CWs have been for a very long time, and are right now, the class that is "OP" for PvE, very often stacked and Always needed.
GWFs, even after module 2, are not. But i don't read CWs asking for a fix to that, It's fine for them.
I guess everyone have different priorities.
I've posted numerous times about changing dungeon design to:
- make all classes needed
- make tanks&heals needed, or guaranteed wipes
- make melee DPS needed by adding antimagic shielded mobs
Hope this sets things straight in this aspect.
As for GWF concerns about Tenacity&DR:
- yes it will affect DC&GWFs more overall than other classes
- yes other classes will RADICALLY be affected as well
- squishies get a bit more resilient but lose most of their ability to do spike damage, an ability which we depend upon
- CWs almost completely lose CC abilities; this is so bad, that even our most important combo is unfunctional at this moment. And yes, we depend on CC... just as you GWFs depend on your temp HP and heals
My opinion is that if this is supposed to be a GWF nerf, it is very badly done. If you really wanna nerf the class, just do that and leave others alone.
And yes, GWFs can be (not all are) extremely powerful in PvP and carry teams to victory on their shoulders. I've seen quite a few of these awesome guys. CWs can't do that. Lemme know when they can, and I'll pretty much stop posting this stuff.
I've posted numerous times about changing dungeon design to:
- make all classes needed
- make tanks&heals needed, or guaranteed wipes
- make melee DPS needed by adding antimagic shielded mobs
Hope this sets things straight in this aspect.
As for GWF concerns about Tenacity&DR:
- yes it will affect DC&GWFs more overall than other classes
- yes other classes will RADICALLY be affected as well
- squishies get a bit more resilient but lose most of their ability to do spike damage, an ability which we depend upon
- CWs almost completely lose CC abilities; this is so bad, that even our most important combo is unfunctional at this moment. And yes, we depend on CC... just as you GWFs depend on your temp HP and heals
My opinion is that if this is supposed to be a GWF nerf, it is very badly done. If you really wanna nerf the class, just do that and leave others alone.
And yes, GWFs can be (not all are) extremely powerful in PvP and carry teams to victory on their shoulders. I've seen quite a few of these awesome guys. CWs can't do that. Lemme know when they can, and I'll pretty much stop posting this stuff.
Well after researching so I know what I am actually talking about :P the nerf definitely disproportionately affects gwf iv sents. Look here:
Excuse me, but, assuming the amount of total HP was the same before and after tenacity, if a squishy class with tenacity gains more raw DR, then it's still an improvement over tank builds.
Obviously, a tank build is still tankier. But in comparison to how things are without tenacity, a squishy with tenacity is tankier, while a tank with tenacity is "a bit tankier".
It's not an improvement because each % point of DR is worth more than the last. Going from 0-20% gives a 20% damage reduction. Going from 50% to 60% gives a 20% damage reduction. For effective HPs, assuming say 30,000, the former gives 7500 more effective hps (30,000 to 37,500) and the latter gives 15000 (60,000 to 75000). Looking at it from that perspective, the tank gains more effective HPs than the squishy. Both are a 20% improvement.
edit: effective HPs = Total Hps/Damage Reduction.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
I've posted numerous times about changing dungeon design to:
- make all classes needed
- make tanks&heals needed, or guaranteed wipes - make melee DPS needed by adding antimagic shielded mobs
Hope this sets things straight in this aspect.
As for GWF concerns about Tenacity&DR:
- yes it will affect DC&GWFs more overall than other classes
- yes other classes will RADICALLY be affected as well
- squishies get a bit more resilient but lose most of their ability to do spike damage, an ability which we depend upon
- CWs almost completely lose CC abilities; this is so bad, that even our most important combo is unfunctional at this moment. And yes, we depend on CC... just as you GWFs depend on your temp HP and heals
My opinion is that if this is supposed to be a GWF nerf, it is very badly done. If you really wanna nerf the class, just do that and leave others alone.
And yes, GWFs can be (not all are) extremely powerful in PvP and carry teams to victory on their shoulders. I've seen quite a few of these awesome guys. CWs can't do that. Lemme know when they can, and I'll pretty much stop posting this stuff.
The last action rpg I was addicted to used Bueroza and similar things quite liberally in random spawn to ensure that spell-casters were utterly useless at sometimes the most dangerous of moments. Likewise there was spawn that made melee and ranged physical dps useless. And so there was balance.
And yes, GWFs can be (not all are) extremely powerful in PvP and carry teams to victory on their shoulders. I've seen quite a few of these awesome guys. CWs can't do that. Lemme know when they can, and I'll pretty much stop posting this stuff.
Tank DCs too can carry a team to victory by contesting points against multiple enemies.
I've seen also TRs doing the same.
CWs are less noticeable, but a strong CW that can burst down fast the enemies can for sure make a difference.
Good PvP players can cancel GWFs simply through focused DPS. HRs can root them in place, GFs can chain prone them. Tank DCs can stall them.
GWFs are as strong as the enemies allow them to be. As i said in other threads: GWFs are peculiar cause, while any other class just requires generic DPS to be taken down, GWFs require very focused spike DPS (possibily when proned first) when out of unstoppable, and at-will-DoT spam during unstoppable to reduce their ability to regenerate, to be taken down. Else, you just make them stronger. If the enemy powers them up through random, generic DPS (for example, using at-wills against them, feeding their determination), then they are able to carry the team on their shoulders, as you say.
In pugs, i've Always seen GWFs dominating against bad PvPers, and being effectively taken down/ cancelled by experienced players (given a comparable gear).
Don't play premades, but i've never seen a video of a premade/ high level PvP, where a GWF could carry the team to victory.
This is my experience as a non-casual PvPer (bloodthirsty exc..., managed to play with and against ppl from any guild, with any level of gear and experience). But i admit that i may have lost something.
For now, my insight on the "GWF" issue is that some things can be fixed, but a big part of the issue is due to players not really understanding how to fight them, and unintentionally powering them up.
This said, i also mentioned the fact that things could be balanced since other classes get a big nerf to some core mechanics such as spike damage from crits and CC.
It has to be tested. But again: i don't see GWFs as the "powerhouses" people believe them to be. Just need to be focused to take them down, while people just like to swarm enemies and think it will work on anyone. Randomly "swarming" a GWF, instead, just MAKES him into a power house. Just like crushing your encounters on the shield of a GF can let him tank you forever, or not pressuring/ use the right powers against a strong TR, can make it feel like he's playing you around easily.
GWFs are as strong as the enemies allow them to be. As i said in other threads: GWFs are peculiar cause, while any other class just requires generic DPS to be taken down, [bold]GWFs require very focused spike DPS (possibily when proned first) when out of unstoppable [/bold], and at-will-DoT spam during unstoppable to reduce their ability to regenerate, to be taken down. Else, you just make them stronger. If the enemy powers them up through random, generic DPS (for example, using at-wills against them, feeding their determination), then they are able to carry the team on their shoulders, as you say.
You do realize that the type of coordinated burst damage you are talking about would also kill any other class.
