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My feedback about the new Refining system

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  • diogene0diogene0 Member Posts: 2,894 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Well the increased costs for lower ranks is absurd (and a rip off). We're now forced to use preservation wards for rank 5 and 6, which is also a major (and very annoying) change. My inventory is now full of lower rank gems i'm forced to feed to feed purple enchantments too. The crapton of new items we have to store for upgrades doesn't make the system more user friendly either. My inventory was filled with <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, now it's filled by new <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Nothing changed, except the increased costs of course. :) It's not a module it's a new cash grab. At least we can trust them for more expensive stuff for module 3.
  • kumalucakumaluca Member Posts: 51 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    I would much rather it back the other way now that I have played for a few days with it.It's just more stuff to spend money on and I was ignorant thinking anything otherwise.There's a few pro's more con's.I'll adjust to the change and find the new system tolerable but i'm not going to look forward to anything or believe things are changing for any other reason than to make more money again,if I continue to play.
  • chocobofarmerchocobofarmer Member Posts: 512 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    This new system is more expensive for 99% of people. Only the 1% of people who have researched it in depth, bought the right items before mod 2, got a better deal with the changes. I see refining point items like black opal in AH at much higher prices than what the wondrous bazaar sells RP for. Flawless sapphire has 6 ad to 1 rp ratio, whereas many refining point items in the AH are at 1:8 or more. Then for those who know, they got refining points at ratio of 2 ad to 1 rp or even better, stocking up on the right items before module 2. The rich get richer and the poor get ripped off.
  • bioshrikebioshrike Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,729 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    My main issue is this: I really only use rank 5 enchants. Under the old system, I would get piles of R4's from leadership tasks, enemies, and the zone events, and simply fuse those whenever I needed them. Yeah, I'd lose an enchant about 40% of the time, (per the success rate), but there was no need for anything else, and my supply of R4's was replenished easily enough. So far, enemies aren't dropping the reagents with the same regularity, so it's kind of a setback for me. I haven't explored the refining system passed R5 thus far, so I can't say for sure if the new system is better. I'm happy with the ranger so far, and I'm hoping that with play I'll accumulate enough reagents to fuel my future needs...
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  • wildfire412001wildfire412001 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 114 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2013

    okay, i looked at that and it helped some. but my problem is, say this ... i started with 36 cruel rank 1, started refining them ... i ended up with all these rank 2 that are 'different' levels of refining, so that filled my bag really quick. so i started trying to just do one rank 2 at a time, with the 'untouched' rank 2's i had stacked up, and now i have changed some of the rank 2's into different levels of rank 3. again, my bag of 24 slots is FULL ... where i started with it almost empty. i must be doing something wrong, i don't get it ... because the different level rank 2's and 3's will NOT stack. so how do i fix that? if i try to put some of the different levels in together, i get the message that i'm 'wasting' points and do i want to continue? NO! that was the whole idea of collecting them was to level them up. UGH!
  • obsiddiaobsiddia Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,023 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    melodywhr wrote: »
    simple in that no one really used it as intended? it was a rarity that anyone would unsocket anything. enchants were slotted and destroyed by dropping a new one over it. or people didn't slot anything until they had high level enchants. not to mention the number of shards/enchants/runestones as well as preservation wards/coalescent wards that it required to make high ranking items was ridiculous. and to some, unachievable. so they didn't bother.

    so based on internal data, the devs changed it. fact is, it was broken. if you look at it in a realistic standpoint, nothing worthwhile is easy. but with the old fusion system, it was only possible for a few. with the new system, you can get the benefit from slotting your enchants/runestones and upgrading them while they're slotted. if you want to move things around, it's much cheaper to unslot your items. and every enchant/runestone has value and isn't wasted.

    also, you should not upgrade items before you feed them for refinement points. you'll get more points by using them as they are found.

    good luck!
    Based on that, all you needed was to make the enchant removal cheap.
    Enhancing them in place is certainly not worth the rest of the new inventory clogging mess.

