rlrobrMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2013
I think PvP is well balanced like it is now. Each class has strengths and weakness, but the problem is that most people don't know the class their playing and don't know the other classes as well.
When playing a DC, I don't expect to have the most kills in a match (although it's happened a few times), but I can say that I'm pretty much unkillable in a 1 vs 1 fight, or even 2 vs 1 (except pehaps against a good TR and CW working well together). So my objective is to hold points and prevent the other team from taking them.
Here is the problem when people start QQ'ing about PvP. Whenever they start nerfing classes for PvP, it ultimately destroys functionality and effectiveness in PvE. Without multi spec classes, if you start messing with 1 you will ruin the other. They have to maintain a balance. Which, I think they have done fairly well considering.
The whole discussion about how you should play as a team is just plain pointless and doesn't change the fact that PVP in Neverwinter is totally broken due to classes that were designed to be strong against waves of mobs in PVE. There is absolutely no reason for a class in PVP that can perma-stealth and still deal damage. There is also no reason why someone can get temporary hitpoints AND break free from control effects AND are immune to control effects AND take less damage.
They should finally separate PVP from PVE by changing mechanics, abilities and stats for PVP. Everquest 2 did the same with PVP, they reduced the effectiveness a lot of spells in PVP, they changed some mechanics of spells in PVP and they introduced new stuff like CC immunities only for PVP. Why can TRs kill you with 1-2 shots in this game in about 2 seconds? Why can someone CC you to death without you having a chance to do something? Why can one single class hold the beating of 4 players for minutes? Why can a class have a button that makes him immune to everything while he is the one that deals the highest single target damage in the game?
Everyone that just argues with "learn to play" or "play as a team" doesn't really understand the meta of PVP. No one can tell me that a Rogue class, that - if specced right can solo PVE BOSSES - has a right to stay unchanged in PVP.
What bugs me the most is that the classes at the moment mainly come with boosts. The GWF for example. If you play MMOs you know this kind of class. It is a berserk kind of class. Someone that goes wild and deals lots of damage to those around him. But other MMOs give berserks often big drawbacks. Often they have to sacrifice protection for damage or health for damage. In Neverwinter though they only gain a bonus, more hitpoints, more protection, no CC, more damage... Also in other games rogue's stealth is something that gives them the option to hide in shadows and then deal a powerful first strike which reveals their position. Often they are slower while stealthed, too. In Neverwinter stealth is more a permanent feature of a rogue. He can stealth while standing nose to nose to you and deal damage. That is not revealing his position (not even the wizard in this game has an invisible spell that is so strong!). Also stealth in Neverwinter is not for boosting a certain strike or is needed to activate an ability at all (like in other games you need to stealth to use certain abilities), it is a feature to hide almost permanently. On the other hand the only healer in game is only strong when he puts Def and Regen items on. Alone with his abilities he dies also in 1-3 seconds to any good TR or CW. Also the healers - unlike in others MMO I played before - are not really needed in PVP anyway. GWFs don't need healers, GFs don't need them, TRs hide in stealth anyway all the time and don't need them... most classes are so strong alone that a support class is not really needed.
Fix PVP and stop demanding punishments for leavers. I can only encourage more people to leave any one-sided PVP match or any match where a GWF can't be killed by your whole team or where unstealthing rogues permanently bug you. The more people leave matches the sooner Cryptic will understand that lots of people don't have much fun in PVP and that they need to adress the issues.
The whole discussion about how you should play as a team is just plain pointless and doesn't change the fact that PVP in Neverwinter is totally broken due to classes that were designed to be strong against waves of mobs in PVE. There is absolutely no reason for a class in PVP that can perma-stealth and still deal damage. There is also no reason why someone can get temporary hitpoints AND break free from control effects AND are immune to control effects AND take less damage.
They should finally separate PVP from PVE by changing mechanics, abilities and stats for PVP. Everquest 2 did the same with PVP, they reduced the effectiveness a lot of spells in PVP, they changed some mechanics of spells in PVP and they introduced new stuff like CC immunities only for PVP. Why can TRs kill you with 1-2 shots in this game in about 2 seconds? Why can someone CC you to death without you having a chance to do something? Why can one single class hold the beating of 4 players for minutes? Why can a class have a button that makes him immune to everything while he is the one that deals the highest single target damage in the game?
Everyone that just argues with "learn to play" or "play as a team" doesn't really understand the meta of PVP. No one can tell me that a Rogue class, that - if specced right can solo PVE BOSSES - has a right to stay unchanged in PVP.
What bugs me the most is that the classes at the moment mainly come with boosts. The GWF for example. If you play MMOs you know this kind of class. It is a berserk kind of class. Someone that goes wild and deals lots of damage to those around him. But other MMOs give berserks often big drawbacks. Often they have to sacrifice protection for damage or health for damage. In Neverwinter though they only gain a bonus, more hitpoints, more protection, no CC, more damage... Also in other games rogue's stealth is something that gives them the option to hide in shadows and then deal a powerful first strike which reveals their position. Often they are slower while stealthed, too. In Neverwinter stealth is more a permanent feature of a rogue. He can stealth while standing nose to nose to you and deal damage. That is not revealing his position (not even the wizard in this game has an invisible spell that is so strong!). Also stealth in Neverwinter is not for boosting a certain strike or is needed to activate an ability at all (like in other games you need to stealth to use certain abilities), it is a feature to hide almost permanently. On the other hand the only healer in game is only strong when he puts Def and Regen items on. Alone with his abilities he dies also in 1-3 seconds to any good TR or CW. Also the healers - unlike in others MMO I played before - are not really needed in PVP anyway. GWFs don't need healers, GFs don't need them, TRs hide in stealth anyway all the time and don't need them... most classes are so strong alone that a support class is not really needed.