I really don't have an issue with GWF survivability or even that they can do pretty good burst damage. The issue is Threatening Rush on many levels. First, the mobility makes it nearly impossible for other classes to get away from you. I don't even sprint cancel anymore because of how chessy it is and still stick to people like glue. Secondly is the way it affects GWF damage. It marks increasing damage by 24.2% (8%*15% tested) and it doubles strikes with the mark. The double strike gives 2 stacks of student of the sword (3 stacks up to 15% more damage) and 2 stacks of weapon master (10% crit at 5 stacks and 7.5% deflect I think on the Deflect).
What this means is GWF damage ramps up very fast from just one move, not to mention threatening rush itself does a lot of damage when it crits. One threatening rush crit boosts raw damage by 36.62%, gives 4% more crit, and DoTs the target for more damage. They are fixing Threatening Rush sprint cancelling, but it probably needs another small delay for GWFs so it isn't so spammable and so it takes some skill to apply the extra DPS. They need to fix the double hit. One Threatening Rush should only give one stack of SotS on crit and 1 stack of Weapon Master per hit. Finally they need to reduce the damage of the Threatening Rush ability for GWFs like they are Frontline Rush remebering that it was originally intended for GFs with smaller damage ranges.
These changes would make GWF more counterable and require more skill of the GWF to do damage. I think GWFs would be surprised how much less damage they would be doing in PvP from fixing just this one ability playing the way most of them do right now. With CC reduction of Tenacity, it will already be harder to do the prone chains they currently do and fixing Threatening Rush in this manner makes their mobility more counterable, the mark damage more counterable since it wouldn't be as spammable, and requires more ramp up time for GWFs to get the big burst damage.
That means a GWF coun't just hold his Threatening Rush button (or worse sprint cancel it for machinegun damage) waiting to do his prone chain to be effective. The big thing though is that it makes them counterable likie every other class without neutering their damage completely.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
0
pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
You do realize that the type of coordinated burst damage you are talking about would also kill any other class.
I really don't have an issue with GWF survivability or even that they can do pretty good burst damage. The issue is Threatening Rush on many levels. First, the mobility makes it nearly impossible for other classes to get away from you. I don't even sprint cancel anymore because of how chessy it is and still stick to people like glue. Secondly is the way it affects GWF damage. It marks increasing damage by 24.2% (8%*15% tested) and it doubles strikes with the mark. The double strike gives 2 stacks of student of the sword (3 stacks up to 15% more damage) and 2 stacks of weapon master (10% crit at 5 stacks and 7.5% deflect I think on the Deflect).
What this means is GWF damage ramps up very fast from just one move, not to mention threatening rush itself does a lot of damage when it crits. One threatening rush crit boosts raw damage by 36.62%, gives 4% more crit, and DoTs the target for more damage. They are fixing Threatening Rush sprint cancelling, but it probably needs another small delay for GWFs so it isn't so spammable and so it takes some skill to apply the extra DPS. They need to fix the double hit. One Threatening Rush should only give one stack of SotS on crit and 1 stack of Weapon Master per hit. Finally they need to reduce the damage of the Threatening Rush ability for GWFs like they are Frontline Rush remebering that it was originally intended for GFs with smaller damage ranges.
These changes would make GWF more counterable and require more skill of the GWF to do damage. I think GWFs would be surprised how much less damage they would be doing in PvP from fixing just this one ability playing the way most of them do right now. With CC reduction of Tenacity, it will already be harder to do the prone chains they currently do and fixing Threatening Rush in this manner makes their mobility more counterable, the mark damage more counterable since it wouldn't be as spammable, and requires more ramp up time for GWFs to get the big burst damage.
That means a GWF coun't just hold his Threatening Rush button (or worse sprint cancel it for machinegun damage) waiting to do his prone chain to be effective. The big thing though is that it makes them counterable likie every other class without neutering their damage completely.
Thanks for the sincerity. There are a few GWFs that continuously were honest and told things as they are in the forums, to the dismay of mostly anybody else playing the class, props to you guys.
Some people have a VERY HARD TIME understanding that a TANK character in MMO PVP should NOT push huge amount of damage, while also having A LOT of survivability. There must be tradeoffs.
Right now, at highest PvP levels, GWFs are both extremely good tanks, and very potent damage dealers that can destroy a squishy in a single rotation, after they just casually and passively deflected half of squishy attacks and took greatly reduced damage from mostly anything.
Don't get me wrong, I have no issue with GWFs having the potential to do large amounts of damage. My issue is that is not anyway to really counter it at the moment and no way to escape. I remember mod 2 and how GWFs were hard to kill, but 0 threat unless they had Tenebrous. You could ignore us nearly completely at high levels. A bit of a simplification, but GWFs needed a way to become a threat. The changes that came though were way over the top. I still think Deep Gash needs to be out of reach of Sentinels because it's damage is pretty ridiculous. You want Deep Gash damage, go deep Destroyer or Instigator for it.
Combine that with fixing threatening rush, and I think GWFs would fall in a decent place amongst the other classes. Even Sentinels would still have potentially high burst, but it would be counterable by good players just like TRs, GFs, and CWs get countered. They wouldn't have the crazy DPS while using a mobility move anymore, and thus could be countered by mobility. Something has to give, and I think it should be mobility and the damage ramp up slowed down. But they need some threat, or they are just a pin cushion for everyone to beat on with little fear.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
If GWFs (like myself) want damage, it should be at a loss of tankiness. So far the GWF gets the best of all worlds.
1) ULTRA tanky
2) Amazing burst damage
3) Good CC
4) Amazing Anti-CC
So whats the downside of the class? Cant think of one.... Versus EVERY other class has downsides.
GF:
Pros - Ultra Tanky (with PVP gear for more block meter). Good CC/prones
Cons - Low damage, low mobility, no CC resist
CWs:
Pros - High damage, Decent control
Cons - Squishy, no CC resist
TRs:
Pros - High damage, can build for "perma stealth"
Cons - No CC, squishy when caught.
Need I go on?
Now there ARE things that should be fixed, like the perma build a tad. But overall the GWF is just too powerful right now.
Pre Mod 2, Sents had low damage but high survivability. This was due to lack of itemization for needed stats (regen) and lack of damage feats. Mod 2 gave artifacts, opening up more gear combos, and also IV path gave a massive damage boost with threat rush.
So pick which aspect GWF should give up...
damage? CC immunity? Tankiness?
Personally I would like to see the GWF be more the "jack of all trades" so its decent tankiness, decent damage, etc... But right now it does everything.
Tank DCs too can carry a team to victory by contesting points against multiple enemies.
I've seen also TRs doing the same.
CWs are less noticeable, but a strong CW that can burst down fast the enemies can for sure make a difference.
Good PvP players can cancel GWFs simply through focused DPS. HRs can root them in place, GFs can chain prone them. Tank DCs can stall them.
GWFs are as strong as the enemies allow them to be. As i said in other threads: GWFs are peculiar cause, while any other class just requires generic DPS to be taken down, GWFs require very focused spike DPS (possibily when proned first) when out of unstoppable, and at-will-DoT spam during unstoppable to reduce their ability to regenerate, to be taken down. Else, you just make them stronger. If the enemy powers them up through random, generic DPS (for example, using at-wills against them, feeding their determination), then they are able to carry the team on their shoulders, as you say.
