Honestly, the cooldown on TR is short enough to not even need to rely on animation cancelling to fight other classes. Animation cancelling simply turns an already hard hitting at will into a machinegun. And you can do it without losing an ounce of stamina, which is ridiculous.
Yeah Ive been playing lately without anim cancel just cause I know itll get fixed soon enough, dont even need to do it...
I mean what is a CW gonna do to me when I TR him? Choke? Dont make me laugh, maybe when hes done patting me on the back with that encounter, ill be kind enough to put him out of his misery before he hurts himself off of my Sharandar deflect boon and kills himself...
Its to the point that my GWF isnt even fun beacuse its just so easy mode... Been playing my buddies CW lately for a real challenge and let me tell you....
I read through this thread because I (CW and TR) have a really hard time against top (geared) GWFs (I fought GodSon once - gosh, did he whoop my butt).
I read some helpful tips, but the thing that surprises me the most is your bit of attacking a GWF (preferably with at-wills, so your encounters are ready when he's out of Unstoppable) in Unstoppable. With CW as my first class, I read somewhere that I shouldn't attack a GWF in Unstoppable at all. I don't remember anymore what the reasoning was, but maybe I just understood it wrong, lol.
Anyways, thanks for this tip.
When you tepel him-cc-DPS him, then he goes unstoppable, you can still at-will him. Avoid his prones and attack with your at-wills. DoT damage is also a good thing. You don't have to use your encounters when he's in unstoppable, and you don't have to spam at-wills when he's out of unstoppable. The reasons, i explained above. At-will during unstoppable do not build him any determination, and help you reducing his regeneration. Obviously, this applies to ranged classes or TRs attacking from the distance while stealthed, or in ITC). Np, i just try to give some insight to players from other classes.
First: i have already posted many changes to GWF to reduce some OP aspects, expecially of tank builds. You missed them? Your bad. They are written above.
Second: my name in-game is written in my signature. You can easily look for me in-game and challenge me directly. I PvP regulary, and against people with any gear, any class, any guild. You have a GWF? I'm Always in for some training. Either i lose or win, there's something to learn.
Third: you assume too much. And troll too much. I'm not "scared" about anything. As i already did with previous changes, i'm already looking forward to the changes, and already thinking about how to adapt. I'm just discussing here and trying to give some insight to people that find it difficult to deal with some aspects of the GWFs.
If i really have to complain about something, it's this attitude of people like you, who just have to troll out, not even trying to read what i wrote in previous posts, suggesting what to change in GWFs to reduce their "OPness" in some areas. Yet' you ASSUME i'm saying GWFs are fine and must not be touched. Learn to read, may be.
Again, you should know how i already suggested changes to GWFs. You basically said that yes, it's important to time your damage (what i said) but there are other things that are too powerful on GWFs (things i already suggested changes for). I already said how TR must not be spammable, how ArP should go from CON to STR, how determination should be based on % of damage taken to make it less effective on high HP tank builds.
I also made a thread time ago explaining people in detail what are the weak spots of GWFs and how to fight be more effective against them.
Yet now i'm "trying to not have my class nerfed".
Too bad you guys anim-cancel SPAM Threatening Rush.
Too bad i already made posts (one is in this thread, and the first is like months old, i made it shortly after module 2 release) talking about how threat rush must not be spammable. Along with the other changes mentioned above.
Which is a Whole different matter from the very specific explanation i gave about unstoppable not being spammable if you use the right tactics. Are those tactics difficult to apply due to other things that must be changed? I already discussed those things. But if you say that there's a problem in unstoppable itself, well, it is not. To me, the problems/ things to change are Others, and already explained which ones, countless times.
Also, unstoppable applies to destroyers, and swordmasters. So, you can't think about generically "change" or "nerf" it, cause TR makes GWF close the gaps easily.
You guys bring in everything, making no distinction, and i try to make you understand that you can make changes to specific builds, specific paths, but not to a Whole class, just cause you have problems with one specific path or build.
Yet, it's like people don't read at all. Guess it's just impossible to discuss the matter, and i really have no time to waste, trying to bring reason to the raging reactions of you guys.
To be honest, you guys should keep doing it for as long as it will be possible.
It's pretty frightening as a CW to have one of the good GWFs in the game, fully equipped and with that nice shiny perfect vorpal sword - always sticking to you like glue. And you obviously have to stop as a CW, and cast long animation spells, EF, Shard etc. and taking big damage each time is quite guaranteed.
As things are now, I view (good) GWFs like elite shocktroops in a war. You send them to placate the enemy, crush their souls, so they have no longer a desire to wage war on you :P One ubersoldier that takes with him 5 enemies before dying.
And I said it quite a few times before, I honestly don't think GWFs should get a nerf. I don't think any of you guys feel this is an unenjoyable playstyle, most GWFs I know have a blast playing this game. All that is needed is to bring the other classes up to par.
"Did I mention that? Mark crits from threatening rush also apply SotS to all targets that get marked. AoE Debuffing.
What this all comes down to is that Threatening Rush is your easy button. Just hold it down or if you could abuse it by sprint cancelling. It does everything, hits hard, closes the gap, AoE Marks and Debuffs, Buffs your weapon master faster, add large amount of bonus damage. The prone chain is a killer in PvP, but I think people might be surprised to see just how much damage a GWF is putting out with Threatening Rush not to mention TR is the reason the prone chain does so much damage."
I do think GWFs should be capable of potentially high burst damage, but there should be a counter to it. It should be high enough that standing right in front a GWF face tanking them should be a bad idea. The problem is TR makes it too easy to make sure anyone to want right next to you is right next to you. It is nearly uncounterable damage and makes setting up your prone chain almost too easy. I don't want to see GWFs nerfed back to the days of negligible damage (unless you had Tenebrous), but I would like to some balance and GWFs requiring more skill to play effectively.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
Yeah Ive been playing lately without anim cancel just cause I know itll get fixed soon enough, dont even need to do it...
I mean what is a CW gonna do to me when I TR him? Choke? Dont make me laugh, maybe when hes done patting me on the back with that encounter, ill be kind enough to put him out of his misery before he hurts himself off of my Sharandar deflect boon and kills himself...
Its to the point that my GWF isnt even fun beacuse its just so easy mode... Been playing my buddies CW lately for a real challenge and let me tell you....
Its a challenge LOL!
