I am starting to wonder if it is your goal to be argumentative with everyone on the forums.
By that logic, everyone on this thread is just arguing for the sake of arguing aswell. Because they tend to disagree and pointing out valid points, right?
I have opinion and i will speak them out, as long as i'm not breaking any rules, if you find it annoying that you are being disagreed with...just add me to your ignore list.
For skill it goes cw-tr-dc-gf-gwf for rotations and premades. The more mobile your role is the more skill involved basicaly
It depends in the situation of the match. I wouldn't take it as a standard.
Sometimes DC is more mobile than GWF, if the GWF is forced to cap a certain point for some time.
It also depends on what you are required to do while rotating, for a DC you are mainly rotating for support/heal..for a TR you are mainly rotating to kill.
Kind of a newbie and trying some pvp - is there any penalty for people leaving? In every match where my team lost so far there was someone that left as low as 5 minutes in, when the other team was winning (even if the advantage maintained is small).
Kind of a newbie and trying some pvp - is there any penalty for people leaving? In every match where my team lost so far there was someone that left as low as 5 minutes in, when the other team was winning (even if the advantage maintained is small).
Unfortunately, no. Don't ask why if you don't want to lose your sanity!
I guess esteena you and I will have to agree to disagree.
You say you main a DC and its so easy competitively. I'd love to see some videos of you playing your DC so that you may teach me something. Because I, like most people, agree that to be in the top tier of PvP playing a DC is not an easy thing to do.
I agree that it is hard....., to be excellent, with every single class in PvP.
But not everyone is excellent, and mediocre players can roll there face across the keyboard and still manage to kill other mediocre people, and cc someone to death, because this game as a whole is a faceroll of buttery easiness.
I played my cousins GF(lvl 60), in PvP..without ever having played a GF even once, and managed to take the #1 spot in back to back pug matches far surpassing anyone else's kills and points simply by smashing buttons. I honestly didn't even read the buttons, I just started pressing stuff. Whats that tell me? ..It tells me PvP is easy against pugs. The chances of me doing that in premade are all about 0...See my point here?
I have to agree with Alysin. Pug doesn't match premade of a good crew.
I normally play my DC in a DPS role. Either AoE, or if I have people hunting me (usually after killing them twice) I switch to a DoT route. This works just fine in regular pug matches. However when you get a solid team against you, that has the high gear/coordination, they'll eat you alive. I did one pre match that I died 61 times. I got 1 kill on my DC. We lost by less than 100 points difference. The main focus there was getting on point, AS, sunburst to knock them off and wait for respawn. I was in full heal spec then, to boost those who could live as long as possible.
Last night I scared a TR. pug vs pug. We stomped them to the point that the enemy team stayed in spawn. I offered 1v1, while in DoT mode on the DC. He came down, we started and I proceeded to chew through his health. Debuff + DoT + AS and seal on him to heal me, at the end of the fight, he died while he was still in stealth from the dots. I was fully healed. That's including after he crit me for 15k on a lashing blade from stealth.
Skill is so extremely relative to the ones you face that it's hard to quantify. That's part of what makes PVP the true endgame.
Regarding the "difficulty level" of various classes:
I main DC, but I also have a geared TR and GWF with 200+ hours of play on each, so I think I at least have a decent idea of each toon's relative difficulty.
Of these three, DC is the hardest for *me* in competitive premades. It requires me to pay a lot more attention to my team's positioning and demands that I track enemy encounters effectively compared to other classes. It's one thing to divine sunburst every 10 seconds and achieve some success, but it's quite another to use it judiciously in a consistent manner. If you aren't careful, you can screw up your team's rotations, waste divinity on targets that are CC immune, or fail to interrupt anything that would have damaged your teammates anyway. Understanding "when" to throw down a shield, anticipating burst to mitigate with divine armor, effective use of divine/non-divine break the spirit, etc actually requires me to use my brain. Maybe this requires thought for me because I'm "just terrible at games and need to L2P" or a "stupid nub," but I've certainly noticed a visible increase in my party's survivability as I've gotten better at some of the things I've mentioned.
GWF I've had a much easier time playing. There's a bit of skill in timing roars, takedowns, and ESPECIALLY unstoppable (particularly vs GF and CW), but the class mechanics allow you to make mistakes without it meaning certain death most of the time. I'm a terrible GWF, but I can still succeed at holding a node with success during premade matches in many cases.
