There are bad-people, lazy freeloaders, yes. But overall there are a lot more people who honestly enjoy PvP. These people usually don't quit at all unless the odds are absolutely overwhelmingly against them.
So, when does a PuG meet overwhelming odds?
...
Premades.
The way the game is in, is due to no fault of the players. But, it must be said there are players who make things even worse -- instead of trying to set things even as a whole, just exploit the reality and thus, drive people into defeatism. Premades are classic examples.
Don't listen to their two-bit excuses in how they enjoy playing together as friends blabla, because that's all horseshi*. Frankly, the real reason why premades make premades, is because they know they are going to win. It's simply an egomaniacal drive.
* They know the chances of actually meeting another well-formed premade, in this random queue is very low.
* They know for a fact, that their chances of meeting a random PuG is very high.
* They know when they meet a PuG, they will simply crush them.
* They don't play PvP for PvP. They play PvP as premades because it feeds their egos.
* In other words, premades don't PvP for PvP. They do it to grief others. Intentionally or unwillingly, no matter.
* The end result is the same -- they force the match into such uneven grounds, that they break it.
* There is no "competition" or "mind games" in premades. Its simply a display of raw power.
I can guarantee that when you force premade queues to only meet premade queues, things are going to really, noticeably change. Any party with more than 3-people in it that queues, should only meet other queues with the same condition.
What do you think will happen when the premades will always meet another premades, who are at least as much or even more, skilled/geared/class composed/organized as themselves?
THEY DON'T PvP ANYMORE. That's the uncomfortable truth with premades.
Seen it happening in other games, guarantee it'll happen here.
Ofcourse, the really dedicated PvP guilds will absolutely love this, since they'll always meet real competition. Forcing premade queues to meet premade queues simply culls the griefers from the ranks, and benefits people who really do enjoy a good fight.
So, now everyone is happy. PuGs meet only PuGs, PvP queue is totally random so they will never meet the ROFLSTOMP griefer premades, individual skilled players are rotated around in random queues, so in the long run the fights are more or less equalled out. The PvP-oriented premades who long for real competition will always meet a group on par.
Frankly, anyone who would object to this simply means that person WANTS to fight lesser, weaker people on purpose. They WANT to be at uneven grounds, which is why they make their premades in the first place. Which is exactly why forcing a premade queue (or making a separate "team battle" queue), will stick a nice, huge middle finger up their pompous, griefing arses.
I can bet my left nut that once this is implemented, people will actually be much happier, and notice an immdediate change in how PvP fights go.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
There are bad-people, lazy freeloaders, yes. But overall there are a lot more people who honestly enjoy PvP. These people usually don't quit at all unless the odds are absolutely overwhelmingly against them.
So, when does a PuG meet overwhelming odds?
...
Premades.
I can tell you about when I go "premade" with guild group or friends (not true premade, not communicating etc.).
I usually pug alone, to make things a bit even through luck. But sometimes... it is too much for a poor CW to take. Examples:
- pugs go all at homebase
- pugs roam around, points red, I as CW have to step on point, get obliterated, instead of providing support
- pugs won't backcap, I have to do it, get obliterated again, even if I kill 1-2 guys
- etc. etc. etc.
There is a variety of reasons like these that keep repeating and repeating and just get on my nerves to the point where I accept invite to PvP or join guild group, and feel safe that the above won't happen.
Now, to be honest, I didn't start knowing many things I know now, and keep learning; but I had the will to go on forums, and read advice from better&more experienced players, so I get better.
But pugs?
If I tell GWF "Please backcap" and explain wtf is that, he will curse at me. If I ask politely "please stay on point" they will curse at me. If I tell pugs "Please put pressure on enemy CW so he will not rain destruction on our heads", they will curse at me again, or even worse, fail to kill the CW as a GWF or TR, which is shameful.
So there's this limit one reaches. When I reach it, I just go in safe group with friends or guild.
And if you think these groups are hunting newbies, you would be wrong, at least from my experience. They are formed by people that look for a match that is balanced and fun. Most of the times there are no premades to play against, or the ones that would play outclass your casual "premade" by a very large margin. So all that is left... is to queue and hope for the best. Needless to say this is kinda hopeless, only 1/20 or so matches are good...
I can tell you about when I go "premade" with guild group or friends (not true premade, not communicating etc.).
I usually pug alone, to make things a bit even through luck. But sometimes... it is too much for a poor CW to take. Examples:
- pugs go all at homebase
- pugs roam around, points red, I as CW have to step on point, get obliterated, instead of providing support
- pugs won't backcap, I have to do it, get obliterated again, even if I kill 1-2 guys
- etc. etc. etc.
There is a variety of reasons like these that keep repeating and repeating and just get on my nerves to the point where I accept invite to PvP or join guild group, and feel safe that the above won't happen.
Now, to be honest, I didn't start knowing many things I know now, and keep learning; but I had the will to go on forums, and read advice from better&more experienced players, so I get better.
But pugs?
If I tell GWF "Please backcap" and explain wtf is that, he will curse at me. If I ask politely "please stay on point" they will curse at me. If I tell pugs "Please put pressure on enemy CW so he will not rain destruction on our heads", they will curse at me again, or even worse, fail to kill the CW as a GWF or TR, which is shameful.
So there's this limit one reaches. When I reach it, I just go in safe group with friends or guild.
And if you think these groups are hunting newbies, you would be wrong, at least from my experience. They are formed by people that look for a match that is balanced and fun. Most of the times there are no premades to play against, or the ones that would play outclass your casual "premade" by a very large margin. So all that is left... is to queue and hope for the best. Needless to say this is kinda hopeless, only 1/20 or so matches are good...
