Bug: Feat: Armor Specialization Feat is supposed to increase Armor Class and Defense by 5/10/15%. This bonus is not showing up on the character sheet and has no effect when combo with the Feat: Steely Defense (adds 4/8/12/16/20% of your defense to your power).
Checked in the Swordmaster Paragon path, have not checked in the Iron Vanguard paragon path.
You should read the description carefully. 'Increases the effectiveness of Armor Class and Defense by 5/10/15%.' It's quality not quantity increase. So the feat Steely defense has nothing to do with this! And i find it okay, that it isn't displayed. So other don't see that you use this feat. It should remain so. Or max that you see the effect of the feat and other not on the sheet.
Feedback: General This is a step in the right direction for PvE, but a step in the wrong direction for PvP.
+GWFs need a very good PvE boost.
-Nobody wants more prone CCs in PvP. Either revise how this skill works for the GWF, or set a cc limit timer for players.
Just converting a few of the game's knockdowns to stuns or dazes (like the one's we experience from NPC's, which let us perform at-wills but not special abilities) in PvP would balance it out a bit.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
Just converting a few of the game's knockdowns to stuns or dazes (like the one's we experience from NPC's, which let us perform at-wills but not special abilities) in PvP would balance it out a bit.
I don't find any reason that any of the current skill fit the reason to be a stun or daze. The animation don't fit it. The description not and overall the classes not. And setting a cc-timer make GWF even stronger. How you can kill a sentinel ultra strong GWF? You use smash downs. But you really need teamwork for this and without a 100% CC-time, the GWF will contest against 3+ good player too and not as it is now only against 3+ inexperienced player.
I don't find any reason that any of the current skill fit the reason to be a stun or daze. The animation don't fit it. The description not and overall the classes not. And setting a cc-timer make GWF even stronger. How you can kill a sentinel ultra strong GWF? You use smash downs. But you really need teamwork for this and without a 100% CC-time, the GWF will contest against 3+ good player too and not as it is now only against 3+ inexperienced player.
Yet GWF are the most CC immune class in the game already. Adding a timer wouldn't change much since GWFs can already pop unstoppable and never have to worry about CC. Adding a CC timer would only help every other class, and the GWFs gameplay will stay almost the same.
Edit: Additionally they should change the animation for FS anyways. Considering the GWF doesn't have a shield, and hence could give it slightly different effects.
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Yet GWF are the most CC immune class in the game already. Adding a timer wouldn't change much since GWFs can already pop unstoppable and never have to worry about CC. Adding a CC timer would only help every other class, and the GWFs gameplay will stay almost the same.
Edit: Additionally they should change the animation for FS anyways. Considering the GWF doesn't have a shield, and hence could give it slightly different effects.
If you think so. He can't pop unstoppable on every CC. That's the reason why a 100% GWF can get killed without heavy DDs. And how it would help other classes? As it really matter if a Tr get chained or CW. Only DC would benefit from this, but make them more stronger, that without heavy DDs they go immortal. The CC from GWF can most time be avoided. Only with FS they have a real chance to land with all CCs. So the system itself isn't broken, it's the stupid dev decision to give them the paragon path of GF to gain more CC-skills!
If you think so. He can't pop unstoppable on every CC. That's the reason why a 100% GWF can get killed without heavy DDs. And how it would help other classes? As it really matter if a Tr get chained or CW. Only DC would benefit from this, but make them more stronger, that without heavy DDs they go immortal. The CC from GWF can most time be avoided. Only with FS they have a real chance to land with all CCs. So the system itself isn't broken, it's the stupid dev decision to give them the paragon path of GF to gain more CC-skills!
I am a GWF. That's pretty much all I am.
I have so many options to avoid CC. I've got CC immunity with Unstoppable. I've got movement-related CC immunity with sprint. I've even got a dodge with mighty leap. I don't usually get taken up by CC at all, and I simply know better than to get pinned by a couple GF's.
That said, I not only have good application of prone with Iron Vanguard (adding an encounter which prones and another daily to our super fast encounter Takedown and our current dailies of Avalanche of Steel and Savage Advance; oh, did we mention we now have higher AP generation again?), but I am far more mobile than any other player on the battlefield with the new at-will, added to my own capabilities.
Oh, and let's also take into account that GWF prone abilities, unlike most GF, don't generally have a knockback function attached, meaning the split micro-second after you get hit prone we can begin applying damage.
