the amount of enchantments you need to upgrade one level is the same as before, except now you ALSO need reagents.
This.
No one can pretend that this change has made things simpler.
Also, the alleged "more free space in your inventory" thing. Well now you have your regular enchants, the enchants being refined, the reagents, the stones. It takes more space than before.
If I would have to design the refining system I would have gone this way:
You start with rank 1 or lesser (no more shards at all meaning that lesser enchants would need to drop). Just reduce the effectiveness of lesser a lot so they are aligned with putting rank 1s onto your armor (so basically a very weak effect that won't help you a lot during gameplay but adds some flavor). Meaning: Everyone could just start with a lesser armor enchantment but since you need epic gear to put them on it won't unbalance the game. Maybe some of those enchants (like stats on artifacts) come with certain abilities only in the upgraded versions to balance them out.
If you have an azure enchant you can put ONLY azure enchants into them to level them up (same with armor and weapon - those need to drop more often though even from normal mobs so you would have enough fusing material). The higher the stuff is you put into them the faster you level. At certain points you go up a rank. No wards ever needed at all, the XP gaps just widens from one rank to the next (like it is with crafting).
At a certain point (the high end enchants) you would need a certain reagent to rank them up. Only ONE type of reagent. Maybe from 7-8 one of them, from 8-9 two of them and from 9-10 three of them. Also from lesser to normal one, from normal to greater two and from greater to perfect three. But no wards ever. That would be for the elite players in the end. Those reagents would drop in epics.
That would be it. I would not have used any "refinement points" items in this game like pearls and stuff (just confuses people). I would not start with "use 4 shards to refine" and I would not use any other high end enchant that is needed to rank up. A pure and simple method. Low level players could easily go to 7 or use lesser enchants (like you could do before easily) by just playing the game and getting enchants to throw into the pools while elite players would need to grind for their reagents that might come with slow drop chances.
And if they want to make money out of this system, just add ZEN store "lucky stones" which would work like this: Use them (consumables) and the next x minutes you have a higher chance on the drop rates of reagents while fighting mobs or something similar.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited December 2013
Moderator Notice: . . . . . There is no need to attack another player's opinion with a disrespectful attitude, whether they are a Moderator or not. Advice was given by Mel, that is all. Melodwhyr never said Leadership was "mandatory" but merely gave his opinions to the topic and suggestions. To turn it around and use such a helpful post as a means to argue, will not be tolerated. Please do find a more civil approach to discuss this topic and discussion.
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veripellisMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 13Arc User
edited December 2013
Some of the changes to refinement are good they solved the issues many players complained about. The removal cost; being able to upgrade while slotted. But over all it does not save space, even if you just keep feeding founds into the enchants you already have slotted in your epic armor. The addition of the reagents for the refining took that added space away. Plus it takes more to upgrade...It is just something else to grind for or buy with Zen/AD.... Maybe that was the real point, something else for us diehards with a dozen characters to pay for... Plus for new players it just complicated things. What happened to this being a D&D game? Why not just make it a 20 sided roll? You feed your enchant to the fill then you roll the dice... 1 you critical fail and your enchantment totally breaks. 20 you critical achieve and it makes 2 of the new enchantment. 2 - 10 it fails and you have to feed it again, 11 - 19 it works? Make it simple, keep it D&D! To be honest, the mess of a refinement system totally destroyed my excitement for mod2... I had to walk away from the game for a few days...
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isakongmingMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 2Arc User
edited December 2013
AD doesn't come easy for them. Stating to use leadership, something that doesn't produce AD until level 4 and even then its 100 per 2 hours (no, new players do not have Heroes to bring the time down). Many players do not play hardcore fulltime 40 hours per week to amass maximum AD every day. Praying brings very little AD at low levels and they mostly don't pray more than once a day. Dailies is something most new players wont do everyday because they are learning and still have a games full content to play through, dailies are done by end gamers and those that have been playing a long time.
Then when you toss in that they were able to upgrade their low level enchantments for free, but now have a cost while looking at all the other things they still need, things that everyone else have already gotten...it adds up and they are suddenly not able to partake in even more of the game.