I have been playing my combat HR lately trying to gear her up. I even play without the bugged grasping roots. The difference is stark and GWF issues become much clearer on different classes. I generally feel for CWs though, but that might be might perspective form playing a GWF and HR. I ran into a few really good ones though that are pretty crazy. Had one from enemy team literally drop my 38K+ health from near full health to dead dropping a meatball on my head where I couldn't avoid it.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
Pando83 chill out dude, not all the posts were directed at you. Yes youve pointed out the same thing I have with regards to ways to fix the GWF class. So just chill bro...
I have been playing my combat HR lately trying to gear her up. I even play without the bugged grasping roots. The difference is stark and GWF issues become much clearer on different classes. I generally feel for CWs though, but that might be might perspective form playing a GWF and HR. I ran into a few really good ones though that are pretty crazy. Had one from enemy team literally drop my 38K+ health from near full health to dead dropping a meatball on my head where I couldn't avoid it.
Yeah CWs can do nasty damage especially with an ice knife crit.
Part of the issue is that now that CC is reduced on the PTR CWs really dont have a chance... I also dont think ive ever had a CW who was 1v1ing me drop me in seconds on either my GF/GWF.
I have had CWs when combined with say a GF drop me in seconds. But alot of that is from prone->debuffs+GF damage combined with some nice Shard work and Daily damage...
Maybe if a GWf couldnt unstoppable OUT of CC it would be a different story and would make things like smoke bomb viable for TRs again, or choke a GWF and know you have SOME time to pop him before unstoppable. But when you can unstoppable OUT of everything and become immune to everything, its pretty lame.
The thing that still gets me is the Tank with a shield has LESS DR and is LESS tanky than the guy with a 2h sword. The Shield tank deals less damage ontop of that as well as being LESS mobile and having less resistance to CC...
My GF with 5k defense+shield has total DR of about 50%. My GWF with <3k defense + Sent Aegis + 2H sword has around 56% DR.... Explain that to me LOL! Not including tenacity changes.
Pando83 chill out dude, not all the posts were directed at you. Yes youve pointed out the same thing I have with regards to ways to fix the GWF class. So just chill bro...
Yeah CWs can do nasty damage especially with an ice knife crit.
Part of the issue is that now that CC is reduced on the PTR CWs really dont have a chance... I also dont think ive ever had a CW who was 1v1ing me drop me in seconds on either my GF/GWF.
I have had CWs when combined with say a GF drop me in seconds. But alot of that is from prone->debuffs+GF damage combined with some nice Shard work and Daily damage...
Maybe if a GWf couldnt unstoppable OUT of CC it would be a different story and would make things like smoke bomb viable for TRs again, or choke a GWF and know you have SOME time to pop him before unstoppable. But when you can unstoppable OUT of everything and become immune to everything, its pretty lame.
The thing that still gets me is the Tank with a shield has LESS DR and is LESS tanky than the guy with a 2h sword. The Shield tank deals less damage ontop of that as well as being LESS mobile and having less resistance to CC...
My GF with 5k defense+shield has total DR of about 50%. My GWF with <3k defense + Sent Aegis + 2H sword has around 56% DR.... Explain that to me LOL! Not including tenacity changes.
Well to be fair, 50% for a GF becomes 57.5% with armor spec. Puts Sentinels and GFs pretty close. Still, you are right though. GF can see his DR reduced to as much as 17.5% or worse by aromor penetration. A GWF that pops unstoppable sees that 15% reduced DR upped to 65% with the flat 50% DR bonus of a full unstoppable.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
If i really have to complain about something, it's this attitude of people like you, who just have to troll out, not even trying to read what i wrote in previous posts, suggesting what to change in GWFs to reduce their "OPness" in some areas. Yet' you ASSUME i'm saying GWFs are fine and must not be touched. Learn to read, may be.
Sorry sir, I'll learn to read, but for some reason I get lazy and bored reading wordy posts, especially your walls of bulls***.
Also, unstoppable applies to destroyers, and swordmasters. So, you can't think about generically "change" or "nerf" it, cause TR makes GWF close the gaps easily.
You guys bring in everything, making no distinction, and i try to make you understand that you can make changes to specific builds, specific paths, but not to a Whole class, just cause you have problems with one specific path or build.
LOL, it's even worser in PvE than in PvP to be honest with you.
Just take a look at that dude guy who posted that solo CN first boss for instance, I was definitely "entertained", but not at all awed.
Putting aside the ZEN HP consumable (whatever it is) and the Emblem of Seldarine's active, please note how often Unstoppable was cast. The OP even states "Happy Dancing in the reds & farm GWF fellas ", which is hilarious.
So enjoy being Mr. Know-it-All sir, at least you think you are.
In the thread: a bunch of TRs or players with TR mains pretending to be GWFs and demanding nerfs. @TRs no, you cannot be op again, even if GWFs get "nerfs", from the day IV was born will always be to a rogue what the TR has always been to a CW, an anticlass, they will ALWAYS kill you. And you know why? Because no other class can. In fact, I don't even care if every other class can take GWFs and they become absolutely useless as long as they stay the TR anti-class, the rogue full domination of pvp(where they have a higher than 50/50% chance of beating every single other class in game) that lasted until the end of module 2 is over and wont return no matter how hard other classes are changed.
Post tenacity/healing exhaustion
Buff CW defences and damage
Restore DC heals
Buff GF damage
Buff HR damage
PvP is fixed. No problem. What I find extremely annoying is that people had hated the keyboard bash style of TRs and them lolstomping the pvp domination since the beta. Look at the population in pvp, until HR release it was ~40% TR in every single match and even now it's a good 30-40%. The only class that was able to take every single other class down for a good 7 months. Then IV rolled out and look at the outcry TRs went into? It will get balanced for Mod3(which was already confirmed by the devs) but its still not enough the "nerf GWF" is in every single topic. Some foolishness that was proposed (6sec cd on at-wills? last feat in sentinel defence buff removed? Unstoppable draining HP? Mark Removed from IVs? asking for tenacity to not affect GWFs because they are already like tanks and TRs aren't tanks how dare they allow that?) isn't balancing at all, it's just a bunch of people who want to lolstomp again because they are used to it.
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oonsongxianMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 3Arc User
edited February 2014
well all classes are affected but in your statement it sounds like sentinel gwfs will be affected the most. i have no problem with that since sentinels are really broken in pvp now. most of the times even its so hard to kill them when 5v1. GFs are suppose to be the main tank in the game but doesnt seem that way currently, seems like sentinels are like so much for effective and efficient in tanking that GFs, even a highly geared GF cant fight on 1v5 because they only rely on regen stat, on the other hand sentinel gwfs has high regen stat, healing feats, and also defense boosting feats. along with unstoppable and the current artifacts, i dont think they will ever die.