Fix PVP and stop demanding punishments for leavers. I can only encourage more people to leave any one-sided PVP match or any match where a GWF can't be killed by your whole team or where unstealthing rogues permanently bug you. The more people leave matches the sooner Cryptic will understand that lots of people don't have much fun in PVP and that they need to adress the issues.
Well this is neverwinter. Not your other average mmo. So stop acting like it has to conform to the rest of them. The game is balanced when you are equally geared and skilled. The lack of one causes a misconception of "unbalanced" classes. I have every class at 60 geared and they all have pros and cons.
U R 2 E Z- SENT IV GWF undefeated 16k GS
FaceRoller- regen recovery TR (put on the shelf for now) 14k GS
Supreme CHAOS - IV GF (put on the shelf for now) 16k GS
White Khalifa- tene/hp/regen CW (retired) 11k GS (tene)
Death From Above- TANK ranger 16kGS
(all halfling everything)
The whole discussion about how you should play as a team is just plain pointless and doesn't change the fact that PVP in Neverwinter is totally broken due to classes that were designed to be strong against waves of mobs in PVE. There is absolutely no reason for a class in PVP that can perma-stealth and still deal damage. There is also no reason why someone can get temporary hitpoints AND break free from control effects AND are immune to control effects AND take less damage.
Your opinion, is respected. But your opinion isn't a fact, it is just an opinion. So please stop making it sound like it is an ultimate fact.
You sound like an un-experienced PvP player, you need to level every class to 60 and understand their mechanics and full potentials in PvP before you start "stating facts". Or just watch videos of professional PvP players ( experienced) ones and then you can start ranting.
So far you sound clueless about so many things in PvP mechanics, and unfortunately, you aren't willing to read any pieces of advice concerning that matter either.
If you want to improve, you can check the class forums as there are countless guides about different strategies and mechanics for every class in PvP...but if you want to just rant and complain, then do what you please but it wont move you any further .
The game is balanced when you are equally geared and skilled.
No it isn't. Take for instance TR vs. CW. Even if they are of equal skill and gear, about 90% of the time, the TR will get the first shot in at the CW with Lashing Blade. So the CW already starts in at, at a minimum, an immediate half-health disadvantage. And from then on all the TR has to do is know how to use Impossible to Catch, Sly Flourish/Impact Shot, and dodge.
Sure the TR could slip up and then the CW would be able to perma-CC him and kill him. Sure that happens. But not against the good ones. The CW might also get lucky and dodge the initial Lashing Blade. But that is not *balance*, it is luck. (And a very fast Internet connection.)
The OP is right, TRs are designed to be able to do high burst damage on PVE bosses with zillions of hit points. So *of course* they are going to be unbalanced in PVP against regular players with ordinary amounts of hit points. Why do you think so many professional PVPers are TRs? Because the players have voted with their choices: they know TRs are overpowered and use that to their advantage.
And I am totally okay with OP TR's in PVP, actually, just as long as the OPness doesn't ruin the PVE experience for everyone else.
Just because there are a few great PVP CWs doesn't mean that the class as a whole is balanced against every other class. It's not.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2013
"This game is not about 1 vs 1" argument incoming soon It usually always come prepacked with "at highest levels, PvP is balanced" and "you get killed so often because build/class Y is the counter to your build/class X"...
I'm sure you jest CWs are the worst possible choice at contesting points and tanking, by far. There are probably like 4-5 CWs in the entire game that I know of who are capable of doing a slightly decent job at this, but still extremely underwhelming compared to tank DC/sent/TR/GF
Yeah, but only a dumb team doesn't focus the CW. The audio from PM vs PM streams/video is telling it all: "Focus the CW", each and every time without exception. So sadly, the CW is the least capable class of carrying teams to victory in my opinion, I played quite a few games against very good PvP CWs when they had bad pugs as a team and many of them even left in frustration while others stood at camp and chatted instead.
Basically there's no reason to not focus the CW: they are dangerous and they are squishy too. So there are no excuses.
Well if by tanking we mean surviving while drawing almost all of the attention of the opponent, then the fact the cw is the primary focus of the opponent, we only need to survive an adequate amount of time to adequately tank. I come in #1 or 2 on my pug teams consistently on my cw, and its not because I am that good at it. Imo, you fight on the node regardless of your class, unless your going to ambush someone on a blue node and can kill them and jump back on the node while it is still all blue.
Putting 1 opponent in choke and running around on the node doing nothing but dodging/pushing/dailying the other 3-4 counts as contesting the node and tying up the other team.
No it isn't. Take for instance TR vs. CW. Even if they are of equal skill and gear, about 90% of the time, the TR will get the first shot in at the CW with Lashing Blade. So the CW already starts in at, at a minimum, an immediate half-health disadvantage. And from then on all the TR has to do is know how to use Impossible to Catch, Sly Flourish/Impact Shot, and dodge.
Sure the TR could slip up and then the CW would be able to perma-CC him and kill him. Sure that happens. But not against the good ones. The CW might also get lucky and dodge the initial Lashing Blade. But that is not *balance*, it is luck. (And a very fast Internet connection.)