Most people are not asking for the system to be removed and brought back to the way it was. Many are actually trying to look beyond what we personally are experiencing, which is saving AD at end game with this new system, and are trying to help the new players that ARE having issues and we know they are because we have heard it from our own friends. The lowest level enchants should not cost anything because the only people that are going to try to upgrade a 1 to a 2 or 2 to a 3 are new players who cant afford it because they are not the AD making machines the rest of us are. No amount of "oh but you can find them in nodes or from leadership" changes the fact that most new players CANT farm nodes, they don't have the money for kits nor the leadership skill to get chest that give kits, which is another end gamers blindness to what its like as a new player.
And no, being able to make SOME AD at low levels does not justify it because you are then forcing everyone to use Leadership to be able to enchant, people that may not even have the time to raise leadership quickly. Plus, they are two separate systems and the cost should not be there for those just getting into the game. Its a wall... can we NOT turn this game into what STO was turned into shortly after release please? I DONT WANT TO SEE THE POPULATION DROP BECAUSE OF WALLS BEING PUT UP. Do you?
Open your eyes. Small changes need to be made to the new system for newer players. And do note the title under my name, I have been here a long time and I am at end game,I benefit nothingfrom asking for this other than perhaps seeing more new people stick around.
they don't have the money for kits nor the leadership skill to get chest that give kits
What is this I don't even
Seriously? I've never, ever been "unable to afford skill kits". Those things are ridiculously cheap, and there is very little to spend gold on otherwise (especially with the ludicrously high potion drop-rate). Hell, the kits themselves drop pretty frequently.
I'm honestly not sure anyone is actually suffering from these problems you're 'defending' them from.
Sure I personally don't have this issue, I am sitting on a ton of AD, but then again I have been playing a long time. New players however are hit with an AD wall very quickly now and not only have a great deal the need it for but this update just added a ton more. It isn't just the small changes to refinement that added to their AD costs, the new bonuses on companions now makes the game look like you MUST buy AD to be able to take part in end game.
Many groups will not touch you if you don't have the proper companion, the stone companion is the single most demanded companion to have if you want in the group and that costs 3000 ZEN. The idea of bonuses is GREAT but it turns the game upside down in ways such as this. Now it is required that you buy a shop item to get into end game and this is only the first week of the update.
Seriously? I've never, ever been "unable to afford skill kits". Those things are ridiculously cheap, and there is very little to spend gold on otherwise (especially with the ludicrously high potion drop-rate). Hell, the kits themselves drop pretty frequently. I'm honestly not sure anyone is actually suffering from these problems you're 'defending' them from.
Kits are 1s 50c each, newer players cannot afford to buy them in large quantites and no, they don't drop as fast as you can use them. Gold does not come easily until end game and don't say it doesn't because before this patch Gold was being traded at high value. Not only that but the person you were replying to stated "farm nodes" which is what you have to do to get just a few reagents to refine with. In order to farm nodes you need a large quantity of every kit, something no new player has access to.
The biggest issue I am seeing here is that too many people forgot what it is like as a new player, the people some are trying to defend here.
Personally I love the new system, but I am at end game so I am not being hit by this new wall that is changing what the game looks like. Please for the love of God don't turn this into a game that looks like P2W to new people because that's going to cut down on the amount of people that will keep playing.
The poster means (I think) people who've just started and can't afford kits at very low levels. I suppose that's true to a degree, but even then, they can access the nodes that are in their class skill; e.g., GWF's opening dungeoneering nodes, clerics opening religion nodes. IMO, that's enough to get started. Also, at those really low levels, there's not a lot of gear available with slots; and if one has that gear, I think the price of buying or luck for finding a few rank 1 or 2 enchants won't be an issue.
(I haven't done the math, so I don't know if the amount of enchantments you need to upgrade one level is the same as before)
this computation is made using the same type of enchant (means x2 RP) if you will use other type of enchants you will need twice the number needed
it takes 3 of the same item to upgrade from r1 to r2.
it takes 3 of the same item to upgrade from r2 to r3.
it takes 3 of the same item to upgrade from r3 to r4.
it takes 4 of the same item to upgrade from r4 to r5.
it takes 4 of the same item to upgrade from r5 to r6.
it takes 4 of the same item to upgrade from r6 to r7.
it takes 6 of the same item to upgrade from r7 to r8.
it takes 6 of the same item to upgrade from r8 to r9.
it takes 6 of the same item to upgrade from r9 to r10.
