure this stuff out. We need ppl that are part of the solution, not mouthers that are part of the problem. I have decent gear on some of my players, and really nice gear on others, and I have been beat down by people that had more skill than I could bring to the table with junk gear. people like you that put their ideas out there and say hey look at this (which I did something similar by suggesting making the rewards for premades going head to head better with bragging titles they can stand around in PE showing off.) I do NOT think everyone that is a decent player is dropping money into the game, I buy outfits, stuff to dress my people in, I buy mounts, a waste of money? yup but its MY money. I have agreed with you all along that the current state of the PvP game is bad and unbalanced. I think it is unrealistic to think cryptic is going to make nominal armor and stats in a free to play game. GW2 everything is normalized, pvp and pvp gear is the same so gw doesn't "create" anything. But I do feel making the rewards better to entice the hardcores into fighting with one another, while letting the rest of us pvp in relative peace would be nice. Or make another way to get 24k glory for the artifacts, or make the bloodcrystal something you can obtain outside of pvp and make a artifact with the new Tenacity stats for pvpers? idk but I have had my fill of the name calling inside of the game and the ppl in this forum are not much better.
You made a lot of great posts, thank for that
mod note: this thread has been cleaned up. let's remember that pay to win discussions, also known as p2w arguments, are not allowed in the neverwinter forums per the forum rules of conduct. personal attacks including the attacking of one's opinions are also against the forum rules.
if you have any questions about these rules or this moderation note, do not reply to this post. send a PM instead. thanks.
i too feel like there needs to be a separation between gs because i want the raven skull but i really dont feel like doing 100,000 matches of me getting steamrolled and out of that maybe 20 are good matches just to get it. if you ask me theres just too many higher geared players that skill no longer matters in pvp its just prone prone prone prone and more prone i feel like pvping i'm like a hakysack being kicked around.
heck the prone is one of the only reasons even higher tiered teams even beat me half the time. Because the current state of pvp is 2x IV gwf 1 cleric and whoever else is there is pretty irrelevent.
all the tenacity in the world wont solve this because even if i have all the dodges in the world too they will catch me with one of them and then i will die.
i literally only do 2 matches at a time because i start to get crazy and no longer wish to do it.
i want to pvp i really do but as it stands theres no point to it all even for the raven skull unless i too get bis for the gwf which is a class i really dont feel is a skill class its more of a absent mindedly smash to the ground and slap class which is the only 3 skills they usually use same rotation every time regardless of what i might do.
pure definition of insanity.
i used to hate the tr back in the day with a passion but that has switched full tilt to the gwf can i hurt them? Not really. Do i try as hard as i can to? Yes, but to no avail.
Because if people leave looking for easy wins rather than a close match so that they can farm glory faster, you won't be able to get close good matches regardless of your skill level. You can occassionaly get a good 4v5 match even though it sucks for the 4 man team, but once you get to 3v5 the game is over. Since so many people try to get groups that steamroll for quick glory rather than having a quick match, a leaver penalty has unfortunately become required at this point.
GL for those top pvp'ers who remain and dominate. To the wannabes, stick to pve.
Frighteningly arrogant comment.
We are ''wannabes'' because this game pits us (with our normal enchants and rank 6s) against PvP-specific builds featuring rank 8+ and greater/perfect enchants.
Before going all 133t on the player take a look at how the game is designed.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
Because if people leave looking for easy wins rather than a close match so that they can farm glory faster, you won't be able to get close good matches regardless of your skill level. You can occassionaly get a good 4v5 match even though it sucks for the 4 man team, but once you get to 3v5 the game is over. Since so many people try to get groups that steamroll for quick glory rather than having a quick match, a leaver penalty has unfortunately become required at this point.
If I think I've lost I've lost. As there is no "surrender" button I am forced to choose between sitting at the campfire or taking leavers penalty or being fodder.
I think that a "leavers penalty" is a very bad idea. A lot of other things have to made before this should be even considered.
Imaginary Friends are the best friends you can have!
The AD rewards for doing PvP will be removed substituting them with appropriate PVP specific rewards. Hopefully a new way to get the artifact is added (or artifact changed) so this also will remove the necessity to "force" people into PvP.