    At least put all the items related to this in a separate Tab, so I don't have to see it.
    No idea what new players are going to do. Certainly won't buy bag space for reagents
    and whatnot they don't understand and have nothing to do with having fun.
    Did you really think anyone could steal the power of the god of thieves?
  • melodywhrmelodywhr Member Posts: 4,218 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    okay, i looked at that and it helped some. but my problem is, say this ... i started with 36 cruel rank 1, started refining them ... i ended up with all these rank 2 that are 'different' levels of refining, so that filled my bag really quick. so i started trying to just do one rank 2 at a time, with the 'untouched' rank 2's i had stacked up, and now i have changed some of the rank 2's into different levels of rank 3. again, my bag of 24 slots is FULL ... where i started with it almost empty. i must be doing something wrong, i don't get it ... because the different level rank 2's and 3's will NOT stack. so how do i fix that? if i try to put some of the different levels in together, i get the message that i'm 'wasting' points and do i want to continue? NO! that was the whole idea of collecting them was to level them up. UGH!



    refinement point upgrade requirements
    refinement point values by rank


    R1 > R2 = 20 RP
    R2 > R3 = 60 RP
    R3 > R4 = 180 RP
    R4 > R5 = 810 RP
    R5 > R6 = 3,240 RP
    R6 > R7 = 12,960 RP
    R7 > R8 = 34,560 RP
    R8 > R9 = 103,680 RP
    R9 > R10 = 311,040 RP
    R1 = 5/10
    R2 = 15/30
    R3 = 45/90
    R4 = 135/270
    R5 = 540/1080
    R6 = 2160/4320
    R7 = 4320/8640
    R8 = 12960/25920
    R9 = 38880/77760





    upgrade schedule:
    • it takes 3 of the same item to upgrade from r1 to r2.
    • it takes 3 of the same item to upgrade from r2 to r3.
    • it takes 3 of the same item to upgrade from r3 to r4.
    • it takes 4 of the same item to upgrade from r4 to r5.
    • it takes 4 of the same item to upgrade from r5 to r6.
    • it takes 4 of the same item to upgrade from r6 to r7.
    • it takes 5 of the same item to upgrade from r7 to r8.
    • it takes 5 of the same item to upgrade from r8 to r9.
    • it takes 5 of the same item to upgrade from r9 to r10.





    there is no advantage to upgrading items before using them for refinement points.
    just use them in their dropped state.

    on the warning you're getting about losing refining points, every item you put into the refinement slots will be consumed. if it has RP on it, they will be lost.
  • melodywhrmelodywhr Member Posts: 4,218 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    obsiddia wrote: »
    Based on that, all you needed was to make the enchant removal cheap.
    Enhancing them in place is certainly not worth the rest of the new inventory clogging mess.

    At least put all the items related to this in a separate Tab, so I don't have to see it.
    No idea what new players are going to do. Certainly won't buy bag space for reagents
    and whatnot they don't understand and have nothing to do with having fun.

    here is what i do and i have tons of inventory space:

    i only feed enchants and runestones that are slotted. i do have a few enchantments in inventory that i'm leveling, but i'm not trying to level up a dozen of enchants all at once because that will clog my inventory up as nothing with refinement points will stack. i'm currently keeping reagent marks in my bank space as they don't need to be in my immediate inventory to be used. but even if i was keeping those in my inventory, i'd still have plenty of space.

    all enchants/runestones can be used with no chance of them being lost in the fusion process. they all have a value and can be used towards any upgrade. there's really no need to store them unless you're farming to sell them. even then, without RP, they'll still stack as they did before. it all depends on your play style and how you choose to manage your inventory.
  • slambitslambit Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 282 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2013
    yeah sorry my bagspace is only slightly improved, while i removed some enchants i now have 3 different kind of artifact refine marks, and oh yeah they come in different qualities just so they dont stack.

    Should i need/desire to rank up enchants above a certain level i now need to use space in bag to rank up enchants to use as reagents, and those wont stack with anything, but pwe/cryptic got out of it what they really needed, they moved the AD cost from unslotting to creating enchants, and they even said so in their blog, extra bagspace was supposed to be icing on the cake.

    Sorry this cake is no good.
  • wildfire412001wildfire412001 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 114 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2013
    that's my problem, i just tried again, got 22 level 5 cruels that are 'untouched' plus 3 level 5's that are varied, plus 3 level 6's that are now varied, plus some 4's and 3's that are varied, plus i have like 8 different green stones plus i just got a peridot and a pearl plus preservation wards and the gray lesser one? needless to say, i can't finish the quest i'm on over at dread ring because i have no slots in my bags for anything that i should find there :( not unless i blow some refining points and just try to finish them up, shrug. and that's just my cruels ... that doesn't count all the other radiants and azures and darks, etc that i have in my bags. and i haven't even TOUCHED my bank vault yet! it's got 4 ROWS of level 6's and 7's and shards. :( what to do, what to do, what to do.