The OP is right, TRs are designed to be able to do high burst damage on PVE bosses with zillions of hit points. So *of course* they are going to be unbalanced in PVP against regular players with ordinary amounts of hit points. Why do you think so many professional PVPers are TRs? Because the players have voted with their choices: they know TRs are overpowered and use that to their advantage.
And I am totally okay with OP TR's in PVP, actually, just as long as the OPness doesn't ruin the PVE experience for everyone else.
Just because there are a few great PVP CWs doesn't mean that the class as a whole is balanced against every other class. It's not.
The way to catch a tr as a cw is to dodge once or twice with w, then quick reverse>dodge with s, put the cursor right behind you toon and choke. Odds are the attacks you dodged are the big ones, the tr will be directly behind you so when you s-dodge you end up behind HIM. A tr in choke is, imo, a soon dead tr.
That said, I think TR's are the bane of CWs but even so, the classes in pvp are a matter of rock-paper-scissors.
I read yokihiro's post and had to comment. A GWF is NOT a bezerker. The barbarian (if it comes into NW) would be the bezerker. The GWF is the other side of the coin of the GF. BOTH have good defense. One goes further with the shield, the other picks a big weapon to beat people with. Neither one is about wild swinging. Takedown, flourish, weapon master strike, these are all abilities that point towards high level of skill. This means, that per player spec, the GWF can be tanky. The GF can be glass cannony and hit really hard. Because they are both pulled from a base class of fighter.
As for the stealth thing.. a true 'perma-stealth' rogue, can't stay in stealth forever. It's bait and switch > shadow strike > lurker assault, which can last long enough to allow those 2 to come off cool down. They generaully have ITC, so they can survive. Since if a rogue is nose to nose with you and go stealth.. guess what? you CAN target them. They are not invincible ninja that are completely invisible and beat you with impunity. Stealth is all about keeping away, hit and run moves. If they use ITC out of stealth, they're NOT immune. They have a high deflect chance. They can still die. They have died. They do resist CC, however it's also a 4 second time frame. For some that's enough, for others it's just a prelude of death.
Speaking of CC control bits, unstoppable AND ITC (along with duelist flurry) can be disrupted by 1 move from a GF. Terrorfying impact will knock anyone and everyone down. A GF blocking, a GWF in unstoppable, and a rogue in their CC immune setups. It takes some skill to hit with it, but it can happen.
As for the DC part, last part I'll comment on, they CAN be tough. They can heal while being tough. There's Gctrl, who took on 5 (the WHOLE TEAM that is) people beating on him at point. A DC takes skill to pull off, it's not a straight healer, not a straight dps or controller. They support, they pump resist and they suppliment healing. A poor DC can be ignored as they're useless. A good DC can become the primary target before the CW because of what they can do.
I would humbly repeat what others have said. Read up about the other classes. Watch videos. There's plenty from each class on youtube that shows the strength of those classes. How they deal 1 on 1, or even multi on 1. I hardly claim to be a great. I do know the painting of classes that you have done is far from the truth.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Well if by tanking we mean surviving while drawing almost all of the attention of the opponent, then the fact the cw is the primary focus of the opponent, we only need to survive an adequate amount of time to adequately tank. I come in #1 or 2 on my pug teams consistently on my cw, and its not because I am that good at it. Imo, you fight on the node regardless of your class, unless your going to ambush someone on a blue node and can kill them and jump back on the node while it is still all blue.
Putting 1 opponent in choke and running around on the node doing nothing but dodging/pushing/dailying the other 3-4 counts as contesting the node and tying up the other team.
I sometimes play the sacrificial lamb too, but usually only when my team is so clueless that they have no idea what backcapping is or contesting home with the annoying perma/GWF. So I gotta go and throw some Ice Storms while looking ridiculously stupid as a backcapping CW, because yeah, nobody else would do it.
But am I good at this? Nah. Hell no. Any decent team will focus me in 2-3 secs easily.
As for playing on point, sometimes you can or should, sometimes you can't or shouldn't. If there's some GWF on point, your time is better spent sniping the DC/enemy CWs from afar, just an example. Yeah you should touch the point if it's red even if you're gonna die, but this is a desperate move. You can pretty much play on point rather effectively (against pugs) if you have a good DC with you. If you play against a PM/good players, not even a godly DC will save you from being focused.
My conclusion is that CWs are ranged snipers, not close range contesters. If you wanna win, you gotta utilize classes for their purpose, you don't ask the DC to DPS the enemy team down for example.
There's a reason there are no CW videos out there with mages stalling 2-3 enemies at point as a tactic... it's not our thing, and we shouldn't be asked to do it.
Yes they are immune. That's the whole point of ITC. They don't just have a "high deflect chance", they have a 100% deflect chance.
If ITC does not make a TR completely immune, then please present the CW encounter which can damage an ITC-enabled TR.
Wrong. You've clearly never played TR or faced enough TRs.
Deflection is only 50% damage reduction or 75% in the case of TR. I have often killed TRs through unstealthed ITC if they are low enough (and have no SF proc).
Wrong. You've clearly never played TR or faced enough TRs.
Deflection is only 50% damage reduction or 75% in the case of TR. I have often killed TRs through unstealthed ITC if they are low enough (and have no SF proc).
Then what will work on a TR while ITC is active?
Because I have read, in multiple places, that CWs shouldn't waste their encounters on a TR while ITC is active.
^ These guys don't understand how to play DC well in PvP.
^ That guy does.