These changes will mean that people will do PVP because they want to do PVP, bot for PVE reason. At this point, with the matchmaking system in place the leavers penalty is more than sensible as it keeps people in check and avoids the farmers/ragers to ruin otehr people's experience.
I'm all about the penalty, if applied together with all the other changes, ELO system being the most important.
For those who cry that they will get the penalty "unjustly" because them might have to leave the match because of RL:
- you can't find 15 minutes to play an online game without interruptions? what about when doing a dungeon? maybe yo ushould paly a different game?
- you have a RL emergency? How does a leavers penalty really bother you in this case? it should be really irrelevant at this point...
.... keeps people in check and avoids the farmers/ragers to ruin otehr people's experience.
You do not really seem to care that you are ruining MY experience of the game, no?
Why no leavers penalty in PvE then? Ruins others experience, as well. A DC that rage quits after an hour in SP might ruin the experience of the dungeon crawling group I expect that the fist 2 leavers of a PvE group get at least triple the penalty of a PvP leaver. Account wide.
If someone finds a grain of sarcasm in this post he or she may keep it.
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Comments
I love the gw2 structured pvp, its GREAT and i hate pvp in most games, I like it because its about skill not gear, this game, pvp for me is just as appealing as standing neck deep in raw sewage, if the other team is close to yours in specs in GG its fun, if not....as happens 999/1000 times, its just getting steamrolled for 15-20min with them spawn camping by the end of the round and the only real combat being when somebody from the other team gets into your spawn and you gotta kill them.
I agree with you, I normally hate pvp....but in gw2 structured pvp is fun, RvRvR sucks a giant walrus shelong, the games biggest flaw to me is that it was written with the dream of a xbox360 port (a dev as much as admitted this to us on zone/world chat one night)
the game has 3 heavy threads any time any one of them stalls even for an instant, the whole game bogs down to a slide show, making world events and RvRvR a slide show even on great hardware for alot of people(why i play alot less then i did when it came out)
PVE players enlarge do not like pvp, and NW style p2w pvp is the reason alot of us hate pvp, Infact I only do it for the glory because i want the artifact really bad.....even then, if i endup in domination against a premade, i will just quit and reque, i dont enjoy being steam rolled because I dont got maxed out pvp gear and a love for pvp..
gw2 splitting structured pvp into its own thing with normalized gear and level leaving your build up to you means its about skill not how much you spent or how much you grind...and for me that was fun...RvRvR.....could be fun if they fixed the perf(real reason every single person i know who has the game quit RvRvR....its no fun when you got an i7 980x 24gb ddr3 2400 and dual 6990's and you still get fps in the teens as soon as you get a bunch of people on screen.(thats my buddies system specs, he also has a 3960x with dual titans(he won the system in a contest) and same perf issues i get...
this games better but far from perfect.....i love this game, the pve is fun and challanging in dungeons, but....holy fook do i hate the pvp.....totally unbalanced....
mind you im in full champion mages with rank 7 and 8 runes, im not a "****".....yet the pvp is just horrible compared to GW2 structured pvp.....
wrong, again, gw2 structured pvp isnt everybody using the same build, infact, its pretty mixed.
gwf's can run a few paths and be just as effective using the same gear, same with CW's, in a proper team you could have a healer that heals and does damnage/debuff, a cw who is about slows and actual controls OR about burst damage, TR pretty much all run the same build now as do most cw's(entangle, ava shard are the most common 2 skills, along with everybody running ice knife and sing because (once in a while somebody uses OF but not as much as sing and knife)
everybody uses the same pvp centric builds now, the only dif is that p2w folks(guessing your one by the attitude your giving about balancing pvp so everybody can have fun, because it would be about skill not gear) wouldnt be able to p2w pvp....they would be forced to use skill both in combat and in setting up their pvp builds. (the horror the horror....having to use skill rather then just paying 2 win!!!)
gotcha pvp is the only reason to play the game, if you do anything but pvp end game you are doing it wrong.....
I highlighted the problem for you.
Normalization is bad.
Gear Score brackets is good.
----
Its normal for people to carbon copy builds, if they're good. It is also normal for people to come up with new and improved builds that counter the generic builds everyone else is playing.
This is not possible with gear normalization.