You WILL see us hitting more people with prone. Put a couple GWF's or a GWF/GF on the battlefield with some DC's, and you're going to see much more pinball moments for OTHER CLASSES.
My suggestion, is convert Takedown from a knockdown to a daze, but only in PvP. It's got a super fast timer, it doesn't push away the target from the melee fighter, and if I miss it recharges in three seconds or so. And the animation, of me hitting you on the head with the pommel of my sword, could easily knock you silly.
Avalanche of steel can be easily avoided, and is more about scaring others and becoming immune for a few seconds than applying CC. Anybody caught in it deserves to be placed on their face.
Savage Advance trades a lot of damage with the other dailies for a single-target strike, but is super fast animation that again puts us right on our target who is laying on the ground. Maybe after the initial charge, the target gets dazed for a few seconds instead of slapped all the way to the ground.
It's not that I won't use the mechanics given to me for all they are worth. It's that I'm not the only GWF out there, especially in PvP, and it's only going to get harder for other classes. Which means more complaints about GWF. Which means a nerf down the road, which could mean they actually get it right and address the issue, or they go and nerf our AP generation again or our swords damage output, and completely wreck the class.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
My suggestion, is convert Takedown from a knockdown to a daze, but only in PvP. It's got a super fast timer, it doesn't push away the target from the melee fighter, and if I miss it recharges in three seconds or so. And the animation, of me hitting you on the head with the pommel of my sword, could easily knock you silly.
this is very bad idea takedown is one of few good pvp skills and would ruin any chance to pvp as swordmaster if u ask me they need to redone frontline at gwf so it dose not prone but hits 2 times more targets this would fit more in role of aoe class and fix cc problmes since it is very easy to prone ppl with frontline and once u make this it is game over for low hp classes like is atm when gf hit it low hp buildes are cc locked and gone
Takedown means takedown. (to the ground) otherwise it would be called daze-stand?
Mighty leap is not a dodge + nobody uses it. The deflect addon on spirnt sounds good, but nobody uses it.
I'm still wondering what your agenda is. I think your build is strange, maybe that's why you post all these crazy claims?
Takedown means takedown. (to the ground) otherwise it would be called daze-stand?
Mighty leap is not a dodge + nobody uses it. The deflect addon on spirnt sounds good, but nobody uses it.
I'm still wondering what your agenda is. I think your build is strange, maybe that's why you post all these crazy claims?
Mighty Leap is a dodge. At this point in time, not in the upcoming module. Has been since the game went live.
Sprint currently is immune to movement CC's, and will ignore many that would otherwise immobilize you. Same as Mighty Leap, been there since the game went live.
And my build is actually multiple. I am currently running two level 60's, with a plan to add in a third. I have a destroyer who will be a swordmaster destroyer after module 2. He runs a valiant armor set with rank 7's, a greater thunderhead, and I'm currently building a greater lightning attachment to replace his lesser soulforge.
My second is a full sentinel, who will be converted to a Iron Vanguard Sentinel with module 2. I'm just now gearing him out, and am running a split set of Vigilant/Titan with rank 5's, and weapon and armor attachments to come.
As soon as he's got full boons, I'll throw another up, I think. This one a full instigator. With the two I now have, I can be found in Arena, dungeons, and Gauntlegrym. My poor guild may be no more, but I'm still here.
Oh: Those two GWF's are on top of the six other characters I currently have, minus the CW and GF that I have deleted due to frustrations or to make room for other ideas.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
My suggestion, is convert Takedown from a knockdown to a daze, but only in PvP. It's got a super fast timer, it doesn't push away the target from the melee fighter, and if I miss it recharges in three seconds or so. And the animation, of me hitting you on the head with the pommel of my sword, could easily knock you silly.
this is very bad idea takedown is one of few good pvp skills and would ruin any chance to pvp as swordmaster if u ask me they need to redone frontline at gwf so it dose not prone but hits 2 times more targets this would fit more in role of aoe class and fix cc problmes since it is very easy to prone ppl with frontline and once u make this it is game over for low hp classes like is atm when gf hit it low hp buildes are cc locked and gone
I get your point, and don't necessarily disagree. In PvP, Takedown is one of my primary, go-to abilities. It's the first ability I fit in any pvp scenario, and gives my GWF alot of his power (even my sentinel).