I love how your arguement works, if your not in the best pvp guild with some amazing gear and cannot perform like them you suck at your class, dude that is bull****!
here is how it works yes deflect build and regen build rocks, have you seen a sentinel build or a guardian build with that aswell? it kicks *** on all classes!
next question why should the DC only be playable when you have tons of deflect so their is a % chance for you to survive a blow? it is downright stupid that you have to be so dependant on a rng and a extremely timed dodge against a foe you cannot see so its basicly luck! no classes are this dependant on chance! this needs to fixed asap.
also if you pile all the classes together the one with the toughest learning curve that gets the fewest point in pvp is also a dc.
yes you can do okay with full regen deflect gear all classes. you just have to farm absurds amount of astral to get some gear that basicly makes you useless outside of pvp.
I am by no means a **** in pvp, I played pvp in many games but the fact is cleric is simply not that good. their is not a single reason why clerics should be so hard to even get a litle payoff from when other classes can do half the work and still get more points.
I sometimes play the sacrificial lamb too, but usually only when my team is so clueless that they have no idea what backcapping is or contesting home with the annoying perma/GWF. So I gotta go and throw some Ice Storms while looking ridiculously stupid as a backcapping CW, because yeah, nobody else would do it.
But am I good at this? Nah. Hell no. Any decent team will focus me in 2-3 secs easily.
As for playing on point, sometimes you can or should, sometimes you can't or shouldn't. If there's some GWF on point, your time is better spent sniping the DC/enemy CWs from afar, just an example. Yeah you should touch the point if it's red even if you're gonna die, but this is a desperate move. You can pretty much play on point rather effectively (against pugs) if you have a good DC with you. If you play against a PM/good players, not even a godly DC will save you from being focused.
My conclusion is that CWs are ranged snipers, not close range contesters. If you wanna win, you gotta utilize classes for their purpose, you don't ask the DC to DPS the enemy team down for example.
There's a reason there are no CW videos out there with mages stalling 2-3 enemies at point as a tactic... it's not our thing, and we shouldn't be asked to do it.
Just as I predicted, it took only 1 post for this argument to pop up
Being on node, for me, comes from only having played gf before cw. I am still a nub I play almost exclusively in pugs and do what needs done to keep the nodes blue. Is what needs done always optimal? No way. Pugs are normally horrid with people running around clueless, fighters fighting off node and so on. I guess I do what works for me. If my toon is going to die anyways, it might as well die while being cc'd and bated around a node. I take youtube vids as basic instruction and an awesome resource but not the be-all end all bible of how to pvp.
Yes, rock-paper-scissors, what is so outlandish about that? It should be predictable, it is generally true. Everyone with a pet class thinks the class that pwns it is OP. So all the classes are op? Look at the original post, pretty much saying every class vs cw is op. Yet others say they are so dangerous that the other party has to focus them.
Wrong. You've clearly never played TR or faced enough TRs.
Deflection is only 50% damage reduction or 75% in the case of TR. I have often killed TRs through unstealthed ITC if they are low enough (and have no SF proc).
One more mistake, its a 20,000% deflect chance you get when you pop itc + the % you already have. :P
But anyways on too the topic, imoh the pvp classes are pretty stable atm, like it's said above its pretty much a game of "Rock,Paper,Scissor". I'm satisfied with the devs there.
Instead of complaining about nerfs and buffs now, why don't you guys just hold on the trolling untill M2 comes out.
I love how your argument works, if your not in the best pvp guild with some amazing gear and cannot perform like them you suck at your class, dude that is bull****!
GCTR's Gear consist of some cheap rings and blue gear. Your argument isn't even valid ^_^. ( i love you too though)
here is how it works yes deflect build and regen build rocks, have you seen a sentinel build or a guardian build with that aswell? it kicks *** on all classes!
And your point is? and yes i have sent GWF. I can't relate the effectiveness of sent builds and GF builds to the fact that DCs are good and viable in PvP, unlike what others said.
next question why should the DC only be playable when you have tons of deflect so their is a % chance for you to survive a blow? it is downright stupid that you have to be so dependant on a rng and a extremely timed dodge against a foe you cannot see so its basicly luck! no classes are this dependant on chance! this needs to fixed asap.
Ok, apparently you never played a DC.
AS gives 24% DR, combine with daily...you get 30%+ 24% thats 54% DR ...add them to your current DR...yep, you can cap DR on DC but here you are, talking about their dependence on Deflect xD.
yes you can do okay with full regen deflect gear all classes. you just have to farm absurds amount of astral to get some gear that basicly makes you useless outside of pvp.
Oh really?
BiS for Sent is 2 piece titans ( 100k helm + 600k chest) and 2 piece imposing scrappers ( so cheap) + blue rings + blue neck + blue belt
1.6 M budget, you can fully gear your sent ( excluding enchants).
For PvE GWF, you have to pay 600k + for each piece of the gear set, and 700k+ on weapons.
For DC, Look at GCTRL's guide. The only expensive part is the nightmare icon and that's only because it has defensive slot.
About viability in PvP and PvE , it is a phenomena. You can't be 100% good in PVP and 100% good in PvE you will always have to sacrifice something.
That's why you make separate characters with separate gears.
I am by no means a **** in pvp, I played pvp in many games but the fact is cleric is simply not that good. their is not a single reason why clerics should be so hard to even get a litle payoff from when other classes can do half the work and still get more points.
That's not even true. Gearing a cleric for PvP is cheap and easy.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Yes, rock-paper-scissors, what is so outlandish about that? It should be predictable, it is generally true. Everyone with a pet class thinks the class that pwns it is OP. So all the classes are op? Look at the original post, pretty much saying every class vs cw is op. Yet others say they are so dangerous that the other party has to focus them.
