I haven't noticed a difference when fighting GWF on the test shard they still seem OP God mode.
any one else notice the same thing?
The survivability has been adequately suppressed with heal depression, but then the damage done to GWFs have also been suppressed by Tenacity -- which basically offset any intended 'nerf' to the GWFs and simply made everything same.
So, some of us are discussing changing build/stats to see if it can offset Tenacity and deal as much damage to GWFs as we do now. I mean, we already are used to surviving the amount of damage enemies deal on us currently. If we have Tenacity aiding in damage reduction, that means we can change our specs and push more to offense until the damage we receive with Tenacity is roughly the same as the damage we receive now.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Tenacity, being a % of flat damage reduction added AFTER DR from gear, should work exactly like that. You can go more offensive, your DR get lower but, at the same time, the more damage you get, the higher the % of it reduced by tenacity is. If you get 7000 damage, with tenacity at 20% it becomes 5600 (-1400 damage). If you get 9000 damage, with tenacity it becomes 7200 (-1800 damage). But consider it also works the opposite way. The higher your burst damage, the higher the reduction from tenacity. So a "damage over time" rather than burst damage approach, should be the way to go. Considering you have a bigger cc advantage over other classes compared to how it is now on live.
CWs shuld be able to focus a bit more on CC and damage over time. Also, prone duration is reduced a lot. Which means that you will be proned for a very little time and be able to teleport away faster. In practice, while a GWF can still land his encounter combo (usually for IVs frontline-takedown-IBS), you can get away faster (less at-wills hitting you, less deep gash which, also, being a crit, should be reduced in PvP).
What i am concerned about, regarding GWFs, is tenacity being applied to restoring strike.
It is not a OP power. Deals damage, heals, but you've to give up on CC power (either flourish or takedown), which is not possible with tenacity reducing the prone duration, unless you go for cc+DPS encounter, wait cooldown, then go for cc+ DPS encounter again. You could do that if the healing from RS plus the buff from sentinel Aegis, would heal you enough to let you split your rotation in 2 parts.
But reducing its healing by half, makes it unusable in PvP, limiting the GWF choice in PvP to either takedown-frontline-IBS or flourish-takedown-IBS. Counting its healing is already decreased by tenacity (RS heals based on damage dealt. Tenacity reduces damage, which means RS deals less damage and, as a consequence, it heals less).
This way, RS will be a PvE-only power, to use when tanking a boss, and PvP would be reduced to the same combo for every GWF.
Are roar and flourish stuns reduced too? Cause if they are, it may be they are not usable anymore. Can't we get a "practice mode" on PTR against a tenacity NPC, just to be able to test this stuff?
Tenacity, being a % of flat damage reduction added AFTER DR from gear, should work exactly like that. You can go more offensive, your DR get lower but, at the same time, the more damage you get, the higher the % of it reduced by tenacity is. If you get 7000 damage, with tenacity at 20% it becomes 5600 (-1400 damage). If you get 9000 damage, with tenacity it becomes 7200 (-1800 damage). But consider it also works the opposite way. The higher your burst damage, the higher the reduction from tenacity. So a "damage over time" rather than burst damage approach, should be the way to go. Considering you have a bigger cc advantage over other classes compared to how it is now on live.
CWs shuld be able to focus a bit more on CC and damage over time. Also, prone duration is reduced a lot. Which means that you will be proned for a very little time and be able to teleport away faster. In practice, while a GWF can still land his encounter combo (usually for IVs frontline-takedown-IBS), you can get away faster (less at-wills hitting you, less deep gash which, also, being a crit, should be reduced in PvP).
What i am concerned about, regarding GWFs, is tenacity being applied to restoring strike.
It is not a OP power. Deals damage, heals, but you've to give up on CC power (either flourish or takedown), which is not possible with tenacity reducing the prone duration, unless you go for cc+DPS encounter, wait cooldown, then go for cc+ DPS encounter again. You could do that if the healing from RS plus the buff from sentinel Aegis, would heal you enough to let you split your rotation in 2 parts.
But reducing its healing by half, makes it unusable in PvP, limiting the GWF choice in PvP to either takedown-frontline-IBS or flourish-takedown-IBS. Counting its healing is already decreased by tenacity (RS heals based on damage dealt. Tenacity reduces damage, which means RS deals less damage and, as a consequence, it heals less).
This way, RS will be a PvE-only power, to use when tanking a boss, and PvP would be reduced to the same combo for every GWF.