Sorry sir, I'll learn to read, but for some reason I get lazy and bored reading wordy posts, especially your walls of bulls***.
LOL, it's even worser in PvE than in PvP to be honest with you.
Just take a look at that dude guy who posted that solo CN first boss for instance, I was definitely "entertained", but not at all awed.
Putting aside the ZEN HP consumable (whatever it is) and the Emblem of Seldarine's active, please note how often Unstoppable was cast. The OP even states "Happy Dancing in the reds & farm GWF fellas ", which is hilarious.
So enjoy being Mr. Know-it-All sir, at least you think you are.
The guy in the video is able to "spam" unstoppable cuase there are adds hitting him and feeding his determination. Absorbing damage and channelling it to use it as a weapon is the way of fighting of the GWFs, it's exactly what they are supposed to do.
GWF are SUPPOSED to stay in the red areas, absorb the damage and use it to go unstoppable. It's the only class with no way to avoid damage (CWs have teleport immunity, TRs/ HRs dodge roll immunity, DCs have shift immunity, GFs have shield block). You have ever wonder why? Cause they are supposed to absorb damage to turn it into a weapon.
Have you ever been in a T2 dungeon, or in Valindra's Tower, for example? Mobs hit quite hard. GWFs are melee AoE fighters. Which means they have to stand exactly inside that sea of hard-hitting mobs, fighting melee. That's why, in PvE, they are designed to be most of the time in unstoppable.
Also: if you've seen the video, you've also noticed that the GWF is not standing still absorbing ALL the damage. He still got to avoid high DPS spikes, and that's why he keeps moving during the Whole fight. You noticed it? No? Your bad.
Also: you quoted me when i said unstoppable applies to swordmasters too. Yet you are talking about the GWF in the video, who is a Iron Vanguard (see, he used frontline. You noticed? No? Your bad).
Let me guess, why he keeps moving and using frontline on adds? Oh, yeah.
Cause high spike damage makes unstoppable not spammable, while at-will spam and adds-like damage make it spammable.
If you are too lazy to read, then at least do not talk about stuff you don't know.
You're just a troll, and i'm done answering your trolling posts...
let's get this thing straight. An extremely skilled GWF IV sent with R10s, perfects and 2 DCs on live can maaaaaybe in a perfect case scenario fight 5 extremely undergeared pugs. The class is able to fight 1v2 against equal gear opponents but only on the condition if one of them gets bursted down within the first 30 sec of the battle, if not the GWF no matter how geared or skilled will be dead pretty soon. 1v1 ON LIVE, hands down not much you can do against a gwf apart from sending your team's gwf against him/her. If IV sents are beating 5 of you alone, even 3 of you, then maybe you should examine your gear/your team mates' gear and if that's high perhaps you should l2p?(as somebody who played CW as a main and his first ever character since early summer, saying this to TRs is sweeter than the nectar of gods).
well all classes are affected but in your statement it sounds like sentinel gwfs will be affected the most. i have no problem with that since sentinels are really broken in pvp now. most of the times even its so hard to kill them when 5v1. GFs are suppose to be the main tank in the game but doesnt seem that way currently, seems like sentinels are like so much for effective and efficient in tanking that GFs, even a highly geared GF cant fight on 1v5 because they only rely on regen stat, on the other hand sentinel gwfs has high regen stat, healing feats, and also defense boosting feats. along with unstoppable and the current artifacts, i dont think they will ever die.
Want to make GF count again in a big way? Un-nerf Stalwart Bulwark and give GF's the Destroyer paragon. The class would bounce right back and be right up there, close to GWFs. CWs could use a similar boost (for pvp). But instead of making the playing field more even by making everyone else a bit stronger, they will level it out by smashing down the bits (classes) that players have made really stick out.
ALL CLASSES are affected. ALL CLASSES stack regen&HP these days in PvP, not just GWFs, some more than other true, but my CW has 30K HP and 1450 Regen for example, and there are other CWs with 35K+ HP and 2000 Regen, which brings them almost to usual GWF levels.
ALL CLASSES have same access to Tenacity.
No worries, GWF is just as uberpowerful in the current Tenacity incarnation as it is on Live. You don't believe me? My friend ayroux made a good topic that showcased GWF abilities with Tenacity gear on the new system.
You guys are so worried about your GWFs, as if your class if the one and only affected by the changes.
PS: just as a short sidenote, did I mention spike damage that these days might worry you in Live is gone? So even less worries for GWFs.
If anything, GWFs are the most favored class yet again under the new system, since defense/deflect/Tenacity all stack, and GWFs usually bring more of these in games.
The nerf to several FEATED healing abilities in the GWF builds, were targetted directly by this nerf.
Ferocious reaction, unstoppable recovery, Sent Aegis. You might stack hp and regen, but all of these being nerfed together is absolutely huge. And none of these are needed in pve. This is generally used in pvp builds.
That being said, i have no worries about my gwf in pvp. The nerfs however will make my wizzie more amusing in pvp
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
The nerf to several FEATED healing abilities in the GWF builds, were targetted directly by this nerf.
Ferocious reaction, unstoppable recovery, Sent Aegis. You might stack hp and regen, but all of these being nerfed together is absolutely huge. And none of these are needed in pve. This is generally used in pvp builds.
That being said, i have no worries about my gwf in pvp. The nerfs however will make my wizzie more amusing in pvp
Yeah, your last sentences are what actually counts. The GWF is by far still very good. Yes, I tested this on preview, I even played a pretty geared friend's GWF myself as a total noobie, and I owned people that were in better gear&spec like there was no tomorrow, without even much of a challenge.
As for CWs... I'm very disappointed about how they work in Preview. I couldn't find a build that would suit my style or that is at least as efficient as what I can do on live, which is not a lot.
I am even considering to give up on the CW and just level a HR or maybe even GWF and send all enchants over. At least 3 of my friends have forsaken their CWs to only PvE and now do PvP on GWF/HR
Yeah, your last sentences are what actually counts. The GWF is by far still very good. Yes, I tested this on preview, I even played a pretty geared friend's GWF myself as a total noobie, and I owned people that were in better gear&spec like there was no tomorrow, without even much of a challenge.
As for CWs... I'm very disappointed about how they work in Preview. I couldn't find a build that would suit my style or that is at least as efficient as what I can do on live, which is not a lot.
