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Cryptic OFFICIAL Feedback Thread: Great Weapon Fighter Iron Vanguard Paragon Path

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  • zacazuzacazu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,934 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    I did a test now. The problem of spinning strike / bleed is if you keep the daily on the target, the bleed does not extend. If you hit the target (critical) and go to another, the first suffers bleed usually .

    The last hit seems to interrupt the effect, I do not know.

    (Note: I do not know for sure tell if the avalanch of steel / bleed been fixed or have functioned normally.

    In any case, it works.)
  • zacazuzacazu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,934 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    feedback:daily:spinning strike,


    Ok, just now I realized how much the "spinning strike" is powerful in pve with this new bleed (saint bleed). I have one request: would it be possible to decrease the number of spins per target from 3, dividing the total damage at this rate?

    This would solve the problem of knowback since we would not need to keep fixed on the target to get a good damage.
  • lethehevnlethehevn Member Posts: 6 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    PTR new patch notes: End of animation cancelling on WMS.

    There goes 30%~ of the PvE dps.

    Well... that's... brutal.
  • xushin7xushin7 Member Posts: 147 Bounty Hunter
    edited November 2013
    Yeah I wasnt too keen on that change either.
  • zacazuzacazu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,934 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Feedback: Class Features: Weapon Master/Destroyer


    There is a simple reason I prefer, even then , the "sword master " and not the " iron vanguard " .

    Before I explain , let me say that I am not opposed changes in wms ( sometimes I did not want to ) . It coincides with the aesthetic I was looking for - a more " heavy " class. The previous change in the sure strike already indicates that the same will happen with the wicked strike soon.

    Well , if the " class time " will increase , it is necessary that the bonus of it , and that allows her to hit the " heavier " extends too.

    This change in WMS was a bit beyond what you should have calculated ; give a practical example : for me , I'm an "experienced player " , it is difficult to switch the reaping strike with wms and keep the destroyer / WM assets . I was testing with dummies and gave no other . I felt the same feeling when he left the module 1 , with the difference that I'm here , previously , saying in a reasonable manner what is wrong with the proposed change .

    Please 'll wish I hope will be taken into consideration : Reach for 5 sec bonus the destroyer / weapon master . Break would have a satisfactory solution to the avalanch of steel and other missteps . This cut in wms have "balanced " the changes in the class ... but if no other changes occur, it will eventually crippled again.
  • warpetwarpet Member Posts: 1,969 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    end of animation cancel is great no more exploiters who do this and come on every thread abaout gwf to say how gwf do big dps and how it is good
  • pando83pando83 Member Posts: 2,564 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Well, i agree. Animation cancel to increase WMS speed was not WAI, so it's just good that they fixed it.
    There have been other buffs, people just need to change the playstyle, stop relying on exploits and start playing the game the way it's meant to be played.
    Same goes for dungeons. Hopefully they'll stop the run to next campfire exploit and force people to actually play the dungeon.
  • ortzhyortzhy Member Posts: 1,103 Bounty Hunter
    edited November 2013
    Who cares about WMS when we have WS as vanguards! ./dancewave
  • zacazuzacazu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,934 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Edit: I have just review the change quietly, in fact, the change was even an improvement IN THEORY. in practice, it already took too long to be fixed, it is necessary to increase the time wm / destroyer.

    I currently do not iron the vanguard exactly why there is a delay in time, as I already mentioned. Please modify it. increase the time these skills and make the most sensitive viewing reaping strike.

    http://youtu.be/I0y-2_Xs3wA

    practical example: note that the second reaping strike I lose my bonus for a matter of milliseconds. (no piccolo theme this time... hahaha)

    Edit AGAIN: note that the wms not gave his second hit. Moral of the story: it is only slower, a bug, and that is perhaps the key problem remains ...

    anyway, increase the time of the skills mentioned would be great for old and mostly new players.
  • koppspaltakoppspalta Member Posts: 1
    edited November 2013
    anyone know that iron vanguard for gwf counts as tank in queuelist?
  • lethehevnlethehevn Member Posts: 6 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Quick summary so:

    List of known problems:

    - Iron Vanguard tree: animations doesn't match the class (sudden appearence of shields, clunky animations)
    - Iron Vanguard tree: Not intricate enough with the current state of GWF and GWF abilities

    - Weapon master strike: Clunky animation, ability underperforming, if a "correction" is to be made, it should go both ways
    - Animation cancelling: Losing the basic playstyle of the class (I call that basic because it takes 30min to discover by oneself) should either bring something new to the table (Mechanic?) or compensate greatly. If the class was having difficulties before, you can imagine what's coming.

    - Overall class: Lack of direction. Is it a tank? Is it a melee dps? is it a bruiser? an in&out brawler? Having the aptitude to do 4 things poorly is not "master of 4 aptitudes", it's master of none of them. If you're going for the "jack of all trades" kind of character, there should be something to be done in the passive trees to encourage more diversity.