Don't forget that Wards are now bound items which means if you didn't already have a stack, it will take longer to get them.
. . . . . . Only the ones you get out of the Coffers of Wondrous Augmentation (7-day prayer reward) are Bound to Account. You can still mail them freely to your alts on the same account. The only thing this change really affected were players with multiple "prayer" accounts with the sole purpose to farm the Coffers for Wards. Zen and Tarmalene wards are still unbound.
this computation is made using the same type of enchant (means x2 RP) if you will use other type of enchants you will need twice the number needed
it takes 3 of the same item to upgrade from r1 to r2.
it takes 3 of the same item to upgrade from r2 to r3.
it takes 3 of the same item to upgrade from r3 to r4.
it takes 4 of the same item to upgrade from r4 to r5.
it takes 4 of the same item to upgrade from r5 to r6.
it takes 4 of the same item to upgrade from r6 to r7.
it takes 6 of the same item to upgrade from r7 to r8.
it takes 6 of the same item to upgrade from r8 to r9.
it takes 6 of the same item to upgrade from r9 to r10.
+marks
= more expensive than before
actually, since this is in reference to the required RP and not to the reagents themselves:
it takes 5 of the same item to upgrade from r7 to r8.
it takes 5 of the same item to upgrade from r8 to r9.
it takes 5 of the same item to upgrade from r9 to r10.
the RP requirement for a rank 8 upgrade is 34560 RP.
rank 7 of the same type RP value: 8640 RP
8640x4 = 34560 RP + 1 rank 7 as the target item. = 5 items of the same type
again, this does not include the reagents.
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
. . . . . . Only the ones you get out of the Coffers of Wondrous Augmentation (7-day prayer reward) are Bound to Account. You can still mail them freely to your alts on the same account. The only thing this change really affected were players with multiple "prayer" accounts with the sole purpose to farm the Coffers for Wards. Zen and Tarmalene wards are still unbound.
It affects them in the sense that they cannot sell the wards on the AH, but they can still use the wards from their prayerbot army themselves or use them to make high-level items to sell...or, do items made with bound wards actually become bound themselves? That would be kind-of neat....
So its been a week and i've yet to upgrade any runes because nothing drops. Does Cryptic expect us to spend AD to upgrade an r4 into an r5 now? As it stands, this system just makes the rich richer and the poor poorer.
Old system: 64 r7 needed to get to a r10.
New system: 8 r7 needed to get to a r10.
Difference: 56 r7.
For weapon / armor enchants, that's an automatic 5,600,000 AD reduction in price (based on the old economy where caol ward = ~100k AD). Overall, I think the count comes down from 85 wards to 15. So yes, things may be a bit pricier at the lower levels, but the prices at the high end MORE than make up for it IMO.
"But I could get my wards for free by invoking!" you say? Well, you can get your refining marks for free by playing. So go play and get them, and accept that the cost curve has been dramatically smoothed out.
So its been a week and i've yet to upgrade any runes because nothing drops. Does Cryptic expect us to spend AD to upgrade an r4 into an r5 now? As it stands, this system just makes the rich richer and the poor poorer.
If you're still running with r4 as your highest, then I'd say yes, they do either expect you to spend the 25k or find a drop. If you're in higher than r4, you should just be feeding your slotted higher level stuff to the upgrade point.
So yes, things may be a bit pricier at the lower levels, but the prices at the high end MORE than make up for it IMO.
"But I could get my wards for free by invoking!" you say? Well, you can get your refining marks for free by playing. So go play and get them, and accept that the cost curve has been dramatically smoothed out.
If you're still running with r4 as your highest, then I'd say yes, they do either expect you to spend the 25k or find a drop. If you're in higher than r4, you should just be feeding your slotted higher level stuff to the upgrade point.
So basically what you are saying comes down to that the established players will greatly benefit and the newer ones are stuffed...
Hint. Use rank 4s rank 5s and lesser tranqs to upgrade. Cost me 2.8mil to make a rank 10 silv
U R 2 E Z- SENT IV GWF undefeated 16k GS
FaceRoller- regen recovery TR (put on the shelf for now) 14k GS
Supreme CHAOS - IV GF (put on the shelf for now) 16k GS
White Khalifa- tene/hp/regen CW (retired) 11k GS (tene)
Death From Above- TANK ranger 16kGS
(all halfling everything)
. . . . . . Only the ones you get out of the Coffers of Wondrous Augmentation (7-day prayer reward) are Bound to Account. You can still mail them freely to your alts on the same account. The only thing this change really affected were players with multiple "prayer" accounts with the sole purpose to farm the Coffers for Wards. Zen and Tarmalene wards are still unbound.