I am even considering to give up on the CW and just level a HR or maybe even GWF and send all enchants over. At least 3 of my friends have forsaken their CWs to only PvE and now do PvP on GWF/HR
someone who has no exp playing a gwf isnt gonna own people who know how to handle one.
That being said, we have alot of random bads in pvp now a days because theres no actual matching system, when i solo queue and i have a higher GS than the rest of my team combined almost, its kinda annoying.
However, you and i have run into each other, youre not a bad wiz.
ALLLSO....
The spike dmg nerf might really hurt classes like wizards. Considering they have to rely on this to win alot of the time.
Sorry, but this post is only meant for mature players, if you have any constructive criticism please post it or don't post it and keep your childish comments to yourself. Thank you and have a good day :cool:.
Again, thank you ALL for the feedback/comments (constructive) let's keep em coming!
Sorry, but this post is only meant for mature players, if you have any constructive criticism please post it or don't post it and keep your childish comments to yourself. Thank you and have a good day :cool:.
The moment some GWF players showed up and started insisting that the intended changes to the class was "excessive", and started downplaying the GWF's impact in mod2 PvP, is pretty much the point where all logic and realism evaporated from this discussion in the first place.
Who are we trying to fool here, again?
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
The moment some GWF players showed up and started insisting that the intended changes to the class was "excessive", and started downplaying the GWF's impact in mod2 PvP, is pretty much the point where all logic and realism evaporated from this discussion in the first place.
Well, If it was me, I wasn't trying to downplay the GWF. All I was trying to do was post my concerns and possibly that of others (mainly GWF's). In fact the discussion is to inform others (GWF's) about the changes as I so stated in my first post, "The purpose of this post is not just so that I can learn more about what this new PvP system has in store for the future of GWFs, but for other GWF’s and players that don’t know about this new PvP system."
I won't try to hide the fact the GWF is amazing in PvP (their not the only amazing class though), but to me it's only those who are geared and know how to play it, that is just my opinion of course. Also I would expect "some" GWF players to show up and call the changes "excessive" considering that it's suppose to be a PvP "patch" along with a GWF "nerf" (that they didn't mention), which was going to come I suppose. All they were doing was the same as I, expressing their concerns. Then others would inform them about why this is happening or try to, such as pers3phone.
The solution of sucking it up isn't a real solution nor does it help. At least from this thread/post GWF's will see as to why they may be receiving this nerf thanks to players like pers3phone, who's an active poster and plays a CW so we see his perspective, which I can sort of agree on here and there (no disrespect). Other players have given feedback on tenacity and as well as making a case for the "good" GWF.
Due to my experiences I would hold off on the nerf or whatever you want to call it, until the matchmaking system is up and running LIVE. From there the Mods can then see what needs to be adjusted, they should know that even if they go through with this patch as it stands there will still need adjusting overall to "equalize" PvP for ALL players. Anyways, the reason being is that the "OP" players can fight one another equally (whether it be the top 10% or top 1%). The under geared and perhaps non-skilled can fight others of their same gear/skill based from there the mods can see what needs further adjustment. Once again this is just my opinion.
A majority of the frustrated players that have trouble with GWF's are those who are under geared or just don't know how to fight me (my experiences). Yes, I do play a lot of PvP, since that is all I play now when I log on. I understand that their are extremely OP GWF's just as there are extremely beast HR's that can destroy people (just an example). Thanks for the post :cool:.
The more I play pvp (both premade and pug) and the more I think about it, I am finding all of the drama concerning the op gwf a bit silly. Pvp is a TEAM game which means both teams are likely to have at least one gwf, and regardless of how many gwf's are on a team that ONE really skilled and well geared gwf is simply going to totally tip the scales in favor of their team regardless of how many gwfs are on the other team.
The guild premades I am in regularly feature 3 or more gwfs and that does not mean success is at all assured. Yes we stomp pugs into bloody pulp but we are occasionally also folded and spindled by some of the better squads of the elite pvp guilds. Our gs averages over 14k, some of them are over 16k.
A cw and gf can shred a pair of equally geared and skilled gwfs- between the gf ragdolling and the cw lock down control in addition to things like anvil of doom, shard, so on. You can be locked down and bursted dead before unstoppable even can become available. Soulforge pops, you get relocked and bursted down again despite rapidly tapping the blood crystal raven skull key like 10 times a second as soulforge processes.
The big bad wolf gwf is a boogey man of hapless pugs with little experience and low gearscore. Premade vs premade, and I mean serious guild premades, and all of that balances out; the gwf is is not nearly as uber as it is made out to be. There are some beastly nightmares of gwf pvp toons running around here and there but what makes them scary is not that you can't stand toe to to with them on your own gwf but that as you are doing so the cw is going to lock you up and the gf is going to bounce you off the walls. \
Because it is about teamwork. Matchmaking will make pvp more fun. But skilled teams will still destroy less skilled teams and that is something that simply cannot be nerfed.
PanzerJäger HR Hybrid Jugger Conq GF
....
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2014
@overddrive, if your 2xGWF team cannot beat CW+GF... meh. 2 GWFs should kill the CW in like 10 secs at most (if he 's a pro), and destroy the GF afterwards easily.
As things stand now, properly played&built PvP GWFs need stuff like (assuming same gear&skill):
- GF to take them off the node, probably never gonna kill the GWF, just stall them and slowly cap point
- DC to stall them/push off node, never gonna kill GWF just annoy them to death
- GWF to slug it out in a pissing contest of who get more crits and lucky sprints
99% of TRs and CWs don't stand a chance. The guys that do stand a chance are top players in their class, and their chances are still close to 0 against top GWFs.
So basically GWF requires teamwork from at least 2 party members to be killed. Many times, for pro GWFs even 2 guys will have a hard time, cause GWF can wreak a CW before GF+CW can kill the GWF most times.
I personally find this situation a lot of royal BS. GWF should be no special class when they have to be dealt with. If I meet a same gear&experience GWF on my point, I should have 50% chances to solo him on my CW. Yet these days, I need to call for help, rotate somewhere else or stall the GWF for as long as possible, without any realistic chance of a kill, cause:
- GWF deals huge amount of damage on squishies
- GWF sticks to you like glue, no shaking it off
- GWF deflects half your attacks
- GWF has 40%+ DR
- GWF goes immune after each of your encounter crits
And please, don't come with the rock/paper/scissors thing. Slight advantage from class, maybe OK. HUge advantage because of class? No.
