Sorry overddrive, but you lost all credibility when you pretend that heavy tank+heavy damage is acceptable in MMOs.
Sith Juggernaut SWTOR, heavy damage, heavy tank. SWTOR is a top 10 mmo that makes NWO look like a tiny bug in terms of player population. Lost credibility? Nope.
Also CW is NOT heavy CC, and it will be even LESS CC very soon.
Chill stacks, entangle, stealing time, icy terrain, repel, and on and on and on. The coming changes to cw cc is criminal. If unstoppable and itc makes cw less cc than they need adjusted.
Also CW is NOT heavy damage. GWF dishes more heavy damage overall, run ACT on a match and you will see.
Not heavy damage because cw playing to its strength (at range) most of the match means cw playing off-node most of the match. In a close in combat pvp mode (node control) of course its uber damage ranged spells are not going to match the heavy damage close in casts of a superior close in class.
Also GWF is NOT low CC, it has very good prones, including AoE ranged prone (lulz.... )
Low cc relative to all the other classes. Takedown and front line surge. Thats it! In a CLOSE IN combat game, these CLOSE IN cc moves are of course going to be slotted in a rotation together and the gwf seems godlike. It is not. It is simply the optimum class in this given pvp mode.
Heavy armor, CC invulnerability on taking damage, Prones, speed boost, heavy damage...
And you think they are balanced in PvP.
OK. Seems legit.
Zero ranged damage. And no there is no cc invulnerability, there is cc mitigation. Invulnerability would be 100% of the time which means you don't use your cc on a gwf while it is in unstoppable. Which oddly enough can't happen when your gwf is prone. Wait till the gwf comes out of unstoppable and then cc it. You know this.
You are reacting in an understandably emotional and unreasonable way because your class has been forced to play in a pvp mode in which it is ultimately suboptimal.
BTW I love my cw but will not touch pvp with it. That is like playing a game in which you are set up to fail from the start. No thanks. So I run my gwf in pvp. It is actually a lot of fun. Even if that means a guild premade where we are all running around nekkid and drunk with unicorn heads playing "who can die the most" and laughing our butts off the whole time. *cough*. Now gwf is going to be nerfed heavily so I am leveling a tr. Which will take the gwfs place as the target for massive groans and qq from people who play classes that are suboptimal in the given pvp mode.
An easy fix could be to make the base tenacity also a pvp buff tuned by class :
So CW could have a way to increase control duration in PvP only and DC could have a more interesting role.
The melee Vs range pvp isn't a problem if ranged have tool to create distance and player skill make the melee use it's distance reduction tool used in nothing. The main problem I see here is the "recovery" animation after a teleport (dodge, ...). The distance gained is lost because opponent can run behind you as you recover and be nearly here in time.
I think most of people here I haven't see that Dev won't let think like this.
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andferne3Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 104Bounty Hunter
Sith Juggernaut SWTOR, heavy damage, heavy tank. SWTOR is a top 10 mmo that makes NWO look like a tiny bug in terms of player population. Lost credibility? Nope.
Heavy damage? Hardly, not unless you are rolling as a smash monkey. Then if you are lolsmashlol, you are losing out on a lot of survivability.
The melee Vs range pvp isn't a problem if ranged have tool to create distance and player skill make the melee use it's distance reduction tool used in nothing.
This is the reason why balance is very important. The ability of a ranged class to kite must not be linked to only "how good he is, how skilled he is". It must also be linked to how skilled the melee players is. Which means, if you are a skilled CW and i am a equally skilled GWF, you can kite me a bit AFTER dealing me damage from a safe distance, but i'll catch up. From what i often read, it seems like many CWs want a "if i'm skilled, i can kite you forever" system. There was a TR in another thread, whining about Threat Rush and frontline, and he said "before module 2 i was able to kite GWFs forever, now i can't". I think a balance requires something in the middle.
Now, threat rush must be fixed to be non-spammable, and that's a given.
It's also a given that CWs, as they are now, are at a disadvantage against a GWF.
But it's also true, for example, that before module 2, the only way a GWF got to catch up on a TR or on a CW was roar, which is a near-to-no-damage, 1 second stun power. Cause sprint, unstoppable and bravery were not Always enough to counter the ranged cc combined with repel and teleports against a strong CW. Same thing goes for TRs able to make smooth and fast transitions from ITC to dodge immunity to stealth. Roar and then takedown were the only way to catch them eventually.
TR and Frontline changed that, but a bit too much, to the point of making GWFs unkitable.
The point is to balance PvP so that a CW or TR or HR can evade-kite for some time, more than they can now based on skills, but the GWF have a way to catch up eventually and have his chance to hit. How fast, is determined by his skills.
A way to make it is, to me, to make TR not spammable (frontline is ok. Damage got nerfed on single targets and cooldown is 19 seconds. I think it's enough "cons", for the "pro" of getting a ranged prone power) and reduce it's range. At the same time, let CWs keep their cc ability putting a specific cc-increase stat on CWs PvP gear.
This is the reason why balance is very important. The ability of a ranged class to kite must not be linked to only "how good he is, how skilled he is". It must also be linked to how skilled the melee players is. Which means, if you are a skilled CW and i am a equally skilled GWF, you can kite me a bit AFTER dealing me damage from a safe distance, but i'll catch up. From what i often read, it seems like many CWs want a "if i'm skilled, i can kite you forever" system. There was a TR in another thread, whining about Threat Rush and frontline, and he said "before module 2 i was able to kite GWFs forever, now i can't". I think a balance requires something in the middle..
Exactly this. Given equally skilled ranged and melee combatants while the ranged class should be able to kite for a while eventually the melee has to be able to get into damage-dealing range.
Exactly this. Given equally skilled ranged and melee combatants while the ranged class should be able to kite for a while eventually the melee has to be able to get into damage-dealing range.
Except catching up should be a constant effort, a mind-game of sort, something that requires as much experience to be made possible -- lest the melee class is befuddled by inhibiting powers and killed off from the distance.
Unfortunately, catching up is super easy. Just get a hit few times, boom, Unstoppable threshold reached, press down shift and in 2 seconds, you're there. I'd love to see GWF players try and deny this. Not only that, but also the knock-prone powers -- the most potent CC of them all in the game -- are ranged. A huge reach cylindric/AoE, so you don't even need to really get there. Unstoppable comes on, you run faster than level1 horses, can run half the game field with full stamina, and knock, knock, knock and bam. Ranged = dead.
I wouldn't exactly expect gap-closing to be as hellish difficult as in WoW, ie) warriors having to face ice mages there is simply a living nightmare. However, I wouldn't expect it to be as stupidly easy as with this game. In the duration of over 10 seconds with full Unstoppable, and a bit less with half Unstoppable, there is no way for the ranged class to survive a walking truck that toddles over 40k HP, goes into God Mode when tickled a bit, takes less than half damage of what is dealt, and then regenerates more than 20~30% HP lost during that duration. Just because of this, just because of the fact that ultimately no class can really disengage and run from a GWF, that HR/CW classes are forced to invest into as much huge HP buffer at the cost of damage loss, making it even more unlikely to take one down.
The only real option is to invest heavily in defenses, and hope to survive the stupidly easy barbaric assault stemming from the initial Unstoppable activation, hoping to survive until it ends, and then CC and buy range again (which ofcourse, is also ultimately futile, in that Determination-Unstoppable activation is so stupidly easily achieved -- hence, the reason why many people note it should be based on percentage of health lost -- not a set HP loss).
Therefore, ultimately, the assumption;
"while the ranged class should be able to kite for a while eventually the melee has to be able to get into damage-dealing range"
...this is true. And yet, only half the truth.
In order for that assumption to be fully true, one most also add in the clause that goes;
"...and after a certain amount of melee attack/damage is reached, the ranged must also be able to distance oneself and kite again. This cycle should continue, with no great apparent advantage going to any one side, with both sides roughly draining in HP at similar ratio to one another -- and only then, it can be said that the balance between melee-ranged is reached "
And of course, since none of you in this thread are stupid, and everyone knows what the reality is, we already know that there isn't any "balance" in this aspect. Once the GWF catches you, the game is about 75% over.