That said, prone is the single most powerful form of CC in the entire game. And Takedown is the single-most powerful ability in the game by that estimation. It's nearly instant in animation, recharges quickly (almost instantly by PvP standards if you miss), and puts your opponent at your feet, where a melee fighter like us can instantly start applying damage.
There's a reason we all use it.
So maybe adjusting how our frontline surge works against the GF's is the way to go. Maybe my suggestion of changing Takedown's effect only in PvP is a way to go. Maybe an internal cooldown timer which prevents any one player from being knocked prone more than once every three seconds (starting at the end of the full animation) is the way to go.
Or maybe nothing needs changed. I just sense that the last option isn't going to be the case once we see the good GWF's get in full synergy with Iron Vanguard.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
I get your point, and don't necessarily disagree. In PvP, Takedown is one of my primary, go-to abilities. It's the first ability I fit in any pvp scenario, and gives my GWF alot of his power (even my sentinel).
That said, prone is the single most powerful form of CC in the entire game. And Takedown is the single-most powerful ability in the game by that estimation. It's nearly instant in animation, recharges quickly (almost instantly by PvP standards if you miss), and puts your opponent at your feet, where a melee fighter like us can instantly start applying damage.
There's a reason we all use it.
So maybe adjusting how our frontline surge works against the GF's is the way to go. Maybe my suggestion of changing Takedown's effect only in PvP is a way to go. Maybe an internal cooldown timer which prevents any one player from being knocked prone more than once every three seconds (starting at the end of the full animation) is the way to go.
Or maybe nothing needs changed. I just sense that the last option isn't going to be the case once we see the good GWF's get in full synergy with Iron Vanguard.
Wrong way of thinking. If you have no intention on getting stunlocked, avoid the initial hit. It's not that hard. GWF with your version of takedown would be useless. The point of a takedown is to ground an opponent so you can pound it's face in.
Wrong way of thinking. If you have no intention on getting stunlocked, avoid the initial hit. It's not that hard. GWF with your version of takedown would be useless. The point of a takedown is to ground an opponent so you can pound it's face in.
Hmm. I'm not coming off clearly here.
I get that it's the point of takedown. I get why, in our English language, the combination of the words 'take' and 'down' are put together. Thank you for your attempt to clarify these things for me, but I assure you, I've kept up.
What I am warning of right now, is that we'll have too much applicable CC. This will in turn get us nerfed. Again. This nerf, since it's coming from Cryptic, will probably be aimed at something remotely related to us having too much applicable CC, but instead of being a balance pass, will completely remove something important to us.
They'll take away takedown's damage, or increase it's recharge timer by 10 seconds. They'll nerf AP generation again. They'll make Iron Vanguard only affect one or two enemies. SOMETHING illogical.
And all because it just isn't any fun for our enemies to get hit with prone after prone.
Sure, avoid the stun lock in the first blow. But players are already complaining about our flourish stun and takedown combo's in live. What the heck will the do against us when this module hits? It'll be the next best thing to a protest march, I promise you.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
I am still struggling to see where an Iron Vanguard is getting all of this "extra" cc from. Replace Stunning Flourish, 2 second stun, with Reinforced Surge, a 2 second Prone. Frontline is superior because it is faster to get off and you can attack within the first second of the CC unlike flourish. It also has about a 50% longer cooldown. My Flourish is arounda 13 second cooldown vs a 19 second cooldown for Frontline on test. We gain Indom Str, but lose Crescendo. Crescendo is a massive damage attack with a long stun followed by a prone you can use to continue attacking your target in. Indom Str is a strong, but weaker damage attack, that basically punts our opponent to where you need to actually sprint to them to continue attacking.
Both have uses, and I do think Iron Vanguard is superior to Swordmaster for PvP. But that is because of threatening rush + the powerful challenge feat. Also Trample the fallen could find uses as well. I thought Ferocious Reaction would be good, but the feat is in the destroyer tree, basically making sure it's not nearly as strong for a sentinel as it might have been.