And I played geared GWF myself, I know how it feels. The difference from CW vs GWF is HUGE. When I played GWF I was relaxed and just felt like I was enjoying myself in a relaxing game. When you play CW is tension 100%, always on the lookout, always trying to anticipate, always knowing a landed IBS will cost you 12-17K HP and put you on panic mode, especially as they usually come after a takedown/FLS that deals some fearsome damage as well.
If you wanna know how other class feels, do like me, ask a friend to play his char for a day or so. Sure, you will be inexperienced and suck at it, and even this didn't stop me from having a smooth GWF experience, owning squishies like there was no tomorrow.
GWFs do not need nerf. Other classes need to be brought up to par so they have the instruments to deal with GWFs properly.
@overddrive, if your 2xGWF team cannot beat CW+GF... meh. 2 GWFs should kill the CW in like 10 secs at most (if he 's a pro), and destroy the GF afterwards easily.
As things stand now, properly played&built PvP GWFs need stuff like (assuming same gear&skill):
- GF to take them off the node, probably never gonna kill the GWF, just stall them and slowly cap point
- DC to stall them/push off node, never gonna kill GWF just annoy them to death
- GWF to slug it out in a pissing contest of who get more crits and lucky sprints
99% of TRs and CWs don't stand a chance. The guys that do stand a chance are top players in their class, and their chances are still close to 0 against top GWFs.
So basically GWF requires teamwork from at least 2 party members to be killed. Many times, for pro GWFs even 2 guys will have a hard time, cause GWF can wreak a CW before GF+CW can kill the GWF most times.
I personally find this situation a lot of royal BS. GWF should be no special class when they have to be dealt with. If I meet a same gear&experience GWF on my point, I should have 50% chances to solo him on my CW. Yet these days, I need to call for help, rotate somewhere else or stall the GWF for as long as possible, without any realistic chance of a kill, cause:
- GWF deals huge amount of damage on squishies
- GWF sticks to you like glue, no shaking it off
- GWF deflects half your attacks
- GWF has 40%+ DR
- GWF goes immune after each of your encounter crits
And please, don't come with the rock/paper/scissors thing. Slight advantage from class, maybe OK. HUge advantage because of class? No.
And I played geared GWF myself, I know how it feels. The difference from CW vs GWF is HUGE. When I played GWF I was relaxed and just felt like I was enjoying myself in a relaxing game. When you play CW is tension 100%, always on the lookout, always trying to anticipate, always knowing a landed IBS will cost you 12-17K HP and put you on panic mode, especially as they usually come after a takedown/FLS that deals some fearsome damage as well.
If you wanna know how other class feels, do like me, ask a friend to play his char for a day or so. Sure, you will be inexperienced and suck at it, and even this didn't stop me from having a smooth GWF experience, owning squishies like there was no tomorrow.
GWFs do not need nerf. Other classes need to be brought up to par so they have the instruments to deal with GWFs properly.
Some things I will add, that GF will die, quickly!
That DC will die, not quickly but they still will die!
Most GWFs have ~60% DR outside unstoppable, with Unstoppable it can be as much as 110%
They do have a huge advantage. NO CLASS CAN KILL A GWF 1v1, and the GWF can miss like 10 combos but as soon as he catches one, the other class is dead or close to it.
They DO NEED A NERF! You think they can bring 5 other classes up to par? Hell, they can't even get one right... Take that damage away from them... or take their survivability away, just nerf them for the love of GOD. In most cases a GWF can win in a 2v1 situation, how the hell was that ever considered balanced? Let's say you've got a top CW and TR on that GWF, he will kill the CW and then kill the TR, winning a 2v1 without breaking a sweat. Other classes give him more trouble like HR but mainly because of bugged vines, but even say GF + CW, that CW will die then the GF will die... It's not balanced at all, they have been OP for months now and even with the coming patch, they need to be nerfed a lot further!
The common tactic now is to throw a DC on the other teams GWF, this is equivalent to a pawn holding a queen at bay in chess. You take your weakest piece and take their strongest out of the match... Whoever does this better wins the game!
Well dont forget HRs can go toe to toe with GWFs... So there IS one class that can arguably take down a GWF solo.
BUT yes I think GF/TR/DC/CW need to brought more inline with GWFs...
That's a joke, because of a bug they can kite a GWF, but they will not kill a good one, they will simply annoy him until they eventually die.
But don't get me wrong, HR's have fox shift and aimed shot, which are both LOL damage. Seriously an at will that hits harder than most dailies and I would definitely say harder than any encounter in the game, jokes! The devs have no sense of the word balance.
0
pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2014
trippysmurf you're a bit angry man, cool off a bit
Why would you want to nerf a class that feels good when you play it and makes the game fun? It doesn't make any sense and frustrates so many people.
The best DCs won't go down to GWFs, it just won't happen. I've seen stalemates for 5-10 minutes long and both players were at full HP Also DCs frustrates the GWFs and takes them out of the game, so yeah. Frustrating the adversary is a good way to win.
As for HRs... Dunno what to say, since roots going through unstoppable is an acknowledged bug and sooner or later, gonna be fixed, and then GWFs will eat the HR just as they eat CWs.
So trippy... think of other players too. The GWF class went through hell for half of this game life. Now they can finally enjoy themselves. This is good, yes? Game-->fun-->enjoyment, it's all good when things go like this.
So all that remains is giving other classes mechanics that allow them to counter savage melee damage and survived through it (if used properly), and mechanics that can do proper damage to highly armored classes (if used properly). And all will be fine, and we will move the balance from "this class beats the others" to "more skill beats less skill".
You don't even have to nerf or buff anybody. Just fix all the bugs on all the classes and then you would finally have something to start from.
These discussions through a myriad of unsolved issues feels kind of obsolete. The majority of single target spells of a CW seems to be unaffected by ArPen so of course they have a huge disadvantage against high DR targets. Combine it with the fact that the DR of a GWF is bugged in a favorable way and some of their Debuffs/DoTs as well and there is no way you can evaluate the matchup right now.
Comments
Yeah Ive been playing lately without anim cancel just cause I know itll get fixed soon enough, dont even need to do it...
I mean what is a CW gonna do to me when I TR him? Choke? Dont make me laugh, maybe when hes done patting me on the back with that encounter, ill be kind enough to put him out of his misery before he hurts himself off of my Sharandar deflect boon and kills himself...
Its to the point that my GWF isnt even fun beacuse its just so easy mode... Been playing my buddies CW lately for a real challenge and let me tell you....