Yeah, CWs are dangerous, sure. If left alone they perma root/stun/slow people and do pretty good damage while also debuffing targets. They also build AP fast and if you let them cast a lot, you will see tens of Ice Knives or whatever else super-annoying daily.
And yes, anybody with a brain will focus them first because they are squishy-squish especially if not built for PvP (let's say halfling/deflect/HP+Con/regen stuff). Another problem with the CW is that most of our PvP feats are **** useless for PvE, so most don't bother. A dual spec would solve this.
As for rock-paper-scissors, it's a dumb system IMO. I'd rather have a very balanced system that takes all classes into consideration (including DCs, yes...), each class at approximatively the same levels of gear/skill (best PvPers should serve as a sample here for balancing purposes) should score 50% kills on 1 vs 1 duels against all other classes. This would be ideal in my opinion. Pure balance based on statistical, not empirical data.
I see what you mean, but for 5v5 high class pvp this would destroy alot. The way it's balanced atm pvp games take 50-90 min. I can't wait too see what the devs have been planing with the new archer/boons tho:))
Guardian Fighter is nowhere near unbalanced, if u have problem against one u are either a ungeared DC or simply a unexp palyer...unless u happened to fight one of the best GFs in game which is doubtful since not many good GFs around...
Hi, I have a problem with some behavior in pvp matches. Some guys think that everyone sould play the game according to their style, or els you been called names like you a nub, or what are you doing, In pvp matches i never had the time to stand and look what other players do, so where do they get the time, and then stil want to call you names for not doing good in their eyes. Aren't we all here to enjoy the the game, or are we supose to please other players with a weak mind of loosing. And after he called you names, they put you on ignore so you can't get back at them. Are there any rule to defent yourself in this, like in banning, or penalising that guys. Just asking, because i limit my pvp games since then. I refuse to please any player eccept by enjoying my style of playing.
Hi, I have a problem with some behavior in pvp matches. Some guys think that everyone sould play the game according to their style, or els you been called names like you a nub, or what are you doing, In pvp matches i never had the time to stand and look what other players do, so where do they get the time, and then stil want to call you names for not doing good in their eyes. Aren't we all here to enjoy the the game, or are we supose to please other players with a weak mind of loosing. And after he called you names, they put you on ignore so you can't get back at them. Are there any rule to defent yourself in this, like in banning, or penalising that guys. Just asking, because i limit my pvp games since then. I refuse to please any player eccept by enjoying my style of playing.
It's very easy to notice somebody n00bing around...
Calling names is bad and lame, but if some guy that just hold the point against 3-4 others etc. etc. and looks like he knows what he's doing, and he tells you to do something like "go mid" or "backcap", you should do it, because they're probably way more experienced and have the team's best interest in mind, i.e. winning.
Keep in mind, you play with another 4 people, don't destroy their game by continually ignoring good advice and just being an embarrassment to your team. Improve and become a better player and pay attention to what dedicated PvPers say, they might have something useful for you. Stop being selfish and playing "your style", regardless of the impact that it might have on the team's chances to win. What's important is the win.
Hi, I have a problem with some behavior in pvp matches. Some guys think that everyone sould play the game according to their style, or els you been called names like you a nub, or what are you doing, In pvp matches i never had the time to stand and look what other players do, so where do they get the time, and then stil want to call you names for not doing good in their eyes. Aren't we all here to enjoy the the game, or are we supose to please other players with a weak mind of loosing. And after he called you names, they put you on ignore so you can't get back at them. Are there any rule to defent yourself in this, like in banning, or penalising that guys. Just asking, because i limit my pvp games since then. I refuse to please any player eccept by enjoying my style of playing.
Why don't you just start to play good to get rid off these people? I've never had any "nub" calls to me (except butthurt kiddies after being killed a few times).
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
Hi, I have a problem with some behavior in pvp matches. Some guys think that everyone sould play the game according to their style, or els you been called names like you a nub, or what are you doing, In pvp matches i never had the time to stand and look what other players do, so where do they get the time, and then stil want to call you names for not doing good in their eyes. Aren't we all here to enjoy the the game, or are we supose to please other players with a weak mind of loosing. And after he called you names, they put you on ignore so you can't get back at them. Are there any rule to defent yourself in this, like in banning, or penalising that guys. Just asking, because i limit my pvp games since then. I refuse to please any player eccept by enjoying my style of playing.
you're going to have differing play styles in pvp simply because some people are extremely competitive, some are there for fun and yet others are there just for the daily rewards. on the subject of trash talking/name calling, i generally turn off the zone and say channels when i'm pvping. it serves me no purpose. if there's someone in my party that wants to play commando, usually they're the only person talking. while there is a strategy to pvp domination, it's important to remember a few points:
winning pvp domination isn't about getting the most kills. it's about dominating the caps.
4-5 of your party should head for the middle cap at the beginning of a match.
try to fight on-cap. it's actually a strategy to try to get you to waste time off-cap... especially if you are losing.
dying isn't the end of the world. even the guys with high end gear and enchants die.
and remember that you're there to have fun. probably the most important tip of all.
GCTR's Gear consist of some cheap rings and blue gear. Your argument isn't even valid ^_^. ( i love you too though)
And your point is? and yes i have sent GWF. I can't relate the effectiveness of sent builds and GF builds to the fact that DCs are good and viable in PvP, unlike what others said.