Hence, the reason why only TRs have any kind of real chance in stalling a GWF -- since they have the one and only defense against GWFs -- being invisible. (Which, even this is at times just plain ol' peachy, since just spamming around those AoE knock-prones blindly is usually enough to cause a lucky hit)
Like it or not, Unstoppable remains the problem. In a game where CC is so penultimate in the game strategy, going into a status that just simply ignores it -- and so often, at that -- is by itself game-breaking. (As well as the bullshi* shift-sprint that ignores any slows/movement hampering effects...)
NW is officially the easiest game I've ever played for a damage-oriented tank-melee to close-gaps to ranged classes. Prior to playing this game I thought SWTOR was super easy... and that game had 15-sec recharge leaps. This game? Get hit, go into Unstoppable, game over.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I really think there's so much confusion about GWFs, cause i find so many flaws in what is pointed as "the problem".
First: CW cc and damage. GWF goes unstoppable. Catches up. Nope. CW still got teleport immunity dodges. 3 dodges are more than enough to let the 4 seconds half-determination unstoppable run out against pre-module 2 GWFs/ swordmasters. Also: CWs can repel. Throwing GWFs far away, creating more room for more damage. The GWF could go unstoppable, but half of it would be wasted in the attempt to close the gap. Against swordmasters, CWs have all they need to create distance and have a fair match. Problem is with Iron Vanguards. Which means, it's not unstoppable the problem.
You take a look at what good CWs could do before module 2, you'll see that GWFs without bravery and roar were not able to catch up most of the time. Reason is: repel and teleports. Catch up means i can try to land my hit. If the enemy still can teleport away 3 times and be invulnerable doing it, with half or more of my speed drained and my unstoppable running out.
Also, some people say unstoppable is the issue, some say it's threat rush, some say it's frontline. Pick one.
The reason TRs can kite more is due to ITC, dodge roll immunity and stealth, not stealth alone. The good ones can tank you with ITC, dodge roll immune away, fade into stealth, dodge roll again to create distance and move in some non-predictable way to avoid you while doing ranged damage from stealth, until iTC is up again and they can repeat the sequence. Timing your prones during the milliseconds between ITC and dodge roll immunity, or time it to take them exactly between the first dodge immunity and the second dodge immunity after they go stealth, is again, near to impossible due to lag.
Damage taken and dealt changes with bouilds. Many CWs i can kill in 1 rotation, Others are thougher even keeping good attack. For example: almost all the CWs go for soulforged. Are you serious? Now, you know you have to reduce spike damage and you know you are ranged, which means a GWFs have to prone you and make a fast rotation as soon as he catches up. And yet, very few CWs use barkshield, which would help them so much more in my opinion to mitigate the damage taken by GWFs prone rotation. Much more than a soulforged. You are ranged vs melee. You take no hits unstil the melee catches up and have to unload spike damage fast. I would go for the enchant that shields me from damage spikes.
GWFs also, are swordmaster too. Right now, the compensation for swordmasters vs IV should be the ranged daily, harder to dodge if compared to indomitable strenght (ranged and fast vs close range and slow), and flourish. But flourish need a damage buff and, may be, a faster animation or more range to make up for threat rush+frontline.
You can't nerf something shared by the Whole class, based on one path, one build. That's why it is threat rush and frontline that were changed in PTR and should be looked at to balance iron vanguard GWFs. Reducing the range of threat rush to half the current one, would already change things already. Frontline got a 25% damage reduction on single target, which means the power now hits a but more than flourish, but with 19 seconds of cooldown.
The other issue could be the amount of damage dealt by the ranged vs the damage dealt by the GWFs once he catches up. But again, it very much depends on builds and enchants.
I'd start making the change to threat rush (make it non-spammable and reduce range) on top of the frontline nerf. And see how it works.
Increase fourish damage and range.
Then work on CWs. Let them keep their cc, adding control bonus to their PvP sets. Enchant your PvP sets with barkshield or other good defensive enchants, in place of soulforged which, if you ask me, is not a good choice for you guys. Tune their PvP sets if you see there's still too much difference in the damage dealt-taken with melees.
About CWs what is needed most imo (for this mode of pvp) is a form of temporary invisibility, or "greater sanctuary". An undamagable and invisible state the cw can go into to gain health or at least remove its self from a deadly no-win situation. Once the cw attacked anything it would come out of this state. It would be a good daily for pvp.
About CWs what is needed most imo (for this mode of pvp) is a form of temporary invisibility, or "greater sanctuary". An undamagable and invisible state the cw can go into to gain health or at least remove its self from a deadly no-win situation. Once the cw attacked anything it would come out of this state. It would be a good daily for pvp.
I don't see how giving a CW invisibility would be at all balanced, personally.
I don't see how giving a CW invisibility would be at all balanced, personally.
Nor do I.
Why give every class something new to deal with a common problem caused by one OP class, when simply rebalancing that one, single, OP class is much faster, easier, and has lower dangers of unbalancing the game even further by introducing something new?
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Why give every class something new to deal with a common problem caused by one OP class, when simply rebalancing that one, single, OP class is much faster, easier, and has lower dangers of unbalancing the game even further by introducing something new?
Who said anything about giving every class something new? TR's are as OP as GWFs are and have always been that way. If I were maining a TR right now I would be keeping my fingers crossed and hoping my class doesn't get the nerf bat next. You don't effectively nerf every class (tenacity, healing depression) because one class is under powered (cw) and another class is "usefulness challenged" (gf). Give CW's a little something extra because after all they are the only class that have any kind of legit complaint about GWF's being OP. GF's? All they need is to have Stalwart un-nerfed, or some equivalent buff and they are right back up there with TRs and GWFs. DCs? Just scrap healing depression.
Depending on who you ask, every class is OP, though the fewest amount of people will say CW. It goes GWF, TR, DC, GF, CW. I'm not qqing about TR's, instead I am making one :P . My statements are for the good of the game, not because my "favorite" class has a hard time in pvp or because I don't want my favorite class to lose its uber status or because I want my favoritie class to regain its OP status. Nah, just balance.
Give CW's some invisibility as well as an encounter that marks any Stealthed TR's for the next 30 seconds, restore Stalwart, scrap tenacity and healing depression, and all is well. That and some more pvp modes please.
I do have a TR that I played for a long while, but he is gathering dust at the moment. I just don't see how balance-wise invisibility can be justified for CW. I don't care about D&D spells available; I care more about not making MORE problems with PvP.
People say this but they don't say why CW's should not have invisibility. Stealth and kill the CW is as cheesy as threatening rush and kill the wizard. Yet the cw has no cheese of his own and is forced to gag down everyone elses cheese and like it. Why is that?
The thing about perma-stealth and TRs is: they are being forced to go that route for PvP or they will get destroyed in most fights against equal/higher geared players. The only exception will be high deflect/defense/hp/regen builds (essentially become a tank, which why not roll a different class at that point?).
Oddly enough, play a ton of TR at lower levels and you'll see what you can do without perma-stealth. Lead kills, die if you try face tanking TANKS, die some more due to cc...but kill way more than you die. And not all stealth kills. Let the tanks tank each other or the dc and tear them apart as they do. Or tear apart the cw as it tries to tear apart the gwf tanking the other gwf. Its all good fun.
If not invisibility how about Tensers Transformation?? It is a classic dnd arcane spell. The CW would turn into a Sent IV GWF for the duration of the spell which would be when unstoppable is triggered less than once in a 30 second period. The GS in the this form would mirror the CW's GS. No? Why not?
Who said anything about giving every class something new? TR's are as OP as GWFs are and have always been that way. If I were maining a TR right now I would be keeping my fingers crossed and hoping my class doesn't get the nerf bat next. You don't effectively nerf every class (tenacity, healing depression) because one class is under powered (cw) and another class is "usefulness challenged" (gf). Give CW's a little something extra because after all they are the only class that have any kind of legit complaint about GWF's being OP. GF's? All they need is to have Stalwart un-nerfed, or some equivalent buff and they are right back up there with TRs and GWFs. DCs? Just scrap healing depression.