In pugs, i've Always seen GWFs dominating against bad PvPers, and being effectively taken down/ cancelled by experienced players (given a comparable gear).
Don't play premades, but i've never seen a video of a premade/ high level PvP, where a GWF could carry the team to victory.
This is my experience as a non-casual PvPer (bloodthirsty exc..., managed to play with and against ppl from any guild, with any level of gear and experience). But i admit that i may have lost something.
For now, my insight on the "GWF" issue is that some things can be fixed, but a big part of the issue is due to players not really understanding how to fight them, and unintentionally powering them up.
This said, i also mentioned the fact that things could be balanced since other classes get a big nerf to some core mechanics such as spike damage from crits and CC.
It has to be tested. But again: i don't see GWFs as the "powerhouses" people believe them to be. Just need to be focused to take them down, while people just like to swarm enemies and think it will work on anyone. Randomly "swarming" a GWF, instead, just MAKES him into a power house. Just like crushing your encounters on the shield of a GF can let him tank you forever, or not pressuring/ use the right powers against a strong TR, can make it feel like he's playing you around easily.
On live GWF is veeery OP. Problem is, fromt he few matches with the new gear i had on the preview, either TRs are completely spasticated or they just rolled the wrong class. They all and I don't mean perm stealths but regular TRs are trying to facetank me, not dodging away for extra air or distraction tactics but only to avoid couple of skills, other than that full on facetank, think about it GWF isn't a full on tank but rather an armoured convoy car, TR is like a paratrooper using surprise and stealth, but why on earth would a paratrooper drop in from of an armoured vehicle and shoot it with regular bullets? Another thing, the TRs are dps hungry(i wants hai nabmaz!!!1111oneoneeleven) they never slot utility feats and in particular the feat -90% stealth loss from dmg, with the CD on Threatning Rush I can't chase them anymore, all I can do is rush and then they have like 2 seconds before the animation completes, plenty of time to refill stealth and get the extra effect on 1 ability, but no, they demand and feel entitled to take me out while facetanking me 1v1, not utilising stealth and not dodging my attacks and I must say unless we are 100% equal skill/gear they would most of the time do it because the majority of opponent TRs i've faced so far were R9/10, 3 orange artifacts + perfects and i'm sitting on 2 purrples, r7 and normals. BTW the TR damage atm is the highest out of all the classes, CWs damage is so laughable in comparison that it is ridiculous. CW was my first ever main and I remember the burst was the only thing I had, at least i was able to kill things if not under pressure at almost the same speed as a rogue but atm TRs are rocking 7-14k crits and their Shocking didn't even get affected by anything since it ignores defence, meanwhile other classes are struggling to crit 5-7k and CWs hit like kindergartners.
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katbozejziemiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 856Arc User
- make melee DPS needed by adding antimagic shielded mobs
You know, it's funny they have different damage types in the game (physical, arcane, fire, lightning, etc.) when they don't matter at all anywhere. Enemies don't have weaknesses/resistances to any of them.
People need to test things before making these long threads which cause panic...
Not trying to get all defensive, but in my post I stated that "The purpose of this post is not just so that I can learn more about what this new PvP system has in store for the future of GWFs, but for other GWF’s and players that don’t know about this new PvP system." I did mention several times that I currently have no access at this moment to the test server as well.
My perspective of this post was a "GWF that has no idea whats going to happen to the GWF and if this patch was going to be mainly a nerf to the class for PvP", all I did was express my (maybe others) concerns. If I could test the GWF out, I would have done that already. Thanks for your post /feedback .
P.S. THANK YOU ALL for your feedback/comments other then the sarcastic comments :P. Feel free to give more feedback/comments. Have a good day:cool:.
It would be nice to actually have a way to test PvP stuff. Unfortunately, unless you go there with a Group of friends, it's hard to even find a PvP match on preview.
BTW, as i suggested in other threads:
now that regeneration during combat is significally reduced, it could be a good move to switch ArP to STR and DoT resistance to CON. This way, one of the reasons (the main reason if you ask me) of the "best of both worlds" issue, will be gone. You go STR, you get a true damage buff. You go CON, you get a good defensive buff, but at the cost of less DPS.
Also, again, changing determination gain from X amount of HP lost, to X% of total HP lost. This way, no matter how much HP you have, Unstoppable works the same for every build.
These 2 changes, along with healing depression applied to regeneration/ life steal/ potions/ artifacts, would be enough.
Unstoppable temp HP nerfed again, restoring strike nerfed, exc..., is just not needed. It just makes destroyer/ DPS builds even less viable and restoring strike obsolete in PvP.
It's not causing panic. To be honest, as i stated in the previous posts, considering all the changes, it does not seem like there's one class that got nerfed "more". To speak frankly, i read more panicking posts from Trs/ CWs afraid of losing their DPS and CC, then from GWFs afraid of losing their tankyness/ self-healing capability.
I keep reading GWFs are "OP", yet i still see good CWs/TRs/HRs being able to focus them correctly and take them down.
Also, everyone assume that GWF= full tank. As a result, for example, in the same match i got:
- one guy trolling me ("weak GWF" cause my hybrid could not be immortal in a 3v1 fight
- the same guy writing "nerf this ****" when i got him and burned him down in 1 rotation
From my experience, in PUGs, GWFs are as strong as the enemies allow them to be, if gear is on the same level.
In some fights i can go unstoppable 20 times cause the enemy team swarm on me with at-wills, feeding by determination. In other fights, i struggle to survive cause the enemy can focus me, prone me, root me, cc me the right way and my HP drop very fast.
I myself, as a hybrid, when fighting a GWF tank never, ever use at-wills when he's normal and standing. Mark, takedown, mark, frontline, mark, IBS. He goes unstoppable, spam at will to reduce regeneration through damage and deep gash. He's out of unstoppable, i wait and then prone-focus DPS again. The problem is when my team mates keep swarming the GWF with at-wills, turining him big and red in no time.
I'm not saying there's not an issue with the current GWF.
Just not as big as people seem to believe. My opinion, of course.
This is something i noticed on live too. Some TRs just try and facetank you directly. Now, if they were made to facetank, they would be GWFs and not TRs. Also, i see many TRs/ CWs using their dodge/ teleport just as a "move away" special move. Then they complain cause after 3 telports/ dodges, they've nowhere to run.
Now, again: there's a reason if their dodge/ teleport move has immunity to cc and invulnerability, i think. And there's a reason if GWF most powerful source of DPS (IBS) requires the enemy to be proned to connect, being a very, very slow move. And again, my idea is: those dodge/ teleport moves are also meant to be used to nullify the GWF prones, preventing the to actually hit you with their encounters. Is it a 100% sure move? No. But our prone isn't a 100% sure move either. It is, and should be, all about changing the pattern of your dodges/ prones to fool your enemy. But most Cws and TRs, instead, just use them in such a predictable way, that making them waste these moves is too **** easy.
Worst CWs are the ones that change their pattern of movement. The ones that one time teleport as soon as you reach them, the next time wait few seconds just walking away, and so on. This way you never know when to use your takedown/ frontline. They are not sure either about when you're going to try and prone them. Which, if you ask me, is fair.