Since the PvP scene is so prohibitive, given the GS discrepancy in battlegrounds, no pro players bother with Neverwinter, it's too much of a hassle. Especially when you have to PVE for your PVP gear.
no problem give us a way to PVE earn our dailys and earn glory and you wont see any "Scrubs"(people who want to pve rather then pvp and p2w) in your unbalanced piece of HAMSTER pvp.....we would be happy to not have to waste time doing pvp to earn rewards, really we would.....anything to avoid people like yourself who want things unbalanced so you can "pwn noobz" .
you are so full of HAMSTER, normalization of gear dosnt stop people from creating builds, you still have feats and powers and stats you can stack, you just cant buy AD from a gold seller and buy the best gear and rush into pvp and ****....because there is no uber gear to buy, no rank 10's or perfects, no t2 epics vs t1 or blues, brackets could work but would lead to problems with having enough people in each bracket to have balanced teams.
so what, in GG pvp you want people to que and never get in because the game cant match enough people up of the same bracket to get them going?
but again, give me another way to earn glory and GC and I will never pvp in this game again....ever....nothing you or the others suggest is going to balance pvp as long as people can p2w and clearly some people in this thread are p2w fans.
naa because, that wouldnt be p2w and p2w is the only way pvp is fun, its only fun if you can run up and knock down/1 hit a mage, or back stab a another player 1 hitting them because, your gear is maxed out and theirs is a mix of drops and stuff they could afford from grinding for ad....
got any proof pvpers buy more zen then pve players?
in my exp with Delz faction guilds most of them bought AD from gold sellers(wont link any of the ones they mentioned but, more then one spent over 500bucks to gear up for pvp, because grinding is stupid)
I would bet PvE players buy more zen honestly, or that its close between the play types, I will say, pvpers are more likely to buy "illegal" AD because you get 2x as much(or more) for your money, meaning they can spend less and get more, pve players in my exp tend to be the ones who want to grind dungeons and earn gear rather then just instantly be able to "own noobz"
because, theres really no "pwning noobz" in pve....unless you count damage or healing or damage taken or kills as "pwning" and i dont....but then, I dont enjoy the p2w pvp in this game so.....just give me glory for pve stuff so i can earn myself the skull and other pvp gear/items if i want, without being a "Scrub" in pvp who dosnt enjoy being HAMSTER by p2w folks.
and the fact you think people are using hundreds of different builds for pvp is quite amusing....when pretty much every premade I see use the same skills and gear with very little veriation.....but hey, p2w is the best thing ever, after all, the end game for all mmo's is pvp and only pvp, and removing the p2w factor would destroy all that money p2w players have spent to "pwn noobz"
The gap is huge! no one person joining a PuG will turn the tide on a group of rank 10 enchants of which I OWN NONE... I am good with skill and movement and because I have played ALL the classes and KNOW, just as in PvE when you watch the bosses animations, what is coming next! I can't tell you how MANY times I have been Ice Knifed while unstoppable on my GWF or had a TR use Shocking execution while I am blocking on my GF... Everyone gets mad, and the PvP is failing because they do not know what they are looking at and that it has NO EFFECT, so your daily power is gone an the person you just KNEW you were going to wtfpwn... is beating you down. I have said over and over again, if ANYONE would bother to read, I think premade groups should go into their OWN category, and make the rewards sweet enough to drive everyone to want to try it. But leaving the casual players to PvP in peace. I am concerned with a GS based system because, for example a DC stacking power to preform well in PvE, which drives their GS through the roof decides he/she wants to have a go at PvP... then he/she gets tossed into the wolves den and doesn't have the pvp skill to compete. How is that fair? Their only chance is to find a PvP group. Which we all know are the most friendly right?
this would be win for cryptic/pwe as it would mean more zen sales, it would be win for PVP players like you as it would make it clear to everybody that the games P2W for pvp, and it would be win for PVE players because it would give us another way to get the pvp rewards(like the artifact) without having to grind P2W pvp that you insist is the only end game.
hell, cryptic should just split off NW pvp into its own game and give you the option to buy the best pvp gear directly OR grind it by doing lots of pvp(and getting HAMSTER by people with 5+k higher gear scores.
*EDIT* I almost didn't comment on this because it will reveal that I am a female gamer but your comment "getting HAMSTER by people" is disgusting and obviously you are quite the loser big tough internet guy.... You are the reason you are single, alone, poor and mad did mommy and daddy turn off your wow subscription?... crying on a forum about cashers
Course that said... when you add in enchants... that trial at creating multiple tiers of variants for each class goes out the window.