    **though if i read correctly on the one explanatory thread, the shards should just take 4 and a CW, is that correct? if so, then maybe i should just work on those and upgrade them, at least it would give me some space. if i'm understanding that part correctly?
  • bioshrikebioshrike Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,729 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    I think the best course of action is to *not* touch any enchant unless you plan on using it right away, or unless it's already slotted. Since an enchantment that has some refinement points in it is considered "unique" insofar as it won't stack w/ others, to try and keep a stock of work-in-progress enchants is just a waste of space.
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  • wildfire412001wildfire412001 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 114 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2013
    right now i think i would probably have been better off just leaving them as is until i WAS ready to use them in something ... because they are the only ones that will stack. i just didn't understand the new system enough to know that it WOULD create runes and enchants that won't stack. a REDO button would be great right about now! lol
  • dracoprimusdracoprimus Member Posts: 20 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    you guys are doing it wrong, that's why you see it as so messed up. You don't need to upgrade a rune before using it in another rune. You don't need to upgrade your rank1s before using them in another rune. You can dump a rank1 into a rank5. Actually, I think you GAIN refine points if you put the rank1s directly into a higher rank rather than combining them into a rank2.
  • melodywhrmelodywhr Member Posts: 4,218 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    you guys are doing it wrong, that's why you see it as so messed up. You don't need to upgrade a rune before using it in another rune. You don't need to upgrade your rank1s before using them in another rune. You can dump a rank1 into a rank5. Actually, I think you GAIN refine points if you put the rank1s directly into a higher rank rather than combining them into a rank2.

    you are correct except there is no advantage to upgrading items before using them to feed into other items. i think on the preview feedback threads before module 2 went live, someone made the statement that you just need to feed rank 4s into your enchants, but there's no advantage to that and it would be detrimental to your inventory space if you were trying to level up all of these lower level enchants. enchants with refine points do not stack.
  • idida1idida1 Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    So.. I buy extra vault space so i can collect and sort all the enchantment/enchantment "stones". they stacked very nicely in my vault and it was easy to keep track of what i had. Along comes this absolutely <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> system where it is impossible to stack items and even more difficult to crunch them to the next level. I dont like it not one bit and refuse to spend real money on a free to play game so i can have a competitive set of items on my char.
  • plaviaplavia Member Posts: 540 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    you guys are doing it wrong, that's why you see it as so messed up. You don't need to upgrade a rune before using it in another rune. You don't need to upgrade your rank1s before using them in another rune. You can dump a rank1 into a rank5. Actually, I think you GAIN refine points if you put the rank1s directly into a higher rank rather than combining them into a rank2.

    so I should keep all my runes untouched, collect the other ~20 more new items (there are so rare I need to keep each of them)
    and like this I will have more room in my bag compare to the previous system?
  • jorifice1jorifice1 Member Posts: 1,042 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    The trick is not to think of them as individual Runes, but rather as a collection of refining points. There is no reason to have stacks of any runes at all. Just dump them, four at a time, into the best rune of each type you have. It's relatively cheep up to Rank Five. You don't NEED stacks of lesser Runes. Just one BIG rune. And all the OTHER items? Also just collections of Refining Points. Treat everything as if it were the equivalent value in Refining Points and that bag space will open right up!
    And don't forget, you can mix and match Runes. Don't EVER use one type, use it to upgrade another that you DO use!

    'Wen considered the nature of time and understood that the universe is, instant by instant, recreated anew. Therefore, he understood, there is in truth no past, only a memory of the past. Blink your eyes, and the world you see next did not exist when you closed them. Therefore, he said, the only appropriate state of the mind is surprise. The only appropriate state of the heart is joy. The sky you see now, you have never seen before. The perfect moment is now. Be glad of it.' Terry Pratchet The Thief Of Time
  • shunterinoshunterino Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    jorifice1 wrote: »
    The trick is not to think of them as individual Runes, but rather as a collection of refining points. There is no reason to have stacks of any runes at all. Just dump them, four at a time, into the best rune of each type you have. It's relatively cheep up to Rank Five. You don't NEED stacks of lesser Runes. Just one BIG rune. And all the OTHER items? Also just collections of Refining Points. Treat everything as if it were the equivalent value in Refining Points and that bag space will open right up!
    And don't forget, you can mix and match Runes. Don't EVER use one type, use it to upgrade another that you DO use!