I have one single account and could care less about high level enhancements because I do not raid end game instances, I don't need the wards, cant sell them to other players, cant sell them to a vendor and I CANT EVE DISCARD THEM!
So if you don't want/can't use the bound wards, don't take the 7 day coffers, take one of the lower rewards. Or find a use for them (upgrading enchantments to sell to others.)
The PWI info-fox formerly known as Mayfly - Dreamweaver
hmm... lower marks of potency for beginning players... first of all they give you 10 free minor marks of potency. those cost 25 AD. you won't see this particular quest until you're level 20 anyway and by then you'll have had the ability to invoke for 9 levels. you get rough AD every time you invoke. up to 2k AD for free PER DAY. your first four ranks needs either minor marks or lesser marks. both which drop from skill nodes. lesser marks cost 500 AD. at level 10 you can start professions/leadership and gain a little AD from there. let's recap:
why item progression is NOT off the map for beginning players:
at level 10, you can start professions/leadership and earn rough AD
invoking starts at level 11 where you can earn up to 2k of rough AD per day
you get 10 free minor marks of potency at level 20
minor marks of potency cost 25AD from the wondrous bazaar
lesser marks of potency cost 500AD from the wondrous bazaar
both of the above drop marks drop from skill nodes
i don't understand the difficulty of grasping this other than it's something new and it's change and therefore people are going to naturally buck it. it is more complex than the fusion system but the fusion system was not working.
and the learning curve isn't difficult: you have a container. you fill it up. you have the option to fill this container with many different items. once it is full, you take the container and this token and you trade it for a bigger container. there is a possibility that the transaction will fail, but you have the option of using a ward to prevent the loss of your token(s).
driving fear and doubt into something can do two things. it can make people oppose it without even looking at it first and therefore it can be a great marketing tool. it also can have the opposite effect by bringing an unknown into focus. i'm definitely cheering for the latter.
I'm a new player, from STEAM, I'm also someone who abandoned STO very early in my free 60 days there before it went F2P (and never looked back). I spent probably an hour making my character last night and haven't even left the beach at the very start yet.
Reading your description of this system is making me reconsider even bothering with this "game". Trade filling a container for pushing a boulder up a hill and you want people to pay to be Sisyphus.
As I said above, I'm a totally new player so I don't even know what these marks are used for, beyond some kind of "item progression" but it certainly sounds like a terrible design with an artificial money sink thrown in. If I wanted a brutal grind I'd be working at work instead of typing this.
actually, since this is in reference to the required RP and not to the reagents themselves:
it takes 5 of the same item to upgrade from r7 to r8.
it takes 5 of the same item to upgrade from r8 to r9.
it takes 5 of the same item to upgrade from r9 to r10.
the RP requirement for a rank 8 upgrade is 34560 RP.
rank 7 of the same type RP value: 8640 RP
8640x4 = 34560 RP + 1 rank 7 as the target item. = 5 items of the same type
again, this does not include the reagents.
how many rank 7 do you need to make r8? it is 6
and again you need extra rank7 reagent for 7-10 (r1-7 doesnt need extra enchant for reagent, r7-10 is diff)
for those who still believes that the new system is cheaper and uses less gem try upgrading rank7-8
count how many gems you use to refine the gem being upgraded and another r7 for reagent
how many rank 7 do you need to make r8? it is 6
and again you need extra rank7 reagent for 7-10 (r1-7 doesnt need extra enchant for reagent, r7-10 is diff)
for those who still believes that the new system is cheaper and uses less gem try upgrading rank7-8
count how many gems you use to refine the gem being upgraded and another r7 for reagent
if you were going to use a r7 enchant for RP, but i seriously doubt anyone is going to upgrade an enchant up to rank 7 for the purpose of feeding it into another rank 7. the purpose of that illustration was simplicity. but i wouldn't recommend anyone upgrade an enchantment to use for RP purposes. you should never upgrade an item that you plan on using for refinement points. it's a waste of reagents, wards and time.