This is very well said. It's said that so many people don't understand the want to run with people you know that aren't _______'s.
I can tell you about when I go "premade" with guild group or friends (not true premade, not communicating etc.).
I usually pug alone, to make things a bit even through luck. But sometimes... it is too much for a poor CW to take. Examples:
- pugs go all at homebase
- pugs roam around, points red, I as CW have to step on point, get obliterated, instead of providing support
- pugs won't backcap, I have to do it, get obliterated again, even if I kill 1-2 guys
- etc. etc. etc.
There is a variety of reasons like these that keep repeating and repeating and just get on my nerves to the point where I accept invite to PvP or join guild group, and feel safe that the above won't happen.
Now, to be honest, I didn't start knowing many things I know now, and keep learning; but I had the will to go on forums, and read advice from better&more experienced players, so I get better.
But pugs?
If I tell GWF "Please backcap" and explain wtf is that, he will curse at me. If I ask politely "please stay on point" they will curse at me. If I tell pugs "Please put pressure on enemy CW so he will not rain destruction on our heads", they will curse at me again, or even worse, fail to kill the CW as a GWF or TR, which is shameful.
So there's this limit one reaches. When I reach it, I just go in safe group with friends or guild.
And if you think these groups are hunting newbies, you would be wrong, at least from my experience. They are formed by people that look for a match that is balanced and fun. Most of the times there are no premades to play against, or the ones that would play outclass your casual "premade" by a very large margin. So all that is left... is to queue and hope for the best. Needless to say this is kinda hopeless, only 1/20 or so matches are good...
Every single detail you mention is simply irrelvant. The only thing that matters is the end-result.
One simple truth of the reality of PvP:
<< Be it intentional or unintentional, on purpose or not, conscious or unconscious, based on the reality of average-grade of PuG queues, premades unbalance the fighting conditions and should never be fighting PuGs in the first place, period. >>
It doesn't matter if the New York Yankees have a heart of gold. Whatever the color of their heart is, should not be participating in a little league event.
If there are no premades to play against, then (assuming) the players really love PvP, they should break up the team in random queues so they fight amongst themselves. Good players should be proliferated throughout the random queues.
I don't operate with my guild in the first place, but even if I do have a more PvP-active guild I would not be playing in premades, because anyone who says they love PvP, and then start go making premades, is simply a farce. They're killing what they say they love. They don't love PvP, they love only winning in PvP.
Operating in PuGs has its consequences, since most of them are clueless and weak. When you're surrounded by 4 idiots in a team, no matter how good you are, ultimately you only do as good as your team can. This random queue, in a very ironical way, is ultimately the most fair form of team-composition in the current reality of the game. To make premades in this environment means to "rig the match" in the first place, so you end up always as the winner (unless by clandestine luck you meet a premade that is as good as yourselves, which, remind you, is unlikely thing to happen without a separate team-battle queue).
I'd gladly take up premades and actively make ones IF the ranking system is implemented, since that'll mean I'll be fighting alongside, and against, those on par with my own skill level.
But otherwise, in this current form of queue/matchmaking, making a premade is inherently (almost as if) cheating the game. Anyone who PvPs because he loves PvP, should know better. It's simply no different from exploiting dungeons and speed-running the content.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Every single detail you mention is simply irrelvant. The only thing that matters is the end-result.
One simple truth of the reality of PvP:
<< Be it intentional or unintentional, on purpose or not, conscious or unconscious, based on the reality of average-grade of PuG queues, premades unbalance the fighting conditions and should never be fighting PuGs in the first place, period. >>
It doesn't matter if the New York Yankees have a heart of gold. Whatever the color of their heart is, should not be participating in a little league event.
If there are no premades to play against, then (assuming) the players really love PvP, they should break up the team in random queues so they fight amongst themselves. Good players should be proliferated throughout the random queues.
I don't operate with my guild in the first place, but even if I do have a more PvP-active guild I would not be playing in premades, because anyone who says they love PvP, and then start go making premades, is simply a farce. They're killing what they say they love. They don't love PvP, they love only winning in PvP.
Operating in PuGs has its consequences, since most of them are clueless and weak. When you're surrounded by 4 idiots in a team, no matter how good you are, ultimately you only do as good as your team can. This random queue, in a very ironical way, is ultimately the most fair form of team-composition in the current reality of the game. To make premades in this environment means to "rig the match" in the first place, so you end up always as the winner (unless by clandestine luck you meet a premade that is as good as yourselves, which, remind you, is unlikely thing to happen without a separate team-battle queue).
I'd gladly take up premades and actively make ones IF the ranking system is implemented, since that'll mean I'll be fighting alongside, and against, those on par with my own skill level.
But otherwise, in this current form of queue/matchmaking, making a premade is inherently (almost as if) cheating the game. Anyone who PvPs because he loves PvP, should know better. It's simply no different from exploiting dungeons and speed-running the content.
This is a really good point I agree. Queing with a friend or something isnt a big deal but when most of the opposing team is a premade that just creates a large imbalance of itself for multiple reasons in that match.
As far as leaver penalty. IF the ELO system is introduced, there wont be a need for a leaver penalty then, at least one with such high consequences. A minor leaver penalty I can see and understand.
Overall, the key issue is pretty much the matchmaking system, with a proper matchmaking system that spreads people into sub divisions and have seperate queues for people queing thats more than 2. (WHICH I HAVE BEEN SAYING SINCE MAY OF LAST YEAR!!! ) and most the qualms of pvp will be rectified. Most.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Every single detail you mention is simply irrelvant. The only thing that matters is the end-result.
