twstdechoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 630Bounty Hunter
edited November 2013
Bottom line is, while the overall cost might be lower, they are introducing more barriers up front and taking what they claimed was a frustrating system and making it even more frustrating/complex.
The opportunity cost for selling the item only exists to someone who can pay the upfront cost to unsocket and if the enchant sells for enough AD to cover the unsocket cost and AH fees.
So right now you have to pay to unsocket whihc with anything less than R7 doesn't make sense. We are talking about you saving up 18.66667 Rank 4 enchants and 1.5 Preservation Wards to create a rank 6 from scratch; vs 1 Rank 4 enchant, refinement enchants, 2 green and 1 blue catalysts, and 1.5 P. wards. The former is valued at 40K AD, 36K AD after AH c, while the latter is in the air because we don;t know how the AH will shake out. If you currently want a rank 6, you will have to do it from scratch.
If you currently opt out of the AH to only get your enchants from farming and your wards from invocation, you are not doing it for free. It still costs you the value you could have had from collecting those mats and selling them on the AH. Unsocketing has nothing to do with it currently since any socketed enchant below rank 7 is basically lost, and in the new system simply means you retain the value of the currently socketed enchant.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
Bottom line is, while the overall cost might be lower, they are introducing more barriers up front and taking what they claimed was a frustrating system and making it even more frustrating/complex.
They are making it more complex, I will give you that. It is confusing and a lot of people that don't really check the forums and aren't up to date on how it works are going to be really upset because they will not understand the new system. It just feels unnecessary. I would rather see them remove catalyst and simply raise the AD cost lower than the current value of the AD vendor. Require more refinement points for rank 7+ to get around the cost of having a matching rank enchantment to level up. Keep it simple basically.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
0
beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
With the cost of enchantments and slotting them, I believe it makes sense to Bind them to the account. This being said, have the enchantment able to be sent to any character that is 'Player Account' owned not able to un slot and resell so easily. This will cause a huge hit on the economy when it is launched. Making it Account Bound and able to transfer between characters allows the investment made stay with the player.
I'd have to test if this still holds true, but the only reason that an enchantment wold ever be bound is because it is slotted into an item that's bound. If you unslot it, then it can be transferred to your other characters freely, or sold if you wish. And since the unslotting costs are going to be trivial, players will be able to trade enchantments among multiple characters easily. The only barrier to this previously was the high recovery cost (which, I remind everyone, had a price scale based on recovery actually being cheaper than buying enchantments from the Wondrous Bazaar).
I mean, I don't think you're asking to have these items more limited in what you can do with them, right?
the reason, is that we do not want the additional (<-- do not skip that word please) AD cost that will be added to the refining system, on top of what is already presently in the fusing process.
In terms of AD cost;
I do not pay a single AD to fuse my runes/enchantments.
Can wards cost AD? Yes
Can i receive wards for free? Yes.
Do I pay for wards? NO.
Will i ever sell my wards?. No
Is there a fee to keep wards in any in-game inventory, while waiting for them to be used? No.
Total AD spent on wards - 0
Total Cost of ownership - 0 AD
Are there any AD cost associated to the present Fusing of runes/enchantments, excluding the use of wards? No.
If 0 ADs where used to get wards, and 0 ADs where used in the refining process, then 0 ADs where used in total. NO AD cost at all under the present Fusing system. 0+0=0.
Under the new Rip-Off Scheme (A.K.A Refining system), excluding the use of wards, there are X amount of AD cost to now perform the refinement of runes/enchantments
Which would I prefer and choose?
0 AD cost or X amount of AD cost? Easy the no AD cost that is in the present system is my choice.
I wouldn't be so sure about that. As the demand will decrease and I guess that the supply will stay the same (I do not think, that Cryptic will change the loot table for the 7-day celestial coffers). If the demand decreases and the supply stays the same, the price should go down.
Sounds about right, but even you are unsure, hence the if and should words you used. Demand will not decrease. The reason this will not happen is because of a few factors that are present.
1. There is no cap on how many accounts one can have.
2. There is no cap of the number of character slots one can have.
3. There are 12 items that each character has available, that have rune/enchantments slots
4. There are X amount of companions available that have 3 sots just for runes or enchantments ( i forget which is which).
5. The companions have 3 slots for 3 items/gear that each can have 1 rune/enchantment placed on them.
6. There are players who carry more than 1 set of gear for a different purpose (PvP/PvE gear) each with their own runes/enchants.
7. I had more but forgot them.
Because the demand of wards will hover around the same, the prices of wards will hover around what the price is right now and will not drop in price unless there are changes that take place. Changes such as;
1. Set account limits,
2. Set character slot limits
3. Increased methods and/or rate coalescent wards are given.
This, in order to eventually reach the point a player no longer needs runes/enchantments and the wards that used to get higher ranks of them, and will drive the demand down. We all know the three changes won't happen. So there will always be a constant need for both types of wards. Factor in new players, and the opposite can happen.
Again that is just the reasoning on wards and the prices will hover at the price they are now.
Now the arguement can be said that less wards will be used to get higher ranks, and i will concede to that, because it wil require less wards to get to a higher rank of rune/enchantment. Others, other than myself, have tested this on the preview shard and have posted about it, so i won't argue that.