Ok, apparently you never played a DC.
AS gives 24% DR, combine with daily...you get 30%+ 24% thats 54% DR ...add them to your current DR...yep, you can cap DR on DC but here you are, talking about their dependence on Deflect xD.
My DC is the easiest class i ever played. That's just me though.
Oh really?
BiS for Sent is 2 piece titans ( 100k helm + 600k chest) and 2 piece imposing scrappers ( so cheap) + blue rings + blue neck + blue belt
1.6 M budget, you can fully gear your sent ( excluding enchants).
For PvE GWF, you have to pay 600k + for each piece of the gear set, and 700k+ on weapons.
For DC, Look at GCTRL's guide. The only expensive part is the nightmare icon and that's only because it has defensive slot.
About viability in PvP and PvE , it is a phenomena. You can't be 100% good in PVP and 100% good in PvE you will always have to sacrifice something.
That's why you make separate characters with separate gears.
That's not even true. Gearing a cleric for PvP is cheap and easy.
As easy as it is to be good. Pugs will be pugs. We could hand feed them strats builds and gear and they will find something to complain about
U R 2 E Z- SENT IV GWF undefeated 16k GS
FaceRoller- regen recovery TR (put on the shelf for now) 14k GS
Supreme CHAOS - IV GF (put on the shelf for now) 16k GS
White Khalifa- tene/hp/regen CW (retired) 11k GS (tene)
Death From Above- TANK ranger 16kGS
(all halfling everything)
Comments
When playing a DC, I don't expect to have the most kills in a match (although it's happened a few times), but I can say that I'm pretty much unkillable in a 1 vs 1 fight, or even 2 vs 1 (except pehaps against a good TR and CW working well together). So my objective is to hold points and prevent the other team from taking them.
They should finally separate PVP from PVE by changing mechanics, abilities and stats for PVP. Everquest 2 did the same with PVP, they reduced the effectiveness a lot of spells in PVP, they changed some mechanics of spells in PVP and they introduced new stuff like CC immunities only for PVP. Why can TRs kill you with 1-2 shots in this game in about 2 seconds? Why can someone CC you to death without you having a chance to do something? Why can one single class hold the beating of 4 players for minutes? Why can a class have a button that makes him immune to everything while he is the one that deals the highest single target damage in the game?
Everyone that just argues with "learn to play" or "play as a team" doesn't really understand the meta of PVP. No one can tell me that a Rogue class, that - if specced right can solo PVE BOSSES - has a right to stay unchanged in PVP.
What bugs me the most is that the classes at the moment mainly come with boosts. The GWF for example. If you play MMOs you know this kind of class. It is a berserk kind of class. Someone that goes wild and deals lots of damage to those around him. But other MMOs give berserks often big drawbacks. Often they have to sacrifice protection for damage or health for damage. In Neverwinter though they only gain a bonus, more hitpoints, more protection, no CC, more damage... Also in other games rogue's stealth is something that gives them the option to hide in shadows and then deal a powerful first strike which reveals their position. Often they are slower while stealthed, too. In Neverwinter stealth is more a permanent feature of a rogue. He can stealth while standing nose to nose to you and deal damage. That is not revealing his position (not even the wizard in this game has an invisible spell that is so strong!). Also stealth in Neverwinter is not for boosting a certain strike or is needed to activate an ability at all (like in other games you need to stealth to use certain abilities), it is a feature to hide almost permanently. On the other hand the only healer in game is only strong when he puts Def and Regen items on. Alone with his abilities he dies also in 1-3 seconds to any good TR or CW. Also the healers - unlike in others MMO I played before - are not really needed in PVP anyway. GWFs don't need healers, GFs don't need them, TRs hide in stealth anyway all the time and don't need them... most classes are so strong alone that a support class is not really needed.
Fix PVP and stop demanding punishments for leavers. I can only encourage more people to leave any one-sided PVP match or any match where a GWF can't be killed by your whole team or where unstealthing rogues permanently bug you. The more people leave matches the sooner Cryptic will understand that lots of people don't have much fun in PVP and that they need to adress the issues.
Well this is neverwinter. Not your other average mmo. So stop acting like it has to conform to the rest of them. The game is balanced when you are equally geared and skilled. The lack of one causes a misconception of "unbalanced" classes. I have every class at 60 geared and they all have pros and cons.
FaceRoller- regen recovery TR (put on the shelf for now) 14k GS
Supreme CHAOS - IV GF (put on the shelf for now) 16k GS
White Khalifa- tene/hp/regen CW (retired) 11k GS (tene)
Death From Above- TANK ranger 16kGS
(all halfling everything)
Proud rank 6 of: <Enemy Team>
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
You sound like an un-experienced PvP player, you need to level every class to 60 and understand their mechanics and full potentials in PvP before you start "stating facts". Or just watch videos of professional PvP players ( experienced) ones and then you can start ranting.
So far you sound clueless about so many things in PvP mechanics, and unfortunately, you aren't willing to read any pieces of advice concerning that matter either.
If you want to improve, you can check the class forums as there are countless guides about different strategies and mechanics for every class in PvP...but if you want to just rant and complain, then do what you please but it wont move you any further
No it isn't. Take for instance TR vs. CW. Even if they are of equal skill and gear, about 90% of the time, the TR will get the first shot in at the CW with Lashing Blade. So the CW already starts in at, at a minimum, an immediate half-health disadvantage. And from then on all the TR has to do is know how to use Impossible to Catch, Sly Flourish/Impact Shot, and dodge.