Old system: 64 r7 needed to get to a r10.
New system: 8 r7 needed to get to a r10.
Difference: 56 r7.
For weapon / armor enchants, that's an automatic 5,600,000 AD reduction in price (based on the old economy where caol ward = ~100k AD). Overall, I think the count comes down from 85 wards to 15. So yes, things may be a bit pricier at the lower levels, but the prices at the high end MORE than make up for it IMO.
"But I could get my wards for free by invoking!" you say? Well, you can get your refining marks for free by playing. So go play and get them, and accept that the cost curve has been dramatically smoothed out.
lots of players were blinded by the new system
old
you dont need to refine enchants
new = need to refine first before you can upgrade it
upgrading r7-r8
you need to feed 1r7 first
you need 4pcs same enchant r7 to the item that youre upgrading
and another 1 for reagent
making it 6pcs
old = 4pcs
new = 6pcs
@ melodywhr
using diff rank enchants will give lower RP ( means more enchants needed to feed )
using another type of enchant wont give bonus ( again more enchants needed )
try upgrading r7 to r8 again then tell me how many RP/enchants did you use to upgrade it to r8
No, you do notneed 6, or even 5, rank 7 gems of the same type to make rank 8, you only need 2, one of which you fill up with whatever trash enchantments you pick up (preferably, but not necessarily, of the same type), the other is consumed as reagent during upgrade.
The only reasons to use gems of the same rank as you're upgrading as feedstock is if you're trying to upgrade right now with the fewest mouse clicks possible... in which case you're paying for the time savings, not the upgrade... or if the same rank gems give more RP per AD spent than lower level gems... but again, if you're buying the gems, you're paying for the time savings, not the upgrade, as you could have gathered the same RP over time grinding mobs in zone of your choice/opening leadership boxes/looting skill nodes.
The PWI info-fox formerly known as Mayfly - Dreamweaver
I'm a new player, from STEAM, I'm also someone who abandoned STO very early in my free 60 days there before it went F2P (and never looked back). I spent probably an hour making my character last night and haven't even left the beach at the very start yet.
Reading your description of this system is making me reconsider even bothering with this "game". Trade filling a container for pushing a boulder up a hill and you want people to pay to be Sisyphus.
As I said above, I'm a totally new player so I don't even know what these marks are used for, beyond some kind of "item progression" but it certainly sounds like a terrible design with an artificial money sink thrown in. If I wanted a brutal grind I'd be working at work instead of typing this.
i have no point of reference as far as STO is concerned. i've never played it.
and i don't know what your preferences are either... my description of the refinement system has very little bearing on the playability of the game itself. leveling up a character to 60, you will go through a lot of different gear on your way there. and prior to the new module, lots of people wouldn't even socket their gear with enchants/runestones until end-game.
so... i can't really tell you whether or not it's the game for you. it'll cost you nothing to try it out.
other then the Blue refine components been harder to get then the purple ones (and costing about 250k AD on the AH) I like the new system it's more good then bad IMO. I like upgrading with out unslotting and I really like switching out Enchants without spending a ton of AD. I just wish they would now adjust the amount of AD to transmute items for cosmetic reasons - switching the looks of stuff shouldn't cost over 50,000 AD (again IMO). Overall I'm liking the new system despite some minor kinks. Hopefully the skill nodes and leadership stuff will result in something other then the very lowest refinement stuff as well as so far I've gotten just whites and a couple of greens despite playing about 40-50 hours since mod 2 launch all in the dread area.
No, you do notneed 6, or even 5, rank 7 gems of the same type to make rank 8, you only need 2, one of which you fill up with whatever trash enchantments you pick up (preferably, but not necessarily, of the same type), the other is consumed as reagent during upgrade.
The only reasons to use gems of the same rank as you're upgrading as feedstock is if you're trying to upgrade right now with the fewest mouse clicks possible... in which case you're paying for the time savings, not the upgrade... or if the same rank gems give more RP per AD spent than lower level gems... but again, if you're buying the gems, you're paying for the time savings, not the upgrade, as you could have gathered the same RP over time grinding mobs in zone of your choice/opening leadership boxes/looting skill nodes.
you cant upgrade it without refining it
lesser gems used? no
lesser coal wards? = yes (but they add marks to suck AD from players)
using lower ranks or diff type enchants gives lower RP higher ranks gives higher RP
if you convert r7 to lower rank r5 for ex
you need 8pcs r5 same type to fill r7 RP
But to refine a r7, how many r7 enchants do you need?