I'm sorry, who are we trying to fool here, again? Are GWF players actually trying to fool themselves?
Is that what GWF players tell themselves to go to sleep at night??
Who do you think is the culprit behind the upcoming changes?
1. Tenacity as extra damage mitigation
2. Tenacity as CC resistance
3. Reduction of knock-prone duration by 0.6 seconds
4. Regen nerf
5. Temp-HP nerf
6. Heal nerf
All of these are indirect balancing options with specifically the GWF in mind. Many classes may have taken advantage of one or two of those 6 categories above, but only the GWF is in direct relation of ALL six.
The need to increase damage mitigation against GWF attacks, the need to deal wiith their bullshi* ranged/AoE knock-prones being chained back to back, the problem of them being chickenshi* unkillable with so frequent activation of Unstoppable that they decide to nerf ALL three major aspects in direct relation with Unstoppable...
Everything, stems from module2 GWFs, and I mean everything.
Depending on who you ask, every class is OP, though the fewest amount of people will say CW. It goes GWF, TR, DC, GF, CW. I'm not qqing about TR's, instead I am making one :P . My statements are for the good of the game, not because my "favorite" class has a hard time in pvp or because I don't want my favorite class to lose its uber status or because I want my favoritie class to regain its OP status. Nah, just balance.
Give CW's some invisibility as well as an encounter that marks any Stealthed TR's for the next 30 seconds, restore Stalwart, scrap tenacity and healing depression, and all is well. That and some more pvp modes please.
Don't kid yourself.
The developers may have chosen the worst possible fix, but at least their intentions were clearly pointing towards the right direction.
Sure, they didn't need to give any of this heal-depression or tenacity to anyone. Simply, all they needed to do was put an end to the horseshi* back-to-back Unstoppable activation, crockshi* sprinting faster than a horse to close gap in 2 seconds to any target while ignoring all movement imparing effects, and that bullshi* knock-prone spamming. All they needed to do was simply tone down the GWF as the unstoppable freak of nature and that would have made everyone happy.
Instead, they chose to not offend GWF players by leaving all three pieces of shi* mentioned above intact, tried something else with these indirect attempts to tone down GWFs that effected everyone globally, and then ended up offending everyone... and still failed in balancing the GWF. How can they succeed? There is no 'balancing' the GWF without going at the heart of what makes them OP -- Unstoppable.
If anything GWF players shouldn't be complaining about heal depression or tenacity, because, while it is not their fault they chose this class to play, it is still due to this <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>-shi* easymode OP-class that tempted to rain down all the rest of us with this heap of changes in the form of tenacity and heal-depression.
Simply put, the whole thing is the GWF's fault.
(ps) ...and don't think I don't have any choice-words about how the perma/high-INT TRs are. My contention is once the GWF gets the nerf bat, the permas should all be wiped from the face of the Earth by making it impossible. The perma/semi-perma, fast-ITC rotations, IS and DF spamming TRs are wussies relying on massive crutches.
But we're not talking about the TRs right now, are we?
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Why not? They are wizard spells. I'd add contingencies and many others as well Somewhere to the point where the enemy team would say "focus GWF focus GWF! That CW is way harder to kill, we deal with him last!" :P
So you mean the ranged DPS class should be harder to kill than the semi-tank melee class that has no immunity moves and takes on all the damage directly?
Mirror images/ clones are a good idea, and could be a way for CWs to have the defensive options they need to face TRs/ GWFs. But, on the other hand, you've to be careful to do not give too much defensive options and think about how they work together. An example is the TR combo of ITC+ immunity dodges+ stealth, which, if used correctly by a skilled player, allows them to be as hard to kill as a tank. I wouldn't want that amount of survivability on a cc ranged class.
Focus for CWs should be on their specialization: control. CWs should survive through ranged CC, pushbacks and teleports. I'd focus on power up these things. Like increasing range of teleports and make threat rush range half the amount it has now. Put cc bonus on PvP gear for CWs to allow them to be THE CLASS that can cc even with tenacity. Put this together, you would have:
them keeping cc while other classes get cc reduction
them being able to immune teleport at a distance where the GWF still has to chase them before being able to threat rush
them being less affected by prones
also, they should use barkshield more for PvP, instead of soulforge.
Mirror images to defend themselves from stealthed TRs, even considering tenacity will reduce the spike damage they take by stealthed TRs.
These changes could work fine and would be enough.
Reducing TR range and fixing it to make it non-spammable, along with the already under-test frontline damage nerf (consider also that with cc reduction, a ranged prone is less useful if the enemy can get up fast and dodge/ teleport immune away right after, avoiding the chain prone combo), would be a good way to decrease GWFs ability to prone-glue to the enemy's ***.
I'd also, as said, move ArP to strenght and DoT resistance to CON. This way:
a GWF focusing on CON and DEX, would max defense but lose attack power
a GWF focusing on CON and STR, would have high HP and deal damage over time, but would have much lower deflection and critical chance
a GWF focusing on STR and DEX, would have high attack and deflection- crit, but much lower HP
I don't think any over-complicated solution is needed, just the above stuff and things would be MUCH better, imho.
If not invisibility how about Tensers Transformation?? It is a classic dnd arcane spell. The CW would turn into a Sent IV GWF for the duration of the spell which would be when unstoppable is triggered less than once in a 30 second period. The GS in the this form would mirror the CW's GS. No? Why not?
First of all, which build would this "sentinel" have? There are several. Sentinel hybrid? Sentinel tank? What about attributes STR-CON-DEX?
Which gear to reach the CW gear score? Sentinel PvP new gear? Or destroyer? Instigator? 2+2, 4/4?
Overcomplicated.
Also: don't know if you play GWFs, but it's not like people see you and says "ok, do not attack him". You get focused. A lot. By ranged classes. And cced a lot. It's more like "oh noes, a GWF. All focus on him or we won't be able to take him down". Not a good way to get out of trouble, if you ask me.
If a defensive spell must be added to CWs, i'd add some kind of illusion or multiple copy to try and fool/ confuse the enemy. At the cost of 1 attack spell, of course.
And the stuff i explained above like increased teleport range exc...
So you mean the ranged DPS class should be harder to kill than the semi-tank melee class that has no immunity moves and takes on all the damage directly?
Nah, they should be easier to kill - if you get to them. Nowadays you ALWAYS get to the CW, they have no escape.
Nah, they should be easier to kill - if you get to them. Nowadays you ALWAYS get to the CW, they have no escape.
That's why i think CW defense must be buffed by increasing their ability to create distance. Increasing teleport distance, making them keep their cc against tenacity with a cc bonus on PvP sets, exc... Right now, as you say, they don't have enough tools compared to GWFs to create distance.
Sorry can you make it shorter, I find it hard to read that.
What is strenght?
Attribute. Strenght (primary), Constitution and Dexterity. For GWFs.
Each point in strenght gives 1% damage increase, DoT resistance exc...
Each point in Constitution gives the GWF 1% DR reduction (aka, 1% armor penetration) and +2% HP.
Each point in Dexterity is 1% critical chance, 0,5% chance to deflect.
So, actually, CON and DEX give: HP,ArP, deflection, critical chance. That's why STR is useless for PvP on a GWF, RIGHT NOW. You go con-dex, you get both the best defensive stats (HP and deflection) and offensive stats (ArP diminishing returns start at very high scores, and crit is the best for spike damage needed in PvP).
Move ArP to STR. What do you get? Simple: a CON-DEX sentinel loses around 16% ArP, more if they use constitution focus (26 CON means 16% ArP bonus. More (18%) with Constitution focus). Which means, 16-18%+ less damage in PvP. With tenacity, crit damage is reduced. If they want more damage, they must rely on STR to increase their ArP, which forces them to
take away points from CON (less HP) or DEX (less deflection and critical chance) to put them into STR for more attack
put darks in their enchant slots in place of radiants (less HP)
Or go CON-DEX, losing the 18% damage bonus from ArP they have now.
Would also make DPS builds more viable for PvP, since that would be the way to deal damage (at the cost of survivability).