Its a challenge LOL!
When you tepel him-cc-DPS him, then he goes unstoppable, you can still at-will him. Avoid his prones and attack with your at-wills. DoT damage is also a good thing. You don't have to use your encounters when he's in unstoppable, and you don't have to spam at-wills when he's out of unstoppable. The reasons, i explained above. At-will during unstoppable do not build him any determination, and help you reducing his regeneration. Obviously, this applies to ranged classes or TRs attacking from the distance while stealthed, or in ITC). Np, i just try to give some insight to players from other classes.
First: i have already posted many changes to GWF to reduce some OP aspects, expecially of tank builds. You missed them? Your bad. They are written above.
Second: my name in-game is written in my signature. You can easily look for me in-game and challenge me directly. I PvP regulary, and against people with any gear, any class, any guild. You have a GWF? I'm Always in for some training. Either i lose or win, there's something to learn.
Third: you assume too much. And troll too much. I'm not "scared" about anything. As i already did with previous changes, i'm already looking forward to the changes, and already thinking about how to adapt. I'm just discussing here and trying to give some insight to people that find it difficult to deal with some aspects of the GWFs.
If i really have to complain about something, it's this attitude of people like you, who just have to troll out, not even trying to read what i wrote in previous posts, suggesting what to change in GWFs to reduce their "OPness" in some areas. Yet' you ASSUME i'm saying GWFs are fine and must not be touched. Learn to read, may be.
Again, you should know how i already suggested changes to GWFs. You basically said that yes, it's important to time your damage (what i said) but there are other things that are too powerful on GWFs (things i already suggested changes for). I already said how TR must not be spammable, how ArP should go from CON to STR, how determination should be based on % of damage taken to make it less effective on high HP tank builds.
I also made a thread time ago explaining people in detail what are the weak spots of GWFs and how to fight be more effective against them.
Yet now i'm "trying to not have my class nerfed".
Too bad i already made posts (one is in this thread, and the first is like months old, i made it shortly after module 2 release) talking about how threat rush must not be spammable. Along with the other changes mentioned above.
Which is a Whole different matter from the very specific explanation i gave about unstoppable not being spammable if you use the right tactics. Are those tactics difficult to apply due to other things that must be changed? I already discussed those things. But if you say that there's a problem in unstoppable itself, well, it is not. To me, the problems/ things to change are Others, and already explained which ones, countless times.
Also, unstoppable applies to destroyers, and swordmasters. So, you can't think about generically "change" or "nerf" it, cause TR makes GWF close the gaps easily.
You guys bring in everything, making no distinction, and i try to make you understand that you can make changes to specific builds, specific paths, but not to a Whole class, just cause you have problems with one specific path or build.
Yet, it's like people don't read at all. Guess it's just impossible to discuss the matter, and i really have no time to waste, trying to bring reason to the raging reactions of you guys.
I detailed my issues with threatening rush here. http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?599071-GWF-Threatening-Rush-Feedback It boils down to this that I posted later in the thread:
"Did I mention that? Mark crits from threatening rush also apply SotS to all targets that get marked. AoE Debuffing.
What this all comes down to is that Threatening Rush is your easy button. Just hold it down or if you could abuse it by sprint cancelling. It does everything, hits hard, closes the gap, AoE Marks and Debuffs, Buffs your weapon master faster, add large amount of bonus damage. The prone chain is a killer in PvP, but I think people might be surprised to see just how much damage a GWF is putting out with Threatening Rush not to mention TR is the reason the prone chain does so much damage."
I do think GWFs should be capable of potentially high burst damage, but there should be a counter to it. It should be high enough that standing right in front a GWF face tanking them should be a bad idea. The problem is TR makes it too easy to make sure anyone to want right next to you is right next to you. It is nearly uncounterable damage and makes setting up your prone chain almost too easy. I don't want to see GWFs nerfed back to the days of negligible damage (unless you had Tenebrous), but I would like to some balance and GWFs requiring more skill to play effectively.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
I have been playing my combat HR lately trying to gear her up. I even play without the bugged grasping roots. The difference is stark and GWF issues become much clearer on different classes. I generally feel for CWs though, but that might be might perspective form playing a GWF and HR. I ran into a few really good ones though that are pretty crazy. Had one from enemy team literally drop my 38K+ health from near full health to dead dropping a meatball on my head where I couldn't avoid it.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
Yeah CWs can do nasty damage especially with an ice knife crit.
Part of the issue is that now that CC is reduced on the PTR CWs really dont have a chance... I also dont think ive ever had a CW who was 1v1ing me drop me in seconds on either my GF/GWF.
I have had CWs when combined with say a GF drop me in seconds. But alot of that is from prone->debuffs+GF damage combined with some nice Shard work and Daily damage...
Maybe if a GWf couldnt unstoppable OUT of CC it would be a different story and would make things like smoke bomb viable for TRs again, or choke a GWF and know you have SOME time to pop him before unstoppable. But when you can unstoppable OUT of everything and become immune to everything, its pretty lame.
The thing that still gets me is the Tank with a shield has LESS DR and is LESS tanky than the guy with a 2h sword. The Shield tank deals less damage ontop of that as well as being LESS mobile and having less resistance to CC...
My GF with 5k defense+shield has total DR of about 50%. My GWF with <3k defense + Sent Aegis + 2H sword has around 56% DR.... Explain that to me LOL! Not including tenacity changes.
Well to be fair, 50% for a GF becomes 57.5% with armor spec. Puts Sentinels and GFs pretty close. Still, you are right though. GF can see his DR reduced to as much as 17.5% or worse by aromor penetration. A GWF that pops unstoppable sees that 15% reduced DR upped to 65% with the flat 50% DR bonus of a full unstoppable.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
Sorry sir, I'll learn to read, but for some reason I get lazy and bored reading wordy posts, especially your walls of bulls***.
LOL, it's even worser in PvE than in PvP to be honest with you.
Just take a look at that dude guy who posted that solo CN first boss for instance, I was definitely "entertained", but not at all awed.
Putting aside the ZEN HP consumable (whatever it is) and the Emblem of Seldarine's active, please note how often Unstoppable was cast. The OP even states "Happy Dancing in the reds & farm GWF fellas
So enjoy being Mr. Know-it-All sir, at least you think you are.