CD on threat rush is ok, anyway. Right now it feels very cheap to have a spammable gap-closer that can also apply a mark debuff, activating a feat and also daealing good damage with a chance of crit and consequent deep gash DoT.
Just hope it will help CWs/ TRs to get smart and actually start using their dodge immunity correctly.
0
pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2014
- GWF at wills do too much damage for CW to facetank them
- GWF takedown ang FLS anims are very short and if you "dodge" them successfully on your screen, you get rubberbanded back into prone
- IBS? 12-17K HP gone? This leaves a normal 22-25K HP CW dead cause it's the last one in rotation, and a PvP CW with 30K+ HP almost dead as well, you can get them afterwards with some rushes.
So yeah. CW cannot just stay there and eat at wills, they have to move away. Count to 3, start rotation, CW dead, pure skill.
Does CW wins some duels? Yeah... against badly outgeared GWFs or guys that just don't know what to do in PvP.
It would be nice to actually have a way to test PvP stuff. Unfortunately, unless you go there with a Group of friends, it's hard to even find a PvP match on preview.
BTW, as i suggested in other threads:
now that regeneration during combat is significally reduced, it could be a good move to switch ArP to STR and DoT resistance to CON. This way, one of the reasons (the main reason if you ask me) of the "best of both worlds" issue, will be gone. You go STR, you get a true damage buff. You go CON, you get a good defensive buff, but at the cost of less DPS.
Also, again, changing determination gain from X amount of HP lost, to X% of total HP lost. This way, no matter how much HP you have, Unstoppable works the same for every build.
These 2 changes, along with healing depression applied to regeneration/ life steal/ potions/ artifacts, would be enough.
Unstoppable temp HP nerfed again, restoring strike nerfed, exc..., is just not needed. It just makes destroyer/ DPS builds even less viable and restoring strike obsolete in PvP.
It's not causing panic. To be honest, as i stated in the previous posts, considering all the changes, it does not seem like there's one class that got nerfed "more". To speak frankly, i read more panicking posts from Trs/ CWs afraid of losing their DPS and CC, then from GWFs afraid of losing their tankyness/ self-healing capability.
I keep reading GWFs are "OP", yet i still see good CWs/TRs/HRs being able to focus them correctly and take them down.
Also, everyone assume that GWF= full tank. As a result, for example, in the same match i got:
- one guy trolling me ("weak GWF" cause my hybrid could not be immortal in a 3v1 fight
- the same guy writing "nerf this ****" when i got him and burned him down in 1 rotation
From my experience, in PUGs, GWFs are as strong as the enemies allow them to be, if gear is on the same level.
In some fights i can go unstoppable 20 times cause the enemy team swarm on me with at-wills, feeding by determination. In other fights, i struggle to survive cause the enemy can focus me, prone me, root me, cc me the right way and my HP drop very fast.
I myself, as a hybrid, when fighting a GWF tank never, ever use at-wills when he's normal and standing. Mark, takedown, mark, frontline, mark, IBS. He goes unstoppable, spam at will to reduce regeneration through damage and deep gash. He's out of unstoppable, i wait and then prone-focus DPS again. The problem is when my team mates keep swarming the GWF with at-wills, turining him big and red in no time.
I'm not saying there's not an issue with the current GWF.
Just not as big as people seem to believe. My opinion, of course.
I have seen the Str/Con suggestion and it is an unnecessary change. No other ability in the game works like that. No one complained about ArPen on Con before Mod 2 because GWF damage was weak or they were squishy. The problem is that Sentinels have the highest practical, applicable PvP damage over Instigator and Destroyer. You go Sentinel, you get more survival and more applicable burst damage than the other trees. That and Threatening Rush.
The other issue is your experience as a Hybrid. I am assuming Destroyer or Instigator in Sentinel type pvp gear right? A sub-par spec gives you a different perspective. Trust me, as a Sentinel I most likely do more damage than you and am more survivable. Powerful Challenge+SotS+Deep Gash. You can't get those as a Destroyer or Instigator all together.
I have faced some really, really good players in pre-mades and pugs and have not ran into anybody that bursts me down fast enough between Unstoppables that I need to worry 1v1. There are those that have worked me down to beat me, but it took them a long while despite the fact that I have a ton of offensive stats. The thing is, any class will go down to well coordinated directed focus fire, I don't care how good you are.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
The fact that GWFs are so reliant on Unstoppable is laughable.
The devs should tweak it such that after every Unstoppable deactivation, implement a set cooldown (5-10s) before it can be activated again, to at least have some form of balance.
The fact that GWFs are so reliant on Unstoppable is laughable.
Why is it laughable? Are not rogues so reliant on their stealth? So they can Regenerate their health back. Yes it has a set cool down, but they have gear, feats, and powers that gives them more stealth, a majority of their powers rely on stealth (more effectiveness). Of course this is just an example and my opinion. I understand the idea of a set cooldown time, but GWF's get pillowfisted, it's not like they can regain Unstoppable while in Unstoppable. I don't see how a class being reliant on their main mechanic is laughable. Anyways, wasn't trying to be harsh or anything. Just stating my opinion :P. Thanks for the post.
Why is it laughable? Are not rogues so reliant on their stealth? So they can Regenerate their health back. Yes it has a set cool down, but they have gear, feats, and powers that gives them more stealth, a majority of their powers rely on stealth (more effectiveness). Of course this is just an example and my opinion. I understand the idea of a set cooldown time, but GWF's get pillowfisted, it's not like they can regain Unstoppable while in Unstoppable. I don't see how a class being reliant on their main mechanic is laughable. Anyways, wasn't trying to be harsh or anything. Just stating my opinion :P. Thanks for the post.
I understand your point but,
Stealth can at least be countered by some way such as GWF's Roar, Lantern of Revelation and others.
On the other hand, Unstoppable gives bonus Temporary HP, CC Immunity and Damage Reduction, and it gets even worse when Regeneration and Unstoppable Recovery from Sentinel feats get involved, and it's all spammable just by getting attacked?
Stealth can at least be countered by some way such as GWF's Roar, Lantern of Revelation and others.
On the other hand, Unstoppable gives bonus Temporary HP, CC Immunity and Damage Reduction, and it gets even worse when Regeneration and Unstoppable Recovery from Sentinel feats get involved, and it's all spammable just by getting attacked?
Just lol.
That power needs to get adjusted properly...way too OP
- GWF at wills do too much damage for CW to facetank them
- GWF takedown ang FLS anims are very short and if you "dodge" them successfully on your screen, you get rubberbanded back into prone
- IBS? 12-17K HP gone? This leaves a normal 22-25K HP CW dead cause it's the last one in rotation, and a PvP CW with 30K+ HP almost dead as well, you can get them afterwards with some rushes.
So yeah. CW cannot just stay there and eat at wills, they have to move away. Count to 3, start rotation, CW dead, pure skill.
Does CW wins some duels? Yeah... against badly outgeared GWFs or guys that just don't know what to do in PvP.