Given the nerf to Tenebrous, I think what you are going to see is Sentinel strength in pvp fall somewhere between where Tenebrous GWFs currently are, and non-Tenebrous GWFs are right now.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
I am still struggling to see where an Iron Vanguard is getting all of this "extra" cc from. Replace Stunning Flourish, 2 second stun, with Reinforced Surge, a 2 second Prone. Frontline is superior because it is faster to get off and you can attack within the first second of the CC unlike flourish. It also has about a 50% longer cooldown. My Flourish is arounda 13 second cooldown vs a 19 second cooldown for Frontline on test. We gain Indom Str, but lose Crescendo. Crescendo is a massive damage attack with a long stun followed by a prone you can use to continue attacking your target in. Indom Str is a strong, but weaker damage attack, that basically punts our opponent to where you need to actually sprint to them to continue attacking.
Both have uses, and I do think Iron Vanguard is superior to Swordmaster for PvP. But that is because of threatening rush + the powerful challenge feat. Also Trample the fallen could find uses as well. I thought Ferocious Reaction would be good, but the feat is in the destroyer tree, basically making sure it's not nearly as strong for a sentinel as it might have been.
Given the nerf to Tenebrous, I think what you are going to see is Sentinel strength in pvp fall somewhere between where Tenebrous GWFs currently are, and non-Tenebrous GWFs are right now.
The point on the prone is that the animation is the longest. Flourish is only a 1 second stun unless you take the instigator path. At which point your character is still standing and may begin to react, or you can hit unstoppable and cancel the stun early. It has a decent range and damage output, but your character is locked in the animation and you can be 'reversed'.
Any Iron Vanguard GWF will be able to apply the three second prone (with standing animation), from a decent range. This prone can only be avoided; it cannot be cancelled.
I could easily change out Indomitable strength for crescendo, but I'm not worried about either one. I've used Crescendo alot, and eventually traded it outright for Savage Advance, which is an altogether weaker daily but far quicker on the animation and essentially another encounter. I probably won't be picking up Indomitable Strength one way or another, unless it's for certain PvE occasions.
As far as the assessment on class features: I'm more prone to use Bravery and Ferocious Reaction, and take the 15% bleed and Improved Ferocious Reaction. Even for my live Sent builds, I took two outside lines with Unstoppable Recovery and Deep Gash. I am now simply going to drop Student of the Sword completely (a sad moment) to get the extra survivability.
If I'm testing out in dungeons and PvP and don't need that extra survivability, I might eventually swap back to Student of the Sword.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
Takedown means takedown. (to the ground) otherwise it would be called daze-stand?
Mighty leap is not a dodge + nobody uses it. The deflect addon on spirnt sounds good, but nobody uses it.
I'm still wondering what your agenda is. I think your build is strange, maybe that's why you post all these crazy claims?
You really need to speak for yourself instead of saying nobody uses it..
The new path is much stronger for sentinels.
Threatening rush to mark groups and gap closer plus 15% damage to marked opponents is just a flat 15% increase to damage.
Frontline surge is much more powerful than flourish, there is no comparison. Knock 3 people prone vs 1 person stun for 1 sec? plus it generates alot of AP. Not to mention trample the fallen.
Just changing these things will create more CC and much more DPS. Try it, the difference is obvious.
For other builds this path may not be nearly as good, but I cant see any sentinels not going this way.
Think about the GFs that have knocked you prone repeatedly, well now the GWFs have the same abilities so yes there will be alot of whining.
The new path is much stronger for sentinels.
Threatening rush to mark groups and gap closer plus 15% damage to marked opponents is just a flat 15% increase to damage.
Frontline surge is much more powerful than flourish, there is no comparison. Knock 3 people prone vs 1 person stun for 1 sec? plus it generates alot of AP. Not to mention trample the fallen.
Just changing these things will create more CC and much more DPS. Try it, the difference is obvious.
For other builds this path may not be nearly as good, but I cant see any sentinels not going this way.
Think about the GFs that have knocked you prone repeatedly, well now the GWFs have the same abilities so yes there will be alot of whining.
the ap gain from frontline surge is currently bugged, it will be toned down shortly
It drops 3 people does more damage and triggers trample the fallen there is no comparison to flourish.
Try it on preview shard.
Frontline surge then threatening rush to close gap and mark then IBT then laugh.
Even if the AP gain is reduced this will still be the combo for sentinels. It does way more damage and has good control.
I dont know if a sentinel spec can be viable in T2 dungeons. Marking groups with threatening rush is good but not sure if they can hold agro on a group. Surviveability should be no problem but agro still may be too low. Have not tested.
does this mean GWF in this Spec will be using Swords/shields? or will it still be 2h weapons?