One simple truth of the reality of PvP:
<< Be it intentional or unintentional, on purpose or not, conscious or unconscious, based on the reality of average-grade of PuG queues, premades unbalance the fighting conditions and should never be fighting PuGs in the first place, period. >>
It doesn't matter if the New York Yankees have a heart of gold. Whatever the color of their heart is, should not be participating in a little league event.
If there are no premades to play against, then (assuming) the players really love PvP, they should break up the team in random queues so they fight amongst themselves. Good players should be proliferated throughout the random queues.
I don't operate with my guild in the first place, but even if I do have a more PvP-active guild I would not be playing in premades, because anyone who says they love PvP, and then start go making premades, is simply a farce. They're killing what they say they love. They don't love PvP, they love only winning in PvP.
Operating in PuGs has its consequences, since most of them are clueless and weak. When you're surrounded by 4 idiots in a team, no matter how good you are, ultimately you only do as good as your team can. This random queue, in a very ironical way, is ultimately the most fair form of team-composition in the current reality of the game. To make premades in this environment means to "rig the match" in the first place, so you end up always as the winner (unless by clandestine luck you meet a premade that is as good as yourselves, which, remind you, is unlikely thing to happen without a separate team-battle queue).
I'd gladly take up premades and actively make ones IF the ranking system is implemented, since that'll mean I'll be fighting alongside, and against, those on par with my own skill level.
But otherwise, in this current form of queue/matchmaking, making a premade is inherently (almost as if) cheating the game. Anyone who PvPs because he loves PvP, should know better. It's simply no different from exploiting dungeons and speed-running the content.
I agree that premades should not play pugs 100%. But it's the game fault cause it allows it.
The other MMO I played a lot dealt with this situation in a VERY good way, so good as there were never such concerns. Lemme explain.
- there were unranked practice matches for those wanting to have a taste at PvP. This is basically what we have here in NWO. Nobody cared about them.
- there were a few ladders, with different types of ranked matches. You HAD to register an Arena team to enter the ranked Arenas. The team could have replacements, no problem. The matches were ranked and you ended up with a ladder position but also a personal rank as well. Ladders were public. Leaders of ladders got awesome rewards each season, this lead up to lots of competition, making the game into an e-sport.
- there were brackets and very good matchmaking based on these rankings
Basically, this meant that an Arena team (hence, a premade...) ALWAYS and without exception met another Arena team (another premade). There was no way for random pugs to get into the matches, everybody had to register their team. Random pugs could just run unranked Arenas or Battlegrounds... and nobody cared about those.
Every single detail you mention is simply irrelvant. The only thing that matters is the end-result.
One simple truth of the reality of PvP:
<< Be it intentional or unintentional, on purpose or not, conscious or unconscious, based on the reality of average-grade of PuG queues, premades unbalance the fighting conditions and should never be fighting PuGs in the first place, period. >>
It doesn't matter if the New York Yankees have a heart of gold. Whatever the color of their heart is, should not be participating in a little league event.
If there are no premades to play against, then (assuming) the players really love PvP, they should break up the team in random queues so they fight amongst themselves. Good players should be proliferated throughout the random queues.
I don't operate with my guild in the first place, but even if I do have a more PvP-active guild I would not be playing in premades, because anyone who says they love PvP, and then start go making premades, is simply a farce. They're killing what they say they love. They don't love PvP, they love only winning in PvP.
Operating in PuGs has its consequences, since most of them are clueless and weak. When you're surrounded by 4 idiots in a team, no matter how good you are, ultimately you only do as good as your team can. This random queue, in a very ironical way, is ultimately the most fair form of team-composition in the current reality of the game. To make premades in this environment means to "rig the match" in the first place, so you end up always as the winner (unless by clandestine luck you meet a premade that is as good as yourselves, which, remind you, is unlikely thing to happen without a separate team-battle queue).
I'd gladly take up premades and actively make ones IF the ranking system is implemented, since that'll mean I'll be fighting alongside, and against, those on par with my own skill level.
But otherwise, in this current form of queue/matchmaking, making a premade is inherently (almost as if) cheating the game. Anyone who PvPs because he loves PvP, should know better. It's simply no different from exploiting dungeons and speed-running the content.
Hummm, there is much true, but you have one mistake, doing pvp is about wining. No one do PVP because he want to lose !
The main problem came from the developers of all of this kind of MMOs, because they make the game for making money. So they do not want ppl to come and to leave, but prefer to come. So the system must do balance between this 2 things. And we all know all kind of trying for balance everywhere and not only here.
I think that there must have 2 kind of PVP.
One with reward and only PUGs
And one without reward where the player can join only with party vs random party or vs other party by choice for fun.
______
About that you said for that the premade cheat the game ... no.
In same direction I can said that when you make party to go to any epic and difficult dungeon you cheat because you choose your party members because you do not want noobie player in your party with 8k GS because you will fail the dungeon.
Premade group have party play. They think as one team, not everyone for himself. They help each other. They sometimes use TS or something to talk....Tell me that you do not do the same for any hard dungeon with your party ? ...
I wholeheartedly agree with everything said about PUGs vs. premades. The matchmaking can only do so much, it simply shouldn't be possible.
Give the hardcores a ladder and let them take it out in a completely different environment. Tenacity and the leavers penalty are such horrible workarounds.