- You know, you don't have to stand still if you do not teleport. Can move away/ repel/ bunnyhop. Sure strike needs the GWF to stand almost still. If you move, the GWF has, most of the time if you have decent mobility, to stop the at-will and run at you
- rubberbanding is there for GWFs/ melees too. Even more, for a melee class. For example, you can FLS or takedown on a target, just to have the lag move it away untouched. I didn't say you have to immune dodge the exact second you see the animation. I said people must stop being predictable. If i FLS/ takedown Always as soon as i rach you, you will know you just have to teleport right away when i reach you. It does not mean your teleport immunity is OP. It means i'm a nab who's being predictable. Same way, if you teleport Always as soon as i reach you, you're being predictable, and i just have to count to 3 to prone you. If you teleport right away one time, after a few seconds the second time, and change the pattern of your teleports, it's an equal chance for you to dodge at the right moment, and an equal chance for me to fail my FLS/ takedown.
- IBS hits IF the GWF manages to prone you. Now, by the time i can use my IBS, you already unloaded all your encounters, debuffed me and sometimes even used your daily + some at will spam. When i reach you, if you're not being predictable with your teleports, i don't really know when to prone you, cause i don't know when you will teleport. I wait your teleports, your cooldowns get shorter and you'll be able to cc me again soon. I try to prone, there's an equal chance i either catch you or miss the prone= 19 seconds CD for FLS, 12 seconds for takedown if i crush it on your immunity. During this time, you already used your encounters and your cooldowns are ending, while i have yet to use my IBS.
CWs usually suck cause they teleport right away, with a very predictable regual pattern. The few CWs i meet who can change their direction and time of the teleports, usually manage to avoid being proned for much longer. Also, i see very few CWs using repel.
CWs can win also against non-tank builds. The issue with tank builds is that they can tank too much/ regenerate too much. Other than that, how prone and teleport works, if used correctly, is just a matter of outthinking the opponent and luck. If you're being predictable, be it a CW, a TR or a GWF, a good enemy can take you down easily.
To me, a GWF "who does not know what to do in PvP" is the type that wastes his prones using them in a very predictable way. If i were to use my prones Always as soon as i reach a CW, i would crush them on their teleport immunity all the time.
Stealth can at least be countered by some way such as GWF's Roar, Lantern of Revelation and others.
On the other hand, Unstoppable gives bonus Temporary HP, CC Immunity and Damage Reduction, and it gets even worse when Regeneration and Unstoppable Recovery from Sentinel feats get involved, and it's all spammable just by getting attacked?
Just lol.
Unstoppable is "spammable" only if the nab enemy team spam weak at-wills in the GWF indiscriminately, feeding his determination.
I never at-will a GWF out of unstoppable. Always prone him, unload encounters for spike damage, spam at-wills/ DoT WHEN HE IS IN UNSTOPPABLE (aka, when he does not gain determination from damage), sprint away, avoid, wait for cooldowns to be over, prone again and spike damage with encounters again, Repeat.
Would i just spam my at wills randomly, i would make him stronger.
You guys have to realize that Unstoppable is spammable only if you DPS the GWF the wrong way (aka, like any other class).
Then you come complaining on the forums cause "how comes GWFs can spam Unstoppable?". Answer: cause you're allwing them to do that.
Unstoppable is OP only on very high HP builds (wrote in previous posts what should be changed for that). Other than that, it's working the way it should, and people should learn how to properly deal with it.
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crystal892fMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 385Arc User
I never at-will a GWF out of unstoppable. Always prone him, unload encounters for spike damage, spam at-wills/ DoT WHEN HE IS IN UNSTOPPABLE (aka, when he does not gain determination from damage), sprint away, avoid, wait for cooldowns to be over, prone again and spike damage with encounters again, Repeat.
Would i just spam my at wills randomly, i would make him stronger.
I read through this thread because I (CW and TR) have a really hard time against top (geared) GWFs (I fought GodSon once - gosh, did he whoop my butt).
I read some helpful tips, but the thing that surprises me the most is your bit of attacking a GWF (preferably with at-wills, so your encounters are ready when he's out of Unstoppable) in Unstoppable. With CW as my first class, I read somewhere that I shouldn't attack a GWF in Unstoppable at all. I don't remember anymore what the reasoning was, but maybe I just understood it wrong, lol.
Anyways, thanks for this tip.
I read through this thread because I (CW and TR) have a really hard time against top (geared) GWFs (I fought GodSon once - gosh, did he whoop my butt).
I read some helpful tips, but the thing that surprises me the most is your bit of attacking a GWF (preferably with at-wills, so your encounters are ready when he's out of Unstoppable) in Unstoppable. With CW as my first class, I read somewhere that I shouldn't attack a GWF in Unstoppable at all. I don't remember anymore what the reasoning was, but maybe I just understood it wrong, lol.
Anyways, thanks for this tip.
You don't attack a gwf if they're unstoppable if it means they can hit you back. If you can get a little distance and range them, attack away, it keeps their regen from healing them up farther meaning you can go back to dps racing them down while they're proned when unstoppable wears off again.
oh and btw, duration of prone is cut down significantly on the PTR. So have fun trying to "prone and unload" on a GWF on the PTR, also have fun trying to "unload" when a Sent OUT of unstoppable has around 70% DR, oh and also try doing that with 20% less crit damage who can turn around and still IBS crit you for 10k+ without batting an eye...
Its not about "At will spam" or "L2P" its the fact that a Sent, who has incredible high HP (like 38k+) who has incredibly high DR (over 60% up to 70%) on the PTR who cannot be kited around, who not only has sprint, but ranged prones AND an unlimited lunge...
Anyone who says GWFs are "fine" (aka steamroller) I would LOVE to see you get on a CW and go against a my GWF. it just laughable when players say things like
"learn to time your damage".
Is that true? sure its true! But does that address anything about the OPness of the GWF right now? Not at all....
Players just dont want getting their own class nerfed, thats the issue honestly. Which is why I post about GWFs because I have one and show videos all the time about why its <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> OP. You can see my last PTR test here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-danZ5aY40
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
- You know, you don't have to stand still if you do not teleport. Can move away/ repel/ bunnyhop. Sure strike needs the GWF to stand almost still. If you move, the GWF has, most of the time if you have decent mobility, to stop the at-will and run at you
Yeah sure.
Too bad you guys anim-cancel SPAM Threatening Rush.
Too bad you guys anim-cancel SPAM Threatening Rush.
Honestly, the cooldown on TR is short enough to not even need to rely on animation cancelling to fight other classes. Animation cancelling simply turns an already hard hitting at will into a machinegun. And you can do it without losing an ounce of stamina, which is ridiculous.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Honestly, the cooldown on TR is short enough to not even need to rely on animation cancelling to fight other classes. Animation cancelling simply turns an already hard hitting at will into a machinegun. And you can do it without losing an ounce of stamina, which is ridiculous.
To be honest, you guys should keep doing it for as long as it will be possible.
It's pretty frightening as a CW to have one of the good GWFs in the game, fully equipped and with that nice shiny perfect vorpal sword - always sticking to you like glue. And you obviously have to stop as a CW, and cast long animation spells, EF, Shard etc. and taking big damage each time is quite guaranteed.
