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A Concerned GWF
soupafly
Member Posts: 13 Arc User
Hi all so recently I made another post about the PvP system, turns out I was ill informed about what I said before posting it so my apologies. As I said in my recent post my main is a GWF (Sentinel). I also have level 60 HR, TR, and CW. I have been unable to play recently, but once I came back I noticed discussions over a new PvP system being tested in the Preview Server. Unfortunately, I have not been able to gain access to the Preview Server due to my DLS (it would literally take days). In PvP I like to be the point holder. I can handle a 1v1-1v3 for a bit, I may not kill all of them, but that is not my objective. I either hold the point or distract the team while my team is capturing their point. Please note the only reason why my GWF is as effective as he is is because of all the time I put into him. He "destroys" others mainly because either I'm going up against under geared players OR they don't know how to fight me. I have played against teams and players who can bring me down, whether it be over time or just straight up. Depends on both players play style and gear. That being said as I was reading about the changes in the Preview Server:
Everything seemed fine, since everyone was affected equally, until I noticed the 50% Health Depression from Incoming Heals and Temporary Heals and not limited to or from regen, lifesteal, and soulforge (and so on).
GWF Nerf?:
I heard talk this will affect DC , but also GWF’s. I have not played a DC before, but I know their heals are affected. To me it seems as if this is a GWF nerf. The reasoning to this is that it directly impacts the GWF and here’s how:
GWF Iron Vanguard Sentinel/Destroyer abilities for PvP
Restoring Strike: Heals you based on the amount of damage that has been dealt.
Ferocious Reaction: Heals you for 10% of your max hp.
Improved Reaction: Allows you to gain an additional 10% hp from ferocious reaction.
Unstoppable: The GWF’s mechanic, which it says from http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Great_Weapon_Fighter: “Heals 10-20% of your max hit points as temporary hit points based on how much determination you had…”
Sentinel’s Aegis: Half of its ability is to cause restoring strike to heal you an additional 50% of over 3 seconds.
With all this said are all these ability going to be cut in half due to Healing Depression (HD)? From reading the post I would assume so, which to me seems as a major nerf to the GWF in PvP and the reasoning behind this is:
-It almost makes equipping restoring strike worthless when affected by HD. Example: Whats the point of getting a 2-4k heal (Due to HD) from restoring strike when it used to be 4-8k heal an encounter power or duelist flurry could easily make that heal worthless.
-Sentinel’s Aegis and Improved Reaction are feats that must specifically be spec’d into for the purpose of being healed. To me these are game changers when it comes to PvP. At the moment I use Sentinel’s Aegis, which makes a huge difference when defending a point or distracting other players. If I gain a 2-4k heal from restoring strike then I will only gain 1-2k heals, when affected by HD giving me a whopping 3-6k heal, which again an encounter power or duelist flurry could make it seem almost pointless. When I used Improved Reaction I fell in love with it (back when I was a destroyer spec). To think the enemy almost had me down and to gain 20% additional HP back was amazing and helpful for the team. However that number will decrease to 10%HP (when affected by HD), which is exactly what Ferocious Reaction heals for as a power. That almost makes it seem like a waste of feat points.
-Unstoppable our main mechanic will even be affected by it won’t it? Please tell me if I’m wrong. Nerfing the main mechanic of the GWF is like taking candy away from a baby :l.
The biggest reason why this seems like a nerf though is that the GWF is most likely to be under HD the whole time while fighting (100% percent of the time).
When I play PvP I’m usually the top of the list on who gets hit the most. I feel as if it’s going to stay the same when the changes happen. The issue I have with that is that the GWF has no dodge ability. More further analysis:
HR
-Have the ability to dodge 5 times, yes they may be small, but they are dodges.
-They have the ability to go into stealth for a limited amount of time (twice (30 second interval) if they have a full AP bar)
-The can root their opponent and move back while their opponent is rooted. They can do this routinely as well.
-They are a hybrid class so they can range from afar with out taking damage from the GWF or another Melee class that only has pure melee attacks like the GWF
TR
-Has two dodges
-Can go into stealth, meaning they can avoid being hit for a limited amount of time depending on feats and gear. This also allows their regen and lifesteal to be unaffected since they can not be hit.