Sure the TR could slip up and then the CW would be able to perma-CC him and kill him. Sure that happens. But not against the good ones. The CW might also get lucky and dodge the initial Lashing Blade. But that is not *balance*, it is luck. (And a very fast Internet connection.)
The OP is right, TRs are designed to be able to do high burst damage on PVE bosses with zillions of hit points. So *of course* they are going to be unbalanced in PVP against regular players with ordinary amounts of hit points. Why do you think so many professional PVPers are TRs? Because the players have voted with their choices: they know TRs are overpowered and use that to their advantage.
And I am totally okay with OP TR's in PVP, actually, just as long as the OPness doesn't ruin the PVE experience for everyone else.
Just because there are a few great PVP CWs doesn't mean that the class as a whole is balanced against every other class. It's not.
Well if by tanking we mean surviving while drawing almost all of the attention of the opponent, then the fact the cw is the primary focus of the opponent, we only need to survive an adequate amount of time to adequately tank. I come in #1 or 2 on my pug teams consistently on my cw, and its not because I am that good at it. Imo, you fight on the node regardless of your class, unless your going to ambush someone on a blue node and can kill them and jump back on the node while it is still all blue.
Putting 1 opponent in choke and running around on the node doing nothing but dodging/pushing/dailying the other 3-4 counts as contesting the node and tying up the other team.
Jugger Conq GF
....
The way to catch a tr as a cw is to dodge once or twice with w, then quick reverse>dodge with s, put the cursor right behind you toon and choke. Odds are the attacks you dodged are the big ones, the tr will be directly behind you so when you s-dodge you end up behind HIM. A tr in choke is, imo, a soon dead tr.
That said, I think TR's are the bane of CWs but even so, the classes in pvp are a matter of rock-paper-scissors.
Jugger Conq GF
....
nah. couldn't be that.
I read yokihiro's post and had to comment. A GWF is NOT a bezerker. The barbarian (if it comes into NW) would be the bezerker. The GWF is the other side of the coin of the GF. BOTH have good defense. One goes further with the shield, the other picks a big weapon to beat people with. Neither one is about wild swinging. Takedown, flourish, weapon master strike, these are all abilities that point towards high level of skill. This means, that per player spec, the GWF can be tanky. The GF can be glass cannony and hit really hard. Because they are both pulled from a base class of fighter.
As for the stealth thing.. a true 'perma-stealth' rogue, can't stay in stealth forever. It's bait and switch > shadow strike > lurker assault, which can last long enough to allow those 2 to come off cool down. They generaully have ITC, so they can survive. Since if a rogue is nose to nose with you and go stealth.. guess what? you CAN target them. They are not invincible ninja that are completely invisible and beat you with impunity. Stealth is all about keeping away, hit and run moves. If they use ITC out of stealth, they're NOT immune. They have a high deflect chance. They can still die. They have died. They do resist CC, however it's also a 4 second time frame. For some that's enough, for others it's just a prelude of death.
Speaking of CC control bits, unstoppable AND ITC (along with duelist flurry) can be disrupted by 1 move from a GF. Terrorfying impact will knock anyone and everyone down. A GF blocking, a GWF in unstoppable, and a rogue in their CC immune setups. It takes some skill to hit with it, but it can happen.
As for the DC part, last part I'll comment on, they CAN be tough. They can heal while being tough. There's Gctrl, who took on 5 (the WHOLE TEAM that is) people beating on him at point. A DC takes skill to pull off, it's not a straight healer, not a straight dps or controller. They support, they pump resist and they suppliment healing. A poor DC can be ignored as they're useless. A good DC can become the primary target before the CW because of what they can do.
I would humbly repeat what others have said. Read up about the other classes. Watch videos. There's plenty from each class on youtube that shows the strength of those classes. How they deal 1 on 1, or even multi on 1. I hardly claim to be a great. I do know the painting of classes that you have done is far from the truth.
I sometimes play the sacrificial lamb too, but usually only when my team is so clueless that they have no idea what backcapping is or contesting home with the annoying perma/GWF. So I gotta go and throw some Ice Storms while looking ridiculously stupid as a backcapping CW, because yeah, nobody else would do it.
But am I good at this? Nah. Hell no. Any decent team will focus me in 2-3 secs easily.
As for playing on point, sometimes you can or should, sometimes you can't or shouldn't. If there's some GWF on point, your time is better spent sniping the DC/enemy CWs from afar, just an example. Yeah you should touch the point if it's red even if you're gonna die, but this is a desperate move. You can pretty much play on point rather effectively (against pugs) if you have a good DC with you. If you play against a PM/good players, not even a godly DC will save you from being focused.
My conclusion is that CWs are ranged snipers, not close range contesters. If you wanna win, you gotta utilize classes for their purpose, you don't ask the DC to DPS the enemy team down for example.
There's a reason there are no CW videos out there with mages stalling 2-3 enemies at point as a tactic... it's not our thing, and we shouldn't be asked to do it.
Just as I predicted, it took only 1 post for this argument to pop up
Yes they are immune. That's the whole point of ITC. They don't just have a "high deflect chance", they have a 100% deflect chance.
If ITC does not make a TR completely immune, then please present the CW encounter which can damage an ITC-enabled TR.
Wrong. You've clearly never played TR or faced enough TRs.
Deflection is only 50% damage reduction or 75% in the case of TR. I have often killed TRs through unstealthed ITC if they are low enough (and have no SF proc).