    Overall feeling of the new path/testing so far/prediction:

    WMS debuff is currently bugged, wms strike speed is too low, the meat and potatoes of the destroyer spec is damaged. New tanking line from GF beneficing of "weak mark" aka soft taunt (marking removed on return hit) will (and should) force people into sentinel.
    That's not what you have intended (I mean, it shouldn't). All comes from one or many of those:

    - Paragon path doesn't bring "enough" diversity to the table
    - Paragon path doesn't mesh well enough with existing passives
    - Visual bugs for GF and GWF reduce greatly the immersion
    - Lack of class direction -> diluted class
    - Lack of purpose of the 3 trees. Destroyer should do vastly more damage, sentinel should permit more tanking and instigator more in&out brawling. Now you can do the 3 with little to none efficiency loss, pushing the players into one unified cookie-cutter spec instead of 3 pure and 4 "hybrid" that would at least feel different in purpose and efficiency.

    I propose:

    Paragon trees to be organized: 5/5 5/5 1 5/5 5/5 with the 1 being the "end tree" abilities we have now, buffed to have a great sense and be defining, slightly nerfed 2 first tiers, heavily buffed last 2 tiers.

    This way, one player could aim for 2 "defining abilities" and lose tasty buffs intended for a pure spec, or could go trispec with 1 defining ability, or pure build... the difference in gameplay and field specific efficiency would be more marked.

    Would it be against the tabletop rules? well, it isn't certainly against, and it would certainly be new and fresh.

    as for the class as a whole, it's the feeling of lenghty animations that's hindering overall for me. Either slow the whole thing down but make that the huge claymore swing actually hurt people BAD, or make some stats count toward swing speed. not a flat animation speedup and damage speedup, no, a true, d&d swing. you swing a slowass weapon? here have a huge damage spike. you swing that same thing super fast ? here, damage nerf. it's called swing dps and was mastered by other games for ages, and is so relevant to the fighters classes that it should be basic.


    Allow us to queue as tank or offtank or peeler or damage dealer. that way pugging won't find themselves with paperthin destroyer tanks or wet-noodle sentinels as main aoe source.

    thanks for reading.
  • zacazuzacazu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,934 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    the wms + sprint is ugly now, SLOW, difficult to control, but still has its "vulgar" usages (forward "fast" / "contour" of enemies / connection between encounters).

    *
    If the idea was to protect other atwills, ok. But I have already explained the problem on the class time (and reason for the IV to be unaffordable for many). In any case, the worst off was the connection between different atwills ... ie, the essential feature of debuff.


    Anyway, I'm tired of "doing intrigue", theorize about the changes and mimimi. Everyone who tested the preview gwf liked the results, with minor reservations about obsolete feats, bugs, and this change in wms.


    So why change now? Is there a chance of having partys 4 gwf? over the risk of partys with 4 cw?


    Anyway, I'm enjoying the preview. I'm counting the days to module2.
  • insanity842insanity842 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 6 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Feedback: Instigator's Vengeance

    3 Seconds cooldown if you get hit makes this feat nearly worthless. As GWF, i am mostly surrounded by mobs and there is no way i wont get hit for 3 seconds, and the main reason for this is that i want to get hit to build up determination. For solo-play its worthless at all. Remove the cooldown or redesign that skill again. If you want us to prevent incoming damage as instigator GWF, then please give us another source for determination (i would prefer that).

    For example, add one of this to Instigator's Vengeance feat:

    • 1-2% of determination bar everytime a team member gets hit (fits the old skill design)
    • 5-10% of determination bar for every second i dont take damage while in combat (fits the new skill design)
    • Steadfast Determination now grants 100% / 200% more determination (that would make this class feature useful)
  • ladysylvialadysylvia Member Posts: 946 Bounty Hunter
    edited November 2013
    Feedback: Instigator's Vengeance

    3 Seconds cooldown if you get hit makes this feat nearly worthless. As GWF, i am mostly surrounded by mobs and there is no way i wont get hit for 3 seconds, and the main reason for this is that i want to get hit to build up determination. For solo-play its worthless at all. Remove the cooldown or redesign that skill again. If you want us to prevent incoming damage as instigator GWF, then please give us another source for determination (i would prefer that).