-Impossible to Catch when pulled off in stealth allows them dodge every single attack for a set amount of time
-They also have several abilities to regain their stealth allowing them to stay in stealth longer
CW’s
-Three dodges
-Has a lot of immobilizers that work great when unstoppable isn’t active
-Also has a set of powers that can create large gaps
-Ranged class so can hit from afar without being hit by melee
GF’s (don’t know much about them)
-They can block :P that’s as much as I know
DC’s (don’t know much about them)
-Can go immune for a set amount of time
-Ranged class
In other words GWF’s can only fight these classes upfront while these classes (other than GF) can either do damage without being seen or from range assuring the GWF being affected by HD 80-100% of the time when in a fight, perhaps the GF faces the same problem, but I don’t know much about them. Other classes if timed right can avoid HD for a set amount a time allowing them to receive benefits of heals.
Enchantments:
It was already stated that soulforge, regen, and lifesteal will be affected by HD. I’m curios if Bloodtheft and Lifedrinker will be affected by HD as well. If this is true won’t this make the enchantments worthless? Example a Greater Lifedrinker gives back 7% of your wep damage back with every strike, if I’m affected by HD it would only be 3.5% , which to me seems pretty darn worthless (for a 1.8mil wep enchant).
Artifact:
What was the point of leveling my Crystal Blood Raven Skull to purple for the additional 70% temp HP bonus? If I’m under HD then wouldn’t it only be 35%, which isn’t the worst thing ever, but to me everyone has access to receiving the Skull why nerf something that literally costs a fortune to rank up from blue to gold?. I just feel like the Artifact and Weapon and Armor Enchantments should not be affected by HD, if they are.
Counter Argument:
Since I’ve already stated I have not been able to get on the test server and try my GWF out. Reading recent posts I heard the defensive buff being added in makes for longer matches via low damage being taken. How does the help the GWF? To me it’s nice having a defensive buff, but I rather have my heals. I’d love to know more about the defensive buff being applied in the new PvP system.
Please leave comments/feedback is wanted
The purpose of this post is not just so that I can learn more about what this new PvP system has in store for the future of GWFs, but for other GWF’s and players that don’t know about this new PvP system.
Everything seemed fine, since everyone was affected equally, until I noticed the 50% Health Depression from Incoming Heals and Temporary Heals and not limited to or from regen, lifesteal, and soulforge (and so on).
GWF Nerf?:
I heard talk this will affect DC , but also GWF’s. I have not played a DC before, but I know their heals are affected. To me it seems as if this is a GWF nerf. The reasoning to this is that it directly impacts the GWF and here’s how:
GWF Iron Vanguard Sentinel/Destroyer abilities for PvP
Restoring Strike: Heals you based on the amount of damage that has been dealt.
Ferocious Reaction: Heals you for 10% of your max hp.
Improved Reaction: Allows you to gain an additional 10% hp from ferocious reaction.
Unstoppable: The GWF’s mechanic, which it says from http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Great_Weapon_Fighter: “Heals 10-20% of your max hit points as temporary hit points based on how much determination you had…”
Sentinel’s Aegis: Half of its ability is to cause restoring strike to heal you an additional 50% of over 3 seconds.
With all this said are all these ability going to be cut in half due to Healing Depression (HD)? From reading the post I would assume so, which to me seems as a major nerf to the GWF in PvP and the reasoning behind this is:
-It almost makes equipping restoring strike worthless when affected by HD. Example: Whats the point of getting a 2-4k heal (Due to HD) from restoring strike when it used to be 4-8k heal an encounter power or duelist flurry could easily make that heal worthless.
-Sentinel’s Aegis and Improved Reaction are feats that must specifically be spec’d into for the purpose of being healed. To me these are game changers when it comes to PvP. At the moment I use Sentinel’s Aegis, which makes a huge difference when defending a point or distracting other players. If I gain a 2-4k heal from restoring strike then I will only gain 1-2k heals, when affected by HD giving me a whopping 3-6k heal, which again an encounter power or duelist flurry could make it seem almost pointless. When I used Improved Reaction I fell in love with it (back when I was a destroyer spec). To think the enemy almost had me down and to gain 20% additional HP back was amazing and helpful for the team. However that number will decrease to 10%HP (when affected by HD), which is exactly what Ferocious Reaction heals for as a power. That almost makes it seem like a waste of feat points.