Now, to stay on track this is not about wards, because we can get those for free. We are speaking of the cost in AD in order to get higher ranks of runes/enchantments. Many have tested it, and posted on it, yet you still say the new system is better, not for those of us who do not spend any AD at all in order to fuse out runes/enchantments.
[*]new direct AD cost, non-farmable: this is truely a drawback in comparison to the old system
You even acknowledged it in one of your posts and hold your stance on preferring the new refining system over the present Fusing system. Thats alright, as more have posted against the new refining system and prefer to stay with the present Fusing system.
But it takes 3-4million ADs to get a Perfect rune/enchantment, thats less for what you have to pay on AH!
Yes it is less than what one pays on AH, but thats 3-4million ADs i would have to pay on the new Rip-Off Scheme, versus not paying any AD on the present Fusing System.
On another note;
The catylsyst, thats a joke! Sure lower ranking onces can be farmed, but higher ranking ones you can only get from dungeons? Now thats alienating players who do not run dungeons or rarely run them. This can add to the cost of refining the runes/enchantmens as those same players, would have to run the dungeons or pay for them on the AH. catalysts should have never been made. Just another way to try to get money for the company.
Devs were somewhat right, this new rip-off scheme is more enjoybale...for PWE/Cryptic to make money,and HAMSTER the payers.
The majority who have posted do not want this new rip-off/refinement system to go live. Please listen to the players.
Again, because you opt out of using AD, does not mean that it is free. There is still a value to all these enchants you get for "free" that you could have had by selling them. That value still matters when comparing it to the new cost. I assume you sell all of your useless enchants you don't need right? Those have a value too and it would be silly to simply "discard" them. Under the new system you can even use those useless enchants to help you upgrade.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
I do hate the idea of catalysts. It adds another unnecessary layer to the system, making it confusing. Honestly to keep it simply, they should remove catalyst items for enchantment (can keep it for artifacts since those are new), and simply require 1 alike enchantment to be the catalyst like they do for rank 7+, but simply make it the first enchantment you slot. It is easy and makes sense, and still carries an AD value cost, but can be farmed normally.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
Again, because you opt out of using AD, does not mean that it is free. There is still a value to all these enchants you get for "free" that you could have had by selling them.
"Could" have...yes, there is value if I were to sell them. Taking that possiblity of selling them out of the equation, means there is no cost/value in AD as I previously posted. I do not sell them I use them.
You assume incorrectly, I do not sell any runes or enchantments I get, i use them.
"Could" have...yes, there is value if I were to sell them. Taking that possiblity of selling them out of the equation, means there is no cost/value in AD as I previously posted. I do not sell them I use them.
You assume incorrectly, I do not sell any runes or enchantments I get, i use them.
Just because you opt out of using the AH, does not mean they don't have a value attached to them. Farming them or buying them on AH still gives them value. I find it hard to believe you use every single enchant you farm, but will concede there are possibilities where you could find use for every single one.
With the new system you will have to collect ADs to upgrade. But when comparing the actual "cost," you have to include the value of your "free" enchants/wards. WE do not know the actual value of from the new system, because we don't really know how much catalysts are going to cost or how to really farm them (considering you can get an epic from farming a solo dungeon once a week it looks like, they should be much cheaper than AD vendor), and we don;t know how enchant/ward costs are going to change. The demand for wards is going to drop off significantly, most likely pushing their cost down. So the total "cost" of a rank 5 or rank 6 enchants will be different from what you currently see on test, most likely quite a bit lower.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
0
rapticorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,078Arc User
edited November 2013
I also believe the "You can sell those enchantments therefore they aren't free" logic is bad logic. At best.
I also believe the "You can sell those enchantments therefore they aren't free" logic is bad logic. At best.
It isn't bad logic, it is economics 101. You could grow your own food, or you could work and pay for your food out of that money. Both get you food. The efficiency of either depends on the costs of food vs the money you could make. Just because you grow your own food doesn't make it free. It takes time and effort. That food you grew has a value. You can either eat it or sell it. You can grow one type of food and sell it so you can then buy other types of food.
Opting out of the basic economy does not eliminate the value of the food you grew. It is still there. The potential for you to use that value in other ways still exists.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
0
shunterinoMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
No, it's bad logic. The value you're ascribing to "free" enchants (if you sold them) is the same for the proposed system (you could sell them too). Obviously they may end up being cheaper over time, but not by a huge amount (A 5kAD gem won't suddenly be 500AD) so you're logic is faulty because the values cancel each other out, so don't need to be taken into account.
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twstdechoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 630Bounty Hunter
edited November 2013
You're flawed in that analysis and here is why...
Those of us complaining are in need of of upgrading our enchantments, and in need of AD. The opportunity cost is overshadowed by the need/desire to upgrade the enchantments. That's our goal. Selling them to make AD robs us of their refinement value and serves to further extend the process of increasing their rank on our gear.
I farm enchants to be able to fuse/refine them. Now, once I have them to an acceptable level, sure, then I have viable options, but again, that hearkens back to my earlier point about furthering the divide.