As things are now, I view (good) GWFs like elite shocktroops in a war. You send them to placate the enemy, crush their souls, so they have no longer a desire to wage war on you :P One ubersoldier that takes with him 5 enemies before dying.
And I said it quite a few times before, I honestly don't think GWFs should get a nerf. I don't think any of you guys feel this is an unenjoyable playstyle, most GWFs I know have a blast playing this game. All that is needed is to bring the other classes up to par.
Comments
I've posted numerous times about changing dungeon design to:
- make all classes needed
- make tanks&heals needed, or guaranteed wipes
- make melee DPS needed by adding antimagic shielded mobs
Hope this sets things straight in this aspect.
As for GWF concerns about Tenacity&DR:
- yes it will affect DC&GWFs more overall than other classes
- yes other classes will RADICALLY be affected as well
- squishies get a bit more resilient but lose most of their ability to do spike damage, an ability which we depend upon
- CWs almost completely lose CC abilities; this is so bad, that even our most important combo is unfunctional at this moment. And yes, we depend on CC... just as you GWFs depend on your temp HP and heals
My opinion is that if this is supposed to be a GWF nerf, it is very badly done. If you really wanna nerf the class, just do that and leave others alone.
And yes, GWFs can be (not all are) extremely powerful in PvP and carry teams to victory on their shoulders. I've seen quite a few of these awesome guys. CWs can't do that. Lemme know when they can, and I'll pretty much stop posting this stuff.
Jugger Conq GF
....
Well after researching so I know what I am actually talking about :P the nerf definitely disproportionately affects gwf iv sents. Look here:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?589661-Shadowmantle-PvP-Preview-Patch-Notes-NW-14-20140123a-1
Ok everytime I try to quote that post, the forum breaks the quote.
Jugger Conq GF
....
It's not an improvement because each % point of DR is worth more than the last. Going from 0-20% gives a 20% damage reduction. Going from 50% to 60% gives a 20% damage reduction. For effective HPs, assuming say 30,000, the former gives 7500 more effective hps (30,000 to 37,500) and the latter gives 15000 (60,000 to 75000). Looking at it from that perspective, the tank gains more effective HPs than the squishy. Both are a 20% improvement.
edit: effective HPs = Total Hps/Damage Reduction.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
The last action rpg I was addicted to used Bueroza and similar things quite liberally in random spawn to ensure that spell-casters were utterly useless at sometimes the most dangerous of moments. Likewise there was spawn that made melee and ranged physical dps useless. And so there was balance.
Jugger Conq GF
....
Tank DCs too can carry a team to victory by contesting points against multiple enemies.
I've seen also TRs doing the same.
CWs are less noticeable, but a strong CW that can burst down fast the enemies can for sure make a difference.
Good PvP players can cancel GWFs simply through focused DPS. HRs can root them in place, GFs can chain prone them. Tank DCs can stall them.
GWFs are as strong as the enemies allow them to be. As i said in other threads: GWFs are peculiar cause, while any other class just requires generic DPS to be taken down, GWFs require very focused spike DPS (possibily when proned first) when out of unstoppable, and at-will-DoT spam during unstoppable to reduce their ability to regenerate, to be taken down. Else, you just make them stronger. If the enemy powers them up through random, generic DPS (for example, using at-wills against them, feeding their determination), then they are able to carry the team on their shoulders, as you say.
In pugs, i've Always seen GWFs dominating against bad PvPers, and being effectively taken down/ cancelled by experienced players (given a comparable gear).
Don't play premades, but i've never seen a video of a premade/ high level PvP, where a GWF could carry the team to victory.
This is my experience as a non-casual PvPer (bloodthirsty exc..., managed to play with and against ppl from any guild, with any level of gear and experience). But i admit that i may have lost something.
For now, my insight on the "GWF" issue is that some things can be fixed, but a big part of the issue is due to players not really understanding how to fight them, and unintentionally powering them up.
This said, i also mentioned the fact that things could be balanced since other classes get a big nerf to some core mechanics such as spike damage from crits and CC.
It has to be tested. But again: i don't see GWFs as the "powerhouses" people believe them to be. Just need to be focused to take them down, while people just like to swarm enemies and think it will work on anyone. Randomly "swarming" a GWF, instead, just MAKES him into a power house. Just like crushing your encounters on the shield of a GF can let him tank you forever, or not pressuring/ use the right powers against a strong TR, can make it feel like he's playing you around easily.
You do realize that the type of coordinated burst damage you are talking about would also kill any other class.
I really don't have an issue with GWF survivability or even that they can do pretty good burst damage. The issue is Threatening Rush on many levels. First, the mobility makes it nearly impossible for other classes to get away from you. I don't even sprint cancel anymore because of how chessy it is and still stick to people like glue. Secondly is the way it affects GWF damage. It marks increasing damage by 24.2% (8%*15% tested) and it doubles strikes with the mark. The double strike gives 2 stacks of student of the sword (3 stacks up to 15% more damage) and 2 stacks of weapon master (10% crit at 5 stacks and 7.5% deflect I think on the Deflect).
What this means is GWF damage ramps up very fast from just one move, not to mention threatening rush itself does a lot of damage when it crits. One threatening rush crit boosts raw damage by 36.62%, gives 4% more crit, and DoTs the target for more damage. They are fixing Threatening Rush sprint cancelling, but it probably needs another small delay for GWFs so it isn't so spammable and so it takes some skill to apply the extra DPS. They need to fix the double hit. One Threatening Rush should only give one stack of SotS on crit and 1 stack of Weapon Master per hit. Finally they need to reduce the damage of the Threatening Rush ability for GWFs like they are Frontline Rush remebering that it was originally intended for GFs with smaller damage ranges.
These changes would make GWF more counterable and require more skill of the GWF to do damage. I think GWFs would be surprised how much less damage they would be doing in PvP from fixing just this one ability playing the way most of them do right now. With CC reduction of Tenacity, it will already be harder to do the prone chains they currently do and fixing Threatening Rush in this manner makes their mobility more counterable, the mark damage more counterable since it wouldn't be as spammable, and requires more ramp up time for GWFs to get the big burst damage.
That means a GWF coun't just hold his Threatening Rush button (or worse sprint cancel it for machinegun damage) waiting to do his prone chain to be effective. The big thing though is that it makes them counterable likie every other class without neutering their damage completely.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
Thanks for the sincerity. There are a few GWFs that continuously were honest and told things as they are in the forums, to the dismay of mostly anybody else playing the class, props to you guys.
Some people have a VERY HARD TIME understanding that a TANK character in MMO PVP should NOT push huge amount of damage, while also having A LOT of survivability. There must be tradeoffs.
Right now, at highest PvP levels, GWFs are both extremely good tanks, and very potent damage dealers that can destroy a squishy in a single rotation, after they just casually and passively deflected half of squishy attacks and took greatly reduced damage from mostly anything.
Balanced?
So people insist yes.