-Unstoppable our main mechanic will even be affected by it won’t it? Please tell me if I’m wrong. Nerfing the main mechanic of the GWF is like taking candy away from a baby :l.
The biggest reason why this seems like a nerf though is that the GWF is most likely to be under HD the whole time while fighting (100% percent of the time).
When I play PvP I’m usually the top of the list on who gets hit the most. I feel as if it’s going to stay the same when the changes happen. The issue I have with that is that the GWF has no dodge ability. More further analysis:
HR
-Have the ability to dodge 5 times, yes they may be small, but they are dodges.
-They have the ability to go into stealth for a limited amount of time (twice (30 second interval) if they have a full AP bar)
-The can root their opponent and move back while their opponent is rooted. They can do this routinely as well.
-They are a hybrid class so they can range from afar with out taking damage from the GWF or another Melee class that only has pure melee attacks like the GWF
TR
-Has two dodges
-Can go into stealth, meaning they can avoid being hit for a limited amount of time depending on feats and gear. This also allows their regen and lifesteal to be unaffected since they can not be hit.
-Impossible to Catch when pulled off in stealth allows them dodge every single attack for a set amount of time
-They also have several abilities to regain their stealth allowing them to stay in stealth longer
CW’s
-Three dodges
-Has a lot of immobilizers that work great when unstoppable isn’t active
-Also has a set of powers that can create large gaps
-Ranged class so can hit from afar without being hit by melee
GF’s (don’t know much about them)
-They can block :P that’s as much as I know
DC’s (don’t know much about them)
-Can go immune for a set amount of time
-Ranged class
In other words GWF’s can only fight these classes upfront while these classes (other than GF) can either do damage without being seen or from range assuring the GWF being affected by HD 80-100% of the time when in a fight, perhaps the GF faces the same problem, but I don’t know much about them. Other classes if timed right can avoid HD for a set amount a time allowing them to receive benefits of heals.
Enchantments:
It was already stated that soulforge, regen, and lifesteal will be affected by HD. I’m curios if Bloodtheft and Lifedrinker will be affected by HD as well. If this is true won’t this make the enchantments worthless? Example a Greater Lifedrinker gives back 7% of your wep damage back with every strike, if I’m affected by HD it would only be 3.5% , which to me seems pretty darn worthless (for a 1.8mil wep enchant).
Artifact:
What was the point of leveling my Crystal Blood Raven Skull to purple for the additional 70% temp HP bonus? If I’m under HD then wouldn’t it only be 35%, which isn’t the worst thing ever, but to me everyone has access to receiving the Skull why nerf something that literally costs a fortune to rank up from blue to gold?. I just feel like the Artifact and Weapon and Armor Enchantments should not be affected by HD, if they are.
Counter Argument:
Since I’ve already stated I have not been able to get on the test server and try my GWF out. Reading recent posts I heard the defensive buff being added in makes for longer matches via low damage being taken. How does the help the GWF? To me it’s nice having a defensive buff, but I rather have my heals. I’d love to know more about the defensive buff being applied in the new PvP system.
Please leave comments/feedback is wanted
The purpose of this post is not just so that I can learn more about what this new PvP system has in store for the future of GWFs, but for other GWF’s and players that don’t know about this new PvP system.
Post edited by soupafly on
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Comments
All we can do is pray now, that the developers stop taking advice of the criers. (They are already demanding more nerfs, on top of the already known nerfs...)
Above is the post I was trying to insert earlier, just a reference, a post on what they plan on changing in the next big patch. Here you go.
Jugger Conq GF
....
Did I miss something in the whole day I was off?
ALL CLASSES are affected. ALL CLASSES stack regen&HP these days in PvP, not just GWFs, some more than other true, but my CW has 30K HP and 1450 Regen for example, and there are other CWs with 35K+ HP and 2000 Regen, which brings them almost to usual GWF levels.
ALL CLASSES have same access to Tenacity.
No worries, GWF is just as uberpowerful in the current Tenacity incarnation as it is on Live. You don't believe me? My friend ayroux made a good topic that showcased GWF abilities with Tenacity gear on the new system.
You guys are so worried about your GWFs, as if your class if the one and only affected by the changes.