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degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2014
Actually, Pando, that would simply mean GWFs now go STR/CON, and rearrange their gear to bump up their crit and deflection. With so much GS combinations possible, it wouldn't be difficult.
Nah, they should be easier to kill - if you get to them. Nowadays you ALWAYS get to the CW, they have no escape.
This!!!! I'm not asking to make me able to facetank! I've been saying this for ages now- BUFF THE SHIELD by adding more absorb to it and make it either swallow 1 CC effect per every refresh of absorb or make it decrease knockdown/prone landing chance by like 40%!!!>>> 1 dps skill less will balance out the whole buff by making us less burstylicious.
Go on Thieve's Den forums and you will see that perma-skill and semi-skill rogs think its ok to solo bosses and everybody else should be nerfed ofc. Then you have fanboys "i haz nambaz" who roll hard hitting execs to 3 shot people with skillfull execution. Like that corpsesomething character, who feels "entitled" to having highest burst (because of the class he rolled and obviously TRICKSTER rogue is actually a misspelled name and it is in fact ASSASSIN and the devs named it wrong) and also brags about how he facetanks fighter classes and wants to do it more effectively(dem skillz). If anybody is talking balance all TRs in Exec paragon and/or perma-skillz build should shut up.
Actually, Pando, that would simply mean GWFs now go STR/CON, and rearrange their gear to bump up their crit and deflection. With so much GS combinations possible, it wouldn't be difficult.
But again, doesn't this mean that they have to give up radiants and HP gear?
Right now, sentinels go full CON and DEX. Then they focus gear and enchants on HP, deflection and regeneration, plus sometimes some ArP.
With points going to STR and CON, to add crit and deflection they must either change some HP gear and enchants to crit/ deflection enchants.
I'll test PvP gear combos to see if it's possible to get crit and deflection while keeping HP gear/ enchants too.
I'm sorry, who are we trying to fool here, again? Are GWF players actually trying to fool themselves?
Is that what GWF players tell themselves to go to sleep at night??
Who do you think is the culprit behind the upcoming changes?
1. Tenacity as extra damage mitigation
2. Tenacity as CC resistance
3. Reduction of knock-prone duration by 0.6 seconds
4. Regen nerf
5. Temp-HP nerf
6. Heal nerf
All of these are indirect balancing options with specifically the GWF in mind. Many classes may have taken advantage of one or two of those 6 categories above, but only the GWF is in direct relation of ALL six.
The need to increase damage mitigation against GWF attacks, the need to deal wiith their bullshi* ranged/AoE knock-prones being chained back to back, the problem of them being chickenshi* unkillable with so frequent activation of Unstoppable that they decide to nerf ALL three major aspects in direct relation with Unstoppable...
Everything, stems from module2 GWFs, and I mean everything.
Don't kid yourself.
The developers may have chosen the worst possible fix, but at least their intentions were clearly pointing towards the right direction.
Sure, they didn't need to give any of this heal-depression or tenacity to anyone. Simply, all they needed to do was put an end to the horseshi* back-to-back Unstoppable activation, crockshi* sprinting faster than a horse to close gap in 2 seconds to any target while ignoring all movement imparing effects, and that bullshi* knock-prone spamming. All they needed to do was simply tone down the GWF as the unstoppable freak of nature and that would have made everyone happy.
Instead, they chose to not offend GWF players by leaving all three pieces of shi* mentioned above intact, tried something else with these indirect attempts to tone down GWFs that effected everyone globally, and then ended up offending everyone... and still failed in balancing the GWF. How can they succeed? There is no 'balancing' the GWF without going at the heart of what makes them OP -- Unstoppable.
If anything GWF players shouldn't be complaining about heal depression or tenacity, because, while it is not their fault they chose this class to play, it is still due to this <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>-shi* easymode OP-class that tempted to rain down all the rest of us with this heap of changes in the form of tenacity and heal-depression.
Simply put, the whole thing is the GWF's fault.
(ps) ...and don't think I don't have any choice-words about how the perma/high-INT TRs are. My contention is once the GWF gets the nerf bat, the permas should all be wiped from the face of the Earth by making it impossible. The perma/semi-perma, fast-ITC rotations, IS and DF spamming TRs are wussies relying on massive crutches.
But we're not talking about the TRs right now, are we?
No, we are talking about the game its self, specifically pvp. I play all of the classes. I am not a GWF, I have a toon that is a GWF. Nothing is the GWF's fault. It is one component of an overall system. GWF players did not conspire and create the class to make the game suck for everyone else lol. My point is being ignored altogether: we do not need to nerf gwfs, we simply need to buff up one or two other classes. I am against nerfs and support instead increasing the power of other classes. I was against the GF stalwart nerf, which when implemented flushed some of the most dedicated and long-term NWO players down the toilet to other pass times. I am against this nerf. I would be against nerfing TR stealth at all.
I am just against nerfs period. Especially in pvp. Give the weak class a buff, change up the mode and add a practical matchmaking and ranking system. There its fixed.
First of all, which build would this "sentinel" have? There are several. Sentinel hybrid? Sentinel tank? What about attributes STR-CON-DEX?
Which gear to reach the CW gear score? Sentinel PvP new gear? Or destroyer? Instigator? 2+2, 4/4?
Overcomplicated.
Also: don't know if you play GWFs, but it's not like people see you and says "ok, do not attack him". You get focused. A lot. By ranged classes. And cced a lot. It's more like "oh noes, a GWF. All focus on him or we won't be able to take him down". Not a good way to get out of trouble, if you ask me.
If a defensive spell must be added to CWs, i'd add some kind of illusion or multiple copy to try and fool/ confuse the enemy. At the cost of 1 attack spell, of course.
And the stuff i explained above like increased teleport range exc...
IV Sent is so cookie cutter easily optimized that this question shouldn't even need answered. It isn't overcomplicated at all. Just the optimal IV Sent build. As far as gear, same tier as cws but pvp, focused on the optimal build.
The problem is with the GWF is the IV Sent. Lets get that straight. There are some creative people who make IV Destroyers work, but in pvp the OP build is the IV Sent. An IV Destroyer can do comparative damage but it is so much less of a tank.
So we really arent talking about an entire class so much as a single build of that class. It is currently the optimal build in all of NWO with the exception of CW builds in pve.
The problem is not how "OP" IV Sent is, the problem is just how narrow our choices are in terms of optimized builds in NWO.
Any really good game facilitates multiple, equally difficult, paths to success. That makes the game challenging and not boring. You find different ways to win. Success for the player in an MMO is having a kick-*** end game toon that wins much more than it loses. There being maybe only TWO such paths in NWO is ultimately a game-killer.
That is why I push buffing classes rather than nerfing other classes.
EDIT: almost forgot. Yes the GWF gets focused. A lot. It means sometimes you kill 3 of 5 of the other team before going down on a node or sometimes you just die. But it forces the enemy team to shift its resources away from your team and what they are doing and on to you. Freeing your team up to wreak havoc. That is the real "opness" of gwf in domination pvp. It is also why it aggravates me when I can kite 3-5 of the enemy team all the way back to their home node for a good 30 second fight and yet my own team still manages to not secure a single node in that time. Then I get yelled at for not sticking with the rest of the party like everyone else is just a support cast for the gwf. Screw that! lol
This!!!! I'm not asking to make me able to facetank! I've been saying this for ages now- BUFF THE SHIELD by adding more absorb to it and make it either swallow 1 CC effect per every refresh of absorb or make it decrease knockdown/prone landing chance by like 40%!!!>>> 1 dps skill less will balance out the whole buff by making us less burstylicious.
Go on Thieve's Den forums and you will see that perma-skill and semi-skill rogs think its ok to solo bosses and everybody else should be nerfed ofc. Then you have fanboys "i haz nambaz" who roll hard hitting execs to 3 shot people with skillfull execution. Like that corpsesomething character, who feels "entitled" to having highest burst (because of the class he rolled and obviously TRICKSTER rogue is actually a misspelled name and it is in fact ASSASSIN and the devs named it wrong) and also brags about how he facetanks fighter classes and wants to do it more effectively(dem skillz). If anybody is talking balance all TRs in Exec paragon and/or perma-skillz build should shut up.