2.
You can use r1 and r2 gems to fill their respective rp pools to get there. (Yes, it will take a while, but you *can* do it). It's also cheaper, as you're not spending AD on refining marks.
But you don't need same level gems to refine, just sufficient refining points to fill up its refinement pool, which can come from any enchantment, runestone, shard or refining stone. As melodywhir said upthread, using high level gems (which have already been refined, or fused under the old system, as I've never seen anything above a rank 5 gotten awarded without fusing/refining, and then only from some dungeon/skirmish chests.
Lesser gems used? Absolutely yes, just takes bunches, but rank 4s are plentiful as drops in level 60 zones.
Lesser coal wards? What the heck are those? There are coalescent wards, and preservation wards, there are no "lesser coal wards".
The PWI info-fox formerly known as Mayfly - Dreamweaver
Comments
This.
No one can pretend that this change has made things simpler.
Also, the alleged "more free space in your inventory" thing. Well now you have your regular enchants, the enchants being refined, the reagents, the stones. It takes more space than before.
You start with rank 1 or lesser (no more shards at all meaning that lesser enchants would need to drop). Just reduce the effectiveness of lesser a lot so they are aligned with putting rank 1s onto your armor (so basically a very weak effect that won't help you a lot during gameplay but adds some flavor). Meaning: Everyone could just start with a lesser armor enchantment but since you need epic gear to put them on it won't unbalance the game. Maybe some of those enchants (like stats on artifacts) come with certain abilities only in the upgraded versions to balance them out.
If you have an azure enchant you can put ONLY azure enchants into them to level them up (same with armor and weapon - those need to drop more often though even from normal mobs so you would have enough fusing material). The higher the stuff is you put into them the faster you level. At certain points you go up a rank. No wards ever needed at all, the XP gaps just widens from one rank to the next (like it is with crafting).
At a certain point (the high end enchants) you would need a certain reagent to rank them up. Only ONE type of reagent. Maybe from 7-8 one of them, from 8-9 two of them and from 9-10 three of them. Also from lesser to normal one, from normal to greater two and from greater to perfect three. But no wards ever. That would be for the elite players in the end. Those reagents would drop in epics.
That would be it. I would not have used any "refinement points" items in this game like pearls and stuff (just confuses people). I would not start with "use 4 shards to refine" and I would not use any other high end enchant that is needed to rank up. A pure and simple method. Low level players could easily go to 7 or use lesser enchants (like you could do before easily) by just playing the game and getting enchants to throw into the pools while elite players would need to grind for their reagents that might come with slow drop chances.
And if they want to make money out of this system, just add ZEN store "lucky stones" which would work like this: Use them (consumables) and the next x minutes you have a higher chance on the drop rates of reagents while fighting mobs or something similar.
. . . . . There is no need to attack another player's opinion with a disrespectful attitude, whether they are a Moderator or not. Advice was given by Mel, that is all. Melodwhyr never said Leadership was "mandatory" but merely gave his opinions to the topic and suggestions. To turn it around and use such a helpful post as a means to argue, will not be tolerated. Please do find a more civil approach to discuss this topic and discussion.
. . . . . Please remember, Moderators ARE players, just like everyone else with the only difference is that they help to Moderate the Forums on their own time... Volunteer time. Moderators play the game too and all also play new characters all the time.
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Then when you toss in that they were able to upgrade their low level enchantments for free, but now have a cost while looking at all the other things they still need, things that everyone else have already gotten...it adds up and they are suddenly not able to partake in even more of the game.
Most people are not asking for the system to be removed and brought back to the way it was. Many are actually trying to look beyond what we personally are experiencing, which is saving AD at end game with this new system, and are trying to help the new players that ARE having issues and we know they are because we have heard it from our own friends. The lowest level enchants should not cost anything because the only people that are going to try to upgrade a 1 to a 2 or 2 to a 3 are new players who cant afford it because they are not the AD making machines the rest of us are. No amount of "oh but you can find them in nodes or from leadership" changes the fact that most new players CANT farm nodes, they don't have the money for kits nor the leadership skill to get chest that give kits, which is another end gamers blindness to what its like as a new player.