@TRs no, you cannot be op again, even if GWFs get "nerfs", from the day IV was born will always be to a rogue what the TR has always been to a CW, an anticlass, they will ALWAYS kill you. And you know why? Because no other class can. In fact, I don't even care if every other class can take GWFs and they become absolutely useless as long as they stay the TR anti-class, the rogue full domination of pvp(where they have a higher than 50/50% chance of beating every single other class in game) that lasted until the end of module 2 is over and wont return no matter how hard other classes are changed.
Post tenacity/healing exhaustion
Buff CW defences and damage
Restore DC heals
Buff GF damage
Buff HR damage
PvP is fixed. No problem. What I find extremely annoying is that people had hated the keyboard bash style of TRs and them lolstomping the pvp domination since the beta. Look at the population in pvp, until HR release it was ~40% TR in every single match and even now it's a good 30-40%. The only class that was able to take every single other class down for a good 7 months. Then IV rolled out and look at the outcry TRs went into? It will get balanced for Mod3(which was already confirmed by the devs) but its still not enough the "nerf GWF" is in every single topic. Some foolishness that was proposed (6sec cd on at-wills? last feat in sentinel defence buff removed? Unstoppable draining HP? Mark Removed from IVs? asking for tenacity to not affect GWFs because they are already like tanks and TRs aren't tanks how dare they allow that?) isn't balancing at all, it's just a bunch of people who want to lolstomp again because they are used to it.
The guy in the video is able to "spam" unstoppable cuase there are adds hitting him and feeding his determination. Absorbing damage and channelling it to use it as a weapon is the way of fighting of the GWFs, it's exactly what they are supposed to do.
GWF are SUPPOSED to stay in the red areas, absorb the damage and use it to go unstoppable. It's the only class with no way to avoid damage (CWs have teleport immunity, TRs/ HRs dodge roll immunity, DCs have shift immunity, GFs have shield block). You have ever wonder why? Cause they are supposed to absorb damage to turn it into a weapon.
Have you ever been in a T2 dungeon, or in Valindra's Tower, for example? Mobs hit quite hard. GWFs are melee AoE fighters. Which means they have to stand exactly inside that sea of hard-hitting mobs, fighting melee. That's why, in PvE, they are designed to be most of the time in unstoppable.
Also: if you've seen the video, you've also noticed that the GWF is not standing still absorbing ALL the damage. He still got to avoid high DPS spikes, and that's why he keeps moving during the Whole fight. You noticed it? No? Your bad.
Also: you quoted me when i said unstoppable applies to swordmasters too. Yet you are talking about the GWF in the video, who is a Iron Vanguard (see, he used frontline. You noticed? No? Your bad).
Let me guess, why he keeps moving and using frontline on adds? Oh, yeah.
Cause high spike damage makes unstoppable not spammable, while at-will spam and adds-like damage make it spammable.
If you are too lazy to read, then at least do not talk about stuff you don't know.
You're just a troll, and i'm done answering your trolling posts...
Want to make GF count again in a big way? Un-nerf Stalwart Bulwark and give GF's the Destroyer paragon. The class would bounce right back and be right up there, close to GWFs. CWs could use a similar boost (for pvp). But instead of making the playing field more even by making everyone else a bit stronger, they will level it out by smashing down the bits (classes) that players have made really stick out.
Jugger Conq GF
....
The nerf to several FEATED healing abilities in the GWF builds, were targetted directly by this nerf.
Ferocious reaction, unstoppable recovery, Sent Aegis. You might stack hp and regen, but all of these being nerfed together is absolutely huge. And none of these are needed in pve. This is generally used in pvp builds.
That being said, i have no worries about my gwf in pvp. The nerfs however will make my wizzie more amusing in pvp
Yeah, your last sentences are what actually counts. The GWF is by far still very good. Yes, I tested this on preview, I even played a pretty geared friend's GWF myself as a total noobie, and I owned people that were in better gear&spec like there was no tomorrow, without even much of a challenge.
As for CWs... I'm very disappointed about how they work in Preview. I couldn't find a build that would suit my style or that is at least as efficient as what I can do on live, which is not a lot.
I am even considering to give up on the CW and just level a HR or maybe even GWF and send all enchants over. At least 3 of my friends have forsaken their CWs to only PvE and now do PvP on GWF/HR
What i read here, is that you have no skill.
someone who has no exp playing a gwf isnt gonna own people who know how to handle one.
That being said, we have alot of random bads in pvp now a days because theres no actual matching system, when i solo queue and i have a higher GS than the rest of my team combined almost, its kinda annoying.
However, you and i have run into each other, youre not a bad wiz.
ALLLSO....
The spike dmg nerf might really hurt classes like wizards. Considering they have to rely on this to win alot of the time.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Sorry, but this post is only meant for mature players, if you have any constructive criticism please post it or don't post it and keep your childish comments to yourself. Thank you and have a good day :cool:.
Again, thank you ALL for the feedback/comments (constructive) let's keep em coming!
The moment some GWF players showed up and started insisting that the intended changes to the class was "excessive", and started downplaying the GWF's impact in mod2 PvP, is pretty much the point where all logic and realism evaporated from this discussion in the first place.
Who are we trying to fool here, again?
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Well, If it was me, I wasn't trying to downplay the GWF. All I was trying to do was post my concerns and possibly that of others (mainly GWF's). In fact the discussion is to inform others (GWF's) about the changes as I so stated in my first post, "The purpose of this post is not just so that I can learn more about what this new PvP system has in store for the future of GWFs, but for other GWF’s and players that don’t know about this new PvP system."
I won't try to hide the fact the GWF is amazing in PvP (their not the only amazing class though), but to me it's only those who are geared and know how to play it, that is just my opinion of course. Also I would expect "some" GWF players to show up and call the changes "excessive" considering that it's suppose to be a PvP "patch" along with a GWF "nerf" (that they didn't mention), which was going to come I suppose. All they were doing was the same as I, expressing their concerns. Then others would inform them about why this is happening or try to, such as pers3phone.
The solution of sucking it up isn't a real solution nor does it help. At least from this thread/post GWF's will see as to why they may be receiving this nerf thanks to players like pers3phone, who's an active poster and plays a CW so we see his perspective, which I can sort of agree on here and there (no disrespect). Other players have given feedback on tenacity and as well as making a case for the "good" GWF.
Due to my experiences I would hold off on the nerf or whatever you want to call it, until the matchmaking system is up and running LIVE. From there the Mods can then see what needs to be adjusted, they should know that even if they go through with this patch as it stands there will still need adjusting overall to "equalize" PvP for ALL players. Anyways, the reason being is that the "OP" players can fight one another equally (whether it be the top 10% or top 1%). The under geared and perhaps non-skilled can fight others of their same gear/skill based from there the mods can see what needs further adjustment. Once again this is just my opinion.