Indeed. Premonition, Stoneskin, Etherealness....there are SO MANY possible arcane defenses for CW that are simply not even on the slate in NWO and imo that is a major failing. It could be a whole different Paragon path focused on defense. I played another game for years that had a Wizard daily called "Epic Transmutation Barrier". It made a temporary ring of impassable stone around the Wizard so the character could have a nice safe distance when needed. The only things that could get through that wall was ranged dps. It wasn't "easymode" because if cast at the wrong time the wizard would be locked in there with a nasty pve enemy or pvp tank, but in NWO, paired with repel I think it would be nice. So many simple solutions.....
Optimal build is a bit vague. As said, it depends on playstyle. Steamroller optimal build is the 100% defensive tank. Gannicus was more damage oriented. And so on. Optimal means, the most used? Let's say the most used. But how do you know if the one playing the CW has a playstyle that fits the GWF feats, even if just for a brief period? Switching from a ranged class to a melee tank?
I'd rather go for something that fits the class features.
CWs are ranged, DPS with, supposedly, the best CC among all classes. Their defense is the CC and the ability to create a gap between them and the opponent. Not transforming into a tank to save their butt.
CWs need to get back their ability to create distance and get away, imho. Not to get a way to tank.
I agreewith mirror images cause it seems a good tool to counter TRs stealthkilling CWs before they can even react.
Once you get caught, also, your build and gear determines if you can take 1 rotation and then fight again. I'd say it again: soulforged is a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> choice for a CW in PvP. Barkshield is way better to both avoid being 1-shotted by TRs from stealth, and mitigate the spike damage of melees when they reach you. Also, negation could be a way to survive the first wave of damage. Imho, much better choice than soulforged. I don't get why so many players other than regeneration tanks go for soulforged in PvP...
However, i'm not a CW. If CWs want a buff to tank damage/ absorb damage directly, it's their choice.
Once you get caught, also, your build and gear determines if you can take 1 rotation and then fight again. I'd say it again: soulforged is a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> choice for a CW in PvP. Barkshield is way better to both avoid being 1-shotted by TRs from stealth, and mitigate the spike damage of melees when they reach you. Also, negation could be a way to survive the first wave of damage. Imho, much better choice than soulforged. I don't get why so many players other than regeneration tanks go for soulforged in PvP...
Because currently soulforged + artifact is a get out of jail card while barkshield most of the time does nothing. It takes 8 seconds for a charge to reload, in PvP 8 secs is an eternity. The charges get consumed by anything so 3 crappy at will - no charges left.
It would work IF the CW is not being hit, IF it had time to recharge it and IF it absorbs the big damage an not some at wills (don;t remeber if dots discharge it as well)
Soulforged always works. Certainly, after the changes maybe it will become more desired, in absence of anything else.
Because currently soulforged + artifact is a get out of jail card while barkshield most of the time does nothing. It takes 8 seconds for a charge to reload, in PvP 8 secs is an eternity. The charges get consumed by anything so 3 crappy at will - no charges left.
It would work IF the CW is not being hit, IF it had time to recharge it and IF it absorbs the big damage an not some at wills (don;t remeber if dots discharge it as well)
Soulforged always works. Certainly, after the changes maybe it will become more desired, in absence of anything else.
Yeah we now have a boon that does dot damage. One hit from anything will let this boon fully remove barkshield, while it absorbs like 750 total damage. lol
That's why i think it could work fine for CWs against melees. Obviously, it's situational. But it goes for every enchant.
IF you're getting spammed with at-wills, your barkshield is nullified. But if you get focused by melees, you can get back to life, but you'll get killed right after. I see it happening to many CWs. They die, usually while cced/ proned. Get back to life, get proned again and killed. Sometimes they can shoot the artifact and try to get away, but, again, usually, they die right after.
Probably in premades it's different.
Barkshield too is very situational. In PvP rarely enemies can take a good look at you and waste some time to burn your charges. They just try to burst you down. Every 8 seconds, with a perfect, you absorb 800 or so damage. A CW will rarely get hit for less than 800, even by at-wills. Which means, in a 1 minute fight (soulforge recharges in 60 seconds) you get 7 charges. 5600 HP total, or more.
Soulforge will also get less useful with healing depression in PvP.
So many boons, gear and enchants will get a brutal nerf in PvP.
Optimal build is a bit vague. As said, it depends on playstyle. Steamroller optimal build is the 100% defensive tank. Gannicus was more damage oriented. And so on. Optimal means, the most used? Let's say the most used. But how do you know if the one playing the CW has a playstyle that fits the GWF feats, even if just for a brief period? Switching from a ranged class to a melee tank?
Optimal is a pretty narrow, specific build. In this case it is pvp optimal which is a pretty straightforward IV Sent. Playstyle isn't really an issue since Tensers is just supposed to make you Hulk for a few "rounds" so you can face tank and damage anything without dying immediately.
I'd rather go for something that fits the class features.
CWs are ranged, DPS with, supposedly, the best CC among all classes. Their defense is the CC and the ability to create a gap between them and the opponent. Not transforming into a tank to save their butt.
CWs need to get back their ability to create distance and get away, imho. Not to get a way to tank.
I agreewith mirror images cause it seems a good tool to counter TRs stealthkilling CWs before they can even react.
Well I don't disagree, the Tensers idea is just one example of how even the early pnp dnd devs managed to easily fix what is obviously a universal issue with arcane casters: squishiness.
Once you get caught, also, your build and gear determines if you can take 1 rotation and then fight again. I'd say it again: soulforged is a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> choice for a CW in PvP. Barkshield is way better to both avoid being 1-shotted by TRs from stealth, and mitigate the spike damage of melees when they reach you. Also, negation could be a way to survive the first wave of damage. Imho, much better choice than soulforged. I don't get why so many players other than regeneration tanks go for soulforged in PvP...
Well the thing is, BIS and perfect vorpal ANYTHING vs nearly ANYTHING else and that is a single rotation death.
However, i'm not a CW. If CWs want a buff to tank damage/ absorb damage directly, it's their choice.
I know I'd like it or SOMETHING for my cw. Much more so than a universal nerf that happens to affect one or two classes more than any of the others.
Comments
Sith Juggernaut SWTOR, heavy damage, heavy tank. SWTOR is a top 10 mmo that makes NWO look like a tiny bug in terms of player population. Lost credibility? Nope.
Chill stacks, entangle, stealing time, icy terrain, repel, and on and on and on. The coming changes to cw cc is criminal. If unstoppable and itc makes cw less cc than they need adjusted.
Not heavy damage because cw playing to its strength (at range) most of the match means cw playing off-node most of the match. In a close in combat pvp mode (node control) of course its uber damage ranged spells are not going to match the heavy damage close in casts of a superior close in class.
Low cc relative to all the other classes. Takedown and front line surge. Thats it! In a CLOSE IN combat game, these CLOSE IN cc moves are of course going to be slotted in a rotation together and the gwf seems godlike. It is not. It is simply the optimum class in this given pvp mode.
Zero ranged damage. And no there is no cc invulnerability, there is cc mitigation. Invulnerability would be 100% of the time which means you don't use your cc on a gwf while it is in unstoppable. Which oddly enough can't happen when your gwf is prone. Wait till the gwf comes out of unstoppable and then cc it. You know this.
You are reacting in an understandably emotional and unreasonable way because your class has been forced to play in a pvp mode in which it is ultimately suboptimal.
BTW I love my cw but will not touch pvp with it. That is like playing a game in which you are set up to fail from the start. No thanks. So I run my gwf in pvp. It is actually a lot of fun. Even if that means a guild premade where we are all running around nekkid and drunk with unicorn heads playing "who can die the most" and laughing our butts off the whole time. *cough*. Now gwf is going to be nerfed heavily so I am leveling a tr. Which will take the gwfs place as the target for massive groans and qq from people who play classes that are suboptimal in the given pvp mode.
Again the fix is simple: make more modes.
Jugger Conq GF
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So CW could have a way to increase control duration in PvP only and DC could have a more interesting role.