And no, being able to make SOME AD at low levels does not justify it because you are then forcing everyone to use Leadership to be able to enchant, people that may not even have the time to raise leadership quickly. Plus, they are two separate systems and the cost should not be there for those just getting into the game. Its a wall... can we NOT turn this game into what STO was turned into shortly after release please? I DONT WANT TO SEE THE POPULATION DROP BECAUSE OF WALLS BEING PUT UP. Do you?
Open your eyes. Small changes need to be made to the new system for newer players. And do note the title under my name, I have been here a long time and I am at end game,I benefit nothingfrom asking for this other than perhaps seeing more new people stick around.
What is this I don't even
Seriously? I've never, ever been "unable to afford skill kits". Those things are ridiculously cheap, and there is very little to spend gold on otherwise (especially with the ludicrously high potion drop-rate). Hell, the kits themselves drop pretty frequently.
I'm honestly not sure anyone is actually suffering from these problems you're 'defending' them from.
Many groups will not touch you if you don't have the proper companion, the stone companion is the single most demanded companion to have if you want in the group and that costs 3000 ZEN. The idea of bonuses is GREAT but it turns the game upside down in ways such as this. Now it is required that you buy a shop item to get into end game and this is only the first week of the update.
Kits are 1s 50c each, newer players cannot afford to buy them in large quantites and no, they don't drop as fast as you can use them. Gold does not come easily until end game and don't say it doesn't because before this patch Gold was being traded at high value. Not only that but the person you were replying to stated "farm nodes" which is what you have to do to get just a few reagents to refine with. In order to farm nodes you need a large quantity of every kit, something no new player has access to.
The biggest issue I am seeing here is that too many people forgot what it is like as a new player, the people some are trying to defend here.
Personally I love the new system, but I am at end game so I am not being hit by this new wall that is changing what the game looks like. Please for the love of God don't turn this into a game that looks like P2W to new people because that's going to cut down on the amount of people that will keep playing.
this computation is made using the same type of enchant (means x2 RP) if you will use other type of enchants you will need twice the number needed
it takes 3 of the same item to upgrade from r1 to r2.
it takes 3 of the same item to upgrade from r2 to r3.
it takes 3 of the same item to upgrade from r3 to r4.
it takes 4 of the same item to upgrade from r4 to r5.
it takes 4 of the same item to upgrade from r5 to r6.
it takes 4 of the same item to upgrade from r6 to r7.
it takes 6 of the same item to upgrade from r7 to r8.
it takes 6 of the same item to upgrade from r8 to r9.
it takes 6 of the same item to upgrade from r9 to r10.
+marks
= more expensive than before
Don't forget that Wards are now bound items which means if you didn't already have a stack, it will take longer to get them.
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actually, since this is in reference to the required RP and not to the reagents themselves:
it takes 5 of the same item to upgrade from r7 to r8.
it takes 5 of the same item to upgrade from r8 to r9.
it takes 5 of the same item to upgrade from r9 to r10.
the RP requirement for a rank 8 upgrade is 34560 RP.
rank 7 of the same type RP value: 8640 RP
8640x4 = 34560 RP + 1 rank 7 as the target item. = 5 items of the same type
again, this does not include the reagents.
It affects them in the sense that they cannot sell the wards on the AH, but they can still use the wards from their prayerbot army themselves or use them to make high-level items to sell...or, do items made with bound wards actually become bound themselves? That would be kind-of neat....
New system: 8 r7 needed to get to a r10.
Difference: 56 r7.
For weapon / armor enchants, that's an automatic 5,600,000 AD reduction in price (based on the old economy where caol ward = ~100k AD). Overall, I think the count comes down from 85 wards to 15. So yes, things may be a bit pricier at the lower levels, but the prices at the high end MORE than make up for it IMO.
"But I could get my wards for free by invoking!" you say? Well, you can get your refining marks for free by playing. So go play and get them, and accept that the cost curve has been dramatically smoothed out.
If you're still running with r4 as your highest, then I'd say yes, they do either expect you to spend the 25k or find a drop. If you're in higher than r4, you should just be feeding your slotted higher level stuff to the upgrade point.