One-shot TR is somewhere in between GWF and DC difficulty-wise in premades. If you screw up, you're pretty much dead, and there's definitely some thought and timing involved to ensure stealth is up at the right time, your critical overrun is procced before unloading LB/IS, your flurry jumps hit properly, and that you've forced the target to burn their dodges/block. Impact shot is the only true "skilless" power here in my opinion. Proc a critical overrun, throw an IS, do 8-11k if it crits + get an interrupt or stun either way, rinse and repeat. And yes, I'm a god-awful TR too.
Easiest class/build combo I've played BY FAR is the tenebrous perma TR. Just play keep-away, throw lots of daggers, use path of blade, flurry when you see an opening, and generally troll people to death.
Class difficulty might be player dependent in that some people are just naturally suited for some classes over others, but the above has been my experience with the classes I've played seriously so far.
DC is the hardest for *me* in competitive premades. It requires me to pay a lot more attention to my team's positioning and demands that I track enemy encounters effectively compared to other classes. It's one thing to divine sunburst every 10 seconds and achieve some success, but it's quite another to use it judiciously in a consistent manner. If you aren't careful, you can screw up your team's rotations, waste divinity on targets that are CC immune, or fail to interrupt anything that would have damaged your teammates anyway. Understanding "when" to throw down a shield, anticipating burst to mitigate with divine armor, effective use of divine/non-divine break the spirit, etc actually requires me to use my brain. Maybe this requires thought for me because I'm "just terrible at games and need to L2P" or a "stupid nub," but I've certainly noticed a visible increase in my party's survivability as I've gotten better at some of the things I've mentioned.
This is exactly the point I was trying to get at to a "T"...
Anyone can be good at a class in this game.
But being GOOD at a class, and excelling well beyond into the Elite range, requires things like what Bless is talking about.
Tell you what. Those DC's who just "randomly toss out AS and some Divine SB" every 10 seconds I kill generally in a matter of 1 single rotation on my TR.
DC's that are doing the things like Bless is talking about...in most cases I fight them just long enough for someone else to come play with them, while I go kill someone else. Because without CC, the Elite DC's in most cases, will 1 vs 1 against a TR all day long.
That's true. DCs will usually 1v1 or 1v2 BiS melees for enough time for help to arrive and finish the job. It's another story when you add a BiS CW in the mix. Anyway, having played my DC in countless PvP, I got to say that it's by far the most interesting and demanding class especially in PuGs. At least in premades people know that somehow need to protect you or take card of the targets that annoy you.
As far as class difficulty is concerned, I can't really decide which gave me a run for my money, but I got to say...that every one of them has its ups and downs. Having played all classes in PvP, I am very pleased with the balance I see. The only bad thing about PvP is the queuing system, which I think will be addressed.
I guess esteena you and I will have to agree to disagree.
You say you main a DC and its so easy competitively. I'd love to see some videos of you playing your DC so that you may teach me something. Because I, like most people, agree that to be in the top tier of PvP playing a DC is not an easy thing to do.
Me? making videos? i would rather kill myself than doing that o.o. I even hate using their softwares .
But not everyone is excellent, and mediocre players can roll there face across the keyboard and still manage to kill other mediocre people, and cc someone to death, because this game as a whole is a faceroll of buttery easiness.
I played my cousins GF(lvl 60), in PvP..without ever having played a GF even once, and managed to take the #1 spot in back to back pug matches far surpassing anyone else's kills and points simply by smashing buttons. I honestly didn't even read the buttons, I just started pressing stuff. Whats that tell me? ..It tells me PvP is easy against pugs. The chances of me doing that in premade are all about 0...See my point here?
If you did that as first timer GF, then i have good new for you, you are a natural talent on GF.
I would fail miserably on GF, i'm even having issues while leveling it up.
I guess it is a matter of playstyle, some people are better with some classes.
For me, DC is the easiest in my hands. Maybe for you it is another story. I find it easier for myself to use AS and divine sunburst people off the nodes while aiming my healing words to my allies, than twisting my wrist to block attacks as a GF. That's just me though
( I hope you wont spit your coffee again, you tend to spit it alot xD)
Me? making videos? i would rather kill myself than doing that o.o. I even hate using their softwares .
If you did that as first timer GF, then i have good new for you, you are a natural talent on GF.
I would fail miserably on GF, i'm even having issues while leveling it up.
I guess it is a matter of playstyle, some people are better with some classes.
For me, DC is the easiest in my hands. Maybe for you it is another story. I find it easier for myself to use AS and divine sunburst people off the nodes while aiming my healing words to my allies, than twisting my wrist to block attacks as a GF. That's just me though
( I hope you wont spit your coffee again, you tend to spit it alot xD)
Lol are we having the same conversation?