Combine that with fixing threatening rush, and I think GWFs would fall in a decent place amongst the other classes. Even Sentinels would still have potentially high burst, but it would be counterable by good players just like TRs, GFs, and CWs get countered. They wouldn't have the crazy DPS while using a mobility move anymore, and thus could be countered by mobility. Something has to give, and I think it should be mobility and the damage ramp up slowed down. But they need some threat, or they are just a pin cushion for everyone to beat on with little fear.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
GWFs are MORE than fine. Stop worrying they are the best class in pvp STILL. In Fact they need a nerf! Here is why:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?593531-PTR-Tenacity-testing-on-GWF
Here is proof.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-danZ5aY40
If GWFs (like myself) want damage, it should be at a loss of tankiness. So far the GWF gets the best of all worlds.
1) ULTRA tanky
2) Amazing burst damage
3) Good CC
4) Amazing Anti-CC
So whats the downside of the class? Cant think of one.... Versus EVERY other class has downsides.
GF:
Pros - Ultra Tanky (with PVP gear for more block meter). Good CC/prones
Cons - Low damage, low mobility, no CC resist
CWs:
Pros - High damage, Decent control
Cons - Squishy, no CC resist
TRs:
Pros - High damage, can build for "perma stealth"
Cons - No CC, squishy when caught.
Need I go on?
Now there ARE things that should be fixed, like the perma build a tad. But overall the GWF is just too powerful right now.
Pre Mod 2, Sents had low damage but high survivability. This was due to lack of itemization for needed stats (regen) and lack of damage feats. Mod 2 gave artifacts, opening up more gear combos, and also IV path gave a massive damage boost with threat rush.
So pick which aspect GWF should give up...
damage? CC immunity? Tankiness?
Personally I would like to see the GWF be more the "jack of all trades" so its decent tankiness, decent damage, etc... But right now it does everything.
Not trying to get all defensive, but in my post I stated that "The purpose of this post is not just so that I can learn more about what this new PvP system has in store for the future of GWFs, but for other GWF’s and players that don’t know about this new PvP system." I did mention several times that I currently have no access at this moment to the test server as well.
My perspective of this post was a "GWF that has no idea whats going to happen to the GWF and if this patch was going to be mainly a nerf to the class for PvP", all I did was express my (maybe others) concerns. If I could test the GWF out, I would have done that already. Thanks for your post /feedback
P.S. THANK YOU ALL for your feedback/comments other then the sarcastic comments :P. Feel free to give more feedback/comments. Have a good day:cool:.
It would be nice to actually have a way to test PvP stuff. Unfortunately, unless you go there with a Group of friends, it's hard to even find a PvP match on preview.
BTW, as i suggested in other threads:
now that regeneration during combat is significally reduced, it could be a good move to switch ArP to STR and DoT resistance to CON. This way, one of the reasons (the main reason if you ask me) of the "best of both worlds" issue, will be gone. You go STR, you get a true damage buff. You go CON, you get a good defensive buff, but at the cost of less DPS.
Also, again, changing determination gain from X amount of HP lost, to X% of total HP lost. This way, no matter how much HP you have, Unstoppable works the same for every build.
These 2 changes, along with healing depression applied to regeneration/ life steal/ potions/ artifacts, would be enough.
Unstoppable temp HP nerfed again, restoring strike nerfed, exc..., is just not needed. It just makes destroyer/ DPS builds even less viable and restoring strike obsolete in PvP.
It's not causing panic. To be honest, as i stated in the previous posts, considering all the changes, it does not seem like there's one class that got nerfed "more". To speak frankly, i read more panicking posts from Trs/ CWs afraid of losing their DPS and CC, then from GWFs afraid of losing their tankyness/ self-healing capability.
I keep reading GWFs are "OP", yet i still see good CWs/TRs/HRs being able to focus them correctly and take them down.
Also, everyone assume that GWF= full tank. As a result, for example, in the same match i got:
- one guy trolling me ("weak GWF" cause my hybrid could not be immortal in a 3v1 fight
- the same guy writing "nerf this ****" when i got him and burned him down in 1 rotation
From my experience, in PUGs, GWFs are as strong as the enemies allow them to be, if gear is on the same level.
In some fights i can go unstoppable 20 times cause the enemy team swarm on me with at-wills, feeding by determination. In other fights, i struggle to survive cause the enemy can focus me, prone me, root me, cc me the right way and my HP drop very fast.
I myself, as a hybrid, when fighting a GWF tank never, ever use at-wills when he's normal and standing. Mark, takedown, mark, frontline, mark, IBS. He goes unstoppable, spam at will to reduce regeneration through damage and deep gash. He's out of unstoppable, i wait and then prone-focus DPS again. The problem is when my team mates keep swarming the GWF with at-wills, turining him big and red in no time.
I'm not saying there's not an issue with the current GWF.
Just not as big as people seem to believe. My opinion, of course.
This is something i noticed on live too. Some TRs just try and facetank you directly. Now, if they were made to facetank, they would be GWFs and not TRs. Also, i see many TRs/ CWs using their dodge/ teleport just as a "move away" special move. Then they complain cause after 3 telports/ dodges, they've nowhere to run.
Now, again: there's a reason if their dodge/ teleport move has immunity to cc and invulnerability, i think. And there's a reason if GWF most powerful source of DPS (IBS) requires the enemy to be proned to connect, being a very, very slow move. And again, my idea is: those dodge/ teleport moves are also meant to be used to nullify the GWF prones, preventing the to actually hit you with their encounters. Is it a 100% sure move? No. But our prone isn't a 100% sure move either. It is, and should be, all about changing the pattern of your dodges/ prones to fool your enemy. But most Cws and TRs, instead, just use them in such a predictable way, that making them waste these moves is too **** easy.
Worst CWs are the ones that change their pattern of movement. The ones that one time teleport as soon as you reach them, the next time wait few seconds just walking away, and so on. This way you never know when to use your takedown/ frontline. They are not sure either about when you're going to try and prone them. Which, if you ask me, is fair.
CD on threat rush is ok, anyway. Right now it feels very cheap to have a spammable gap-closer that can also apply a mark debuff, activating a feat and also daealing good damage with a chance of crit and consequent deep gash DoT.
Just hope it will help CWs/ TRs to get smart and actually start using their dodge immunity correctly.
- GWF takedown ang FLS anims are very short and if you "dodge" them successfully on your screen, you get rubberbanded back into prone
- IBS? 12-17K HP gone? This leaves a normal 22-25K HP CW dead cause it's the last one in rotation, and a PvP CW with 30K+ HP almost dead as well, you can get them afterwards with some rushes.
So yeah. CW cannot just stay there and eat at wills, they have to move away. Count to 3, start rotation, CW dead, pure skill.
Does CW wins some duels? Yeah... against badly outgeared GWFs or guys that just don't know what to do in PvP.
I have seen the Str/Con suggestion and it is an unnecessary change. No other ability in the game works like that. No one complained about ArPen on Con before Mod 2 because GWF damage was weak or they were squishy. The problem is that Sentinels have the highest practical, applicable PvP damage over Instigator and Destroyer. You go Sentinel, you get more survival and more applicable burst damage than the other trees. That and Threatening Rush.
The other issue is your experience as a Hybrid. I am assuming Destroyer or Instigator in Sentinel type pvp gear right? A sub-par spec gives you a different perspective. Trust me, as a Sentinel I most likely do more damage than you and am more survivable. Powerful Challenge+SotS+Deep Gash. You can't get those as a Destroyer or Instigator all together.