    For example, add one of this to Instigator's Vengeance feat:

    • 1-2% of determination bar everytime a team member gets hit (fits the old skill design)
    • 5-10% of determination bar for every second i dont take damage while in combat (fits the new skill design)
    • Steadfast Determination now grants 100% / 200% more determination (that would make this class feature useful)

    Goddamit! The first in your list i would wish to 100%! Imagine a KV GF and a GWF! *.* As GWF you would get so fast determination, that you have to remember when the last non-unstoppable phase you had. xD

    Edit: No more exploiting Animation cancel(you got it official that's not intended!)
  • warpetwarpet Member Posts: 1,969 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Feedback: Instigator's Vengeance

    3 Seconds cooldown if you get hit makes this feat nearly worthless. As GWF, i am mostly surrounded by mobs and there is no way i wont get hit for 3 seconds, and the main reason for this is that i want to get hit to build up determination. For solo-play its worthless at all. Remove the cooldown or redesign that skill again. If you want us to prevent incoming damage as instigator GWF, then please give us another source for determination (i would prefer that).

    For example, add one of this to Instigator's Vengeance feat:

    • 1-2% of determination bar everytime a team member gets hit (fits the old skill design)
    • 5-10% of determination bar for every second i dont take damage while in combat (fits the new skill design)
    • Steadfast Determination now grants 100% / 200% more determination (that would make this class feature useful)

    i would not like to see determination buffs on insg they should be destroyers thing but i do agree new instigator vengance is useless it is even worse then before with gf in team u could gain stacks very fast but now u have 3 sec block
  • djmackendjmacken Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 62 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Agreed - in its current state the instigator capstone is less usefull than live.
  • insanity842insanity842 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 6 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    warpet wrote: »
    i would not like to see determination buffs on insg they should be destroyers thing but i do agree new instigator vengance is useless it is even worse then before with gf in team u could gain stacks very fast but now u have 3 sec block
    Destroyer already build determination with dealing damage. But as instigator, you should now avoid to get hit and you do not build determination from dealing damage. So if you dont take any damage to have a good uptime of the capstone, you will never go into unstoppable, because there is no source for building determination. And thats not what GWF should be, because without unstoppable, GWF is no more fun to play.

    Sentinel should get hit - tank like gameplay
    Destroyer can take hits without having a penalty of that, but can also build determination with damage dealt.
    Instigator should not get hit (capstone), cant build determination from damage dealt... how to get determination?
  • zacazuzacazu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,934 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Feedback: Instigator's Vengeance

    3 Seconds cooldown if you get hit makes this feat nearly worthless. As GWF, i am mostly surrounded by mobs and there is no way i wont get hit for 3 seconds, and the main reason for this is that i want to get hit to build up determination. For solo-play its worthless at all. Remove the cooldown or redesign that skill again. If you want us to prevent incoming damage as instigator GWF, then please give us another source for determination (i would prefer that).

    For example, add one of this to Instigator's Vengeance feat:

    • 1-2% of determination bar everytime a team member gets hit (fits the old skill design)
    • 5-10% of determination bar for every second i dont take damage while in combat (fits the new skill design)
    • Steadfast Determination now grants 100% / 200% more determination (that would make this class feature useful)


    to be honest, I've always had bad experiences with instigators; was more than the normal ******* quit buying fight only to win bonus. Result: he killed the group.

    I like the idea of reusing the steadfast, with an additional: unstoppable when the increases the time of control powers . would be VERY good for the team, fits with the vanguard iron, changes in wicked strike while 'staples' a feat.

    if solved the problems of the destroyer damage/ sentinel threat, the gwf would be "complete" in all its versions.
  • colonelwingcolonelwing Member Posts: 1,448 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Can we get lunging strike, instead of frontline surge? Frontline surge is not needed on a GWF, at all. How about anvil of doom instead of indomitable battle strike? Ibs, has the same animation as anvil of doom already, and it would suit the GF way better than the GWF. The current paragon setup is flawed, in any possible aspect. Even the at-will is awfully bad. At least give us cleave and not the bugged (it doesn't target properly, unlike sure strike for example) at-will - threatening rush.

    Sorry for the small rant, but i would feel really bad if the current PP setup makes it to live...

  • ladysylvialadysylvia Member Posts: 946 Bounty Hunter
    edited November 2013
    Can we get lunging strike, instead of frontline surge? Frontline surge is not needed on a GWF, at all. How about anvil of doom instead of indomitable battle strike? Ibs, has the same animation as anvil of doom already, and it would suit the GF way better than the GWF. The current paragon setup is flawed, in any possible aspect. Even the at-will is awfully bad. At least give us cleave and not the bugged (it doesn't target properly, unlike sure strike for example) at-will - threatening rush.

    You get what the paragon for the GF give the GF too.
  • djmackendjmacken Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 62 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    dunvan wrote: »
    anyone know that iron vanguard for gwf counts as tank in queuelist?

    This alludes to sorely missing feature in the queue system.

    GWF with proper spec needs to be able to queue as tank.
    Just as a DC should have the choice to queue as dps.

    So many other mmos provide this and it really needs to be added to make the queue system a success.

    Rift, SWTOR and many others have this...
  • colonelwingcolonelwing Member Posts: 1,448 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    ladysylvia wrote: »
    You get what the paragon for the GF give the GF too.