The only reason I am saying any of this is because you made it out to be so simple to play a competitive DC, yet said it was hard to play a GF/GWF......?
I don't have a hard time playing a DC..not at all. I do however know the difference between how I play my DC, and how my guild DC's play theirs. Because there DC's are their mains, and mine is now an alt. More practice = better player etc..
I have played and have extensive experience with GWF/GF/TR and I think the more difficult class to master would be a GF but its also probably the easiest to pick up and excel at.
as a GWF, I find that there is some skill involved in rotations, and unstoppable and ALOT of skill using in 1v1ing a GF on point. When I played Heimdall, I never had an issue with a GF 1v1 although I know I didnt play against some of the best GFs out there. Overall though when you play other classes, you really see how <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> OP unstoppable is. The overall issue is that it allows for bad GWFs to make major mistakes in scenarios and it compensates too much for bad game play. IMO unstoppable needs a change (not nerf) but a change.
A GWF is harder to pick up than a TR or GF, but its easier to master since its roll is more reliant upon gear. Once your geared and youve thoughtfully planned your character, if you have decent skill, you can play it well. The only exception to this would be non Sent GWfs in pvp (never met a good one) and 1v1s against GFs where THEN and really only then must you have pristine timing with rotations.
as a TR, I never played a perma, although I did play the "1 shot" build and I do have to say, to play THAT specific build optimally takes a TON of timing. Especially when you combo crit overrun/skulkers stealth bonus/and first strike for a massive LB crit it takes VERY precise timing. I played ITC flurry in games as well and playing against most classes was GG EZ mode. Honestly the mechanics of a TR are pretty easy to pick up, and also the guaranteed crit from stleath with lashing AND the fact you can out dps from range most ranged classes really makes the TR what I would call "OP".
in most cases the only class that can 1v1 a TR would be a tanky/regen GWF. a Good TR can take out almost any class. That said, playing the 1 shot build takes decent skill and from what ive seen a perma/tene TR probably takes the cake for cheese but I dont hate, just play and compensate around that....
Last, back to the GF. Playing a GF can be frustrating but very OP. The issues with GF are they are very immobile and slow. They cant dodge or move out of a TR flurry easy at all, their block mechanic really isnt not great against most classes who know and understand how it works so its easy to counter, and whenyou learn the GF rotation you can effectively counter it as well.
The flip side, being able to perma prone someone who you do catch off guard and when you learn to time blocks effectively so its not eaten by a bunch of weaker attacks but used against things like ice knife/ lashing blade/ shockeing execute/ takedown etc, it can be very fun.
Playing in groups can also take quite a bit of rotation planning as your most important job isnt to leet deeps but making sure you have a prone available to save the life of your DC (in most cases).
That all said, I would HIGHLY suggest and claim that playing a CW effectively and ontop of that, playing a DC very well arguably take more skill than any class I play...
On a total scale i would probably suggest something like this:
Hardest to play:
1) DC
2) CW
3) "1 shot" TR build.
4) GF (in high level play)
5) GWF
6) Perma TR
All of this will change come patch since now rangers will be introduced, and I think both melee and ranged specs will be viable so that adds two new builds. Also DC are getting a nice little buff so who knows....
Well it not rocket science. I have 2 GFs 2 GWFs 1 TR and have played with the best players in the game, who all pretty much say the same thing...
Well i have 1 DC 1 TR 1 GWF, and i main the 3 of them. And i have played with best players in game aswell, and they also pretty much say the same thing i say... that DC is so easy.
Does that make it an ultimate fact? no. Does that make it a personal preference? yes.
So please, stop stating it as a fact, especially if you never touched the class xD.
Comments
As a TR I need to pick and choose since the squishy factor is much much higher.
Waiting on Warlock!!!!
By that logic, everyone on this thread is just arguing for the sake of arguing aswell. Because they tend to disagree and pointing out valid points, right?
I have opinion and i will speak them out, as long as i'm not breaking any rules, if you find it annoying that you are being disagreed with...just add me to your ignore list.
Cheers.:o
It depends in the situation of the match. I wouldn't take it as a standard.
Sometimes DC is more mobile than GWF, if the GWF is forced to cap a certain point for some time.
It also depends on what you are required to do while rotating, for a DC you are mainly rotating for support/heal..for a TR you are mainly rotating to kill.
Unfortunately, no. Don't ask why if you don't want to lose your sanity!