I wholeheartedly agree with everything said about PUGs vs. premades. The matchmaking can only do so much, it simply shouldn't be possible.
Give the hardcores a ladder and let them take it out in a completely different environment. Tenacity and the leavers penalty are such horrible workarounds.
I fully agree Premade queue and Pug queue with elo is all that is needed.
Leaver penalty will only feeds the premade griefers but will really just end up making people stand by the camp fire.If then you force the campers onto the field of battle you really are just feeding the griefers and will force players to just stop pvping.
we need some common sense here. Premades want to fight premades .Pugs want to fight pugs. Its not complicated.
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jazharaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
If I think I've lost I've lost. As there is no "surrender" button I am forced to choose between sitting at the campfire or taking leavers penalty or being fodder.
I think that a "leavers penalty" is a very bad idea. A lot of other things have to made before this should be even considered.
i would just camp at fire even if there was a ramp, sit there and chat with my guild let them kill me, either way, sooner the round ends the more glory can farm, the sooner i can get my companion and artifact, the sooner i can stop pvping.
give me another way to buy the arti+companion and i wont ruin your pvp experiance....
Hummm, there is much true, but you have one mistake, doing pvp is about wining. No one do PVP because he want to lose !
You're confusing the concept of competition, and the initial team composition. Of course, when once the game starts, as long as it is not a blatant exploit of a bug or a cheat, then you do anything necessary to win the game. Ganking, griefing, ambushes, trickery.. anything. But that only applies within the game.
In other words, you could have the dirtiest, messiest, most foul, penalty-ridden boxing match in history and that still wouldn't matter. However, totally irrelevant to how the fight progresses, there is no boxing match that pits a featherweight to fight against a middleweight or a heavyweight, ever. You give the two players an equal chance to match the weight division. Whatever they do, they start off as roughly the same weight just before the fight.
Team composition in PvP, is like this weight division. You first keep things even, and then leave the rest to how the people fight it out.
About that you said for that the premade cheat the game ... no.
In same direction I can said that when you make party to go to any epic and difficult dungeon you cheat because you choose your party members because you do not want noobie player in your party with 8k GS because you will fail the dungeon.
PvE isn't a competition. Totally irrelevant, and impossible to compare. After all, mobs don't complain and quit the game, do they?
Premade group have party play. They think as one team, not everyone for himself. They help each other. They sometimes use TS or something to talk....Tell me that you do not do the same for any hard dungeon with your party ? ...
Again, totally irrelevant. The New York Yankees love team play. They're probably all fun-loving players who like working as a team. Does this fact have anything to do with how they should be not allowed to participate in Little League games? Absolutely not.
Premades don't belong in random queues because they kill all competition. End of story.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2014
kweassa, you're right with the fact that premades should not face pugs.
Yet it's the game's fault that allows it, and because humans have an exploitative nature, this will continue to happen.
I have proposed a simple fix, I will write it down again:
- unranked matches for pugs, just to have a taste of PvP
- ladders for different ranked match styles: 2v2, 3vs3, 5vs5 etc.
- REQUIREMENT for those entering ranked matches: REGISTER TEAM. Teams can have subs, in case not everybody is online etc.
Individual rank for player
Team rank
There you go, fixed.
Do not rely on human kindness to solve this issue. Premades will continue to stomp pugs all day everyday if allowed to. As I mentioned, I don't like it, I usually queue alone or with a friend, but when my tolerance for idiots runs thin, I will join guild group and NOT have fun at all while stomping pugs.
Sidenote for pugs that don't know what to do: most players don't hold it against you if you're not geared (however, with blues being 80 AD and r5s so cheap, there's no excuse showing with 8K GS).
What we hold against you is:
- you run around like a headless chicken and do nothing. A pug yesterday ran from node to node avoiding all fights...
- you don't understand your role at all. You are a GWF/TR, but never try to backcap. You're a CW that casts AoEs in PvP, Icy Terrain and Steal Time (wtf guys?!?). You're a DC trying to kill people while your team is murdered. You play off point chasing perma while all points are red.
YOU GO CAP HOME INSTEAD OF RUSHING MID!!!!!!!!
I understand knowledge of PvP doesn't appear overnight. But guys? Read a guide. Ask a better player.
- you run around like a headless chicken and do nothing. A pug yesterday ran from node to node avoiding all fights...
There is nothing wrong with this strategy especially for the weaker, undergeared player.
If my 8k CW in blues stands still and tries to fight your 16k regen sent GWF, I'm gonna get crushed.
But if my 8k CW is on his mount, being chased by the 16k regen sent GWF on his mount, then the odds are a lot more in my favor. Because it's no longer 8k vs 16k, it's mount vs mount.
This is a function of the broken matchmaking system and the minimum point score needed for glory. If I had some assurance, via a sensible matchmaking system, that I could reasonably expect 500 pts during a regular match by following the usual PVP strategies, then I'd do that. As it stands now, since I have no idea if I'm gonna have a competitive match or if I'm gonna get steamrolled by a premade, and if my primary motivation is to farm glory and/or daily ADs, it makes much more sense to rush to home base for a "free" 300 points, out of the 500 needed for minimum glory. If I rush immediately to mid under these conditions, I risk not being able to earn the 500 pts needed.
I think a really simple fix would be to just make separate queues for premades and pugs. If a premade queues for pvp it automatically gets queued against other premades, same for pugs. I dont think that's hard to do, and you don't even need rankings, elo, or anything else. It wouldn't completely fix the problem (you could still have to face vastly differently geared opponents) but until the elo system gets here it could be a quick efficient fix.