Then what will work on a TR while ITC is active?
Because I have read, in multiple places, that CWs shouldn't waste their encounters on a TR while ITC is active.
Blink x3. (10 char)
here is how it works yes deflect build and regen build rocks, have you seen a sentinel build or a guardian build with that aswell? it kicks *** on all classes!
next question why should the DC only be playable when you have tons of deflect so their is a % chance for you to survive a blow? it is downright stupid that you have to be so dependant on a rng and a extremely timed dodge against a foe you cannot see so its basicly luck! no classes are this dependant on chance! this needs to fixed asap.
also if you pile all the classes together the one with the toughest learning curve that gets the fewest point in pvp is also a dc.
yes you can do okay with full regen deflect gear all classes. you just have to farm absurds amount of astral to get some gear that basicly makes you useless outside of pvp.
I am by no means a **** in pvp, I played pvp in many games but the fact is cleric is simply not that good. their is not a single reason why clerics should be so hard to even get a litle payoff from when other classes can do half the work and still get more points.
Being on node, for me, comes from only having played gf before cw. I am still a nub
Yes, rock-paper-scissors, what is so outlandish about that? It should be predictable, it is generally true. Everyone with a pet class thinks the class that pwns it is OP. So all the classes are op? Look at the original post, pretty much saying every class vs cw is op. Yet others say they are so dangerous that the other party has to focus them.
Jugger Conq GF
....
One more mistake, its a 20,000% deflect chance you get when you pop itc + the % you already have. :P
But anyways on too the topic, imoh the pvp classes are pretty stable atm, like it's said above its pretty much a game of "Rock,Paper,Scissor". I'm satisfied with the devs there.
Instead of complaining about nerfs and buffs now, why don't you guys just hold on the trolling untill M2 comes out.
GCTR's Gear consist of some cheap rings and blue gear. Your argument isn't even valid ^_^. ( i love you too though)
And your point is? and yes i have sent GWF. I can't relate the effectiveness of sent builds and GF builds to the fact that DCs are good and viable in PvP, unlike what others said.
Ok, apparently you never played a DC.
AS gives 24% DR, combine with daily...you get 30%+ 24% thats 54% DR ...add them to your current DR...yep, you can cap DR on DC but here you are, talking about their dependence on Deflect xD.
My DC is the easiest class i ever played. That's just me though.
Oh really?
BiS for Sent is 2 piece titans ( 100k helm + 600k chest) and 2 piece imposing scrappers ( so cheap) + blue rings + blue neck + blue belt
1.6 M budget, you can fully gear your sent ( excluding enchants).
For PvE GWF, you have to pay 600k + for each piece of the gear set, and 700k+ on weapons.
For DC, Look at GCTRL's guide. The only expensive part is the nightmare icon and that's only because it has defensive slot.
About viability in PvP and PvE , it is a phenomena. You can't be 100% good in PVP and 100% good in PvE you will always have to sacrifice something.
That's why you make separate characters with separate gears.
That's not even true. Gearing a cleric for PvP is cheap and easy.
Yeah, CWs are dangerous, sure. If left alone they perma root/stun/slow people and do pretty good damage while also debuffing targets. They also build AP fast and if you let them cast a lot, you will see tens of Ice Knives or whatever else super-annoying daily.
And yes, anybody with a brain will focus them first because they are squishy-squish especially if not built for PvP (let's say halfling/deflect/HP+Con/regen stuff). Another problem with the CW is that most of our PvP feats are **** useless for PvE, so most don't bother. A dual spec would solve this.
As for rock-paper-scissors, it's a dumb system IMO. I'd rather have a very balanced system that takes all classes into consideration (including DCs, yes...), each class at approximatively the same levels of gear/skill (best PvPers should serve as a sample here for balancing purposes) should score 50% kills on 1 vs 1 duels against all other classes. This would be ideal in my opinion. Pure balance based on statistical, not empirical data.
It's very easy to notice somebody n00bing around...
Calling names is bad and lame, but if some guy that just hold the point against 3-4 others etc. etc. and looks like he knows what he's doing, and he tells you to do something like "go mid" or "backcap", you should do it, because they're probably way more experienced and have the team's best interest in mind, i.e. winning.
Keep in mind, you play with another 4 people, don't destroy their game by continually ignoring good advice and just being an embarrassment to your team. Improve and become a better player and pay attention to what dedicated PvPers say, they might have something useful for you. Stop being selfish and playing "your style", regardless of the impact that it might have on the team's chances to win. What's important is the win.
Why don't you just start to play good to get rid off these people? I've never had any "nub" calls to me (except butthurt kiddies after being killed a few times).
you're going to have differing play styles in pvp simply because some people are extremely competitive, some are there for fun and yet others are there just for the daily rewards. on the subject of trash talking/name calling, i generally turn off the zone and say channels when i'm pvping. it serves me no purpose. if there's someone in my party that wants to play commando, usually they're the only person talking. while there is a strategy to pvp domination, it's important to remember a few points:
enjoy!
As easy as it is to be good. Pugs will be pugs. We could hand feed them strats builds and gear and they will find something to complain about
FaceRoller- regen recovery TR (put on the shelf for now) 14k GS
Supreme CHAOS - IV GF (put on the shelf for now) 16k GS
White Khalifa- tene/hp/regen CW (retired) 11k GS (tene)
Death From Above- TANK ranger 16kGS
(all halfling everything)
Proud rank 6 of: <Enemy Team>
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]