Are roar and flourish stuns reduced too? Cause if they are, it may be they are not usable anymore. Can't we get a "practice mode" on PTR against a tenacity NPC, just to be able to test this stuff?
This is excellent info and analysis, thank you. I tend to not follow te same rotation every single match on my gwf, fs-td-ibs actualy gets boring after too many times. So I will actually slot things like restoring strike, mighty leap, and punishing charge in the place of take down. Restoring strike does some damage and actually heals a fair amount. Mighty leap coupled with restoring strike is about as reliable as the TR's Deft Strike, for some reason RS seems to hit almost no matter what. ML+RS or IBS really helps vs better geared gwfs and GF's in general. Also no one really is expecting you to suddenly land in the middle of their concentrated group. That can be panic inducing. Though its an encounter I think it is a far superior gap closer than threatening rush, which honestly is just silly.
Along the thoughts of giving gwfs something to do other than the same old rotation, it would, imo, make sense to encourage more Swordmasters by adding/improving the "mobility" powers.
It really seems that the problem is lkely to be exacerbated though because it appears that the "fix" will just narrow down what is "optimal" for a gwf even more- it will be down to that one rotation. They really should be trying to do away with that, not make it necessary.
So pando, u mean you are unhappy abt your RS trading cc and damage potential for healing should not be nerfed or debuffed? We clerics with ALL HEALING AND TEMP HP SKILLS INCLUDING DAILIES NERFED!!! Healers got severe problem in healing, for me i got all my 3 BIS encounters, 2 BIS at-wills, 2 BIS dailies, 1/2 BIS class feature and around 10 feats affected, so why saying RS should not be nerfed?
Btw, not using the 3 BIS GWF pvp rotation is bad unless you want to play differently in pvp, I wouldn't recommend you to take RS in pvp unless you are in opposite team, so means one less threat to my team.... why giving up cc??
So pando, u mean you are unhappy abt your RS trading cc and damage potential for healing should not be nerfed or debuffed? We clerics with ALL HEALING AND TEMP HP SKILLS INCLUDING DAILIES NERFED!!! Healers got severe problem in healing, for me i got all my 3 BIS encounters, 2 BIS at-wills, 2 BIS dailies, 1/2 BIS class feature and around 10 feats affected, so why saying RS should not be nerfed?
Btw, not using the 3 BIS GWF pvp rotation is bad unless you want to play differently in pvp, I wouldn't recommend you to take RS in pvp unless you are in opposite team, so means one less threat to my team.... why giving up cc??
I've already stated, many times, that DCs should keep their heals. And 've read they are already working on DCs to improve them like they did to CWs, which now ignore 66% of tenacity cc reduction and are able to cc again.
So they are working to fix stuff gone wrong with these PvP changes, and will keep working on it using feedbacks.
Now, since we're talking about GWFs in this thread, and not DCs, i'll say again, that restoring strike being under healing depression is a bad thing.
First, it's not a OP power in any way. Second: with tenacity reducing damage and crits, considering RS heals for a % of damage dealt, it already gets a nerf. Why nerfing it further in PvP? It makes no sense at all.
And you say this:
Btw, not using the 3 BIS GWF pvp rotation is bad unless you want to play differently in pvp, I wouldn't recommend you to take RS in pvp unless you are in opposite team, so means one less threat to my team.... why giving up cc??
Exactly. Play different. The game should encourage, and the devs are trying to, make people use all the powers they have got, changing them depending on situation and playstyle. There should not be anything like "BiS rotation". We should have a bunch of different power, not 3 powers that are the ones to use, and the rest that are useless.
Now, using RS in PvP would be a choice with tenacity reducing cc, to switch some cc for healing. Frontline gets nerfed by 25% on single target damage and obviously gets the cc reduction. Someone could decide to play differently and go for takedown, RS and IBS.
But with RS the way it is now, you get:
20% less damage, meaning 20% less healing.
20% additional crit resistance, which means critical heals are reduced further.
Then you add 50% from healing depression.
Pretty much, you heal for nothing. Which means, RS is not an option in PvP anymore.
Which means, EVERYONE go with the same, **** rotation.
I went for hybrid build, even if in PvP it is at a disadvantage against full tank sentinels, not just to be able to be good in both PvP and PvE. But also cause i didn't want to do the exact same build, same gear, same rotation of every single PvP GWF.