The melee Vs range pvp isn't a problem if ranged have tool to create distance and player skill make the melee use it's distance reduction tool used in nothing. The main problem I see here is the "recovery" animation after a teleport (dodge, ...). The distance gained is lost because opponent can run behind you as you recover and be nearly here in time.
I think most of people here I haven't see that Dev won't let think like this.
This is the reason why balance is very important. The ability of a ranged class to kite must not be linked to only "how good he is, how skilled he is". It must also be linked to how skilled the melee players is. Which means, if you are a skilled CW and i am a equally skilled GWF, you can kite me a bit AFTER dealing me damage from a safe distance, but i'll catch up. From what i often read, it seems like many CWs want a "if i'm skilled, i can kite you forever" system. There was a TR in another thread, whining about Threat Rush and frontline, and he said "before module 2 i was able to kite GWFs forever, now i can't". I think a balance requires something in the middle.
Now, threat rush must be fixed to be non-spammable, and that's a given.
It's also a given that CWs, as they are now, are at a disadvantage against a GWF.
But it's also true, for example, that before module 2, the only way a GWF got to catch up on a TR or on a CW was roar, which is a near-to-no-damage, 1 second stun power. Cause sprint, unstoppable and bravery were not Always enough to counter the ranged cc combined with repel and teleports against a strong CW. Same thing goes for TRs able to make smooth and fast transitions from ITC to dodge immunity to stealth. Roar and then takedown were the only way to catch them eventually.
TR and Frontline changed that, but a bit too much, to the point of making GWFs unkitable.
The point is to balance PvP so that a CW or TR or HR can evade-kite for some time, more than they can now based on skills, but the GWF have a way to catch up eventually and have his chance to hit. How fast, is determined by his skills.
A way to make it is, to me, to make TR not spammable (frontline is ok. Damage got nerfed on single targets and cooldown is 19 seconds. I think it's enough "cons", for the "pro" of getting a ranged prone power) and reduce it's range. At the same time, let CWs keep their cc ability putting a specific cc-increase stat on CWs PvP gear.
I would try this.
Exactly this. Given equally skilled ranged and melee combatants while the ranged class should be able to kite for a while eventually the melee has to be able to get into damage-dealing range.
Except catching up should be a constant effort, a mind-game of sort, something that requires as much experience to be made possible -- lest the melee class is befuddled by inhibiting powers and killed off from the distance.
Unfortunately, catching up is super easy. Just get a hit few times, boom, Unstoppable threshold reached, press down shift and in 2 seconds, you're there. I'd love to see GWF players try and deny this. Not only that, but also the knock-prone powers -- the most potent CC of them all in the game -- are ranged. A huge reach cylindric/AoE, so you don't even need to really get there. Unstoppable comes on, you run faster than level1 horses, can run half the game field with full stamina, and knock, knock, knock and bam. Ranged = dead.
I wouldn't exactly expect gap-closing to be as hellish difficult as in WoW, ie) warriors having to face ice mages there is simply a living nightmare. However, I wouldn't expect it to be as stupidly easy as with this game. In the duration of over 10 seconds with full Unstoppable, and a bit less with half Unstoppable, there is no way for the ranged class to survive a walking truck that toddles over 40k HP, goes into God Mode when tickled a bit, takes less than half damage of what is dealt, and then regenerates more than 20~30% HP lost during that duration. Just because of this, just because of the fact that ultimately no class can really disengage and run from a GWF, that HR/CW classes are forced to invest into as much huge HP buffer at the cost of damage loss, making it even more unlikely to take one down.
The only real option is to invest heavily in defenses, and hope to survive the stupidly easy barbaric assault stemming from the initial Unstoppable activation, hoping to survive until it ends, and then CC and buy range again (which ofcourse, is also ultimately futile, in that Determination-Unstoppable activation is so stupidly easily achieved -- hence, the reason why many people note it should be based on percentage of health lost -- not a set HP loss).
Therefore, ultimately, the assumption;
...this is true. And yet, only half the truth.
In order for that assumption to be fully true, one most also add in the clause that goes;
And of course, since none of you in this thread are stupid, and everyone knows what the reality is, we already know that there isn't any "balance" in this aspect. Once the GWF catches you, the game is about 75% over.
Hence, the reason why only TRs have any kind of real chance in stalling a GWF -- since they have the one and only defense against GWFs -- being invisible. (Which, even this is at times just plain ol' peachy, since just spamming around those AoE knock-prones blindly is usually enough to cause a lucky hit)
Like it or not, Unstoppable remains the problem. In a game where CC is so penultimate in the game strategy, going into a status that just simply ignores it -- and so often, at that -- is by itself game-breaking. (As well as the bullshi* shift-sprint that ignores any slows/movement hampering effects...)
NW is officially the easiest game I've ever played for a damage-oriented tank-melee to close-gaps to ranged classes. Prior to playing this game I thought SWTOR was super easy... and that game had 15-sec recharge leaps. This game? Get hit, go into Unstoppable, game over.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
First: CW cc and damage. GWF goes unstoppable. Catches up. Nope. CW still got teleport immunity dodges. 3 dodges are more than enough to let the 4 seconds half-determination unstoppable run out against pre-module 2 GWFs/ swordmasters. Also: CWs can repel. Throwing GWFs far away, creating more room for more damage. The GWF could go unstoppable, but half of it would be wasted in the attempt to close the gap. Against swordmasters, CWs have all they need to create distance and have a fair match. Problem is with Iron Vanguards. Which means, it's not unstoppable the problem.
You take a look at what good CWs could do before module 2, you'll see that GWFs without bravery and roar were not able to catch up most of the time. Reason is: repel and teleports. Catch up means i can try to land my hit. If the enemy still can teleport away 3 times and be invulnerable doing it, with half or more of my speed drained and my unstoppable running out.
Also, some people say unstoppable is the issue, some say it's threat rush, some say it's frontline. Pick one.
The reason TRs can kite more is due to ITC, dodge roll immunity and stealth, not stealth alone. The good ones can tank you with ITC, dodge roll immune away, fade into stealth, dodge roll again to create distance and move in some non-predictable way to avoid you while doing ranged damage from stealth, until iTC is up again and they can repeat the sequence. Timing your prones during the milliseconds between ITC and dodge roll immunity, or time it to take them exactly between the first dodge immunity and the second dodge immunity after they go stealth, is again, near to impossible due to lag.
Damage taken and dealt changes with bouilds. Many CWs i can kill in 1 rotation, Others are thougher even keeping good attack. For example: almost all the CWs go for soulforged. Are you serious? Now, you know you have to reduce spike damage and you know you are ranged, which means a GWFs have to prone you and make a fast rotation as soon as he catches up. And yet, very few CWs use barkshield, which would help them so much more in my opinion to mitigate the damage taken by GWFs prone rotation. Much more than a soulforged. You are ranged vs melee. You take no hits unstil the melee catches up and have to unload spike damage fast. I would go for the enchant that shields me from damage spikes.
GWFs also, are swordmaster too. Right now, the compensation for swordmasters vs IV should be the ranged daily, harder to dodge if compared to indomitable strenght (ranged and fast vs close range and slow), and flourish. But flourish need a damage buff and, may be, a faster animation or more range to make up for threat rush+frontline.
You can't nerf something shared by the Whole class, based on one path, one build. That's why it is threat rush and frontline that were changed in PTR and should be looked at to balance iron vanguard GWFs. Reducing the range of threat rush to half the current one, would already change things already. Frontline got a 25% damage reduction on single target, which means the power now hits a but more than flourish, but with 19 seconds of cooldown.
The other issue could be the amount of damage dealt by the ranged vs the damage dealt by the GWFs once he catches up. But again, it very much depends on builds and enchants.
I'd start making the change to threat rush (make it non-spammable and reduce range) on top of the frontline nerf. And see how it works.
Increase fourish damage and range.
Then work on CWs. Let them keep their cc, adding control bonus to their PvP sets. Enchant your PvP sets with barkshield or other good defensive enchants, in place of soulforged which, if you ask me, is not a good choice for you guys. Tune their PvP sets if you see there's still too much difference in the damage dealt-taken with melees.