PvP threads are always the most amusing
You say you main a DC and its so easy competitively. I'd love to see some videos of you playing your DC so that you may teach me something. Because I, like most people, agree that to be in the top tier of PvP playing a DC is not an easy thing to do.
I agree that it is hard....., to be excellent, with every single class in PvP.
But not everyone is excellent, and mediocre players can roll there face across the keyboard and still manage to kill other mediocre people, and cc someone to death, because this game as a whole is a faceroll of buttery easiness.
I played my cousins GF(lvl 60), in PvP..without ever having played a GF even once, and managed to take the #1 spot in back to back pug matches far surpassing anyone else's kills and points simply by smashing buttons. I honestly didn't even read the buttons, I just started pressing stuff. Whats that tell me? ..It tells me PvP is easy against pugs. The chances of me doing that in premade are all about 0...See my point here?
I normally play my DC in a DPS role. Either AoE, or if I have people hunting me (usually after killing them twice) I switch to a DoT route. This works just fine in regular pug matches. However when you get a solid team against you, that has the high gear/coordination, they'll eat you alive. I did one pre match that I died 61 times. I got 1 kill on my DC. We lost by less than 100 points difference. The main focus there was getting on point, AS, sunburst to knock them off and wait for respawn. I was in full heal spec then, to boost those who could live as long as possible.
Last night I scared a TR. pug vs pug. We stomped them to the point that the enemy team stayed in spawn. I offered 1v1, while in DoT mode on the DC. He came down, we started and I proceeded to chew through his health. Debuff + DoT + AS and seal on him to heal me, at the end of the fight, he died while he was still in stealth from the dots. I was fully healed. That's including after he crit me for 15k on a lashing blade from stealth.
Skill is so extremely relative to the ones you face that it's hard to quantify. That's part of what makes PVP the true endgame.
I main DC, but I also have a geared TR and GWF with 200+ hours of play on each, so I think I at least have a decent idea of each toon's relative difficulty.
Of these three, DC is the hardest for *me* in competitive premades. It requires me to pay a lot more attention to my team's positioning and demands that I track enemy encounters effectively compared to other classes. It's one thing to divine sunburst every 10 seconds and achieve some success, but it's quite another to use it judiciously in a consistent manner. If you aren't careful, you can screw up your team's rotations, waste divinity on targets that are CC immune, or fail to interrupt anything that would have damaged your teammates anyway. Understanding "when" to throw down a shield, anticipating burst to mitigate with divine armor, effective use of divine/non-divine break the spirit, etc actually requires me to use my brain. Maybe this requires thought for me because I'm "just terrible at games and need to L2P" or a "stupid nub," but I've certainly noticed a visible increase in my party's survivability as I've gotten better at some of the things I've mentioned.
GWF I've had a much easier time playing. There's a bit of skill in timing roars, takedowns, and ESPECIALLY unstoppable (particularly vs GF and CW), but the class mechanics allow you to make mistakes without it meaning certain death most of the time. I'm a terrible GWF, but I can still succeed at holding a node with success during premade matches in many cases.
One-shot TR is somewhere in between GWF and DC difficulty-wise in premades. If you screw up, you're pretty much dead, and there's definitely some thought and timing involved to ensure stealth is up at the right time, your critical overrun is procced before unloading LB/IS, your flurry jumps hit properly, and that you've forced the target to burn their dodges/block. Impact shot is the only true "skilless" power here in my opinion. Proc a critical overrun, throw an IS, do 8-11k if it crits + get an interrupt or stun either way, rinse and repeat. And yes, I'm a god-awful TR too.
Easiest class/build combo I've played BY FAR is the tenebrous perma TR. Just play keep-away, throw lots of daggers, use path of blade, flurry when you see an opening, and generally troll people to death.
Class difficulty might be player dependent in that some people are just naturally suited for some classes over others, but the above has been my experience with the classes I've played seriously so far.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
This is exactly the point I was trying to get at to a "T"...
Anyone can be good at a class in this game.
But being GOOD at a class, and excelling well beyond into the Elite range, requires things like what Bless is talking about.
Tell you what. Those DC's who just "randomly toss out AS and some Divine SB" every 10 seconds I kill generally in a matter of 1 single rotation on my TR.
DC's that are doing the things like Bless is talking about...in most cases I fight them just long enough for someone else to come play with them, while I go kill someone else. Because without CC, the Elite DC's in most cases, will 1 vs 1 against a TR all day long.
As far as class difficulty is concerned, I can't really decide which gave me a run for my money, but I got to say...that every one of them has its ups and downs. Having played all classes in PvP, I am very pleased with the balance I see. The only bad thing about PvP is the queuing system, which I think will be addressed.