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twstdechoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 630Bounty Hunter
edited February 2014
I was in a pug today. I was the only person in my group that took off for point two. EVERYONE OTHER MEMBER went to our point. So, I turned around, not wanting to be the sacrificial lamb.
It actually turned out well, as the other team took point 2, moved up to ours while they had one back on theirs, we took them out 5-4 and took point 2 and overall control of the match.
I was in a pug today. I was the only person in my group that took off for point two. EVERYONE OTHER MEMBER went to our point. So, I turned around, not wanting to be the sacrificial lamb.
It actually turned out well, as the other team took point 2, moved up to ours while they had one back on theirs, we took them out 5-4 and took point 2 and overall control of the match.
Still... what the heck?
People are scared that the match will turn to **** right off the bat and want that guaranteed 300 pts even if they aren't total noobs. It is certainly preferable that all your team run to the middle, but it's not a death sentence for the match if the do not. Often on my cw I'm the only one to run to the middle, I just repel the first one, entangle the 2nd, then teleport my happy *** back 3 times hop on my horse and run the hell away and go to there point. Usually more than one chase and my 4 teammates who went to home base get to roll into the middle and take it.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
There is nothing wrong with this strategy especially for the weaker, undergeared player.
If my 8k CW in blues stands still and tries to fight your 16k regen sent GWF, I'm gonna get crushed.
But if my 8k CW is on his mount, being chased by the 16k regen sent GWF on his mount, then the odds are a lot more in my favor. Because it's no longer 8k vs 16k, it's mount vs mount.
This is a function of the broken matchmaking system and the minimum point score needed for glory. If I had some assurance, via a sensible matchmaking system, that I could reasonably expect 500 pts during a regular match by following the usual PVP strategies, then I'd do that. As it stands now, since I have no idea if I'm gonna have a competitive match or if I'm gonna get steamrolled by a premade, and if my primary motivation is to farm glory and/or daily ADs, it makes much more sense to rush to home base for a "free" 300 points, out of the 500 needed for minimum glory. If I rush immediately to mid under these conditions, I risk not being able to earn the 500 pts needed.
We played together, I know for sure you understand the logic behind these elementary strats.
- the guy I was talking about was running from EVERYONE. Yes he was a CW. He engaged only when we caught with him. It was lame and cowardly.
- it's PvP, we all die, hell, I played matches where I ended up 7:40 or so. So while you must try to avoid death, it doesn't meant this is the purpose of the game. The purpose of the game is capping&holding.
- play as if you want to win always. if you get steamrolled, just ask to trade caps. Whatever you do, don't play detrimental to your team. Going all to homebase is the WORST strat EVER. They get mid and come to destroy you. When I queue with some friends and we see them all at home, we are pretty much disgusted, and we know there's gonna be a massacre there. It's a bad strat. I know you understand. Screw those 300 points, team winning is more important. And yeah, sometimes you have to risk.
And even with all these things said... to be honest, if you get steamrolled, you probably gonna quit. So why not try get mid? If you fail, and face a premade of very geared guys... trade caps... or leave I suppose. I left my fair share of dumb matches and not afraid to say it. When "premade" lies to you about 1 vs 1 just to gank you 5 vs 1 below spawn, there's no reason I should stay. And yeah... I leave almost always leave when my team goes to home. I just don't want to play with selfish people.
Simple fix for pvp is force devs to play pvp for at least 2 hours a day and see how they like getting thier asses handed to them by the unbalanced class.
There is no such thing as Pleather Armor.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Simple fix for pvp is force devs to play pvp for at least 2 hours a day and see how they like getting thier asses handed to them by the unbalanced class.
I'm not sure they can handle another PvP session after the last time...
Yes I understand the logic. But it is logic that flows from a PVP-oriented point of view. From another point of view, farming PVP for glory is like farming CN for rings. In either case, it's not "playing to win", i.e., playing to actually win the match, or queueing for CN in order to actually defeat Draco.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Yes I understand the logic. But it is logic that flows from a PVP-oriented point of view. From another point of view, farming PVP for glory is like farming CN for rings. In either case, it's not "playing to win", i.e., playing to actually win the match, or queueing for CN in order to actually defeat Draco.
Yeah man, but at one point, you might wanna stop farming rings and go for the Ancient weapon sets, yes? It's just how things evolve naturally.
As I said, it's PvP, it's not a tragedy if you die/wipe, you res and continue. In PvP, a side wins. You gotta play for the win.
BTW as a CW if you get Hotenow (I think), just run on top of pillars if you're not geared/tanky enough. It will save you from quick annihilation most times. You can usually help your team better from there as a squishy.
Running mid doesn't have to be suicidal. There are pillars and all kinds of places you can hide to regen a bit/allow a debuff to expire etc.
Simple fix for pvp is force devs to play pvp for at least 2 hours a day and see how they like getting thier asses handed to them by the unbalanced class.
They have and they left matches as well XD ...not trolling...sad but true.
1- Need at least 3 Tieres of PVP, like in dungeons: 8300 min gs, 11000 min gs and 14000min gs, and ajust glory and ads gain to the tier...
2- More MAPS!! and more pvp styles, like "last alive wins" and "top killer wins", not just ctf.
3- Some T2 gear for TONS of glory, like 25k per piece...
4- TAKE ALL GLORY from quiters inventory and give it to charity
5- 1v1 duels are extremly needed
6- Maybe some sort of system to pre-arrange guilds combats, so we can fight against another guilds and not just random players.
where can i sign this? oh... /SIGN ... and in this order please maybe guild fights a bit higher, maybe 3
-Don't allow in a PVP group to have more than one guy of the same class, why because when a class is Op-unbalanced-borken at least we don't have to suffer too many of them.