I have faced some really, really good players in pre-mades and pugs and have not ran into anybody that bursts me down fast enough between Unstoppables that I need to worry 1v1. There are those that have worked me down to beat me, but it took them a long while despite the fact that I have a ton of offensive stats. The thing is, any class will go down to well coordinated directed focus fire, I don't care how good you are.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
The devs should tweak it such that after every Unstoppable deactivation, implement a set cooldown (5-10s) before it can be activated again, to at least have some form of balance.
Why is it laughable? Are not rogues so reliant on their stealth? So they can Regenerate their health back. Yes it has a set cool down, but they have gear, feats, and powers that gives them more stealth, a majority of their powers rely on stealth (more effectiveness). Of course this is just an example and my opinion. I understand the idea of a set cooldown time, but GWF's get pillowfisted, it's not like they can regain Unstoppable while in Unstoppable. I don't see how a class being reliant on their main mechanic is laughable. Anyways, wasn't trying to be harsh or anything. Just stating my opinion :P. Thanks for the post.
I understand your point but,
Stealth can at least be countered by some way such as GWF's Roar, Lantern of Revelation and others.
On the other hand, Unstoppable gives bonus Temporary HP, CC Immunity and Damage Reduction, and it gets even worse when Regeneration and Unstoppable Recovery from Sentinel feats get involved, and it's all spammable just by getting attacked?
Just lol.
That power needs to get adjusted properly...way too OP
- You know, you don't have to stand still if you do not teleport. Can move away/ repel/ bunnyhop. Sure strike needs the GWF to stand almost still. If you move, the GWF has, most of the time if you have decent mobility, to stop the at-will and run at you
- rubberbanding is there for GWFs/ melees too. Even more, for a melee class. For example, you can FLS or takedown on a target, just to have the lag move it away untouched. I didn't say you have to immune dodge the exact second you see the animation. I said people must stop being predictable. If i FLS/ takedown Always as soon as i rach you, you will know you just have to teleport right away when i reach you. It does not mean your teleport immunity is OP. It means i'm a nab who's being predictable. Same way, if you teleport Always as soon as i reach you, you're being predictable, and i just have to count to 3 to prone you. If you teleport right away one time, after a few seconds the second time, and change the pattern of your teleports, it's an equal chance for you to dodge at the right moment, and an equal chance for me to fail my FLS/ takedown.
- IBS hits IF the GWF manages to prone you. Now, by the time i can use my IBS, you already unloaded all your encounters, debuffed me and sometimes even used your daily + some at will spam. When i reach you, if you're not being predictable with your teleports, i don't really know when to prone you, cause i don't know when you will teleport. I wait your teleports, your cooldowns get shorter and you'll be able to cc me again soon. I try to prone, there's an equal chance i either catch you or miss the prone= 19 seconds CD for FLS, 12 seconds for takedown if i crush it on your immunity. During this time, you already used your encounters and your cooldowns are ending, while i have yet to use my IBS.
CWs usually suck cause they teleport right away, with a very predictable regual pattern. The few CWs i meet who can change their direction and time of the teleports, usually manage to avoid being proned for much longer. Also, i see very few CWs using repel.
CWs can win also against non-tank builds. The issue with tank builds is that they can tank too much/ regenerate too much. Other than that, how prone and teleport works, if used correctly, is just a matter of outthinking the opponent and luck. If you're being predictable, be it a CW, a TR or a GWF, a good enemy can take you down easily.
To me, a GWF "who does not know what to do in PvP" is the type that wastes his prones using them in a very predictable way. If i were to use my prones Always as soon as i reach a CW, i would crush them on their teleport immunity all the time.
Unstoppable is "spammable" only if the nab enemy team spam weak at-wills in the GWF indiscriminately, feeding his determination.
I never at-will a GWF out of unstoppable. Always prone him, unload encounters for spike damage, spam at-wills/ DoT WHEN HE IS IN UNSTOPPABLE (aka, when he does not gain determination from damage), sprint away, avoid, wait for cooldowns to be over, prone again and spike damage with encounters again, Repeat.
Would i just spam my at wills randomly, i would make him stronger.
You guys have to realize that Unstoppable is spammable only if you DPS the GWF the wrong way (aka, like any other class).
Then you come complaining on the forums cause "how comes GWFs can spam Unstoppable?". Answer: cause you're allwing them to do that.
Unstoppable is OP only on very high HP builds (wrote in previous posts what should be changed for that). Other than that, it's working the way it should, and people should learn how to properly deal with it.
I read some helpful tips, but the thing that surprises me the most is your bit of attacking a GWF (preferably with at-wills, so your encounters are ready when he's out of Unstoppable) in Unstoppable. With CW as my first class, I read somewhere that I shouldn't attack a GWF in Unstoppable at all. I don't remember anymore what the reasoning was, but maybe I just understood it wrong, lol.
Anyways, thanks for this tip.
NOT ALL CLASSES HAVE PRONES
oh and btw, duration of prone is cut down significantly on the PTR. So have fun trying to "prone and unload" on a GWF on the PTR, also have fun trying to "unload" when a Sent OUT of unstoppable has around 70% DR, oh and also try doing that with 20% less crit damage who can turn around and still IBS crit you for 10k+ without batting an eye...
Its not about "At will spam" or "L2P" its the fact that a Sent, who has incredible high HP (like 38k+) who has incredibly high DR (over 60% up to 70%) on the PTR who cannot be kited around, who not only has sprint, but ranged prones AND an unlimited lunge...
Anyone who says GWFs are "fine" (aka steamroller) I would LOVE to see you get on a CW and go against a my GWF. it just laughable when players say things like
"learn to time your damage".
Is that true? sure its true! But does that address anything about the OPness of the GWF right now? Not at all....
Players just dont want getting their own class nerfed, thats the issue honestly. Which is why I post about GWFs because I have one and show videos all the time about why its <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> OP. You can see my last PTR test here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-danZ5aY40
Yeah sure.
Too bad you guys anim-cancel SPAM Threatening Rush.
Honestly, the cooldown on TR is short enough to not even need to rely on animation cancelling to fight other classes. Animation cancelling simply turns an already hard hitting at will into a machinegun. And you can do it without losing an ounce of stamina, which is ridiculous.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
To be honest, you guys should keep doing it for as long as it will be possible.
It's pretty frightening as a CW to have one of the good GWFs in the game, fully equipped and with that nice shiny perfect vorpal sword - always sticking to you like glue. And you obviously have to stop as a CW, and cast long animation spells, EF, Shard etc. and taking big damage each time is quite guaranteed.
As things are now, I view (good) GWFs like elite shocktroops in a war. You send them to placate the enemy, crush their souls, so they have no longer a desire to wage war on you :P One ubersoldier that takes with him 5 enemies before dying.
And I said it quite a few times before, I honestly don't think GWFs should get a nerf. I don't think any of you guys feel this is an unenjoyable playstyle, most GWFs I know have a blast playing this game. All that is needed is to bring the other classes up to par.