I use barkshield, not just cause it's a good PvP enchant most of the time, but also cause with 99.9% of players going for soulforged, at least i could get something different.
Will probably switch from vorpal to terror just cause 99.9% of players use vorpal.
I think devs should encourage players to take different routes, with nothing called "BiS" and every single player using the same stuff, doing the same things.
Exactly, i also hope there are more option to play in pvp but in fact there is already a "best rotation" "best spec" etc in pvp that surpass the other playstyles. For example destroyer vs sent, obviously sent is better, cc or damage skills, obviously cc is better! I also enjoy being unique as i don't use astral shield like the others 99.99% DC and using my own buffing feats instead of being a sent halfling or faithful healing bot. But the sad part is, if you don't take the BIS rotation and spec, you already lose at the starting point.
Ps: Sorry for saying about healing depression on DC, that is off topic~~ Sorry ya~~
Exactly, i also hope there are more option to play in pvp but in fact there is already a "best rotation" "best spec" etc in pvp that surpass the other playstyles. For example destroyer vs sent, obviously sent is better, cc or damage skills, obviously cc is better! I also enjoy being unique as i don't use astral shield like the others 99.99% DC and using my own buffing feats instead of being a sent halfling or faithful healing bot. But the sad part is, if you don't take the BIS rotation and spec, you already lose at the starting point.
Ps: Sorry for saying about healing depression on DC, that is off topic~~ Sorry ya~~
I have to disagree that "bis" or optimal is the ONLY way to go to win matches. They are what they are: optimal. The best way to win almost every match. Most matches can be won simply by being better than average because by definition, most teams are average. Some matches are vs better than average, few are vs good teams, very few are vs very good teams and very very rarely there is a match vs elite teams. I don't see a big problem with that, but definitely the bar overall can be raised by allowing more optimal builds/rotations. That would be a massive step towards more competitive matches overall. Better, imo, than adding even more complexity in terms of additional and (imo) superfluous stats like tenacity and conditions like healing depression.
The game doesn't need fixed, it just needs improved. There is a big difference between the two.
This is a direct GWF nerf, as you already mentioned and i am concerned about it, aswell. I am not a sentinel GWF and it seems the nerfs are affecting non sentinel builds way more, than the actual class-spec that everybody's complaining about.
All we can do is pray now, that the developers stop taking advice of the criers. (They are already demanding more nerfs, on top of the already known nerfs...)
Just like the last was directed at the DC's, all they are doing is trying to balance the field between the classes, It's going to take some time I'm sure. All you can hope for is that it will not hurt as much as you fear.
Comments
Let's see how it goes. Hope someone tests it as soon as possible.
any one else notice the same thing?
The survivability has been adequately suppressed with heal depression, but then the damage done to GWFs have also been suppressed by Tenacity -- which basically offset any intended 'nerf' to the GWFs and simply made everything same.
So, some of us are discussing changing build/stats to see if it can offset Tenacity and deal as much damage to GWFs as we do now. I mean, we already are used to surviving the amount of damage enemies deal on us currently. If we have Tenacity aiding in damage reduction, that means we can change our specs and push more to offense until the damage we receive with Tenacity is roughly the same as the damage we receive now.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
CWs shuld be able to focus a bit more on CC and damage over time. Also, prone duration is reduced a lot. Which means that you will be proned for a very little time and be able to teleport away faster. In practice, while a GWF can still land his encounter combo (usually for IVs frontline-takedown-IBS), you can get away faster (less at-wills hitting you, less deep gash which, also, being a crit, should be reduced in PvP).
What i am concerned about, regarding GWFs, is tenacity being applied to restoring strike.
It is not a OP power. Deals damage, heals, but you've to give up on CC power (either flourish or takedown), which is not possible with tenacity reducing the prone duration, unless you go for cc+DPS encounter, wait cooldown, then go for cc+ DPS encounter again. You could do that if the healing from RS plus the buff from sentinel Aegis, would heal you enough to let you split your rotation in 2 parts.
But reducing its healing by half, makes it unusable in PvP, limiting the GWF choice in PvP to either takedown-frontline-IBS or flourish-takedown-IBS. Counting its healing is already decreased by tenacity (RS heals based on damage dealt. Tenacity reduces damage, which means RS deals less damage and, as a consequence, it heals less).
This way, RS will be a PvE-only power, to use when tanking a boss, and PvP would be reduced to the same combo for every GWF.