-Make a difference between magic dammage source and physical dammage source to balance the class.
Magic dammage should be moore efficient against a physical dammage user and less efficient against a magical caster.
-Remove all form of immunity or give one for all class.
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twstdechoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 630Bounty Hunter
-Don't allow in a PVP group to have more than one guy of the same class, why because when a class is Op-unbalanced-borken at least we don't have to suffer too many of them.
Groups can make themselves up of whatever classes they want. Restricting this is nonsensical and boring. If you think the toughest group is 2 gwf's, 2 DC's and a CW, build that party yourself and roll with it.
-Make a difference between magic dammage source and physical dammage source to balance the class.
Magic dammage should be moore efficient against a physical dammage user and less efficient against a magical caster.
I've suggested this before, but without a PvP impact. I don't think we need this for PvP.
-Remove all form of immunity or give one for all class.
I think the upcoming "mod 3" changes will fix things and extend fights enough.
Comments
There are bad-people, lazy freeloaders, yes. But overall there are a lot more people who honestly enjoy PvP. These people usually don't quit at all unless the odds are absolutely overwhelmingly against them.
So, when does a PuG meet overwhelming odds?
...
Premades.
The way the game is in, is due to no fault of the players. But, it must be said there are players who make things even worse -- instead of trying to set things even as a whole, just exploit the reality and thus, drive people into defeatism. Premades are classic examples.
Don't listen to their two-bit excuses in how they enjoy playing together as friends blabla, because that's all horseshi*. Frankly, the real reason why premades make premades, is because they know they are going to win. It's simply an egomaniacal drive.
* They know the chances of actually meeting another well-formed premade, in this random queue is very low.
* They know for a fact, that their chances of meeting a random PuG is very high.
* They know when they meet a PuG, they will simply crush them.
* They don't play PvP for PvP. They play PvP as premades because it feeds their egos.
* In other words, premades don't PvP for PvP. They do it to grief others. Intentionally or unwillingly, no matter.
* The end result is the same -- they force the match into such uneven grounds, that they break it.
* There is no "competition" or "mind games" in premades. Its simply a display of raw power.
I can guarantee that when you force premade queues to only meet premade queues, things are going to really, noticeably change. Any party with more than 3-people in it that queues, should only meet other queues with the same condition.
What do you think will happen when the premades will always meet another premades, who are at least as much or even more, skilled/geared/class composed/organized as themselves?
THEY DON'T PvP ANYMORE. That's the uncomfortable truth with premades.
Seen it happening in other games, guarantee it'll happen here.
Ofcourse, the really dedicated PvP guilds will absolutely love this, since they'll always meet real competition. Forcing premade queues to meet premade queues simply culls the griefers from the ranks, and benefits people who really do enjoy a good fight.
So, now everyone is happy. PuGs meet only PuGs, PvP queue is totally random so they will never meet the ROFLSTOMP griefer premades, individual skilled players are rotated around in random queues, so in the long run the fights are more or less equalled out. The PvP-oriented premades who long for real competition will always meet a group on par.
Frankly, anyone who would object to this simply means that person WANTS to fight lesser, weaker people on purpose. They WANT to be at uneven grounds, which is why they make their premades in the first place. Which is exactly why forcing a premade queue (or making a separate "team battle" queue), will stick a nice, huge middle finger up their pompous, griefing arses.
I can bet my left nut that once this is implemented, people will actually be much happier, and notice an immdediate change in how PvP fights go.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I can tell you about when I go "premade" with guild group or friends (not true premade, not communicating etc.).
I usually pug alone, to make things a bit even through luck. But sometimes... it is too much for a poor CW to take. Examples:
- pugs go all at homebase
- pugs roam around, points red, I as CW have to step on point, get obliterated, instead of providing support
- pugs won't backcap, I have to do it, get obliterated again, even if I kill 1-2 guys
- etc. etc. etc.
There is a variety of reasons like these that keep repeating and repeating and just get on my nerves to the point where I accept invite to PvP or join guild group, and feel safe that the above won't happen.
Now, to be honest, I didn't start knowing many things I know now, and keep learning; but I had the will to go on forums, and read advice from better&more experienced players, so I get better.
But pugs?
If I tell GWF "Please backcap" and explain wtf is that, he will curse at me. If I ask politely "please stay on point" they will curse at me. If I tell pugs "Please put pressure on enemy CW so he will not rain destruction on our heads", they will curse at me again, or even worse, fail to kill the CW as a GWF or TR, which is shameful.
So there's this limit one reaches. When I reach it, I just go in safe group with friends or guild.
And if you think these groups are hunting newbies, you would be wrong, at least from my experience. They are formed by people that look for a match that is balanced and fun. Most of the times there are no premades to play against, or the ones that would play outclass your casual "premade" by a very large margin. So all that is left... is to queue and hope for the best. Needless to say this is kinda hopeless, only 1/20 or so matches are good...
Every single detail you mention is simply irrelvant. The only thing that matters is the end-result.
One simple truth of the reality of PvP:
<< Be it intentional or unintentional, on purpose or not, conscious or unconscious, based on the reality of average-grade of PuG queues, premades unbalance the fighting conditions and should never be fighting PuGs in the first place, period. >>
It doesn't matter if the New York Yankees have a heart of gold. Whatever the color of their heart is, should not be participating in a little league event.