So basically what you are saying comes down to that the established players will greatly benefit and the newer ones are stuffed...
FaceRoller- regen recovery TR (put on the shelf for now) 14k GS
Supreme CHAOS - IV GF (put on the shelf for now) 16k GS
White Khalifa- tene/hp/regen CW (retired) 11k GS (tene)
Death From Above- TANK ranger 16kGS
(all halfling everything)
Proud rank 6 of: <Enemy Team>
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I have one single account and could care less about high level enhancements because I do not raid end game instances, I don't need the wards, cant sell them to other players, cant sell them to a vendor and I CANT EVE DISCARD THEM!
I'm a new player, from STEAM, I'm also someone who abandoned STO very early in my free 60 days there before it went F2P (and never looked back). I spent probably an hour making my character last night and haven't even left the beach at the very start yet.
Reading your description of this system is making me reconsider even bothering with this "game". Trade filling a container for pushing a boulder up a hill and you want people to pay to be Sisyphus.
As I said above, I'm a totally new player so I don't even know what these marks are used for, beyond some kind of "item progression" but it certainly sounds like a terrible design with an artificial money sink thrown in. If I wanted a brutal grind I'd be working at work instead of typing this.
how many rank 7 do you need to make r8? it is 6
and again you need extra rank7 reagent for 7-10 (r1-7 doesnt need extra enchant for reagent, r7-10 is diff)
for those who still believes that the new system is cheaper and uses less gem try upgrading rank7-8
count how many gems you use to refine the gem being upgraded and another r7 for reagent
if you were going to use a r7 enchant for RP, but i seriously doubt anyone is going to upgrade an enchant up to rank 7 for the purpose of feeding it into another rank 7. the purpose of that illustration was simplicity. but i wouldn't recommend anyone upgrade an enchantment to use for RP purposes. you should never upgrade an item that you plan on using for refinement points. it's a waste of reagents, wards and time.
lots of players were blinded by the new system
old
you dont need to refine enchants
new = need to refine first before you can upgrade it
upgrading r7-r8
you need to feed 1r7 first
you need 4pcs same enchant r7 to the item that youre upgrading
and another 1 for reagent
making it 6pcs
old = 4pcs
new = 6pcs
@ melodywhr
using diff rank enchants will give lower RP ( means more enchants needed to feed )
using another type of enchant wont give bonus ( again more enchants needed )
try upgrading r7 to r8 again then tell me how many RP/enchants did you use to upgrade it to r8
The only reasons to use gems of the same rank as you're upgrading as feedstock is if you're trying to upgrade right now with the fewest mouse clicks possible... in which case you're paying for the time savings, not the upgrade... or if the same rank gems give more RP per AD spent than lower level gems... but again, if you're buying the gems, you're paying for the time savings, not the upgrade, as you could have gathered the same RP over time grinding mobs in zone of your choice/opening leadership boxes/looting skill nodes.
i have no point of reference as far as STO is concerned. i've never played it.
and i don't know what your preferences are either... my description of the refinement system has very little bearing on the playability of the game itself. leveling up a character to 60, you will go through a lot of different gear on your way there. and prior to the new module, lots of people wouldn't even socket their gear with enchants/runestones until end-game.
so... i can't really tell you whether or not it's the game for you. it'll cost you nothing to try it out.
safe travels!
you cant upgrade it without refining it
lesser gems used? no
lesser coal wards? = yes (but they add marks to suck AD from players)
R1 = 5/10
R2 = 15/30
R3 = 45/90
R4 = 135/270
R5 = 540/1080
R6 = 2160/4320
R7 = 4320/8640
R8 = 12960/25920
R9 = 38880/77760
using lower ranks or diff type enchants gives lower RP higher ranks gives higher RP
if you convert r7 to lower rank r5 for ex
you need 8pcs r5 same type to fill r7 RP
2.
You can use r1 and r2 gems to fill their respective rp pools to get there. (Yes, it will take a while, but you *can* do it). It's also cheaper, as you're not spending AD on refining marks.
Lesser gems used? Absolutely yes, just takes bunches, but rank 4s are plentiful as drops in level 60 zones.
Lesser coal wards? What the heck are those? There are coalescent wards, and preservation wards, there are no "lesser coal wards".