PS: just as a short sidenote, did I mention spike damage that these days might worry you in Live is gone? So even less worries for GWFs.
If anything, GWFs are the most favored class yet again under the new system, since defense/deflect/Tenacity all stack, and GWFs usually bring more of these in games.
Thank you for pointing that out on my original post I meant to say that all classes were affected equally, until I noticed the 50% HD. That has now been fixed. Like I said in my OP I am not able to reach the test server at the moment, so I'm unaware of the positive or negative feedback about tenacity, which is half the purpose of this post to inform others (mainly GWF's) about tenacity.
The only thing that concerns me in the patch is like I said it effects GWF's directly (their powers) I have not played a DC therefore I don't know how they are affected. As far as I know/recall CW's don't have a feat designed for them to regain HP (two feats) or specific powers either. Is that not a nerf towards GWF's? How is not a nerf if their mechanic, which is meant to give them back 10-20% HP back is reduced to 5-10%(again have not been on the test server so I don't know if this is true, I'd imagine it would be since you receive Temp HP). Other classes mechanic's remain unaffected by this (if the GWF mechanic is affected by HD in the first place) and some classes paragon paths are not directly affected by the change either, again I don't know about DC or GF as I do not play them, but I do know the GWF's Main Senti feat is. There is also the concept that it nerfs/reduces our healing from specific encounter power and passive power. If the mechanic (unstoppable) is hurt by HD that's like reducing a TR's stealth or a CW's extra encounter power by 50% ( maybe that's to far perhaps 30%-25%).
Anyway it's just my opinion on this matter at this moment. I respect every ones :P thanks for taking the time to post also can you link your friends post about tenacity? Usually the posts I've been reading about tenacity are negative. I also understand with "nerfs" or negative changes comes positive changes, unfortunately a majority of what I've been reading has been negative about tenacity.
P.S. I Would LOVE to know if the GWF's unstoppable is affected by HD as I do not know, but assume since it gives Temp HP.
Yes, that is one of my concerns to, it's not just GWFs however, but other players to who bought healing Armor and Weapon Enchants specifically for PvP. Like my example if Lifedrinker, which gives you 7% of weapon damage as a heal for every hit, is reduced to 3.5% (After HD) it will make what is currently a 1.8mil-2mil+ weapon enchant seem almost worthless in my opinion. Even those who spent LOADS of AD to rank up their Skull Artifact to gold for that 90% temp hp and to find out it would really only be 45% after HD kicks in. I don't know, but I would be a little bit upset, but that's just me :P. Thanks for the post
DCs are affected the most I'd say.
As for CWs:
- Regen&HP is EXTREMELY important for CWs in PvP. More HP, more Regen, bigger ticks=better kiting, better survivability - by far (nerfed hard under Tenacity)
- Soulforge (basically everyone uses it for a reason these days) - nerfed hard under Tenacity
- healing artifacts - nerfed hard under Tenacity
- DC ability to keep us alive - nerfed hard under Tenacity
- lifesteal - nerfed hard under Tenacity, but not that important
This is how CWs are affected by the new system.
Yeah some classes are affected more than others. But ALL classes suffer. So while your GWF will suffer a lot from 50% HD, you will be facing opponents under the same debuff.
Trust me, GWFs are still the best class for PvP in the new system. Maybe GFs are close now, with their class being nicely buffed. Then HRs, DCs, and TRs kinda in the same zone of usefulness. And below all, the least useful is the CW, just as squishy, but now also having hugely crippled damage...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8cqqiRWDQU&feature=youtu.be
My god
Look, that CW is a nice YT poster&person, cool clips, but good PvPer? 200 regen ticks at low HP? When I see that I already want to turn off the clip and leave. Bad choice of spells too. All in all, just bad advice to any poor CWs that see that. Even the posted build is bad for PvP, no Transcended Master for Thaum? 2/3 Toughness? Bitter Cold but no Severe Reaction?
And the GWF? BAD. Sorry but VERY BAD. Probably the type that dies from one shard rotation crit. The GWFs I meet in PvP are like 15 times better than this guy, without any exaggeration. I might fraps an inhouse or premade once and post it, so you can see real PvP GWFs like Hydra or GodSon. Until that, I recommend that people should watch stox's stream on twitch if you wanna see real GWF, or ayroux's clips he posted in this subforum.