Me? making videos? i would rather kill myself than doing that o.o. I even hate using their softwares
If you did that as first timer GF, then i have good new for you, you are a natural talent on GF.
I would fail miserably on GF, i'm even having issues while leveling it up.
I guess it is a matter of playstyle, some people are better with some classes.
For me, DC is the easiest in my hands. Maybe for you it is another story. I find it easier for myself to use AS and divine sunburst people off the nodes while aiming my healing words to my allies, than twisting my wrist to block attacks as a GF. That's just me though
( I hope you wont spit your coffee again, you tend to spit it alot xD)
Lol are we having the same conversation?
The only reason I am saying any of this is because you made it out to be so simple to play a competitive DC, yet said it was hard to play a GF/GWF......?
I don't have a hard time playing a DC..not at all. I do however know the difference between how I play my DC, and how my guild DC's play theirs. Because there DC's are their mains, and mine is now an alt. More practice = better player etc..
I have played and have extensive experience with GWF/GF/TR and I think the more difficult class to master would be a GF but its also probably the easiest to pick up and excel at.
as a GWF, I find that there is some skill involved in rotations, and unstoppable and ALOT of skill using in 1v1ing a GF on point. When I played Heimdall, I never had an issue with a GF 1v1 although I know I didnt play against some of the best GFs out there. Overall though when you play other classes, you really see how <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> OP unstoppable is. The overall issue is that it allows for bad GWFs to make major mistakes in scenarios and it compensates too much for bad game play. IMO unstoppable needs a change (not nerf) but a change.
A GWF is harder to pick up than a TR or GF, but its easier to master since its roll is more reliant upon gear. Once your geared and youve thoughtfully planned your character, if you have decent skill, you can play it well. The only exception to this would be non Sent GWfs in pvp (never met a good one) and 1v1s against GFs where THEN and really only then must you have pristine timing with rotations.
If you want to see my experience (highlights of which) is posted in this video I made a while ago. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEX1HJOt5Bc
as a TR, I never played a perma, although I did play the "1 shot" build and I do have to say, to play THAT specific build optimally takes a TON of timing. Especially when you combo crit overrun/skulkers stealth bonus/and first strike for a massive LB crit it takes VERY precise timing. I played ITC flurry in games as well and playing against most classes was GG EZ mode. Honestly the mechanics of a TR are pretty easy to pick up, and also the guaranteed crit from stleath with lashing AND the fact you can out dps from range most ranged classes really makes the TR what I would call "OP".
Here is my video of my playing a TR: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30Nq7uJSe1k
in most cases the only class that can 1v1 a TR would be a tanky/regen GWF. a Good TR can take out almost any class. That said, playing the 1 shot build takes decent skill and from what ive seen a perma/tene TR probably takes the cake for cheese but I dont hate, just play and compensate around that....
Last, back to the GF. Playing a GF can be frustrating but very OP. The issues with GF are they are very immobile and slow. They cant dodge or move out of a TR flurry easy at all, their block mechanic really isnt not great against most classes who know and understand how it works so its easy to counter, and whenyou learn the GF rotation you can effectively counter it as well.
The flip side, being able to perma prone someone who you do catch off guard and when you learn to time blocks effectively so its not eaten by a bunch of weaker attacks but used against things like ice knife/ lashing blade/ shockeing execute/ takedown etc, it can be very fun.
Playing in groups can also take quite a bit of rotation planning as your most important job isnt to leet deeps but making sure you have a prone available to save the life of your DC (in most cases).
That all said, I would HIGHLY suggest and claim that playing a CW effectively and ontop of that, playing a DC very well arguably take more skill than any class I play...
On a total scale i would probably suggest something like this:
Hardest to play:
1) DC
2) CW
3) "1 shot" TR build.
4) GF (in high level play)
5) GWF
6) Perma TR
All of this will change come patch since now rangers will be introduced, and I think both melee and ranged specs will be viable so that adds two new builds. Also DC are getting a nice little buff so who knows....
xD.
Well it not rocket science. I have 2 GFs 2 GWFs 1 TR and have played with the best players in the game, who all pretty much say the same thing...
Well i have 1 DC 1 TR 1 GWF, and i main the 3 of them. And i have played with best players in game aswell, and they also pretty much say the same thing i say... that DC is so easy.
Does that make it an ultimate fact? no. Does that make it a personal preference? yes.
So please, stop stating it as a fact, especially if you never touched the class xD.