If there are no premades to play against, then (assuming) the players really love PvP, they should break up the team in random queues so they fight amongst themselves. Good players should be proliferated throughout the random queues.
I don't operate with my guild in the first place, but even if I do have a more PvP-active guild I would not be playing in premades, because anyone who says they love PvP, and then start go making premades, is simply a farce. They're killing what they say they love. They don't love PvP, they love only winning in PvP.
Operating in PuGs has its consequences, since most of them are clueless and weak. When you're surrounded by 4 idiots in a team, no matter how good you are, ultimately you only do as good as your team can. This random queue, in a very ironical way, is ultimately the most fair form of team-composition in the current reality of the game. To make premades in this environment means to "rig the match" in the first place, so you end up always as the winner (unless by clandestine luck you meet a premade that is as good as yourselves, which, remind you, is unlikely thing to happen without a separate team-battle queue).
I'd gladly take up premades and actively make ones IF the ranking system is implemented, since that'll mean I'll be fighting alongside, and against, those on par with my own skill level.
But otherwise, in this current form of queue/matchmaking, making a premade is inherently (almost as if) cheating the game. Anyone who PvPs because he loves PvP, should know better. It's simply no different from exploiting dungeons and speed-running the content.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
This is a really good point I agree. Queing with a friend or something isnt a big deal but when most of the opposing team is a premade that just creates a large imbalance of itself for multiple reasons in that match.
As far as leaver penalty. IF the ELO system is introduced, there wont be a need for a leaver penalty then, at least one with such high consequences. A minor leaver penalty I can see and understand.
Overall, the key issue is pretty much the matchmaking system, with a proper matchmaking system that spreads people into sub divisions and have seperate queues for people queing thats more than 2. (WHICH I HAVE BEEN SAYING SINCE MAY OF LAST YEAR!!! ) and most the qualms of pvp will be rectified. Most.
I agree that premades should not play pugs 100%. But it's the game fault cause it allows it.
The other MMO I played a lot dealt with this situation in a VERY good way, so good as there were never such concerns. Lemme explain.
- there were unranked practice matches for those wanting to have a taste at PvP. This is basically what we have here in NWO. Nobody cared about them.
- there were a few ladders, with different types of ranked matches. You HAD to register an Arena team to enter the ranked Arenas. The team could have replacements, no problem. The matches were ranked and you ended up with a ladder position but also a personal rank as well. Ladders were public. Leaders of ladders got awesome rewards each season, this lead up to lots of competition, making the game into an e-sport.
- there were brackets and very good matchmaking based on these rankings
Basically, this meant that an Arena team (hence, a premade...) ALWAYS and without exception met another Arena team (another premade). There was no way for random pugs to get into the matches, everybody had to register their team. Random pugs could just run unranked Arenas or Battlegrounds... and nobody cared about those.
So there you go, this is how you fix PvP.
Hummm, there is much true, but you have one mistake, doing pvp is about wining. No one do PVP because he want to lose !
The main problem came from the developers of all of this kind of MMOs, because they make the game for making money. So they do not want ppl to come and to leave, but prefer to come. So the system must do balance between this 2 things. And we all know all kind of trying for balance everywhere and not only here.
I think that there must have 2 kind of PVP.
One with reward and only PUGs
And one without reward where the player can join only with party vs random party or vs other party by choice for fun.
______
About that you said for that the premade cheat the game ... no.
In same direction I can said that when you make party to go to any epic and difficult dungeon you cheat because you choose your party members because you do not want noobie player in your party with 8k GS because you will fail the dungeon.
Premade group have party play. They think as one team, not everyone for himself. They help each other. They sometimes use TS or something to talk....Tell me that you do not do the same for any hard dungeon with your party ? ...
Give the hardcores a ladder and let them take it out in a completely different environment. Tenacity and the leavers penalty are such horrible workarounds.
I fully agree Premade queue and Pug queue with elo is all that is needed.
Leaver penalty will only feeds the premade griefers but will really just end up making people stand by the camp fire.If then you force the campers onto the field of battle you really are just feeding the griefers and will force players to just stop pvping.
we need some common sense here.
Premades want to fight premades .Pugs want to fight pugs. Its not complicated.
i would just camp at fire even if there was a ramp, sit there and chat with my guild let them kill me, either way, sooner the round ends the more glory can farm, the sooner i can get my companion and artifact, the sooner i can stop pvping.
give me another way to buy the arti+companion and i wont ruin your pvp experiance....
You're confusing the concept of competition, and the initial team composition. Of course, when once the game starts, as long as it is not a blatant exploit of a bug or a cheat, then you do anything necessary to win the game. Ganking, griefing, ambushes, trickery.. anything. But that only applies within the game.
In other words, you could have the dirtiest, messiest, most foul, penalty-ridden boxing match in history and that still wouldn't matter. However, totally irrelevant to how the fight progresses, there is no boxing match that pits a featherweight to fight against a middleweight or a heavyweight, ever. You give the two players an equal chance to match the weight division. Whatever they do, they start off as roughly the same weight just before the fight.
Team composition in PvP, is like this weight division. You first keep things even, and then leave the rest to how the people fight it out.
PvE isn't a competition. Totally irrelevant, and impossible to compare. After all, mobs don't complain and quit the game, do they?
Again, totally irrelevant. The New York Yankees love team play. They're probably all fun-loving players who like working as a team. Does this fact have anything to do with how they should be not allowed to participate in Little League games? Absolutely not.
Premades don't belong in random queues because they kill all competition. End of story.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Yet it's the game's fault that allows it, and because humans have an exploitative nature, this will continue to happen.