    I know, i was asking to change the skills. Because, they are all bad. They give us the worst skills instead of the good ones. :(

  • zacazuzacazu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,934 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    update:

    I redid everything he had ever done in preview. I must say I have had little impact, at least in solo adventures (but the wms is currently buggy, as shown in video).

    * What is now non-negotiable as far as the swordmaster to be feasible IV is the weapon master / destroyer with a longer time or more generous offer.

    Done this, + concert / strengthening of old animations + + changes in lagged feats+ NO NEW SURPRISES, the class is complete for december.
  • zacazuzacazu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,934 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Update again: ok, i really need wms / cancellation. It is impossible to work with this wms + reaping strike in pve
  • pkdeadly1pkdeadly1 Member Posts: 45
    edited November 2013
    is there any chance of getting aoe taunt effect on darling shout or some thing up its cd abit if needed not wanting a 24/7 taunt but 1 taunt would be nice and make gwf viable as real tank as is threat in tank like gear is still a big issue

    titan set is are tank set combo that with t2 tank items and mc weapon and you can not hold agro still
  • zacazuzacazu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,934 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Last try, hahaha:

    Feedback : feat: destroyer/focused destroyer.

    With the old wms I could trigger the destroyer (and keep it thanks to the focused destroyer) very quickly. Currently this will be difficult with the current wms and, for various reasons, to IV.

    A smarter to designate the system, and that would solve many setbacks old class (highly beneficial for pve, in pvp debatable) would replace the system of stacks per hit, stacks for a time.

    While the character was in combat over x seconds would generate one stack, and when he finally had all the bonus would leave at the end of the fight.

    To this extent, the "focused destroyer" could be a way to generously decrease the time between stacks and even add extra damage each, keeping the distance from the sentinel / instigator.

    Accumulate stacks with wm is still relatively easy. A generous increase in bonus time would be sufficient.


    Feedback: power : Reaping strike:


    If the idea is to make the heaviest class, a generous improvement should occur in other atwills aoe. As only use reaping strike, give my vote to the same

    Simple points:

    1 - the loading is currently unbearably slow without the support of the WMS. unusable withThreatening Rush. It is vital to decrease it both ways.

    2 - given the time of attack, not critical damage / debuff is negligible. Or increases the REAL damage or critical chance (for the second vote).

    3-I just did not notice any extra determination gain on damage taken. I do not know if I ask for feedback or bug.

    obs: independent review of the changes in the WMS, the proposed changes are improvements that allow a number of constructions for pve which currently only work in theory. with wms back, we would have a perfect swordmaster and a reasonable IV.
  • zacazuzacazu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,934 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Bug: power: reaping strike.

    definitely take damage while charging reaping strike does not generate extra determination (or the increase is negligible). neither live nor in the preview.
  • kaylos29kaylos29 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Bug: Feat: Deep Gash

    Currently on Preview, a larger damage attack produces a larger DoT from Deep Gash. For instance if I proc deep gash off of Sure Strike, the attack may do 150* damage per tcik approximately. If I crit a Indominatable Battle Strike, the DoT may do 600 per tick. The issue is, if I immediately proc Deep Gash again from say Sure Strike, it immediately overwrites the damage from the previous IBS DoT. So you lose damage going from a 600 per tick DoT to a 150 per tick DoT.
    Mindflayer - Exodus
    Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
    Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
    Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
  • zacazuzacazu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,934 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Just to recap, because I'm really worried about the future of the class.

    Beta : had low damage , but good resistance , boundlessness of target speed ( WMS ) and overproduction of ap / slam .

    Module 1 : only left us the strength and speed ( WMS ) , taking in , depending on the build , more than 100 % of the damage output in pve . Nothing was given to us in return.

    Module 2 : are giving good damage related to critical ( and a defensive debuff ) , on the other hand, took the cancellation / wms . In this sense we only have good resistance and good critical damage . A unique feature just left the class , and it was added a new one.

    The current problem is that the class was not designed to have large critical chance , and how it is slow now , the critical mass will be lower . It is extremely important to create ways to exponentially increase the critical chance of the class - at least in pve - otherwise it will become unplayable.

    I'm currently having " lucky " with my critics in the preview . Please do with this " luck " is measured in build .
  • zacazuzacazu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,934 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    ps: destroyer is the only way to not have any feat on increased critical chance. seems unfair given the fact that we share our best bonus currently, and are blocked by a broken Atwill and other slow (swordmaster / wms-reaping strike).

    being the way that suffers most because of the consequent nerfs "wonderful builds" of sentinels facing pvp, the setting could not be more bleak.

    and by the looks of the other classes are having "lucky" with the critics in preview ...


    something tells me this will be my last week with this game. I hope to "burn" my tongue.

    Now, yes, definitely, irrevocably this is my last post in this topic.

    * for better or worse I wash my hands.
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