In Iron Vanguard, they will still only have the two-handed weapons. This works well, except for one animation which has us charging in with our lead arm, with a glowing shield-like effect in front of it. The other animations have no noticeable problems.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
Did ask before, can someone answer if Vanguard GWF will count as a Tank in queues? It is kinda important for a single player! TY
What do you mean? As in the way players treat the role, or is there some hard-coded programing which tries to balance queue's to have different roles that I am unaware of?
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
Unless you enter the queue with a pre-made full squad, the queue tries to match each squad with a GF and a DC. I'm sure this is what ortzhy was referring to.
The PWI info-fox formerly known as Mayfly - Dreamweaver
Unless you enter the queue with a pre-made full squad, the queue tries to match each squad with a GF and a DC. I'm sure this is what ortzhy was referring to.
I'm not sure if I've ever picked up a GF in a PUG. Weird.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
What do you mean? As in the way players treat the role, or is there some hard-coded programing which tries to balance queue's to have different roles that I am unaware of?
If i use the que system for a skirmish or a dungeon as a GWF i'must wait alot of time while if i que like a GF is like instant pop, even faster then for a DC.., that made me conclude that GWF is treated like a dps while GF as a tank in match making even tho GWF and GF do exactly the same thing. I am hoping that now GWF will have the same status as a GF and that was what i've wanted to know.
Unless you enter the queue with a pre-made full squad, the queue tries to match each squad with a GF and a DC. I'm sure this is what ortzhy was referring to.
from what I saw there will not be more or priority for dc or gf ... which will be really fun.
but the fact of this priority for gf - I did not know existed - explains a lot and closes the old discussion: "gwf in this game was dps or defender?" ... hahah.
I'm just kidding. the gwf is very good for both now.
If i use the que system for a skirmish or a dungeon as a GWF i'must wait alot of time while if i que like a GF is like instant pop, even faster then for a DC.., that made me conclude that GWF is treated like a dps while GF as a tank in match making even tho GWF and GF do exactly the same thing. I am hoping that now GWF will have the same status as a GF and that was what i've wanted to know.
yes!
I hope the GWF NEVER ever count as tank. That would replace the Gf.
I hope the GWF NEVER ever count as tank. That would replace the Gf.
How? Is the game's design so limited that there can be only one tank? I don't believe so.
GF and GWF mechanics are significantly different that it allows two very different playstyles and types of players (as I'm sure we can all agree that not everyone plays the exact same way) to fulfill the same role.
My tank of a GWF is very mobile, but has to absorb or deflect a lot of damage. The more damage I absorb, the more unstoppable I get. But my deflect is also very high. In the end, with the threat changes in this release and with Iron Vanguard/Sentinel, I seem to be able to apply just as much tank as a GWF, but using my mobile/active playstyle. I understand completely that my style of play doesn't suit everyone, and have seen far too many GWF's who are incapable of applying damage and manipulating their tank as well as I can, and who subsequently feel the class is broken because of it.
I don't play a GF due to the lack of mobility. I recognize their tank is more based on base blocking and absorption with high HP totals. Effective HP. But the overall slower movement, more reliance on encounters and at-wills for activity, and 'plodding' or 'cumbersome' feel the class has does not suit me well. I respect that it suits others perfectly, and I respect their ability in a group and their performance level overall. I cannot play a GF as well as many others, but I do not feel the class is underpowered or broken because of it.'
Both classes have the option to be more than a tank, however. Damage and CC application stand out greatly. AOE and single-target capabilities are pretty broad in both. They have much in common, but appeal to completely different players.
Where is that a flaw?
I'll argue the only argument I can find with having two classes stand so solidly as tanks: most high-end content doesn't require tanking. Low and mid end-game, sure. Even two tanks sometimes. But once players adapt and are capable of predicting AOE's, shuffling threat, and planning for predictable AI, tanking becomes unneccessary. At which point, two classes become unnecessary, not just one.
That's not bad class design. That's bad game design.
And to Zacazu:
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
Comments
You should read the description carefully. 'Increases the effectiveness of Armor Class and Defense by 5/10/15%.' It's quality not quantity increase. So the feat Steely defense has nothing to do with this! And i find it okay, that it isn't displayed. So other don't see that you use this feat. It should remain so. Or max that you see the effect of the feat and other not on the sheet.