    This isn't true. It only works until you fill up the rune, then you have to upgrade it to the next level to keep adding more refining points. Only, in order to upgrade you need the correct reagent/mark which are very hard to get hold of, especially the blue ones (or 250k AD each on AH). So very quickly you will hit a big fat blockage and the lesser runes will pile up once again :/
  • khimera906khimera906 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 898 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Honestly my only Con- on the subject are reagents, ad their AD cost. Everyone was excited about the removal of AD cost on gem removal, but all they did was move that cost to the initial crafting. So if you were a cheap skate who never used gems till end game you actually use to be able to save AD that way, now you're forced to use it period.
    Go to the Wondrous Bazaar (AD store) put your cursor on each on each of the Marks and in lower part of the tooltip It will tell you something like "This item can be acquired from...". These items can be obtained from various places and you don't have to buy them if you don't want to.
    I hate dancing with Lady Luck. She always steps on my toes.
  • shunterinoshunterino Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    khimera906 wrote: »
    Go to the Wondrous Bazaar (AD store) put your cursor on each on each of the Marks and in lower part of the tooltip It will tell you something like "This item can be acquired from...". These items can be obtained from various places and you don't have to buy them if you don't want to.

    Also not as it seems. WB only sells Potency marks which are only part of what you need to upgrade, and if you do try to get them from drops in Dungeons, god speed because so far no one is having any luck getting them from bosses or nodes. "Rare" means really, really rare. The other Marks like Power are even harder to get hold of because you can't buy them even if you wanted to, except off the Ah (people are finding them in lockboxes... hmmm, how convenient) for 250k AD.

    Yes there are supposed to be places you can earn them in game, but they are super, super rare drops and on top of that in places where 5 people will be vying for them.
  • idida1idida1 Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    shunterino wrote: »
    Also not as it seems. WB only sells Potency marks which are only part of what you need to upgrade, and if you do try to get them from drops in Dungeons, god speed because so far no one is having any luck getting them from bosses or nodes. "Rare" means really, really rare. The other Marks like Power are even harder to get hold of because you can't buy them even if you wanted to, except off the Ah (people are finding them in lockboxes... hmmm, how convenient) for 250k AD.

    Yes there are supposed to be places you can earn them in game, but they are super, super rare drops and on top of that in places where 5 people will be vying for them.

    Yup another real money grab for a free to play game.
  • wildfire412001wildfire412001 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 114 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2013
    i opened 21 boxes and got ONE pearl out of the entire lot! and i got the peridot (green) from the level 7 celestial coffers box. i haven't found any more anywhere else, except from the starter pack that they gave me because that character was level 60. i've spent i don't know how much AD buying the one that's gray (is it 200 AD?) and another one that's 500 AD from the wondrous bazaar. i had a look in the AH just to see and not only was everything completely out of my price range but there weren't that many to be found ... mostly it was Aquamarine (blue) on AH for sale. i started with 22 PW's but now i'm down to about 2 or 3. no CW's.
  • philmanpwphilmanpw Member Posts: 30 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Yeah I thought the main point of the new refinement system was to help clear up bag space, but instead of storing all the enchantments/runestones now I have to hold all these marks and what not. And to make it worse we have 3 different types of marks and of various rarity. should have made it so there is a white, green, blue, purple mark and left off union, potency, etc. that would streamline it a bunch. any bets on a new system coming in module 3 or will it be too late by then.
  • ott0madduxott0maddux Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 204 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2013
    They gave a bunch of reasons for this new refining system and not a single one is anywhere close to reality.

    For example they said it was going to save on bag space. This new system is killing my bag space. I've got a ton of lower enchantments and a bunch of higher enchantments that are ready to upgrade, but no reagents to upgrade them with and no AD to buy them.

    They said this system was going to be less complicated and easier to use. Sorry another big fail. With the old system all I had to do was click on the enchant I wanted to fuse and then click away until I was finished. With this system I have to click on the enchant I want then click on the fill slots, find the enchants I want to burn, slot them then refine, then do it again. It may not seem like much to some people, but it has quintupled the time it takes me to refine. Just seems like a huge waste of my time. I just can't keep justifiying playing a game that it really seems the devs don't want me to play.
  • cdnbisoncdnbison Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 806 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Count me as *for* the new system. I reclaimed nearly 2 entire GBoH by feeding stuff to gems.