About CWs what is needed most imo (for this mode of pvp) is a form of temporary invisibility, or "greater sanctuary". An undamagable and invisible state the cw can go into to gain health or at least remove its self from a deadly no-win situation. Once the cw attacked anything it would come out of this state. It would be a good daily for pvp.
Jugger Conq GF
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I don't see how giving a CW invisibility would be at all balanced, personally.
Nor do I.
Why give every class something new to deal with a common problem caused by one OP class, when simply rebalancing that one, single, OP class is much faster, easier, and has lower dangers of unbalancing the game even further by introducing something new?
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Who said anything about giving every class something new? TR's are as OP as GWFs are and have always been that way. If I were maining a TR right now I would be keeping my fingers crossed and hoping my class doesn't get the nerf bat next. You don't effectively nerf every class (tenacity, healing depression) because one class is under powered (cw) and another class is "usefulness challenged" (gf). Give CW's a little something extra because after all they are the only class that have any kind of legit complaint about GWF's being OP. GF's? All they need is to have Stalwart un-nerfed, or some equivalent buff and they are right back up there with TRs and GWFs. DCs? Just scrap healing depression.
Depending on who you ask, every class is OP, though the fewest amount of people will say CW. It goes GWF, TR, DC, GF, CW. I'm not qqing about TR's, instead I am making one :P . My statements are for the good of the game, not because my "favorite" class has a hard time in pvp or because I don't want my favorite class to lose its uber status or because I want my favoritie class to regain its OP status. Nah, just balance.
Give CW's some invisibility as well as an encounter that marks any Stealthed TR's for the next 30 seconds, restore Stalwart, scrap tenacity and healing depression, and all is well. That and some more pvp modes please.
Jugger Conq GF
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People say this but they don't say why CW's should not have invisibility. Stealth and kill the CW is as cheesy as threatening rush and kill the wizard. Yet the cw has no cheese of his own and is forced to gag down everyone elses cheese and like it. Why is that?
Oddly enough, play a ton of TR at lower levels and you'll see what you can do without perma-stealth. Lead kills, die if you try face tanking TANKS, die some more due to cc...but kill way more than you die. And not all stealth kills. Let the tanks tank each other or the dc and tear them apart as they do. Or tear apart the cw as it tries to tear apart the gwf tanking the other gwf. Its all good fun.
Jugger Conq GF
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Jugger Conq GF
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I'm sorry, who are we trying to fool here, again? Are GWF players actually trying to fool themselves?
Is that what GWF players tell themselves to go to sleep at night??
Who do you think is the culprit behind the upcoming changes?
1. Tenacity as extra damage mitigation
2. Tenacity as CC resistance
3. Reduction of knock-prone duration by 0.6 seconds
4. Regen nerf
5. Temp-HP nerf
6. Heal nerf
All of these are indirect balancing options with specifically the GWF in mind. Many classes may have taken advantage of one or two of those 6 categories above, but only the GWF is in direct relation of ALL six.
The need to increase damage mitigation against GWF attacks, the need to deal wiith their bullshi* ranged/AoE knock-prones being chained back to back, the problem of them being chickenshi* unkillable with so frequent activation of Unstoppable that they decide to nerf ALL three major aspects in direct relation with Unstoppable...
Everything, stems from module2 GWFs, and I mean everything.
Don't kid yourself.
The developers may have chosen the worst possible fix, but at least their intentions were clearly pointing towards the right direction.
Sure, they didn't need to give any of this heal-depression or tenacity to anyone. Simply, all they needed to do was put an end to the horseshi* back-to-back Unstoppable activation, crockshi* sprinting faster than a horse to close gap in 2 seconds to any target while ignoring all movement imparing effects, and that bullshi* knock-prone spamming. All they needed to do was simply tone down the GWF as the unstoppable freak of nature and that would have made everyone happy.
Instead, they chose to not offend GWF players by leaving all three pieces of shi* mentioned above intact, tried something else with these indirect attempts to tone down GWFs that effected everyone globally, and then ended up offending everyone... and still failed in balancing the GWF. How can they succeed? There is no 'balancing' the GWF without going at the heart of what makes them OP -- Unstoppable.
If anything GWF players shouldn't be complaining about heal depression or tenacity, because, while it is not their fault they chose this class to play, it is still due to this <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>-shi* easymode OP-class that tempted to rain down all the rest of us with this heap of changes in the form of tenacity and heal-depression.
Simply put, the whole thing is the GWF's fault.
(ps) ...and don't think I don't have any choice-words about how the perma/high-INT TRs are. My contention is once the GWF gets the nerf bat, the permas should all be wiped from the face of the Earth by making it impossible. The perma/semi-perma, fast-ITC rotations, IS and DF spamming TRs are wussies relying on massive crutches.
But we're not talking about the TRs right now, are we?
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
So you mean the ranged DPS class should be harder to kill than the semi-tank melee class that has no immunity moves and takes on all the damage directly?
Mirror images/ clones are a good idea, and could be a way for CWs to have the defensive options they need to face TRs/ GWFs. But, on the other hand, you've to be careful to do not give too much defensive options and think about how they work together. An example is the TR combo of ITC+ immunity dodges+ stealth, which, if used correctly by a skilled player, allows them to be as hard to kill as a tank. I wouldn't want that amount of survivability on a cc ranged class.
Focus for CWs should be on their specialization: control. CWs should survive through ranged CC, pushbacks and teleports. I'd focus on power up these things. Like increasing range of teleports and make threat rush range half the amount it has now. Put cc bonus on PvP gear for CWs to allow them to be THE CLASS that can cc even with tenacity. Put this together, you would have:
them keeping cc while other classes get cc reduction
them being able to immune teleport at a distance where the GWF still has to chase them before being able to threat rush
them being less affected by prones
also, they should use barkshield more for PvP, instead of soulforge.
Mirror images to defend themselves from stealthed TRs, even considering tenacity will reduce the spike damage they take by stealthed TRs.
These changes could work fine and would be enough.
Reducing TR range and fixing it to make it non-spammable, along with the already under-test frontline damage nerf (consider also that with cc reduction, a ranged prone is less useful if the enemy can get up fast and dodge/ teleport immune away right after, avoiding the chain prone combo), would be a good way to decrease GWFs ability to prone-glue to the enemy's ***.
I'd also, as said, move ArP to strenght and DoT resistance to CON. This way:
a GWF focusing on CON and DEX, would max defense but lose attack power
a GWF focusing on CON and STR, would have high HP and deal damage over time, but would have much lower deflection and critical chance
a GWF focusing on STR and DEX, would have high attack and deflection- crit, but much lower HP
I don't think any over-complicated solution is needed, just the above stuff and things would be MUCH better, imho.
First of all, which build would this "sentinel" have? There are several. Sentinel hybrid? Sentinel tank? What about attributes STR-CON-DEX?
Which gear to reach the CW gear score? Sentinel PvP new gear? Or destroyer? Instigator? 2+2, 4/4?
Overcomplicated.
Also: don't know if you play GWFs, but it's not like people see you and says "ok, do not attack him". You get focused. A lot. By ranged classes. And cced a lot. It's more like "oh noes, a GWF. All focus on him or we won't be able to take him down". Not a good way to get out of trouble, if you ask me.
If a defensive spell must be added to CWs, i'd add some kind of illusion or multiple copy to try and fool/ confuse the enemy. At the cost of 1 attack spell, of course.
And the stuff i explained above like increased teleport range exc...
Nah, they should be easier to kill - if you get to them. Nowadays you ALWAYS get to the CW, they have no escape.
That's why i think CW defense must be buffed by increasing their ability to create distance. Increasing teleport distance, making them keep their cc against tenacity with a cc bonus on PvP sets, exc... Right now, as you say, they don't have enough tools compared to GWFs to create distance.
Attribute. Strenght (primary), Constitution and Dexterity. For GWFs.
Each point in strenght gives 1% damage increase, DoT resistance exc...
Each point in Constitution gives the GWF 1% DR reduction (aka, 1% armor penetration) and +2% HP.