This is a step in the right direction for PvE, but a step in the wrong direction for PvP.
+GWFs need a very good PvE boost.
-Nobody wants more prone CCs in PvP. Either revise how this skill works for the GWF, or set a cc limit timer for players.
Just converting a few of the game's knockdowns to stuns or dazes (like the one's we experience from NPC's, which let us perform at-wills but not special abilities) in PvP would balance it out a bit.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
I don't find any reason that any of the current skill fit the reason to be a stun or daze. The animation don't fit it. The description not and overall the classes not. And setting a cc-timer make GWF even stronger. How you can kill a sentinel ultra strong GWF? You use smash downs. But you really need teamwork for this and without a 100% CC-time, the GWF will contest against 3+ good player too and not as it is now only against 3+ inexperienced player.
Yet GWF are the most CC immune class in the game already. Adding a timer wouldn't change much since GWFs can already pop unstoppable and never have to worry about CC. Adding a CC timer would only help every other class, and the GWFs gameplay will stay almost the same.
Edit: Additionally they should change the animation for FS anyways. Considering the GWF doesn't have a shield, and hence could give it slightly different effects.
If you think so. He can't pop unstoppable on every CC. That's the reason why a 100% GWF can get killed without heavy DDs. And how it would help other classes? As it really matter if a Tr get chained or CW. Only DC would benefit from this, but make them more stronger, that without heavy DDs they go immortal. The CC from GWF can most time be avoided. Only with FS they have a real chance to land with all CCs. So the system itself isn't broken, it's the stupid dev decision to give them the paragon path of GF to gain more CC-skills!
I am a GWF. That's pretty much all I am.
I have so many options to avoid CC. I've got CC immunity with Unstoppable. I've got movement-related CC immunity with sprint. I've even got a dodge with mighty leap. I don't usually get taken up by CC at all, and I simply know better than to get pinned by a couple GF's.
That said, I not only have good application of prone with Iron Vanguard (adding an encounter which prones and another daily to our super fast encounter Takedown and our current dailies of Avalanche of Steel and Savage Advance; oh, did we mention we now have higher AP generation again?), but I am far more mobile than any other player on the battlefield with the new at-will, added to my own capabilities.
Oh, and let's also take into account that GWF prone abilities, unlike most GF, don't generally have a knockback function attached, meaning the split micro-second after you get hit prone we can begin applying damage.
You WILL see us hitting more people with prone. Put a couple GWF's or a GWF/GF on the battlefield with some DC's, and you're going to see much more pinball moments for OTHER CLASSES.
My suggestion, is convert Takedown from a knockdown to a daze, but only in PvP. It's got a super fast timer, it doesn't push away the target from the melee fighter, and if I miss it recharges in three seconds or so. And the animation, of me hitting you on the head with the pommel of my sword, could easily knock you silly.
Avalanche of steel can be easily avoided, and is more about scaring others and becoming immune for a few seconds than applying CC. Anybody caught in it deserves to be placed on their face.
Savage Advance trades a lot of damage with the other dailies for a single-target strike, but is super fast animation that again puts us right on our target who is laying on the ground. Maybe after the initial charge, the target gets dazed for a few seconds instead of slapped all the way to the ground.
It's not that I won't use the mechanics given to me for all they are worth. It's that I'm not the only GWF out there, especially in PvP, and it's only going to get harder for other classes. Which means more complaints about GWF. Which means a nerf down the road, which could mean they actually get it right and address the issue, or they go and nerf our AP generation again or our swords damage output, and completely wreck the class.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
this is very bad idea takedown is one of few good pvp skills and would ruin any chance to pvp as swordmaster if u ask me they need to redone frontline at gwf so it dose not prone but hits 2 times more targets this would fit more in role of aoe class and fix cc problmes since it is very easy to prone ppl with frontline and once u make this it is game over for low hp classes like is atm when gf hit it low hp buildes are cc locked and gone
Takedown means takedown. (to the ground) otherwise it would be called daze-stand?
Mighty leap is not a dodge + nobody uses it. The deflect addon on spirnt sounds good, but nobody uses it.
I'm still wondering what your agenda is. I think your build is strange, maybe that's why you post all these crazy claims?
Mighty Leap is a dodge. At this point in time, not in the upcoming module. Has been since the game went live.