    Want to save space? It's easy - refine one of any one type at a time, until it is rank 5-7. So, I have a dark, azure and radiant enchant I am levelling. Any ranks 4's I get, go into them. Once they are ready, I upgrade.

    If you have alts, designate one as the "4 prep" and send anything that isn't a rank 4 to them. Do the same - dump all your dark enchants on *one* dark enchant, and keep upgrading it until it is rank 4. Then send to your main to be fed to the Dark enchant that is in progress.

    "trash" gems, like training runestones, can just be fed anywhere. Don't worry about going over, unless it is by a completely insane amount - which shouldn't happen anyways.

    That means you're using 4-8 slots on each character. Not that bad.

    (And I've had a good number of pearls and peridots drop from leadership boxes. Not huge, but enough that it's making a difference.)
  • haelrahaelra Member Posts: 220 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    It's a wash for me, bag-space wise. I wasn't saving bunches of them before, I dumped them on the auction, unless I had four to combine. Now I've fed them into a few I'm refining up, which are now stuck at the upgraded point. I'm not finding the reagants to upgrade them, so they just sit there. I used to only need a ward at this point, but now I need a ward, which is just as expensive itf not more-so than before, and also I need these reagents, which are very expensive or virtually impossible to get from content.

    I'm not going to stage things between a pile of alts, or create spreadsheets and databases of which I'm refining up, or map out my day around finding the right reagents, if that's even possible. That is "work", and I prefer to "play" in games. It's becoming clear to me this that system is probably better for high-intensity players who're willing to work hard and jump through lots of hoops going for high-end enchantments; but for those of use at the low and middle ends, it's a hugely bad system. Give me the old one back, and I'd be happy. Even better, give me the old system back, tweak it to use three instead of four for fusing, improve the odds a little, and give me a storage panel for enchantments. There; everything they claimed this system was supposed to fix would actually have been fixed, for everyone.
  • rollingonitrollingonit Member Posts: 1,322 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    So far, mixed feelings on it. Pretty much it seems, just take the highest enchant you have of each type right now and stuff all lower enchants on it and hope you don't hit the refine cap w/o a reagent. Just gonna take a bit to get used to, I believe for me. The reagent chokepoint/bottleneck will be the most telling part.
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  • adronzh3roadronzh3ro Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    As people mentioned before, this new system did a few things well but massively screwed up everything else.

    As for me, i have 5 rank 6 dark enchantments ready to upgrade, but i can't because it simply doesn't drop the required reagents. I did more than 10 T2 epic dungeons and at least 5 T1 epic dungeons, no blue mark of power nor potency and only one purple mark of potency that i didn't even got. Nothing from skill nodes what so ever either. I also have 6 rank 7 enchantments, so space in my bag, for me, isn't an issue anymore.

    However, the only way to upgrade them without expending a ton of time is buying the reagents, which is kinda expected of them to make it available for purchase but still way more expensive then it was with drops alone. Furthermore, for those who actualy were able to find the reagents, on AH, currently, a blue mark of power is worth 250k ad, while purple mark of power are worth 10k.

    They did switched the ad from removing an ehchantment to gold, but that's one tiny good thing into a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> storm.

    So there you go, blue marks are expensive as hell and nearly impossible to find while purple ones are cheap, so either you pay ad to improve anything from rank 5 to rank 7 or screw you.

    P.S.: Before you didn't needed anything to improve rank 5 into rank 7 besides some preservations wards here and there, so even though blue mark of potency costs 25k ad, i still think it's expensive.

    To make a rank 8 it's somewhat the same ad cost so...

    Really good job.
  • minotaur2857minotaur2857 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,140 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    The new system sucks badly and is pretty much completely unusable for me. Why ? I solo most of the time and don't do dungeons, so I cannot obtain the blue marks in the quantities I need them and am not paying for them off the AH. Basically I haven't upgraded an enchantment above rank 4 since the change (I have a huge stack of 5s and 6s from before the patch).

    I'll upgrade my artifacts as best I can, but when I run out of the enchantments I have stored, I suspect that will be the end of the game for me. Why do games do this, I was forced out of RIFT when they changed it so that the best crafted items required raid drops that I couldn't get.
  • adronzh3roadronzh3ro Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Make common and uncommon marks drop from regular mobs, rare marks drop mobs in epic dungeons and epic marks drops from bosses, but not this 1 each 100 bosses, make it regular.

    There you go, a refining system that makes more sense than this node skill/leadership bullcrap.
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