I'm sorry, but this kinda videos just make me both angry&sad. They are bad advice to CWs, and create a false image of the class by accentuation won fights and leaving out the countless defeats.
And people don't complain about GWFs like the one in the video, which pretty much anyone can kill, including a CW with a questionable build, rotation and gear (even without daily/pvorpal...).
People complain about GWFs that tank 2-3 guys, are glued with threatening rush to squishies, and also hit like a tank.
Well it is understandable if that GWF's a Destroyer.
But it's a Sentinel and an Iron Vanguard at that, I'm utterly speechless.
So all your complain and nerf req based upon 3 or 4 GWF OMG.....
Mybe y are the one who can't play well in pvp dont y think .
Y shoud consider others options not just y own.
Mybe y build is not above to other ppls build.
Try to be bit more constructive, and not just complain and ask about nerfs why y see few good ppl how beat y .
I personally never asked for ANY nerfs, to ANY class.
But that doesn't mean I will not speak the truth about the state of the things, from my perspective. You think I'm a bad CW cause I think GWFs can be very powerful?
Even good GWFs think the same
So yeah, feel free to think I'm a bad CW
And if any class would know about being very powerful it is CWs.....
BTW from my understanding the proposed (tenacity) changes doesn't affect PvE in way - is that right? The reason is that right now GWF is pretty good in PvE (although still outclassed by CWs and DCs) and while it appears that SENTINEL GWFs are too good in PvP, it would be a shame to have PvE affected.
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
Yes, your class mechanic is being nerfed. I play a DC as a main, if you think getting your class mechanic "tab" ability nerfed is bad, imagine how I feel about half of my abilities becoming useless? No person who can look at the facts of current day Neverwinter PvP rationally and without overdue emotional attachment would disagree that GWFs need adjustment. They are currently just too powerful. If a newbie asks in PE zone chat what's the best PvP character, they will overwhelmingly be suggested to roll a GWF.
It's hard to play a class that you enjoy, especially if you played it _before_ it became a bandwagon class, and have your power reduced. But GWFs do not exist in a vacuum. Your personal enjoyment of the game may at times be less important than the enjoyment of the far greater number of people NOT playing your class.
GWFs are straight up too powerful in PvP. They will, and must, be nerfed, or you will find yourself PvPing against nothing other than GWFs. It will come; that is the nature of MMO life. If you want to do something about it, crying, "don't nerf me," will do nothing, rather suggest to the developers constructive ways in which your class could be brought into balance with other classes. If you don't want to face a flat dps or defense reduction somewhere down the line, suggest an alternative. If you can't think of an alternative, when the hammer falls get on the test server and test the heck out that nerf. Get data, get everything you can. Make your case if you think it is too much of a nerf, but if you think it is too LITTLE of a nerf make that case too. Better to get it over with rather than have another future nerf that you could potentially dislike even more.
-my advice
Good one Trace I laughed a bit
I pugged a couple matches today and ran into 2 GF and 1 GWF on my point. I 1v3-ed them. One Sentinel 1v3-ing three tanks.
Now that's just stupid.
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
On a serious note, I understand nerfing regen, lifesteal, etc. Nerfing temp hp and class feats though, I'm not sold on that being a good idea at all. I mean how much of your healing do you really feel that popping unstoppable gives you? Personally I think regen is way more, probably 90:10 with regen in the lead.
Sometimes, yes, sadly. Often, no. In this case, there were only 3 on point at a time.
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
I really want to point out that what makes GWF's fun is not that they are OP but that they have such a wide variety of useful feats/powers/abilities. I will admit the healing can be taken down a couple notches but it looks like gwfs are being hit really hard with this. No other class depends on self-healing as much as the gwf. The huge nerf to gwfs will balance them out more in pvp (imo) but will seriously hurt them in pve. Finally a gwf is a "real" tank and not a flying walenda version of a gf, that no one really wants to take through a dungeon. IMO real balance would be nerfing cw's in pve AS they nerf gwfs in pvp.
Jugger Conq GF
....
HD only effects pvp. There is no nerf to GWF for pve.
I shut up now. :P
Jugger Conq GF
....