Are roar and flourish stuns reduced too? Cause if they are, it may be they are not usable anymore. Can't we get a "practice mode" on PTR against a tenacity NPC, just to be able to test this stuff?
This is excellent info and analysis, thank you. I tend to not follow te same rotation every single match on my gwf, fs-td-ibs actualy gets boring after too many times. So I will actually slot things like restoring strike, mighty leap, and punishing charge in the place of take down. Restoring strike does some damage and actually heals a fair amount. Mighty leap coupled with restoring strike is about as reliable as the TR's Deft Strike, for some reason RS seems to hit almost no matter what. ML+RS or IBS really helps vs better geared gwfs and GF's in general. Also no one really is expecting you to suddenly land in the middle of their concentrated group. That can be panic inducing. Though its an encounter I think it is a far superior gap closer than threatening rush, which honestly is just silly.
Along the thoughts of giving gwfs something to do other than the same old rotation, it would, imo, make sense to encourage more Swordmasters by adding/improving the "mobility" powers.
It really seems that the problem is lkely to be exacerbated though because it appears that the "fix" will just narrow down what is "optimal" for a gwf even more- it will be down to that one rotation. They really should be trying to do away with that, not make it necessary.
Jugger Conq GF
....
Btw, not using the 3 BIS GWF pvp rotation is bad unless you want to play differently in pvp, I wouldn't recommend you to take RS in pvp unless you are in opposite team, so means one less threat to my team.... why giving up cc??
Why run around pvp drunk and nekkid with unicorn heads playing "who can die the most"? The same reason everyone plays the game: its fun.
Jugger Conq GF
....
I've already stated, many times, that DCs should keep their heals. And 've read they are already working on DCs to improve them like they did to CWs, which now ignore 66% of tenacity cc reduction and are able to cc again.
So they are working to fix stuff gone wrong with these PvP changes, and will keep working on it using feedbacks.
Now, since we're talking about GWFs in this thread, and not DCs, i'll say again, that restoring strike being under healing depression is a bad thing.
First, it's not a OP power in any way. Second: with tenacity reducing damage and crits, considering RS heals for a % of damage dealt, it already gets a nerf. Why nerfing it further in PvP? It makes no sense at all.
And you say this:
Exactly. Play different. The game should encourage, and the devs are trying to, make people use all the powers they have got, changing them depending on situation and playstyle. There should not be anything like "BiS rotation". We should have a bunch of different power, not 3 powers that are the ones to use, and the rest that are useless.
Now, using RS in PvP would be a choice with tenacity reducing cc, to switch some cc for healing. Frontline gets nerfed by 25% on single target damage and obviously gets the cc reduction. Someone could decide to play differently and go for takedown, RS and IBS.
But with RS the way it is now, you get:
20% less damage, meaning 20% less healing.
20% additional crit resistance, which means critical heals are reduced further.
Then you add 50% from healing depression.
Pretty much, you heal for nothing. Which means, RS is not an option in PvP anymore.
Which means, EVERYONE go with the same, **** rotation.
I went for hybrid build, even if in PvP it is at a disadvantage against full tank sentinels, not just to be able to be good in both PvP and PvE. But also cause i didn't want to do the exact same build, same gear, same rotation of every single PvP GWF.
I use barkshield, not just cause it's a good PvP enchant most of the time, but also cause with 99.9% of players going for soulforged, at least i could get something different.
Will probably switch from vorpal to terror just cause 99.9% of players use vorpal.
I think devs should encourage players to take different routes, with nothing called "BiS" and every single player using the same stuff, doing the same things.
Ps: Sorry for saying about healing depression on DC, that is off topic~~ Sorry ya~~
I have to disagree that "bis" or optimal is the ONLY way to go to win matches. They are what they are: optimal. The best way to win almost every match. Most matches can be won simply by being better than average because by definition, most teams are average. Some matches are vs better than average, few are vs good teams, very few are vs very good teams and very very rarely there is a match vs elite teams. I don't see a big problem with that, but definitely the bar overall can be raised by allowing more optimal builds/rotations. That would be a massive step towards more competitive matches overall. Better, imo, than adding even more complexity in terms of additional and (imo) superfluous stats like tenacity and conditions like healing depression.
The game doesn't need fixed, it just needs improved. There is a big difference between the two.
Jugger Conq GF
....
Just like the last was directed at the DC's, all they are doing is trying to balance the field between the classes, It's going to take some time I'm sure. All you can hope for is that it will not hurt as much as you fear.