A majority of the frustrated players that have trouble with GWF's are those who are under geared or just don't know how to fight me (my experiences). Yes, I do play a lot of PvP, since that is all I play now when I log on. I understand that their are extremely OP GWF's just as there are extremely beast HR's that can destroy people (just an example). Thanks for the post :cool:.
The guild premades I am in regularly feature 3 or more gwfs and that does not mean success is at all assured. Yes we stomp pugs into bloody pulp but we are occasionally also folded and spindled by some of the better squads of the elite pvp guilds. Our gs averages over 14k, some of them are over 16k.
A cw and gf can shred a pair of equally geared and skilled gwfs- between the gf ragdolling and the cw lock down control in addition to things like anvil of doom, shard, so on. You can be locked down and bursted dead before unstoppable even can become available. Soulforge pops, you get relocked and bursted down again despite rapidly tapping the blood crystal raven skull key like 10 times a second as soulforge processes.
The big bad wolf gwf is a boogey man of hapless pugs with little experience and low gearscore. Premade vs premade, and I mean serious guild premades, and all of that balances out; the gwf is is not nearly as uber as it is made out to be. There are some beastly nightmares of gwf pvp toons running around here and there but what makes them scary is not that you can't stand toe to to with them on your own gwf but that as you are doing so the cw is going to lock you up and the gf is going to bounce you off the walls. \
Because it is about teamwork. Matchmaking will make pvp more fun. But skilled teams will still destroy less skilled teams and that is something that simply cannot be nerfed.
Jugger Conq GF
....
As things stand now, properly played&built PvP GWFs need stuff like (assuming same gear&skill):
- GF to take them off the node, probably never gonna kill the GWF, just stall them and slowly cap point
- DC to stall them/push off node, never gonna kill GWF just annoy them to death
- GWF to slug it out in a pissing contest of who get more crits and lucky sprints
99% of TRs and CWs don't stand a chance. The guys that do stand a chance are top players in their class, and their chances are still close to 0 against top GWFs.
So basically GWF requires teamwork from at least 2 party members to be killed. Many times, for pro GWFs even 2 guys will have a hard time, cause GWF can wreak a CW before GF+CW can kill the GWF most times.
I personally find this situation a lot of royal BS. GWF should be no special class when they have to be dealt with. If I meet a same gear&experience GWF on my point, I should have 50% chances to solo him on my CW. Yet these days, I need to call for help, rotate somewhere else or stall the GWF for as long as possible, without any realistic chance of a kill, cause:
- GWF deals huge amount of damage on squishies
- GWF sticks to you like glue, no shaking it off
- GWF deflects half your attacks
- GWF has 40%+ DR
- GWF goes immune after each of your encounter crits
And please, don't come with the rock/paper/scissors thing. Slight advantage from class, maybe OK. HUge advantage because of class? No.
And I played geared GWF myself, I know how it feels. The difference from CW vs GWF is HUGE. When I played GWF I was relaxed and just felt like I was enjoying myself in a relaxing game. When you play CW is tension 100%, always on the lookout, always trying to anticipate, always knowing a landed IBS will cost you 12-17K HP and put you on panic mode, especially as they usually come after a takedown/FLS that deals some fearsome damage as well.
If you wanna know how other class feels, do like me, ask a friend to play his char for a day or so. Sure, you will be inexperienced and suck at it, and even this didn't stop me from having a smooth GWF experience, owning squishies like there was no tomorrow.
GWFs do not need nerf. Other classes need to be brought up to par so they have the instruments to deal with GWFs properly.
Buffing up other classes will be a better solution compared to nerfing GWFs since it affects the class as a whole.
Some things I will add, that GF will die, quickly!
That DC will die, not quickly but they still will die!
Most GWFs have ~60% DR outside unstoppable, with Unstoppable it can be as much as 110%
They do have a huge advantage. NO CLASS CAN KILL A GWF 1v1, and the GWF can miss like 10 combos but as soon as he catches one, the other class is dead or close to it.
They DO NEED A NERF! You think they can bring 5 other classes up to par? Hell, they can't even get one right... Take that damage away from them... or take their survivability away, just nerf them for the love of GOD. In most cases a GWF can win in a 2v1 situation, how the hell was that ever considered balanced? Let's say you've got a top CW and TR on that GWF, he will kill the CW and then kill the TR, winning a 2v1 without breaking a sweat. Other classes give him more trouble like HR but mainly because of bugged vines, but even say GF + CW, that CW will die then the GF will die... It's not balanced at all, they have been OP for months now and even with the coming patch, they need to be nerfed a lot further!
The common tactic now is to throw a DC on the other teams GWF, this is equivalent to a pawn holding a queen at bay in chess. You take your weakest piece and take their strongest out of the match... Whoever does this better wins the game!
BUT yes I think GF/TR/DC/CW need to brought more inline with GWFs...
That's a joke, because of a bug they can kite a GWF, but they will not kill a good one, they will simply annoy him until they eventually die.
But don't get me wrong, HR's have fox shift and aimed shot, which are both LOL damage. Seriously an at will that hits harder than most dailies and I would definitely say harder than any encounter in the game, jokes! The devs have no sense of the word balance.
Why would you want to nerf a class that feels good when you play it and makes the game fun? It doesn't make any sense and frustrates so many people.
The best DCs won't go down to GWFs, it just won't happen. I've seen stalemates for 5-10 minutes long and both players were at full HP
As for HRs... Dunno what to say, since roots going through unstoppable is an acknowledged bug and sooner or later, gonna be fixed, and then GWFs will eat the HR just as they eat CWs.
So trippy... think of other players too. The GWF class went through hell for half of this game life. Now they can finally enjoy themselves. This is good, yes? Game-->fun-->enjoyment, it's all good when things go like this.
So all that remains is giving other classes mechanics that allow them to counter savage melee damage and survived through it (if used properly), and mechanics that can do proper damage to highly armored classes (if used properly). And all will be fine, and we will move the balance from "this class beats the others" to "more skill beats less skill".
These discussions through a myriad of unsolved issues feels kind of obsolete. The majority of single target spells of a CW seems to be unaffected by ArPen so of course they have a huge disadvantage against high DR targets. Combine it with the fact that the DR of a GWF is bugged in a favorable way and some of their Debuffs/DoTs as well and there is no way you can evaluate the matchup right now.