Each point in Dexterity is 1% critical chance, 0,5% chance to deflect.
So, actually, CON and DEX give: HP,ArP, deflection, critical chance. That's why STR is useless for PvP on a GWF, RIGHT NOW. You go con-dex, you get both the best defensive stats (HP and deflection) and offensive stats (ArP diminishing returns start at very high scores, and crit is the best for spike damage needed in PvP).
Move ArP to STR. What do you get? Simple: a CON-DEX sentinel loses around 16% ArP, more if they use constitution focus (26 CON means 16% ArP bonus. More (18%) with Constitution focus). Which means, 16-18%+ less damage in PvP. With tenacity, crit damage is reduced. If they want more damage, they must rely on STR to increase their ArP, which forces them to
take away points from CON (less HP) or DEX (less deflection and critical chance) to put them into STR for more attack
put darks in their enchant slots in place of radiants (less HP)
Or go CON-DEX, losing the 18% damage bonus from ArP they have now.
Would also make DPS builds more viable for PvP, since that would be the way to deal damage (at the cost of survivability).
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
Go on Thieve's Den forums and you will see that perma-skill and semi-skill rogs think its ok to solo bosses and everybody else should be nerfed ofc. Then you have fanboys "i haz nambaz" who roll hard hitting execs to 3 shot people with skillfull execution. Like that corpsesomething character, who feels "entitled" to having highest burst (because of the class he rolled and obviously TRICKSTER rogue is actually a misspelled name and it is in fact ASSASSIN and the devs named it wrong) and also brags about how he facetanks fighter classes and wants to do it more effectively(dem skillz). If anybody is talking balance all TRs in Exec paragon and/or perma-skillz build should shut up.
But again, doesn't this mean that they have to give up radiants and HP gear?
Right now, sentinels go full CON and DEX. Then they focus gear and enchants on HP, deflection and regeneration, plus sometimes some ArP.
With points going to STR and CON, to add crit and deflection they must either change some HP gear and enchants to crit/ deflection enchants.
I'll test PvP gear combos to see if it's possible to get crit and deflection while keeping HP gear/ enchants too.
No, we are talking about the game its self, specifically pvp. I play all of the classes. I am not a GWF, I have a toon that is a GWF. Nothing is the GWF's fault. It is one component of an overall system. GWF players did not conspire and create the class to make the game suck for everyone else lol. My point is being ignored altogether: we do not need to nerf gwfs, we simply need to buff up one or two other classes. I am against nerfs and support instead increasing the power of other classes. I was against the GF stalwart nerf, which when implemented flushed some of the most dedicated and long-term NWO players down the toilet to other pass times. I am against this nerf. I would be against nerfing TR stealth at all.
I am just against nerfs period. Especially in pvp. Give the weak class a buff, change up the mode and add a practical matchmaking and ranking system. There its fixed.
Jugger Conq GF
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IV Sent is so cookie cutter easily optimized that this question shouldn't even need answered. It isn't overcomplicated at all. Just the optimal IV Sent build. As far as gear, same tier as cws but pvp, focused on the optimal build.
The problem is with the GWF is the IV Sent. Lets get that straight. There are some creative people who make IV Destroyers work, but in pvp the OP build is the IV Sent. An IV Destroyer can do comparative damage but it is so much less of a tank.
So we really arent talking about an entire class so much as a single build of that class. It is currently the optimal build in all of NWO with the exception of CW builds in pve.
The problem is not how "OP" IV Sent is, the problem is just how narrow our choices are in terms of optimized builds in NWO.
Any really good game facilitates multiple, equally difficult, paths to success. That makes the game challenging and not boring. You find different ways to win. Success for the player in an MMO is having a kick-*** end game toon that wins much more than it loses. There being maybe only TWO such paths in NWO is ultimately a game-killer.
That is why I push buffing classes rather than nerfing other classes.
EDIT: almost forgot. Yes the GWF gets focused. A lot. It means sometimes you kill 3 of 5 of the other team before going down on a node or sometimes you just die. But it forces the enemy team to shift its resources away from your team and what they are doing and on to you. Freeing your team up to wreak havoc. That is the real "opness" of gwf in domination pvp. It is also why it aggravates me when I can kite 3-5 of the enemy team all the way back to their home node for a good 30 second fight and yet my own team still manages to not secure a single node in that time. Then I get yelled at for not sticking with the rest of the party like everyone else is just a support cast for the gwf. Screw that! lol
Jugger Conq GF
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Indeed. Premonition, Stoneskin, Etherealness....there are SO MANY possible arcane defenses for CW that are simply not even on the slate in NWO and imo that is a major failing. It could be a whole different Paragon path focused on defense. I played another game for years that had a Wizard daily called "Epic Transmutation Barrier". It made a temporary ring of impassable stone around the Wizard so the character could have a nice safe distance when needed. The only things that could get through that wall was ranged dps. It wasn't "easymode" because if cast at the wrong time the wizard would be locked in there with a nasty pve enemy or pvp tank, but in NWO, paired with repel I think it would be nice. So many simple solutions.....
Jugger Conq GF
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I'd rather go for something that fits the class features.
CWs are ranged, DPS with, supposedly, the best CC among all classes. Their defense is the CC and the ability to create a gap between them and the opponent. Not transforming into a tank to save their butt.
CWs need to get back their ability to create distance and get away, imho. Not to get a way to tank.
I agreewith mirror images cause it seems a good tool to counter TRs stealthkilling CWs before they can even react.
Once you get caught, also, your build and gear determines if you can take 1 rotation and then fight again. I'd say it again: soulforged is a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> choice for a CW in PvP. Barkshield is way better to both avoid being 1-shotted by TRs from stealth, and mitigate the spike damage of melees when they reach you. Also, negation could be a way to survive the first wave of damage. Imho, much better choice than soulforged. I don't get why so many players other than regeneration tanks go for soulforged in PvP...
However, i'm not a CW. If CWs want a buff to tank damage/ absorb damage directly, it's their choice.
Because currently soulforged + artifact is a get out of jail card while barkshield most of the time does nothing. It takes 8 seconds for a charge to reload, in PvP 8 secs is an eternity. The charges get consumed by anything so 3 crappy at will - no charges left.
It would work IF the CW is not being hit, IF it had time to recharge it and IF it absorbs the big damage an not some at wills (don;t remeber if dots discharge it as well)
Soulforged always works. Certainly, after the changes maybe it will become more desired, in absence of anything else.
Yeah we now have a boon that does dot damage. One hit from anything will let this boon fully remove barkshield, while it absorbs like 750 total damage. lol
IF you're getting spammed with at-wills, your barkshield is nullified. But if you get focused by melees, you can get back to life, but you'll get killed right after. I see it happening to many CWs. They die, usually while cced/ proned. Get back to life, get proned again and killed. Sometimes they can shoot the artifact and try to get away, but, again, usually, they die right after.
Probably in premades it's different.
Barkshield too is very situational. In PvP rarely enemies can take a good look at you and waste some time to burn your charges. They just try to burst you down. Every 8 seconds, with a perfect, you absorb 800 or so damage. A CW will rarely get hit for less than 800, even by at-wills. Which means, in a 1 minute fight (soulforge recharges in 60 seconds) you get 7 charges. 5600 HP total, or more.
Soulforge will also get less useful with healing depression in PvP.
So many boons, gear and enchants will get a brutal nerf in PvP.
Optimal is a pretty narrow, specific build. In this case it is pvp optimal which is a pretty straightforward IV Sent. Playstyle isn't really an issue since Tensers is just supposed to make you Hulk for a few "rounds" so you can face tank and damage anything without dying immediately.
Well I don't disagree, the Tensers idea is just one example of how even the early pnp dnd devs managed to easily fix what is obviously a universal issue with arcane casters: squishiness.
Well the thing is, BIS and perfect vorpal ANYTHING vs nearly ANYTHING else and that is a single rotation death.
I know I'd like it or SOMETHING for my cw. Much more so than a universal nerf that happens to affect one or two classes more than any of the others.
Jugger Conq GF
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