Sprint currently is immune to movement CC's, and will ignore many that would otherwise immobilize you. Same as Mighty Leap, been there since the game went live.
And my build is actually multiple. I am currently running two level 60's, with a plan to add in a third. I have a destroyer who will be a swordmaster destroyer after module 2. He runs a valiant armor set with rank 7's, a greater thunderhead, and I'm currently building a greater lightning attachment to replace his lesser soulforge.
My second is a full sentinel, who will be converted to a Iron Vanguard Sentinel with module 2. I'm just now gearing him out, and am running a split set of Vigilant/Titan with rank 5's, and weapon and armor attachments to come.
As soon as he's got full boons, I'll throw another up, I think. This one a full instigator. With the two I now have, I can be found in Arena, dungeons, and Gauntlegrym. My poor guild may be no more, but I'm still here.
Oh: Those two GWF's are on top of the six other characters I currently have, minus the CW and GF that I have deleted due to frustrations or to make room for other ideas.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
I get your point, and don't necessarily disagree. In PvP, Takedown is one of my primary, go-to abilities. It's the first ability I fit in any pvp scenario, and gives my GWF alot of his power (even my sentinel).
That said, prone is the single most powerful form of CC in the entire game. And Takedown is the single-most powerful ability in the game by that estimation. It's nearly instant in animation, recharges quickly (almost instantly by PvP standards if you miss), and puts your opponent at your feet, where a melee fighter like us can instantly start applying damage.
There's a reason we all use it.
So maybe adjusting how our frontline surge works against the GF's is the way to go. Maybe my suggestion of changing Takedown's effect only in PvP is a way to go. Maybe an internal cooldown timer which prevents any one player from being knocked prone more than once every three seconds (starting at the end of the full animation) is the way to go.
Or maybe nothing needs changed. I just sense that the last option isn't going to be the case once we see the good GWF's get in full synergy with Iron Vanguard.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
Wrong way of thinking. If you have no intention on getting stunlocked, avoid the initial hit. It's not that hard. GWF with your version of takedown would be useless. The point of a takedown is to ground an opponent so you can pound it's face in.
Hmm. I'm not coming off clearly here.
I get that it's the point of takedown. I get why, in our English language, the combination of the words 'take' and 'down' are put together. Thank you for your attempt to clarify these things for me, but I assure you, I've kept up.
What I am warning of right now, is that we'll have too much applicable CC. This will in turn get us nerfed. Again. This nerf, since it's coming from Cryptic, will probably be aimed at something remotely related to us having too much applicable CC, but instead of being a balance pass, will completely remove something important to us.
They'll take away takedown's damage, or increase it's recharge timer by 10 seconds. They'll nerf AP generation again. They'll make Iron Vanguard only affect one or two enemies. SOMETHING illogical.
And all because it just isn't any fun for our enemies to get hit with prone after prone.
Sure, avoid the stun lock in the first blow. But players are already complaining about our flourish stun and takedown combo's in live. What the heck will the do against us when this module hits? It'll be the next best thing to a protest march, I promise you.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
Both have uses, and I do think Iron Vanguard is superior to Swordmaster for PvP. But that is because of threatening rush + the powerful challenge feat. Also Trample the fallen could find uses as well. I thought Ferocious Reaction would be good, but the feat is in the destroyer tree, basically making sure it's not nearly as strong for a sentinel as it might have been.
Given the nerf to Tenebrous, I think what you are going to see is Sentinel strength in pvp fall somewhere between where Tenebrous GWFs currently are, and non-Tenebrous GWFs are right now.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
The point on the prone is that the animation is the longest. Flourish is only a 1 second stun unless you take the instigator path. At which point your character is still standing and may begin to react, or you can hit unstoppable and cancel the stun early. It has a decent range and damage output, but your character is locked in the animation and you can be 'reversed'.
Any Iron Vanguard GWF will be able to apply the three second prone (with standing animation), from a decent range. This prone can only be avoided; it cannot be cancelled.
I could easily change out Indomitable strength for crescendo, but I'm not worried about either one. I've used Crescendo alot, and eventually traded it outright for Savage Advance, which is an altogether weaker daily but far quicker on the animation and essentially another encounter. I probably won't be picking up Indomitable Strength one way or another, unless it's for certain PvE occasions.