Now, I will give this point to counter my own. If it turns out that it's faster/easier to level enchantments by farming, refining, then selling others when you need the AD in comparison to pure farming/fusing under the current method, then great. But that's going to depend on the value of those enchantments under the new system. If I have to sell as many under the new system as I "save" in refinement costs in comparison just to make the AD to refine, then I haven't saved anything, I've just spent the same amount overall, and jumped through more hoops to get the same result.
You don't have spend 30K AD on a 5K refinement gem, you could simply use the enchants you farm for refinement. 25K AD for a blue catalyst is the absolute cap, because that is the cost form the AD vendor, it will always sell lower on the AH, not to mention you can farm them and get them for "free."
6K AD to go from rank 4 to rank 6, I have little sympathy for, because that is exactly one Daily quest to complete if you get it from Rhix and Neverember. Easy 6K AD, possibly 12K depending on the daily. Everything else is farmable.
You don't want to spend 6K AD? Seriously? You never do daily quests? You don't have any Leadership profession tasks(I get 7300 AD a day out of a level 43 character without a single green/blue/purple asset)? You never got any AD out of Holiday events? You eschew the AH entirely?
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
"Could" have...yes, there is value if I were to sell them. Taking that possiblity of selling them out of the equation, means there is no cost/value in AD as I previously posted. I do not sell them I use them.
Taking that possibility that we all die out of equation, means we r immortal
Yet again.
You tell enchants r free, unlike ad.
I tell exactly the opposite: i DONT farm enchants at all, though i could farm a bit AD. So my enchants- now - r bought at AH for AD.
Why do u think yr 'enchants r free and ad r costly' is better than mine 'enchants cost and ad r free'
It isn't bad logic, it is economics 101. You could grow your own food, or you could work and pay for your food out of that money. Both get you food. The efficiency of either depends on the costs of food vs the money you could make. Just because you grow your own food doesn't make it free. It takes time and effort. That food you grew has a value. You can either eat it or sell it. You can grow one type of food and sell it so you can then buy other types of food.
Opting out of the basic economy does not eliminate the value of the food you grew. It is still there. The potential for you to use that value in other ways still exists.
Exactly. (taking out of consideration some issues like food security which is coming when u grow yr own food and so on - thats far from our question
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khimera906Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 898Arc User
I do hate the idea of catalysts. It adds another unnecessary layer to the system, making it confusing. Honestly to keep it simply, they should remove catalyst items for enchantment (can keep it for artifacts since those are new), and simply require 1 alike enchantment to be the catalyst like they do for rank 7+, but simply make it the first enchantment you slot. It is easy and makes sense, and still carries an AD value cost, but can be farmed normally.
So you wanna refine 2 Enchantments to R8 so you can create a R9? That's twice the Enchantments, AD's and Wards - twice the farming and twice the price. You do understand that there will be a fee attached to every Refinery? I don't know what's so bewildering about this Refining system for some. As long as Catalysts are easily available, why would you want to use an Enchantment in it's place? I wouldn't mind if they remove the Catalysts, but if were to chose between using a Catalyst or another Enchantment, I would gladly take the Catalyst, and you would too if you just take a minute and think it over.
I hate dancing with Lady Luck. She always steps on my toes.
Those of us complaining are in need of of upgrading our enchantments, and in need of AD. The opportunity cost is overshadowed by the need/desire to upgrade the enchantments. That's our goal. Selling them to make AD robs us of their refinement value and serves to further extend the process of increasing their rank on our gear.
I farm enchants to be able to fuse/refine them. Now, once I have them to an acceptable level, sure, then I have viable options, but again, that hearkens back to my earlier point about furthering the divide.
Now, I will give this point to counter my own. If it turns out that it's faster/easier to level enchantments by farming, refining, then selling others when you need the AD in comparison to pure farming/fusing under the current method, then great. But that's going to depend on the value of those enchantments under the new system. If I have to sell as many under the new system as I "save" in refinement costs in comparison just to make the AD to refine, then I haven't saved anything, I've just spent the same amount overall, and jumped through more hoops to get the same result.
The farming value of the new enchants is quite clear. You still need 4 matching enchants to go up a rank from rank 4 to rank 7. Except now you can also use 8 non-matching enchants to go up a rank. Now an AD cost on top of this seems rough, until you consider the cost of a rank 4 training rune vs a rank 4 dark/radiant/azure. 1 rank 4 dark is around 1750 AD on the AH right now. You can get a rank 4 training for less than 100. But since we are eschewing the AH, being able to use non-matching rank 4s, means it will take you less farming time to max out refinement. But you still need those pesky catalysts. Well to go from rank 4 to 5, they drop out of skill nodes, that you probably opened while farming. So you probably already have those. So to go to rank 5, you have to pay 1000 AD. Considering you saved time by using those non-matching enchants/runes, I would say this cost is fair.