Create a separate unrestricted PvP, and restricted PvP. Then it can become grinding and skill versus skill and load-out.
After all, the system is already in place for such a thing.
The multiple tiers of "PvP" armor. Restricting such armor to "restricted PvP" or just PvP only... would cause people to grind for more gear for PvE. Win-win for Cryptic's playbook.
The new PvP armors are not "normalized" but "specialized", two of them are heavy stat this way or that, one is little more balanced. The only ways to complain are the people who can't afford to change. They might have to rely more on adaptation to the scenario than running the same method over and over again.
THEN...with the Unrestricted PvP, let everyone go no holds barred. Give it some reward that people can grind for and make it require a lot of grinding EVEN IF they win. Probably some bonus points if they lose a match. Have it count matches won and loss, to balance brackets. The pros go to the top against other pros, the newbies have to scrap there way up against other newbies.
...and lets face it, the "Pros" can tend to bicker and break apart, and so newbies eventually come into place.
Could even role some of that bracket idea into the Restricted.
I would rather the game as a whole improve so that it continues with content down the road then get half-abandoned because of the boredom that sets in from constant domination or humiliation that eventually leads to nothing but frustration.
Also, lets face it. Cryptic can and will do whatever they want, so if they wanted to go RESTRICTED tomorrow, we could complain all we want and find a new game, or find a new way to dominate.
Either way, there tends to be little excitement in PvP these days do to the clear gear and enchant differential.
To absent friends
The changes coming up soon are a step in the right direction, I think.
You made a lot of great posts, thank for that
if you have any questions about these rules or this moderation note, do not reply to this post. send a PM instead. thanks.
heck the prone is one of the only reasons even higher tiered teams even beat me half the time. Because the current state of pvp is 2x IV gwf 1 cleric and whoever else is there is pretty irrelevent.
all the tenacity in the world wont solve this because even if i have all the dodges in the world too they will catch me with one of them and then i will die.
i literally only do 2 matches at a time because i start to get crazy and no longer wish to do it.
i want to pvp i really do but as it stands theres no point to it all even for the raven skull unless i too get bis for the gwf which is a class i really dont feel is a skill class its more of a absent mindedly smash to the ground and slap class which is the only 3 skills they usually use same rotation every time regardless of what i might do.
pure definition of insanity.
i used to hate the tr back in the day with a passion but that has switched full tilt to the gwf can i hurt them? Not really. Do i try as hard as i can to? Yes, but to no avail.
Because if people leave looking for easy wins rather than a close match so that they can farm glory faster, you won't be able to get close good matches regardless of your skill level. You can occassionaly get a good 4v5 match even though it sucks for the 4 man team, but once you get to 3v5 the game is over. Since so many people try to get groups that steamroll for quick glory rather than having a quick match, a leaver penalty has unfortunately become required at this point.
Frighteningly arrogant comment.
We are ''wannabes'' because this game pits us (with our normal enchants and rank 6s) against PvP-specific builds featuring rank 8+ and greater/perfect enchants.
Before going all 133t on the player take a look at how the game is designed.
I think that a "leavers penalty" is a very bad idea. A lot of other things have to made before this should be even considered.
These changes will mean that people will do PVP because they want to do PVP, bot for PVE reason. At this point, with the matchmaking system in place the leavers penalty is more than sensible as it keeps people in check and avoids the farmers/ragers to ruin otehr people's experience.
I'm all about the penalty, if applied together with all the other changes, ELO system being the most important.
For those who cry that they will get the penalty "unjustly" because them might have to leave the match because of RL:
- you can't find 15 minutes to play an online game without interruptions? what about when doing a dungeon? maybe yo ushould paly a different game?
- you have a RL emergency? How does a leavers penalty really bother you in this case? it should be really irrelevant at this point...
Why no leavers penalty in PvE then? Ruins others experience, as well. A DC that rage quits after an hour in SP might ruin the experience of the dungeon crawling group I expect that the fist 2 leavers of a PvE group get at least triple the penalty of a PvP leaver. Account wide.
If someone finds a grain of sarcasm in this post he or she may keep it.