I have proposed a simple fix, I will write it down again:
- unranked matches for pugs, just to have a taste of PvP
- ladders for different ranked match styles: 2v2, 3vs3, 5vs5 etc.
- REQUIREMENT for those entering ranked matches: REGISTER TEAM. Teams can have subs, in case not everybody is online etc.
Individual rank for player
Team rank
There you go, fixed.
Do not rely on human kindness to solve this issue. Premades will continue to stomp pugs all day everyday if allowed to. As I mentioned, I don't like it, I usually queue alone or with a friend, but when my tolerance for idiots runs thin, I will join guild group and NOT have fun at all while stomping pugs.
Sidenote for pugs that don't know what to do: most players don't hold it against you if you're not geared (however, with blues being 80 AD and r5s so cheap, there's no excuse showing with 8K GS).
What we hold against you is:
- you run around like a headless chicken and do nothing. A pug yesterday ran from node to node avoiding all fights...
- you don't understand your role at all. You are a GWF/TR, but never try to backcap. You're a CW that casts AoEs in PvP, Icy Terrain and Steal Time (wtf guys?!?). You're a DC trying to kill people while your team is murdered. You play off point chasing perma while all points are red.
YOU GO CAP HOME INSTEAD OF RUSHING MID!!!!!!!!
I understand knowledge of PvP doesn't appear overnight. But guys? Read a guide. Ask a better player.
Try to LEARN&IMPROVE.
There is nothing wrong with this strategy especially for the weaker, undergeared player.
If my 8k CW in blues stands still and tries to fight your 16k regen sent GWF, I'm gonna get crushed.
But if my 8k CW is on his mount, being chased by the 16k regen sent GWF on his mount, then the odds are a lot more in my favor. Because it's no longer 8k vs 16k, it's mount vs mount.
This is a function of the broken matchmaking system and the minimum point score needed for glory. If I had some assurance, via a sensible matchmaking system, that I could reasonably expect 500 pts during a regular match by following the usual PVP strategies, then I'd do that. As it stands now, since I have no idea if I'm gonna have a competitive match or if I'm gonna get steamrolled by a premade, and if my primary motivation is to farm glory and/or daily ADs, it makes much more sense to rush to home base for a "free" 300 points, out of the 500 needed for minimum glory. If I rush immediately to mid under these conditions, I risk not being able to earn the 500 pts needed.
It actually turned out well, as the other team took point 2, moved up to ours while they had one back on theirs, we took them out 5-4 and took point 2 and overall control of the match.
Still... what the heck?
People are scared that the match will turn to **** right off the bat and want that guaranteed 300 pts even if they aren't total noobs. It is certainly preferable that all your team run to the middle, but it's not a death sentence for the match if the do not. Often on my cw I'm the only one to run to the middle, I just repel the first one, entangle the 2nd, then teleport my happy *** back 3 times hop on my horse and run the hell away and go to there point. Usually more than one chase and my 4 teammates who went to home base get to roll into the middle and take it.
We played together, I know for sure you understand the logic behind these elementary strats.
- the guy I was talking about was running from EVERYONE. Yes he was a CW. He engaged only when we caught with him. It was lame and cowardly.
- it's PvP, we all die, hell, I played matches where I ended up 7:40 or so. So while you must try to avoid death, it doesn't meant this is the purpose of the game. The purpose of the game is capping&holding.
- play as if you want to win always. if you get steamrolled, just ask to trade caps. Whatever you do, don't play detrimental to your team. Going all to homebase is the WORST strat EVER. They get mid and come to destroy you. When I queue with some friends and we see them all at home, we are pretty much disgusted, and we know there's gonna be a massacre there. It's a bad strat. I know you understand. Screw those 300 points, team winning is more important. And yeah, sometimes you have to risk.
And even with all these things said... to be honest, if you get steamrolled, you probably gonna quit. So why not try get mid? If you fail, and face a premade of very geared guys... trade caps... or leave I suppose. I left my fair share of dumb matches and not afraid to say it. When "premade" lies to you about 1 vs 1 just to gank you 5 vs 1 below spawn, there's no reason I should stay. And yeah... I leave almost always leave when my team goes to home. I just don't want to play with selfish people.
I'm not sure they can handle another PvP session after the last time...
Yeah man, but at one point, you might wanna stop farming rings and go for the Ancient weapon sets, yes? It's just how things evolve naturally.
As I said, it's PvP, it's not a tragedy if you die/wipe, you res and continue. In PvP, a side wins. You gotta play for the win.
BTW as a CW if you get Hotenow (I think), just run on top of pillars if you're not geared/tanky enough. It will save you from quick annihilation most times. You can usually help your team better from there as a squishy.
Running mid doesn't have to be suicidal. There are pillars and all kinds of places you can hide to regen a bit/allow a debuff to expire etc.
>> are all INSTANCES
>> have no leaver penalties
>> does not have leaderboards / player rankings
>> contains absolutely no guild contests for territories, etc.
I don't see the reason why anyone sane would take it seriously.
They have and they left matches as well XD ...not trolling...sad but true.
where can i sign this? oh... /SIGN ... and in this order please
-Don't allow in a PVP group to have more than one guy of the same class, why because when a class is Op-unbalanced-borken at least we don't have to suffer too many of them.
-Make a difference between magic dammage source and physical dammage source to balance the class.
Magic dammage should be moore efficient against a physical dammage user and less efficient against a magical caster.
-Remove all form of immunity or give one for all class.
Answers above.