I can farm 48 ranks 4s enchants, not counting runes, an hour (7% from Fey Blessing Enchants). That would get me 12 of any one type. That would be enough for 3 rank 5s of the enchant I want right now assuming 0 failures, and probably 24 I don't need, and 12 that I kind of want but am not needing atm. So I would have to sell those to speed up the process to get what I want. Under the new system, I don't even have to sell them since those 24 enchants I don't want are the equivalent of 12 matching enchants. Not only that I don't even have to upgrade them to use them to make my rank 6. I will also have farmed some green catalysts since I always open skill nodes. When we find out more about how to get blue catalysts, I am sure I could farm those as well. So now I am getting where I want to go faster and my wards from invocation are worth more.
The only road block is the AD cost. Sorry, but I am not going to get upset at the cost of 6K AD to go from rank 4 to rank 6. 1 Daily, and boom I got it.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
So you wanna refine 2 Enchantment to R8 so you can create a R9? That's twice the Enchantments, AD's and Wards - twice the farming and twice the price. You do understand that there will be a fee attached to every Refinery? I don't know what's so bewildering about this Refining system for some. As long as Catalysts are easily available, why would you want to use an Enchantment in it's place? I wouldn't mind if they remove the Catalysts, but if were to chose between using a Catalyst or another Enchantment, I would gladly take the Catalyst, and you would too if you just take a minute and think it over.
You are misunderstanding. I am saying remove catalyst items and require one matching enchant. Not in addition to current Refinement costs, but as part of it to complete and upgrade. Ideally, this would be changed to any matching rank enchant (so it doesn't have to match type) rank 6 and below. Not a perfect idea to be sure. The idea is to remove a layer. The rank 7, 8, 9 requirements would get folded into the Refinement cost, so they would cost the same minus the catalyst.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
Overcomplicated to the max.
Made the whole, understandable, system unnecessarily complicated.
What on earth is complicated in feeding yr enchant (while being slotted in yr dress) with every thing u got, and feeding yr enchant with a mark while levelling it up. Is it really like a rocket science?
0
syka08Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2013
6 days and nearly 40 pages since the last Dev post (other preview feedback threads are getting daily attention). Makes me wonder what's going on on the other end. Expecting something soon!
Stop confusing the two. Everything has value in this game ( i think).
I am not talkign about value here. Read and understand what you read, just dont choose what you want to read.
I posted on the COST of AD.
It did not cost anything in-game to receive my wards.
There was no AD cost in recieving them,
There is no AD cost in keeping them in my inventory,
There is no AD cost in using them.
You all may buy and/or sell them and therefore it has that AD value to you. I dont care of the AD value of the wards, because let me repeat again...I do not buy nor sell them, I use them. I have removed the option to sell them so there is no AD value to me in regards to wards. I recieve them for free.
The gripe is on the Additional direct AD cost in refining runes/enchantment in the new system, versus the old system where there is no direct ad cost.
Why do u think yr' enchants r free and ad r costly' is better than mine 'enchants cost and ad r free'
Why i think my enchants are free? because I didn't pay/cost me anything to receive them.
If you purchase AD then yes its has a cost and value. I can get AD through salvaging selling items from dungeons or other places, invoking, completing dailys, professions. But if its rough AD then there is a limit on what we can refine and is readily available to use, for the day. Do i do all these to get AD? I do some. I don't have millions stored in order to refine runes/enchantments on the new system.
You purchase your enchantments from AH, there is your COST. Now because you had to spend something in order to recieve something, you now have placed an added VALUE to it (other than needing it for whatever you wanted in the first place).
I don't see why you would want to purchase your runes/enchantments, from the AH. It's easy to farm, well at level 60 that is.
I dont spend anything to get my wards or runes/enchantments, it is free. I do not place an addition value (AD) to it.
It doesn't matter how anyone or I may view the wards,runes, and enchantments and their cost/value, that is not the main issue here.
What is the main issue/gripe here?
The issue/gripe is on the Additional direct AD cost in refining runes/enchantment in the new system, versus the old system where there is no direct ad cost.
There was no AD cost in recieving them,
There is no AD cost in keeping them in my inventory,
There is no AD cost in using them.
Why i think my enchants are free? because I didn't pay/cost me anything to receive them.
Holy ****...
There was no enchant cost in my receiving rank 7 enchants for my toons. Exactly NO enchants costs: i paid AD. Also no enchant costs to keep that 7 lvl enchants in my inventory and using them (except i cannot unslot them)
Stop confusing the two. Everything has value in this game ( i think).
I am not talkign about value here. Read and understand what you read, just dont choose what you want to read.
I posted on the COST of AD.
It did not cost anything in-game to receive my wards.
There was no AD cost in recieving them,
There is no AD cost in keeping them in my inventory,
There is no AD cost in using them.
You all may buy and/or sell them and therefore it has that AD value to you. I dont care of the AD value of the wards, because let me repeat again...I do not buy nor sell them, I use them. I have removed the option to sell them so there is no AD value to me in regards to wards. I recieve them for free.
The gripe is on the Additional direct AD cost in refining runes/enchantment in the new system, versus the old system where there is no direct ad cost.
0+0=0.
Why i think my enchants are free? because I didn't pay/cost me anything to receive them.
If you purchase AD then yes its has a cost and value. I can get AD through salvaging selling items from dungeons or other places, invoking, completing dailys, professions. But if its rough AD then there is a limit on what we can refine and is readily available to use, for the day. Do i do all these to get AD? I do some. I don't have millions stored in order to refine runes/enchantments on the new system.
You purchase your enchantments from AH, there is your COST. Now because you had to spend something in order to recieve something, you now have placed an added VALUE to it (other than needing it for whatever you wanted in the first place).
I don't see why you would want to purchase your runes/enchantments, from the AH. It's easy to farm, well at level 60 that is.
I dont spend anything to get my wards or runes/enchantments, it is free. I do not place an addition value (AD) to it.
It doesn't matter how anyone or I may view the wards,runes, and enchantments and their cost/value, that is not the main issue here.
What is the main issue/gripe here?
The issue/gripe is on the Additional direct AD cost in refining runes/enchantment in the new system, versus the old system where there is no direct ad cost.
I cannot help it that you abstain from the current economy, because you pretty much at least double your time to upgrade enchants you need that way. The new system makes it even quicker for you since you can now use all of your enchants. If you are seriously upgrading all of your enchants to include training runestones, then you are being really, really, inefficient.
The only direct AD "cost" of the new system is the upgrade cost. From rank 4 to rank 6 is a grand total of 6K AD. To upgrade 12 enchants across your gear from rank 4 to 6, it will cost you a grand total 72K AD for ALL of them. That is 3 days of refining rough AD. You are blowing the additional AD cost out of proportion for the mid ranks.
Edit: Why would I spend AD on enchants? Because I sold my unneeded enchants to to buy more of the enchants I can use, so I could upgrade them faster. I will outrank you in enchants much faster this way. The new system removes the need for me use this method, since I can just use those enchants directly for refinement points.
Also, if you aren't spending AD on wards, you won't very far in the current system. Over 600 P.Wards to go form rank 5 to 10. Good luck getting that many for free in a reasonable time frame.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
What on earth is complicated in feeding yr enchant (while being slotted in yr dress) with every thing u got, and feeding yr enchant with a mark while levelling it up. Is it really like a rocket science?
Really?
This coming from someone with the inablity/refusal to spell the words "you, your, are", when you clearly have no problem taking the time to spell out much larger words instead of using shorthand. It isn't rocket science
Holy ****...
There was no enchant cost in my receiving rank 7 enchants for my toons. Exactly NO enchants costs: i paid AD. Also no enchant costs to keep that 7 lvl enchants in my inventory and using them (except i cannot unslot them)
Read and pay attention to what you have read.
Not once did I post that you got those things for free. Why? because I paid attention to what I have read ( what you had posted). I don't care how much you had to pay for them.
I clearly have posted in "my" case, why they didn't cost "me" anything. I dont care if it cost you anything, as that had nothing to do with me.
I cannot help it that you abstain from the current economy, because you pretty much at least double your time to upgrade enchants you need that way. The new system makes it even quicker for you since you can now use all of your enchants. If you are seriously upgrading all of your enchants to include training runestones, then you are being really, really, inefficient.
The only direct AD "cost" of the new system is the upgrade cost. From rank 4 to rank 6 is a grand total of 6K AD. To upgrade 12 enchants across your gear from rank 4 to 6, it will cost you a grand total 72K AD for ALL of them. That is 3 days of refining rough AD. You are blowing the additional AD cost out of proportion for the mid ranks.
Edit: Why would I spend AD on enchants? Because I sold my unneeded enchants to to buy more of the enchants I can use, so I could upgrade them faster. I will outrank you in enchants much faster this way. The new system removes the need for me use this method, since I can just use those enchants directly for refinement points.
I'm not the only one to do this.
In my case, yes, the new way is faster, but not cheaper.
In terms of the basic quest and foundry content, which is all I generally do as a fairly casual player, you don't really need enchants at all. I've been running without on my DC for a while without issues.
And that's probably the factor that made Cryptic think that a lot of players feel the old Enchantment Refinement system needed a change.
exactly how is the new system forcing me to turn to my wallet to upgrade? it's not like this new system is taking away my ability to make in-game AD. i'm still able to get rAD from the salvager, daily quests, leadership... and selling items on the AH for AD. the only thing that would be forcing me to open my wallet to upgrade is my own impatience. and that could be said of the current and the new system.
I said "urging" not "forcing". This system is meant to make you look at every enchantment that's ready to rank-up and figure that your daily quota of 24K refined AD isn't enough to rank-up even one enchantment and then reconsider buying some ZEN so you could get AD. Lets face it, the majority of players do not make 24K AD per day and even if they did it wouldn't be enough anyway. Selling stuff on the AH and making a profit isn't something that most players do either and so... yes, this new refinement system is urging people more than before to buy their AD with real money.
____________________________________________
The poster formerly known as LordOfPit, and his blog.
* Dec 2007 (CO)
* Oct 2008 (STO)
Comments
thats nice u at least seem to accept this
So right now you have to pay to unsocket whihc with anything less than R7 doesn't make sense. We are talking about you saving up 18.66667 Rank 4 enchants and 1.5 Preservation Wards to create a rank 6 from scratch; vs 1 Rank 4 enchant, refinement enchants, 2 green and 1 blue catalysts, and 1.5 P. wards. The former is valued at 40K AD, 36K AD after AH c, while the latter is in the air because we don;t know how the AH will shake out. If you currently want a rank 6, you will have to do it from scratch.
If you currently opt out of the AH to only get your enchants from farming and your wards from invocation, you are not doing it for free. It still costs you the value you could have had from collecting those mats and selling them on the AH. Unsocketing has nothing to do with it currently since any socketed enchant below rank 7 is basically lost, and in the new system simply means you retain the value of the currently socketed enchant.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
They are making it more complex, I will give you that. It is confusing and a lot of people that don't really check the forums and aren't up to date on how it works are going to be really upset because they will not understand the new system. It just feels unnecessary. I would rather see them remove catalyst and simply raise the AD cost lower than the current value of the AD vendor. Require more refinement points for rank 7+ to get around the cost of having a matching rank enchantment to level up. Keep it simple basically.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
I'd have to test if this still holds true, but the only reason that an enchantment wold ever be bound is because it is slotted into an item that's bound. If you unslot it, then it can be transferred to your other characters freely, or sold if you wish. And since the unslotting costs are going to be trivial, players will be able to trade enchantments among multiple characters easily. The only barrier to this previously was the high recovery cost (which, I remind everyone, had a price scale based on recovery actually being cheaper than buying enchantments from the Wondrous Bazaar).
I mean, I don't think you're asking to have these items more limited in what you can do with them, right?
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
In terms of AD cost;
I do not pay a single AD to fuse my runes/enchantments.
Can wards cost AD? Yes
Can i receive wards for free? Yes.
Do I pay for wards? NO.
Will i ever sell my wards?. No
Is there a fee to keep wards in any in-game inventory, while waiting for them to be used? No.
Total AD spent on wards - 0
Total Cost of ownership - 0 AD
Are there any AD cost associated to the present Fusing of runes/enchantments, excluding the use of wards? No.
If 0 ADs where used to get wards, and 0 ADs where used in the refining process, then 0 ADs where used in total. NO AD cost at all under the present Fusing system. 0+0=0.
Under the new Rip-Off Scheme (A.K.A Refining system), excluding the use of wards, there are X amount of AD cost to now perform the refinement of runes/enchantments
Which would I prefer and choose?
0 AD cost or X amount of AD cost? Easy the no AD cost that is in the present system is my choice.
Sounds about right, but even you are unsure, hence the if and should words you used. Demand will not decrease. The reason this will not happen is because of a few factors that are present.
1. There is no cap on how many accounts one can have.
2. There is no cap of the number of character slots one can have.
3. There are 12 items that each character has available, that have rune/enchantments slots
4. There are X amount of companions available that have 3 sots just for runes or enchantments ( i forget which is which).
5. The companions have 3 slots for 3 items/gear that each can have 1 rune/enchantment placed on them.
6. There are players who carry more than 1 set of gear for a different purpose (PvP/PvE gear) each with their own runes/enchants.
7. I had more but forgot them.
Because the demand of wards will hover around the same, the prices of wards will hover around what the price is right now and will not drop in price unless there are changes that take place. Changes such as;
1. Set account limits,
2. Set character slot limits
3. Increased methods and/or rate coalescent wards are given.
This, in order to eventually reach the point a player no longer needs runes/enchantments and the wards that used to get higher ranks of them, and will drive the demand down. We all know the three changes won't happen. So there will always be a constant need for both types of wards. Factor in new players, and the opposite can happen.
Again that is just the reasoning on wards and the prices will hover at the price they are now.
Now the arguement can be said that less wards will be used to get higher ranks, and i will concede to that, because it wil require less wards to get to a higher rank of rune/enchantment. Others, other than myself, have tested this on the preview shard and have posted about it, so i won't argue that.
Now, to stay on track this is not about wards, because we can get those for free. We are speaking of the cost in AD in order to get higher ranks of runes/enchantments. Many have tested it, and posted on it, yet you still say the new system is better, not for those of us who do not spend any AD at all in order to fuse out runes/enchantments.
You even acknowledged it in one of your posts and hold your stance on preferring the new refining system over the present Fusing system. Thats alright, as more have posted against the new refining system and prefer to stay with the present Fusing system.
But it takes 3-4million ADs to get a Perfect rune/enchantment, thats less for what you have to pay on AH!
Yes it is less than what one pays on AH, but thats 3-4million ADs i would have to pay on the new Rip-Off Scheme, versus not paying any AD on the present Fusing System.
On another note;
The catylsyst, thats a joke! Sure lower ranking onces can be farmed, but higher ranking ones you can only get from dungeons? Now thats alienating players who do not run dungeons or rarely run them. This can add to the cost of refining the runes/enchantmens as those same players, would have to run the dungeons or pay for them on the AH. catalysts should have never been made. Just another way to try to get money for the company.
Devs were somewhat right, this new rip-off scheme is more enjoybale...for PWE/Cryptic to make money,and HAMSTER the payers.
The majority who have posted do not want this new rip-off/refinement system to go live. Please listen to the players.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
I do hate the idea of catalysts. It adds another unnecessary layer to the system, making it confusing. Honestly to keep it simply, they should remove catalyst items for enchantment (can keep it for artifacts since those are new), and simply require 1 alike enchantment to be the catalyst like they do for rank 7+, but simply make it the first enchantment you slot. It is easy and makes sense, and still carries an AD value cost, but can be farmed normally.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
"Could" have...yes, there is value if I were to sell them. Taking that possiblity of selling them out of the equation, means there is no cost/value in AD as I previously posted. I do not sell them I use them.
You assume incorrectly, I do not sell any runes or enchantments I get, i use them.
Just because you opt out of using the AH, does not mean they don't have a value attached to them. Farming them or buying them on AH still gives them value. I find it hard to believe you use every single enchant you farm, but will concede there are possibilities where you could find use for every single one.
With the new system you will have to collect ADs to upgrade. But when comparing the actual "cost," you have to include the value of your "free" enchants/wards. WE do not know the actual value of from the new system, because we don't really know how much catalysts are going to cost or how to really farm them (considering you can get an epic from farming a solo dungeon once a week it looks like, they should be much cheaper than AD vendor), and we don;t know how enchant/ward costs are going to change. The demand for wards is going to drop off significantly, most likely pushing their cost down. So the total "cost" of a rank 5 or rank 6 enchants will be different from what you currently see on test, most likely quite a bit lower.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
It isn't bad logic, it is economics 101. You could grow your own food, or you could work and pay for your food out of that money. Both get you food. The efficiency of either depends on the costs of food vs the money you could make. Just because you grow your own food doesn't make it free. It takes time and effort. That food you grew has a value. You can either eat it or sell it. You can grow one type of food and sell it so you can then buy other types of food.
Opting out of the basic economy does not eliminate the value of the food you grew. It is still there. The potential for you to use that value in other ways still exists.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
No, it's bad logic. The value you're ascribing to "free" enchants (if you sold them) is the same for the proposed system (you could sell them too). Obviously they may end up being cheaper over time, but not by a huge amount (A 5kAD gem won't suddenly be 500AD) so you're logic is faulty because the values cancel each other out, so don't need to be taken into account.
Those of us complaining are in need of of upgrading our enchantments, and in need of AD. The opportunity cost is overshadowed by the need/desire to upgrade the enchantments. That's our goal. Selling them to make AD robs us of their refinement value and serves to further extend the process of increasing their rank on our gear.
I farm enchants to be able to fuse/refine them. Now, once I have them to an acceptable level, sure, then I have viable options, but again, that hearkens back to my earlier point about furthering the divide.
Now, I will give this point to counter my own. If it turns out that it's faster/easier to level enchantments by farming, refining, then selling others when you need the AD in comparison to pure farming/fusing under the current method, then great. But that's going to depend on the value of those enchantments under the new system. If I have to sell as many under the new system as I "save" in refinement costs in comparison just to make the AD to refine, then I haven't saved anything, I've just spent the same amount overall, and jumped through more hoops to get the same result.
6K AD to go from rank 4 to rank 6, I have little sympathy for, because that is exactly one Daily quest to complete if you get it from Rhix and Neverember. Easy 6K AD, possibly 12K depending on the daily. Everything else is farmable.
You don't want to spend 6K AD? Seriously? You never do daily quests? You don't have any Leadership profession tasks(I get 7300 AD a day out of a level 43 character without a single green/blue/purple asset)? You never got any AD out of Holiday events? You eschew the AH entirely?
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
Thats what I am going to do. I simply will refuse to use this system, only for armor and weapon enchants.
Taking that possibility that we all die out of equation, means we r immortal
Yet again.
You tell enchants r free, unlike ad.
I tell exactly the opposite: i DONT farm enchants at all, though i could farm a bit AD. So my enchants- now - r bought at AH for AD.
Why do u think yr 'enchants r free and ad r costly' is better than mine 'enchants cost and ad r free'
Exactly. (taking out of consideration some issues like food security which is coming when u grow yr own food and so on - thats far from our question
The farming value of the new enchants is quite clear. You still need 4 matching enchants to go up a rank from rank 4 to rank 7. Except now you can also use 8 non-matching enchants to go up a rank. Now an AD cost on top of this seems rough, until you consider the cost of a rank 4 training rune vs a rank 4 dark/radiant/azure. 1 rank 4 dark is around 1750 AD on the AH right now. You can get a rank 4 training for less than 100. But since we are eschewing the AH, being able to use non-matching rank 4s, means it will take you less farming time to max out refinement. But you still need those pesky catalysts. Well to go from rank 4 to 5, they drop out of skill nodes, that you probably opened while farming. So you probably already have those. So to go to rank 5, you have to pay 1000 AD. Considering you saved time by using those non-matching enchants/runes, I would say this cost is fair.
I can farm 48 ranks 4s enchants, not counting runes, an hour (7% from Fey Blessing Enchants). That would get me 12 of any one type. That would be enough for 3 rank 5s of the enchant I want right now assuming 0 failures, and probably 24 I don't need, and 12 that I kind of want but am not needing atm. So I would have to sell those to speed up the process to get what I want. Under the new system, I don't even have to sell them since those 24 enchants I don't want are the equivalent of 12 matching enchants. Not only that I don't even have to upgrade them to use them to make my rank 6. I will also have farmed some green catalysts since I always open skill nodes. When we find out more about how to get blue catalysts, I am sure I could farm those as well. So now I am getting where I want to go faster and my wards from invocation are worth more.
The only road block is the AD cost. Sorry, but I am not going to get upset at the cost of 6K AD to go from rank 4 to rank 6. 1 Daily, and boom I got it.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
You are misunderstanding. I am saying remove catalyst items and require one matching enchant. Not in addition to current Refinement costs, but as part of it to complete and upgrade. Ideally, this would be changed to any matching rank enchant (so it doesn't have to match type) rank 6 and below. Not a perfect idea to be sure. The idea is to remove a layer. The rank 7, 8, 9 requirements would get folded into the Refinement cost, so they would cost the same minus the catalyst.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
Made the whole, understandable, system unnecessarily complicated.
Really bad.
What on earth is complicated in feeding yr enchant (while being slotted in yr dress) with every thing u got, and feeding yr enchant with a mark while levelling it up. Is it really like a rocket science?
Stop confusing the two. Everything has value in this game ( i think).
I am not talkign about value here. Read and understand what you read, just dont choose what you want to read.
I posted on the COST of AD.
It did not cost anything in-game to receive my wards.
There was no AD cost in recieving them,
There is no AD cost in keeping them in my inventory,
There is no AD cost in using them.
You all may buy and/or sell them and therefore it has that AD value to you. I dont care of the AD value of the wards, because let me repeat again...I do not buy nor sell them, I use them. I have removed the option to sell them so there is no AD value to me in regards to wards. I recieve them for free.
The gripe is on the Additional direct AD cost in refining runes/enchantment in the new system, versus the old system where there is no direct ad cost.
0+0=0.
Why i think my enchants are free? because I didn't pay/cost me anything to receive them.
If you purchase AD then yes its has a cost and value. I can get AD through salvaging selling items from dungeons or other places, invoking, completing dailys, professions. But if its rough AD then there is a limit on what we can refine and is readily available to use, for the day. Do i do all these to get AD? I do some. I don't have millions stored in order to refine runes/enchantments on the new system.
You purchase your enchantments from AH, there is your COST. Now because you had to spend something in order to recieve something, you now have placed an added VALUE to it (other than needing it for whatever you wanted in the first place).
I don't see why you would want to purchase your runes/enchantments, from the AH. It's easy to farm, well at level 60 that is.
I dont spend anything to get my wards or runes/enchantments, it is free. I do not place an addition value (AD) to it.
It doesn't matter how anyone or I may view the wards,runes, and enchantments and their cost/value, that is not the main issue here.
What is the main issue/gripe here?
The issue/gripe is on the Additional direct AD cost in refining runes/enchantment in the new system, versus the old system where there is no direct ad cost.
Holy ****...
There was no enchant cost in my receiving rank 7 enchants for my toons. Exactly NO enchants costs: i paid AD. Also no enchant costs to keep that 7 lvl enchants in my inventory and using them (except i cannot unslot them)
I cannot help it that you abstain from the current economy, because you pretty much at least double your time to upgrade enchants you need that way. The new system makes it even quicker for you since you can now use all of your enchants. If you are seriously upgrading all of your enchants to include training runestones, then you are being really, really, inefficient.
The only direct AD "cost" of the new system is the upgrade cost. From rank 4 to rank 6 is a grand total of 6K AD. To upgrade 12 enchants across your gear from rank 4 to 6, it will cost you a grand total 72K AD for ALL of them. That is 3 days of refining rough AD. You are blowing the additional AD cost out of proportion for the mid ranks.
Edit: Why would I spend AD on enchants? Because I sold my unneeded enchants to to buy more of the enchants I can use, so I could upgrade them faster. I will outrank you in enchants much faster this way. The new system removes the need for me use this method, since I can just use those enchants directly for refinement points.
Also, if you aren't spending AD on wards, you won't very far in the current system. Over 600 P.Wards to go form rank 5 to 10. Good luck getting that many for free in a reasonable time frame.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
Really?
This coming from someone with the inablity/refusal to spell the words "you, your, are", when you clearly have no problem taking the time to spell out much larger words instead of using shorthand. It isn't rocket science
Read and pay attention to what you have read.
Not once did I post that you got those things for free. Why? because I paid attention to what I have read ( what you had posted). I don't care how much you had to pay for them.
I clearly have posted in "my" case, why they didn't cost "me" anything. I dont care if it cost you anything, as that had nothing to do with me.
I'm not the only one to do this.
In my case, yes, the new way is faster, but not cheaper.
I said "urging" not "forcing". This system is meant to make you look at every enchantment that's ready to rank-up and figure that your daily quota of 24K refined AD isn't enough to rank-up even one enchantment and then reconsider buying some ZEN so you could get AD. Lets face it, the majority of players do not make 24K AD per day and even if they did it wouldn't be enough anyway. Selling stuff on the AH and making a profit isn't something that most players do either and so... yes, this new refinement system is urging people more than before to buy their AD with real money.
The poster formerly known as LordOfPit, and his blog.
* Dec 2007 (CO)
* Oct 2008 (STO)