OK then I don't need to reply to this any more I suppose :P
I'd leave PvE out of the PvP-only discussion. PvE is flawed by dungeon design with countless adds. Not to mention GWFs are good in it and there are many people doing 2-3 GWF runs just as they were doing 2-3 CW runs before.
He was not talking about regeneration or any other healing methid available to all classes.
He was talking about very specific feats and powers of the GWF, that are getting a straight 50% nerf due to healing depression.
Do you have restoring strike on your CW? No. Restoring strike is a GWF encounter designed to heal you during combat. With healing depression, it gets cut in half.
Do you have sentinel Aegis on your CW/TR/HR? No. it gives, as one of its effects, a 50% healing boost to restoring strike. Again, nerfed by 50% through healing depression.
Do you have unstoppable on your CW? No. Unstoppable is designed to give temporary HP during combat. Again, temporary HP from unstoppable got nerfed already. Now, with healing depression they get nerfed again by 50%, for all the GWF builds.
Do you have unstoppable recovery feat on your CW (5% HP healing on unstoppable)? No. It gets nerfed by 50%.
Do you have ferocious reaction on your CW? No. It gets a 50% nerf through healing depression.
The point is, outside the regeneration-life steal stuff, GWFs have very specific powers and feats made to heal them, if used, during combat. So, while HD for other classes is a nerf to regeneration- lifesteal-healing artifacts, for GWFs it is IN ADDITION, a nerf to many powers and feats very specific of the class.
Therefore, HD results in a very specific, additional nerf to GWFs and, i suppose, DCs.
I assure you that stacked CWs in parties are WAY more than stacked GWFs. The fact that someone started to stack GWFs, does not change the fact that, due to dungeon design or whatever, CWs have been for a very long time, and are right now, the class that is "OP" for PvE, very often stacked and Always needed.
GWFs, even after module 2, are not. But i don't read CWs asking for a fix to that, It's fine for them.
I guess everyone have different priorities.
Still, GWFs are the only class designed to absorb damage directly 100% of the time, and turn it in temporary HP/ DR. Or to fight in the brawl and turn the damage dealt to enemies, in self-healing.
As a consequence, they will be affected by a chain of collateral nerfs to many feats and powers.
Which will not happen to CWs, for example.
As someone also demonstrated (ayroux i think) in another thread, tenacity will improve resistance more for squishy classes than tank classes.
EDIT: it's here, last post of the page, by a dev
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?583241-Tenacity-Discussion-Thread/page22
The worries of the OP are understandable, if you ask me.
Just to clarify:
as mentioned above, from the dev's post, tenacity gives a bigger benefit to squishy classes/ builds.
also, healing depression already hurts more the high regeneration/ lifesteal tank builds for GWFs and DCs, since they are the ones that rely more on self healing during combat.
The problem is, at least ofr GWFs (but i guess, even more for DCs) the Whole class gets also a collateral, 50% nerf to feats and powers specific of the class.
Restoring strike
Sentinel Aegis
Unstoppable (again. we already got a temporary hp nerf on unstoppable)
Unstoppable recovery
leaving out the ones we share with GFs. These are very specific nerfs, unless CWs are affected by restoring strike nerfs, unstoppable nerfs, sentinel Aegis nerfs, unstoppable recovery nerfs.
This is what the OP meant.
Now, to answer the OP directly:
yes, GWFs get a bigger nerf in survivability.
But you've to consider that other classes get hurt more on other parts of the game.
To be fair, TRs are hit more than anyone by critical resistance and spike damage reduction.
CWs, beinga controller class, will get hurt more by cc resistance from tenacity.
GFs will be more tanky but will deal less damage with their prone chain moves.
We'll have to test, but my impression is that each class gets hurt more in different parts of the gameplay, and the overall result could be balanced. We'll see.
Multiplicative resistance does not benefit Squishies more than tanks. It is even. It might give squishies more raw damage reduction than tanks, but in terms of gain in % of effective HPs, it comes out the same.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
Excuse me, but, assuming the amount of total HP was the same before and after tenacity, if a squishy class with tenacity gains more raw DR, then it's still an improvement over tank builds.
Obviously, a tank build is still tankier. But in comparison to how things are without tenacity, a squishy with tenacity is tankier, while a tank with tenacity is "a bit tankier".