As far as the assessment on class features: I'm more prone to use Bravery and Ferocious Reaction, and take the 15% bleed and Improved Ferocious Reaction. Even for my live Sent builds, I took two outside lines with Unstoppable Recovery and Deep Gash. I am now simply going to drop Student of the Sword completely (a sad moment) to get the extra survivability.
If I'm testing out in dungeons and PvP and don't need that extra survivability, I might eventually swap back to Student of the Sword.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
You really need to speak for yourself instead of saying nobody uses it..
Cause thats just plain false.
Threatening rush to mark groups and gap closer plus 15% damage to marked opponents is just a flat 15% increase to damage.
Frontline surge is much more powerful than flourish, there is no comparison. Knock 3 people prone vs 1 person stun for 1 sec? plus it generates alot of AP. Not to mention trample the fallen.
Just changing these things will create more CC and much more DPS. Try it, the difference is obvious.
For other builds this path may not be nearly as good, but I cant see any sentinels not going this way.
Think about the GFs that have knocked you prone repeatedly, well now the GWFs have the same abilities so yes there will be alot of whining.
the ap gain from frontline surge is currently bugged, it will be toned down shortly
Try it on preview shard.
Frontline surge then threatening rush to close gap and mark then IBT then laugh.
Even if the AP gain is reduced this will still be the combo for sentinels. It does way more damage and has good control.
I dont know if a sentinel spec can be viable in T2 dungeons. Marking groups with threatening rush is good but not sure if they can hold agro on a group. Surviveability should be no problem but agro still may be too low. Have not tested.
does this mean GWF in this Spec will be using Swords/shields? or will it still be 2h weapons?
In Iron Vanguard, they will still only have the two-handed weapons. This works well, except for one animation which has us charging in with our lead arm, with a glowing shield-like effect in front of it. The other animations have no noticeable problems.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
What do you mean? As in the way players treat the role, or is there some hard-coded programing which tries to balance queue's to have different roles that I am unaware of?
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
I'm not sure if I've ever picked up a GF in a PUG. Weird.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
If i use the que system for a skirmish or a dungeon as a GWF i'must wait alot of time while if i que like a GF is like instant pop, even faster then for a DC.., that made me conclude that GWF is treated like a dps while GF as a tank in match making even tho GWF and GF do exactly the same thing. I am hoping that now GWF will have the same status as a GF and that was what i've wanted to know.
yes!
but the fact of this priority for gf - I did not know existed - explains a lot and closes the old discussion: "gwf in this game was dps or defender?" ... hahah.
I'm just kidding. the gwf is very good for both now.
I hope the GWF NEVER ever count as tank. That would replace the Gf.
How? Is the game's design so limited that there can be only one tank? I don't believe so.
GF and GWF mechanics are significantly different that it allows two very different playstyles and types of players (as I'm sure we can all agree that not everyone plays the exact same way) to fulfill the same role.
My tank of a GWF is very mobile, but has to absorb or deflect a lot of damage. The more damage I absorb, the more unstoppable I get. But my deflect is also very high. In the end, with the threat changes in this release and with Iron Vanguard/Sentinel, I seem to be able to apply just as much tank as a GWF, but using my mobile/active playstyle. I understand completely that my style of play doesn't suit everyone, and have seen far too many GWF's who are incapable of applying damage and manipulating their tank as well as I can, and who subsequently feel the class is broken because of it.
I don't play a GF due to the lack of mobility. I recognize their tank is more based on base blocking and absorption with high HP totals. Effective HP. But the overall slower movement, more reliance on encounters and at-wills for activity, and 'plodding' or 'cumbersome' feel the class has does not suit me well. I respect that it suits others perfectly, and I respect their ability in a group and their performance level overall. I cannot play a GF as well as many others, but I do not feel the class is underpowered or broken because of it.'
Both classes have the option to be more than a tank, however. Damage and CC application stand out greatly. AOE and single-target capabilities are pretty broad in both. They have much in common, but appeal to completely different players.
Where is that a flaw?
I'll argue the only argument I can find with having two classes stand so solidly as tanks: most high-end content doesn't require tanking. Low and mid end-game, sure. Even two tanks sometimes. But once players adapt and are capable of predicting AOE's, shuffling threat, and planning for predictable AI, tanking becomes unneccessary. At which point, two classes become unnecessary, not just one.
That's not bad class design. That's bad game design.
And to Zacazu:
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters