kimonkaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2013
I'm a player that makes...3k per day? 10k if it's an Exceptional day. Very slow, but it builds up. I could live with the refinement system, but only if the AD sinks are uh lowered. I'm curious on how much lower the AD costs should be to make it effective, let's just hope it's reasonable :P.
I've also set up a little poll on the general section on how much AD people make per day. From the 60ish votes, most of them are 10k. Heck, some people even wanted an option for 10k and under. Granted it's a small sample, but that sample is partly why i'm going for a change to lower the AD sink. (Also only evidence I have)
Well, I don't see a word from devs here.
31 pages of almost one side opinions.
I think they are really going to implement this system, even if it will empty the servers?
Feedback: New Refiniment System
Great idea, but screwed with the AD costs and catalysts costs. Remove AD cost from lower enchants, and cut like 50-75% of the AD cost from highers. Lower the AD cost from catalysts.
The way the system is now, you will get maybe 200 players using it, leading to a mass evacuation from players who are regular/casual and don't have a viable way to gather those amounts of AD to make this system viable.
Oh and please, lower the AD costs again after you lower it
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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shunterinoMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2013
A lot of people have pointed out that the old (current) system of fusing for free still costs AD in that since you aren't selling the gem it is basically costing you the price you could have got on the AH. Which is true. If I make a R5 gem out of gems I farmed I could get maybe 5k AD for it and by not selling it I am sacrificing that amount.
However, what those people aren't taking into account is that that is also true for the new (proposed) system, so they basically cancel each other out.
Current: I farm a R5 gem, outlay nothing. I sell it on the AH for 5k AD.
New: I upgrade to a R5 paying 100AD (not sure if that's right, just an example). I sell it on the AH for 5k AD.
So the new system still costs me more. I realise there are other factors, but my point is you can't take into the sale price of the gems without taking it into account for both versions.
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tang56Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Oh, and go check out gatewaytest.playneverwinter.com for the sword coast mini game. It's plenty fun and a good way to earn rank 4 enchants to fuel your future needs any which way this refinement system blows.
Is it wrong that the mini game is more fun that the actual game right now?
RIP Neverwinter 26/06/2014
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syka08Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Is it wrong that the mini game is more fun that the actual game right now?
Not at all. I'm limited with my companions right now (only have 5 that I've picked up here and there) and I'm still doing pretty well/having fun with it. Can't wait for it to hit live! (also, I've noticed prices for green+ companions steadily creeping up. I wonder if this has anything to do with it)
A lot of people have pointed out that the old (current) system of fusing for free still costs AD in that since you aren't selling the gem it is basically costing you the price you could have got on the AH. Which is true. If I make a R5 gem out of gems I farmed I could get maybe 5k AD for it and by not selling it I am sacrificing that amount.
However, what those people aren't taking into account is that that is also true for the new (proposed) system, so they basically cancel each other out.
Current: I farm a R5 gem, outlay nothing. I sell it on the AH for 5k AD.
New: I upgrade to a R5 paying 100AD (not sure if that's right, just an example). I sell it on the AH for 5k AD.
So the new system still costs me more. I realise there are other factors, but my point is you can't take into the sale price of the gems without taking it into account for both versions.
And the major fact of it all: The current system allows you to make r5 till r6 enchants without spending a single AD. This is the most crucial point of new system, AD requirements even for low lvls.
As I said, the need to cut the AD prices, and after that, cut again. Maybe they will come to a viable quantity.
Don't they realize there is something wrong?
A normal horse upgrade to epic is more expensive then a nightmare... A normal companion upgrade to epic is more expensive then a epic one on the AH...
Maybe the guy who put the AD prices on the game see numbers with additional zeros :P
If you use an enchantment, you use up the value of the enchantment in Astral Diamonds--because you could have sold said enchantment in the Auction House. The TCO (Total Cost of Ownership)--aka the actual value of the enchantments--in the new system will be lower for higher ranks (Greater Weapon/Armor Enchantments and Rank 7 and higher normal enchantments).
You're right, that you cannot avoid the direct Astral Diamond cost of the upgrades (you can farm the required "Mark of Potency" as well as the "Wards"). But, if you would incline to start selling stuff on the Auction House--if you haven't done that before--, you could get the required Astral Diamonds needed for the upgrade, from excess material you got through drops ("Mark of Potency", "Wards" and maybe enchantments). And you would need a lot less of those ("Wards" and enchantments) as you would in the current system.
This is completely wrong. Opportunity costs do not work this way. If you wish to discuss Opportunity costs or as you have termed them TCO then you have to look at what else you could have done with the AD it costs to refine. Such as bought professional assets which can be used to make ad you are now missing out on. Or a better mount which has economic advantages, etc.
As far as The opportunity costs of not selling enchants at the AH it is nonexistent. If Cryptics numbers are even close to right saying that you free up enchants to sell by spending AD will destroy the AD value of enchants. There will be millions of players that only need half as many enchants but twice as much AD The value of the enchants will plummet due to sudden oversupply, and there will be no AD to buy them.
Also, also: Rolling out previews during a holiday event? Noooot good if you want more focused attention. Luckily, this project seems like it'll be going on for maybe another month or so?
[/COLOR]
.
Or it could be that they didn't want to much attention.
I've updated my analysis with a comparison to the current system and added feedback:
Amount of matching R4s (accumulative) consumed in refining process:
4 (4) for a R4 (1 base, 3 for the RPs) 12 (16) for a R5 48 (64) for a R6 192 (256) for a R7 (128 to refine the R7 itself and 64 R4s for the R7 Catalyst) 640 (896) for a R8 (384 to refine the R8 itself and 256 R4s for the R8 Catalyst) 2048 (2944) for a R9 (1152 to refine the R9 itself and 896 R4s for the R9 Catalyst)
4.67 (4.67) to upgrade R4 14.01 (18.68) to upgrade R5 56.04 (74.72) to upgrade R6 224.16 (298.88) to upgrade R7 896.64 (1195.52) to upgrade R8 3586.56 (4782.08) to upgrade R9
Note: This calculation assumes that you use PWards starting with R6s, which is not always the best option (especially for Silverys)
Analysis: The amount of enchants is reduced, slightly for R5-R8, majorly for R9/R10. The ability to use non-matching enchants as well will speed up the process additionally.
Amount of matching Shards (accumulative) consumed in refining/upgrading process:
4 (4) for a Shard (1 base, 3 for the RPs) 12 (16) for a Lesser (8 to refine the Lesser itself and one 4 Shards for the Lesser Catalyst) 40 (56) for a Normal (24 to refine the Normal itself and 16 Shards for the Normal Catalyst) 128 (184) for a Greater (72 to refine the Greater itself and 56 Shards for the Greater Catalysts)
Note: The minimum amount of matching Shards needed is 4 (Lesser), 8 (Normal), 16 (Greater), 32 (Perfect).
4 (4) to upgrade Shard 12 (16) to upgrade Lesser 48 (64) to upgrade Normal 192 (256) to upgrade Greater
Analysis: The amount of needed Shards is slightly reduced for Greater, majorly for Perfect. Beyond Lesser you only need a small fraction of matching Shards compared to the current system, rest can be done with non-matching Shards or even Enchants. ADs [without marks/wards] (accumulative [without marks/wards]) needed for upgrade (doesn't include prices for Shards/Enchantments assuming you farm all of them):
2.335 [1.000] (2.335 [1.000]) for a R5
- (1.000 + [2.67x LMark 1.335]) 36.000 AD [5.000] (38.335 [6.000]) for a R6
- (5.000 + [1x Mark 25.000 + 1.50 PWards 6.000]) 84.320 AD [25.000] (122.655 [31.000]) for a R7
- (25.000 + [2x Mark 50.000 + 2.33 PWards 9.320]) 284.655 AD [81.000] (407.310 [122.000]) for a R8
- (50.000 + [1x GMark 100.000 + 3.00 PWards 12.000] + Catalyst R7 122.655 [31.000]) 698.310 AD [197.000] (1.105.620 [319.000]) for a R9
- (75.000 + [2x GMark 200.000 + 4.00 PWards 16.000] + Catalyst R8 407.310 [122.000]) 1.441.620 AD [419.000] (2.547.240 [738.000]) for a R10
- (100.000 + [2x GMark 200.000 + 9.00 PWards 36.000] + Catalyst R9 1.105.620 [319.000])
0 [0] (0 [0]) for a R5 6.000 AD [0] (6.000 [0]) for a R6
- ([1.50 PWards 6.000]) 9.320 AD [0] (33.320 [0]) for a R7
- ([2.33 PWards 9.320]) 12.000 AD [0] (145.280 [0]) for a R8
- ([3.00 PWards 12.000]) 16.000 AD [0] (597.120 [0]) for a R9
- ([4.00 PWards 16.000]) 36.000 AD [0] (2.424.480 [0]) for a R10
- ([9.00 PWards 36.000])
Note: This calculation assumes that you use PWards starting with R6s, which is not always the best option (especially for Silverys)
Analysis: Overall it gets more expensive for everyone: R10 (+5%) - R9 (+85%) - R8 (+180%) - R7 (+268%) - R6 (+539%). And even if you grind all necessary components, you still have to pay a mandatory cost that goes from annoying to unreasonable for casual players.
130.000 [25.000] (130.000 [25.000]) for a Lesser
- (25.000 + [1.00x CWard 105.000]) 385.000 [75.000] (515.000 [100.000]) for a Normal
- (50.000 + [1x GMark 100.000 + 1.00 CWard 105.000] + Catalyst Lesser 130.000 [25.000]) 895.000 [175.000] (1.410.000 [275.000]) for a Greater
- (75.000 + [2x GMark 200.000 + 1.00 CWard 105.000] + Catalyst Normal 515.000 [100.000]) 1.815.000 [375.000] (3.225.000 [650.000]) for a Perfect
- (100.000 + [2x GMark 200.000 + 1.00 CWard 105.000] + Catalyst Greater 1.410.000 [275.000])
105.000 [0] (105.000 [0]) for a Lesser
- ([1.00x CWard 105.000]) 105.000 [0] (525.000 [0]) for a Normal
- ([1.00 CWard 105.000]) 105.000 [0] (2.205.000 [0]) for a Greater
- ([1.00 CWard 105.000]) 105.000 [0] (8.925.000 [0]) for a Perfect
- ([1.00 CWard 105.000])
Analysis: Greater/Perfect get much cheaper, because the amount of needed CWards is majorly reduced: Lesser (+24%) - Normal (-2%)) - Greater (-36%) - Perfect (-64%). The mandatory cost is a pain but let's be honest: Few (non-bots) have prayed themselves up to 85 CWards for a Perfect. So I think there has always been AD involved to get these kind of Enchantments. Accumulative material needed for upgrade:
Analysis: 606 PWards is a ton from Coffers for a R10, but since the drop rate of new Marks is totally up in the air it's really difficult to predict what is harder to aquire. I'd tend to say the time to grind the needed materials will go down: Coffers are limited to one per char per week, but you can farm as long as you want to. That said: Guys with limited time could always just invest a few minutes per day for praying and still "progress" in terms of their Enchantments. That's impossible under the new system.
Analysis: Same as above. 85 CWards need >400 Coffers or 40 weeks with 10 chars. That was way too much and given reasonable drop rates the new system should speed up the process significantly. What does it mean? Armor and Weapon Enchantments get a nice boost both in speed and expenses. If you've build your Greater/Perfect from scratch using ADs you should get excited. Not only will the material costs go down significantly, you can also use much cheaper Shards to build your Vorpal i.e. People who preferred not to spend a single dime in the process will still benefit from a speed upgrade, but have to pay a mandatory cost now. Overall this absolutely benefits the players. You can bark about the mandatory costs, but I don't think there is a single Perfect which has been solely created through praying and free CWards.
It's a mixed bag for enchantments. The vast majority of players who get their gear to R7 will face a minor speed upgrade but risen expenses. I personally don't think the tradeoff is worth it. With the Fey Blessing Enchantment getting R7s is really not time-consuming any longer and you need under 10 PWards for one. After R7 the speed upgrade will be more noticeable and while in theory that should raise the availability, the mandatory costs could in fact make R8+ even more exclusive.
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kolbe11Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2013
Feedback: General: Usage
Tried the new system, both the Wife and I, original Alpha testers of various PWE games looked at one another and simply shook our heads.
The system is far more confusing/complicated than the old one and I honestly feel that this will turn people away from the game. Why can't the system be simple and enjoyable like it is already? :mad:
All one need do is look at the WALLS of text in this thread to realize just how complex, unsatisfying and unnecessary this has become.
"It is said that idle hands are the Devil's tools: Idle geek hands, however, came up with gunpowder, nuclear weapons, and toilet plungers." -Illiad
Tried the new system, both the Wife and I, original Alpha testers of various PWE games looked at one another and simply shook our heads.
The system is far more confusing/complicated than the old one and I honestly feel that this will turn people away from the game. Why can't the system be simple and enjoyable like it is already? :mad:
All one need do is look at the WALLS of text in this thread to realize just how complex, unsatisfying and unnecessary this has become.
walls of text are from number crunchers. the current system is very simple. the new system is just as simple... it's just different... and it's better. you will be able to upgrade your enchantments while they're slotted. and swap them around with other gear or with other characters because the cost to unslot is WAY affordable.
out of all the new stuff they're offering up in mod 2, this particular topic has had the most feedback. personally, i want the new system. i've played with it extensively on the test shard. but what they do and how they do it still remains to be seen. hopefully they'll be able to come up with something most people can live with.
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khimera906Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 898Arc User
Tried the new system, both the Wife and I, original Alpha testers of various PWE games looked at one another and simply shook our heads.
The system is far more confusing/complicated than the old one and I honestly feel that this will turn people away from the game. Why can't the system be simple and enjoyable like it is already? :mad:
All one need do is look at the WALLS of text in this thread to realize just how complex, unsatisfying and unnecessary this has become.
So basically anything beyond double clicking is complicated to you? I haven't even been able to get on the Preview Shard and I still got the basics of it. Give it a few minutes and try to understand the new system. Do you really like to be at the mercy of the RNG as often as the current system requires? For me there is nothing enjoyable about fusing every 4 Enchantment of the same kind over and over, and every time I do that risking the loss of at least one R4. Do you realize how many fusions you need to get a R7? The problem is not how complicated it is, but the costs they set for this new system.
I hate dancing with Lady Luck. She always steps on my toes.
you will be able to upgrade your enchantments while they're slotted
Feels fair to say that this is an empty feature with unslotting being dirt cheap.
I agree that fusing was annoying, but for the most part because it was on an unnecessary cooldown. And that sadly hasn't changed (refining also has one). The most effective way to refine is using R4s and you still have to stuff thousands of them into higher Enchants, resulting in the same click war.
Feels fair to say that this is an empty feature with unslotting being dirt cheap.
I agree that fusing was annoying, but for the most part because it was on an unnecessary cooldown. And that sadly hasn't changed (refining also has one). The most effective way to refine is using R4s and you still have to stuff thousands of them into higher Enchants, resulting in the same click war.
unslotting being dirt cheap is just part of the awesomeness. i don't have to build a whole set of high rank enchants for each of my armor sets. i can create one set and transfer them whenever i want. i can upgrade multiple armor/weapon enchants and swap them out at my leisure or swap them between characters. whether it takes less time or the same time to upgrade using the new system... it's still a better system. people can slot whatever enchants they want at whatever rank and level them up. this way, they are getting the benefit of the enchant the entire time without having to destroy it by slotting a higher enchant over it or not getting any benefit because you're waiting to slot a higher gem.
and what cooldown are you talking about? the 1 second processing time?
and what cooldown are you talking about? the 1 second processing time?
It's actually more like two seconds and yeah, that's what I'm talking about. Back in the days I made a small fortune with reselling enchants from bots and on some days I had to fuse 1000-2000 R4s to R7/R8s. I could understand those using macros for that mess, it was effing annoying and literally took hours. Even if that might be a minor issue, I don't get why you can open 100s of lockboxes in a heartbeat but have a processing time here.
I produced several R9-R10s on the preview and didn't bother using R4s as soon as I realized the cooldown is there to haunt me again.
You're right, the system is more flexible and you avoid a motivational grave by losing enchants here and there, but you're also paying more ADs for this feel-better experience. In case of enchantments and runestones a lot more, especially on the lower levels that are interesting for the majority.
I have one simple litmus test on weather this system is better or not.
This new system has me scrambling like mad to fuse as many R7's as I can get. So I can outfit as many characters as I can before this hits. If the system was truly better, why do I feel so motivated capitalize on the old system before it is replaced?
Im dreading it, not waiting in anticipation of it. That alone tells me, that on a primary level, this has already failed.
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kolbe11Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
So basically anything beyond double clicking is complicated to you? I haven't even been able to get on the Preview Shard and I still got the basics of it. Give it a few minutes and try to understand the new system. Do you really like to be at the mercy of the RNG as often as the current system requires? For me there is nothing enjoyable about fusing every 4 Enchantment of the same kind over and over, and every time I do that risking the loss of at least one R4. Do you realize how many fusions you need to get a R7? The problem is not how complicated it is, but the costs they set for this new system.
As a species, we spend our days rushing around dealing with travesties of life on a daily basis and complex social structures. So when we come home or have time off, we like to spend time relaxing. As a result, we spend a good portion of our lives in pursuit of finding things that make our lives more simplistic and easy so we can focus on things that matter most to us. In that attempt, we often spend money for said additional conveniences as they save time, which equates to a value in "savings". Simplicity garters value.
So when you summarize my post as quote: "basically anything beyond double clicking is complicated to you", I feel you missed the point of my post:
The system is cumbersome as:
- Said system requires additional inventory space, which is not cheap for anyone, not even those with 5 Greater Bags of Holding and private guilds.
- Said system requires additional time and effort to understand... Even if it takes 10 minutes to evaluate, this is a lot for the casual gamer, a turn-off for most and one that I personally am disinterested in learning.
- Said system requires additional grind times to acquire catalysts... For the casual gamer, this is another turn-off, not to mention bots will have a field day here.
The new system as a whole may be "better" for the number crunching fanatics out there, but at what cost? For those of us who value simplicity, the K.I.S.S. methodology of life who wish to be amused and not require high level cognitive thought, this "system" simply looks like a huge Obamacare fiasco completely filled with tons of failures for little gained reward.
"It is said that idle hands are the Devil's tools: Idle geek hands, however, came up with gunpowder, nuclear weapons, and toilet plungers." -Illiad
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dardoveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
- Said system requires additional inventory space, which is not cheap for anyone, not even those with 5 Greater Bags of Holding and private guilds.
Since I will be burning through all the various unused enchantments/runestones that were clogging up space in my inventory, I should get more inventory back from this. And I'm sure my guild's bank is also about to get a lot more space with module 2 with a few slots going to spare artifact marks.
I too feel the sense of rushing to capitalise on the current system. Definately not anticipating the arrival of the new system.
I know for the first 5 minutes i'll be happy to cleanse inventory space with the low rank runes into other higher ranks and remove some long standing ones in old gear, but then reality will hit home to the high AD cost and the cost/grind to buy or find greater marks to rank anything up.
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lorenthel1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Some players have commented that the current system on Live is "fine" but we disagree - our data shows that many players are not engaging in the current system due to the frustration of using it. If the system was performing well and making everyone happy, we would not have invested all of the time and effort into improving it that we have.[/B]
Just a little word of advice. Rather than assuming you know why people don't fuse enchants, you should ASK them why. Nobody I know found the system complicated or frustrating, so I don't understand how you got this idea that is why people don't fuse enchants. Any person knows you can't fix an issue without knowing what the cause is.
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ladymelo11Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Wow this is some strong feed back, actually I'm almost in love with this new system, with 1 critical flaw. So the whole idea behind this new system is to make it as accessible to many players. Allowing people to work on the enchantment currently equipped in their gear, great idea! Collecting enchantments to build points to make progress toward leveling it up to the next tier, simplify the day to day process of collecting enchantments and saves bag space. Requiring AD and marks for catalysts only makes sense as you need something to slow people down from leveling their enchantments to fast or cheaply.
HOWEVER almost all of this is invalidated by requiring a catalyst of the same exact enchantment in your inventory!
This is really important because once the people you're trying to help, the more casual players, reach rank 5 or 6 you're going to see the exact same behavior. Most people have no problem slowly contributing effort to a task but once that effort is maxed out, you're then giving them a dead halt and requiring them to refine a new one in their inventory. All of the suddenly you have dissociated the progress they have been making with collecting something else I.E. the exact reason the current system is not working.
For example I currently have rank 7's in most of my gear, for me to level one of them to Rank 8, first I will collect enchantments as I'm playing them game and build R.P. on my rank 7. Naturally I'm feeling progress, until the bar reaches max! I could either pay AD or do a dungeon to get my Mark catalyst however that's not the problem I'm going to encounter its the new lets call it "Dark" enchantment I need to level to make my 7 an 8.
This is when the people you're trying to help will lose interest. I find a rank 4 "Dark" and then need to level that one up, but while I'm doing so i need to hold on to another rank 4 dark, then I get a rank 5 dark, but now I need to do another rank 4 level up to have 2 darks, which I refine the first rank 5 dark to make a rank 6, which I need to repeat all that I'v said to make the rank 7 I need to continue the progress on my 1 equipped dark 7. Which all of this feels wrong, I've been heavily dissociated with the appearance of progress once I fill my refinement meter.
I think you should stick to 1 or the other side of this coin. 4(x) -> 1(x+1) A collection based system, the current system, simple clean, easy, but not everyone is in to collecting.
OR
Refinement system, which should be simply "Earn points" to max a bar + Pay AD (or a reduced AD cost with naturally finding the catalyst) -> yielding the next tier of Enchantment, having elements of both is horrible. If you need to double the RP and catalyst cost/Requirement and have people need Preservation / Coalescent wards to prevent expensive materials or even partial RP point loss to make this work that seems fine to me, but don't go half "Build Progress" and half "Collection" system, instead of helping people who like one style you're just hurting both styles.
I'm going to have to agree here, AD isn't the problem with the system at all, AD are free, enchants and rune stones are free, it just takes time to get them. The annoyance of leveling up multiple gems in my inventory over and over again to keep my gear ones up, and then having to have a back up in my inventory at all times to upgrade my armor later adds a whole new tedium to the whole thing, and then once I upgrade it, I have to start over again on that gem that I'll need later when my armor is ready to upgrade. On a lesser not so important note, the new system will kind of take out a little cooperation that my guild has with each other, as now instead of depositing the gems no one wants but others do into our guild bank, they'll instead feed it into what they want and upgrade that way. Again like I said not the important bit.
1. four rank 5 enchants of the same type give you just an empowereed one
2. then you have to buy the catalyst for 25k a piece
3. you still have to use wards
4. pay 5000 AD for a try to enchant it to rank 6
Feedback: drop locations
and don't forget where those catalysts drop:
in skill-nodes!
Now this will be fun in epic dungeons when people start fighting over the nodes.
If PWE really wants to makes it easier for us, leave it like it was before and cut the prices for removing enchantments to max 5 digits.
I'm doing my best to stay objective here. Can't tell you how I hate it.
However I really appreciate you guys enabling us to actually rank up our equipped enchantments! This is great.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
It's a mixed bag for enchantments. The vast majority of players who get their gear to R7 will face a minor speed upgrade but risen expenses. I personally don't think the tradeoff is worth it. With the Fey Blessing Enchantment getting R7s is really not time-consuming any longer and you need under 10 PWards for one. After R7 the speed upgrade will be more noticeable and while in theory that should raise the availability, the mandatory costs could in fact make R8+ even more exclusive.
I agree completely.
The new system is hands down better for Armor and Weapon Enchancements simply because the Coalescent Ward Requirements have been reduced but for the standard enchantments while the system is better in some ways I do not agree with mandatory AD fees (at least not the ridiculous amount stated).
the new system is just as simple... it's just different... and it's better. you will be able to upgrade your enchantments while they're slotted. and swap them around with other gear or with other characters because the cost to unslot is WAY affordable.
I see your point however I think you are too blinded by the change making life "better" to consider whether it's the way it should be.
They could have taken the old system, exactly as it was, reduced the number of runes required by half and changed the removal fee to be 25K AD for a rank 10 and we'd have a far superior system than this proposed mess.
The problem wasn't an AD fee for removing enchantments, it was that the AD fee was so stupidly out of range that nobody with a brain would use it. All this current system does is take that fee and mandate it gets paid one time per enchantment. If the fee wasn't rediculous it wouldn't have been a problem to begin with.
Now instead of trying to equip every character smart people will stick their tongues out at this stupid cost to upgrade and simply switch enchantments because 419K AD per enchantment is way out of line.
Yeah, yeah 'it is only 419K, that's not bad!' but each character has 14 slots just on their main gear, without including companions, and hat puts the price well over 5M AD to get full T10's and that's unnacceptable. Either put the fee to a decent amount (100-150K per enchantment) or better yet drop the removal fee to 25-50K and don't mandate the overpriced AD sink. Either option would be better than this...
Feedback: End Result:Again less bad doesn't make it good.
The new system is hands down better for Armor and Weapon Enchancements simply because the Coalescent Ward Requirements have been reduced but for the standard enchantments while the system is better in some ways I do not agree with mandatory AD fees (at least not the ridiculous amount stated).
Feedback Analysis:Less bad doesn't make it good.
I see your point however I think you are too blinded by the change making life "better" to consider whether it's the way it should be.
They could have taken the old system, exactly as it was, reduced the number of runes required by half and changed the removal fee to be 25K AD for a rank 10 and we'd have a far superior system than this proposed mess.
The problem wasn't an AD fee for removing enchantments, it was that the AD fee was so stupidly out of range that nobody with a brain would use it. All this current system does is take that fee and mandate it gets paid one time per enchantment. If the fee wasn't rediculous it wouldn't have been a problem to begin with.
Now instead of trying to equip every character smart people will stick their tongues out at this stupid cost to upgrade and simply switch enchantments because 419K AD per enchantment is way out of line.
Yeah, yeah 'it is only 419K, that's not bad!' but each character has 14 slots just on their main gear, without including companions, and hat puts the price well over 5M AD to get full T10's and that's unnacceptable. Either put the fee to a decent amount (100-150K per enchantment) or better yet drop the removal fee to 25-50K and don't mandate the overpriced AD sink. Either option would be better than this...
Feedback: End Result:Again less bad doesn't make it good.
a rant from a moderator means the new system is really really, i do not need to comment as this already speak for itself, i hope the devs realize this.
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uurbsMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 449Bounty Hunter
I have one simple litmus test on weather this system is better or not.
This new system has me scrambling like mad to fuse as many R7's as I can get. So I can outfit as many characters as I can before this hits. If the system was truly better, why do I feel so motivated capitalize on the old system before it is replaced?
Im dreading it, not waiting in anticipation of it. That alone tells me, that on a primary level, this has already failed.
1. four rank 5 enchants of the same type give you just an empowereed one
2. then you have to buy the catalyst for 25k a piece
3. you still have to use wards
4. pay 5000 AD for a try to enchant it to rank 6
It took me about 5-10 minutes to figure out how the hell new system works. It's so complicated in comparison to current one. Now you just have to have 4 enchants of the same type to have a chance to fuse them into better one. You can use 1 of 2 wards, like in every other FTP game, very similar. In the new system, you have to have all the same ingredients PLUS spend AD on fuse PLUS spend AD on catalysts PLUS they are many of them and they are different and there's always need in different setup of 'em PLUS there are a ton of words in their description to explain what they are and where to get them PLUS flooded bag space. Advantages? hmmm..................HMMMMMMMMM.................................
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
It took me about 5-10 minutes to figure out how the hell new system works. It's so complicated in comparison to current one. Now you just have to have 4 enchants of the same type to have a chance to fuse them into better one. You can use 1 of 2 wards, like in every other FTP game, very similar. In the new system, you have to have all the same ingredients PLUS spend AD on fuse PLUS spend AD on catalysts PLUS they are many of them and they are different and there's always need in different setup of 'em PLUS there are a ton of words in their description to explain what they are and where to get them PLUS flooded bag space. Advantages? hmmm..................HMMMMMMMMM.................................
You don't need all the same enchants. You can use other ones to rank up the enchant you want. You get lesser points towards the rank up.
Comments
I've also set up a little poll on the general section on how much AD people make per day. From the 60ish votes, most of them are 10k. Heck, some people even wanted an option for 10k and under. Granted it's a small sample, but that sample is partly why i'm going for a change to lower the AD sink. (Also only evidence I have)
31 pages of almost one side opinions.
I think they are really going to implement this system, even if it will empty the servers?
Feedback: New Refiniment System
Great idea, but screwed with the AD costs and catalysts costs. Remove AD cost from lower enchants, and cut like 50-75% of the AD cost from highers. Lower the AD cost from catalysts.
The way the system is now, you will get maybe 200 players using it, leading to a mass evacuation from players who are regular/casual and don't have a viable way to gather those amounts of AD to make this system viable.
Oh and please, lower the AD costs again after you lower it
However, what those people aren't taking into account is that that is also true for the new (proposed) system, so they basically cancel each other out.
Current: I farm a R5 gem, outlay nothing. I sell it on the AH for 5k AD.
New: I upgrade to a R5 paying 100AD (not sure if that's right, just an example). I sell it on the AH for 5k AD.
So the new system still costs me more. I realise there are other factors, but my point is you can't take into the sale price of the gems without taking it into account for both versions.
Not at all. I'm limited with my companions right now (only have 5 that I've picked up here and there) and I'm still doing pretty well/having fun with it. Can't wait for it to hit live! (also, I've noticed prices for green+ companions steadily creeping up. I wonder if this has anything to do with it)
And the major fact of it all: The current system allows you to make r5 till r6 enchants without spending a single AD. This is the most crucial point of new system, AD requirements even for low lvls.
As I said, the need to cut the AD prices, and after that, cut again. Maybe they will come to a viable quantity.
Don't they realize there is something wrong?
A normal horse upgrade to epic is more expensive then a nightmare... A normal companion upgrade to epic is more expensive then a epic one on the AH...
Maybe the guy who put the AD prices on the game see numbers with additional zeros :P
This is completely wrong. Opportunity costs do not work this way. If you wish to discuss Opportunity costs or as you have termed them TCO then you have to look at what else you could have done with the AD it costs to refine. Such as bought professional assets which can be used to make ad you are now missing out on. Or a better mount which has economic advantages, etc.
As far as The opportunity costs of not selling enchants at the AH it is nonexistent. If Cryptics numbers are even close to right saying that you free up enchants to sell by spending AD will destroy the AD value of enchants. There will be millions of players that only need half as many enchants but twice as much AD The value of the enchants will plummet due to sudden oversupply, and there will be no AD to buy them.
Or it could be that they didn't want to much attention.
Amount of matching R4s (accumulative) consumed in refining process:
4 (4) for a R4 (1 base, 3 for the RPs)
12 (16) for a R5
48 (64) for a R6
192 (256) for a R7 (128 to refine the R7 itself and 64 R4s for the R7 Catalyst)
640 (896) for a R8 (384 to refine the R8 itself and 256 R4s for the R8 Catalyst)
2048 (2944) for a R9 (1152 to refine the R9 itself and 896 R4s for the R9 Catalyst)
Analysis: The amount of enchants is reduced, slightly for R5-R8, majorly for R9/R10. The ability to use non-matching enchants as well will speed up the process additionally.
Amount of matching Shards (accumulative) consumed in refining/upgrading process:
4 (4) for a Shard (1 base, 3 for the RPs)
12 (16) for a Lesser (8 to refine the Lesser itself and one 4 Shards for the Lesser Catalyst)
40 (56) for a Normal (24 to refine the Normal itself and 16 Shards for the Normal Catalyst)
128 (184) for a Greater (72 to refine the Greater itself and 56 Shards for the Greater Catalysts)
Note: The minimum amount of matching Shards needed is 4 (Lesser), 8 (Normal), 16 (Greater), 32 (Perfect).
Analysis: The amount of needed Shards is slightly reduced for Greater, majorly for Perfect. Beyond Lesser you only need a small fraction of matching Shards compared to the current system, rest can be done with non-matching Shards or even Enchants.
ADs [without marks/wards] (accumulative [without marks/wards]) needed for upgrade (doesn't include prices for Shards/Enchantments assuming you farm all of them):
2.335 [1.000] (2.335 [1.000]) for a R5
- (1.000 + [2.67x LMark 1.335])
36.000 AD [5.000] (38.335 [6.000]) for a R6
- (5.000 + [1x Mark 25.000 + 1.50 PWards 6.000])
84.320 AD [25.000] (122.655 [31.000]) for a R7
- (25.000 + [2x Mark 50.000 + 2.33 PWards 9.320])
284.655 AD [81.000] (407.310 [122.000]) for a R8
- (50.000 + [1x GMark 100.000 + 3.00 PWards 12.000] + Catalyst R7 122.655 [31.000])
698.310 AD [197.000] (1.105.620 [319.000]) for a R9
- (75.000 + [2x GMark 200.000 + 4.00 PWards 16.000] + Catalyst R8 407.310 [122.000])
1.441.620 AD [419.000] (2.547.240 [738.000]) for a R10
- (100.000 + [2x GMark 200.000 + 9.00 PWards 36.000] + Catalyst R9 1.105.620 [319.000])
Analysis: Overall it gets more expensive for everyone: R10 (+5%) - R9 (+85%) - R8 (+180%) - R7 (+268%) - R6 (+539%). And even if you grind all necessary components, you still have to pay a mandatory cost that goes from annoying to unreasonable for casual players.
130.000 [25.000] (130.000 [25.000]) for a Lesser
- (25.000 + [1.00x CWard 105.000])
385.000 [75.000] (515.000 [100.000]) for a Normal
- (50.000 + [1x GMark 100.000 + 1.00 CWard 105.000] + Catalyst Lesser 130.000 [25.000])
895.000 [175.000] (1.410.000 [275.000]) for a Greater
- (75.000 + [2x GMark 200.000 + 1.00 CWard 105.000] + Catalyst Normal 515.000 [100.000])
1.815.000 [375.000] (3.225.000 [650.000]) for a Perfect
- (100.000 + [2x GMark 200.000 + 1.00 CWard 105.000] + Catalyst Greater 1.410.000 [275.000])
Analysis: Greater/Perfect get much cheaper, because the amount of needed CWards is majorly reduced: Lesser (+24%) - Normal (-2%)) - Greater (-36%) - Perfect (-64%). The mandatory cost is a pain but let's be honest: Few (non-bots) have prayed themselves up to 85 CWards for a Perfect. So I think there has always been AD involved to get these kind of Enchantments.
Accumulative material needed for upgrade:
R5 (2.67 LMarks - 0.00 Marks - 0.00 GMarks - 0.00 PWards - 0.00 CWards)
R6 (2.67 LMarks - 1.00 Marks - 0.00 GMarks - 1.50 PWards - 0.00 CWards)
R7 (2.67 LMarks - 3.00 Marks - 0.00 GMarks - 3.83 PWards - 0.00 CWards)
R8 (5.34 LMarks - 6.00 Marks - 1.00 GMarks - 7.66 PWards - 0.00 CWards)
R9 (10.68 LMarks - 12.00 Marks - 4.00 GMarks - 19.32 PWards - 0.00 CWards)
R10 (21.32 LMarks - 24.00 Marks - 10.00 GMarks - 47.64 PWards - 0.00 CWards)
Analysis: 606 PWards is a ton from Coffers for a R10, but since the drop rate of new Marks is totally up in the air it's really difficult to predict what is harder to aquire. I'd tend to say the time to grind the needed materials will go down: Coffers are limited to one per char per week, but you can farm as long as you want to. That said: Guys with limited time could always just invest a few minutes per day for praying and still "progress" in terms of their Enchantments. That's impossible under the new system.
Lesser (0.00 LMarks - 0.00 Marks - 0.00 GMarks - 0.00 PWards - 1.00 CWards)
Normal (0.00 LMarks - 0.00 Marks - 1.00 GMarks - 0.00 PWards - 3.00 CWards)
Greater (0.00 LMarks - 0.00 Marks - 4.00 GMarks - 0.00 PWards - 7.00 CWards)
Perfect (0.00 LMarks - 0.00 Marks - 10.00 GMarks - 0.00 PWards - 15.00 CWards)
Analysis: Same as above. 85 CWards need >400 Coffers or 40 weeks with 10 chars. That was way too much and given reasonable drop rates the new system should speed up the process significantly.
What does it mean? Armor and Weapon Enchantments get a nice boost both in speed and expenses. If you've build your Greater/Perfect from scratch using ADs you should get excited. Not only will the material costs go down significantly, you can also use much cheaper Shards to build your Vorpal i.e. People who preferred not to spend a single dime in the process will still benefit from a speed upgrade, but have to pay a mandatory cost now. Overall this absolutely benefits the players. You can bark about the mandatory costs, but I don't think there is a single Perfect which has been solely created through praying and free CWards.
It's a mixed bag for enchantments. The vast majority of players who get their gear to R7 will face a minor speed upgrade but risen expenses. I personally don't think the tradeoff is worth it. With the Fey Blessing Enchantment getting R7s is really not time-consuming any longer and you need under 10 PWards for one. After R7 the speed upgrade will be more noticeable and while in theory that should raise the availability, the mandatory costs could in fact make R8+ even more exclusive.
Tried the new system, both the Wife and I, original Alpha testers of various PWE games looked at one another and simply shook our heads.
The system is far more confusing/complicated than the old one and I honestly feel that this will turn people away from the game. Why can't the system be simple and enjoyable like it is already? :mad:
All one need do is look at the WALLS of text in this thread to realize just how complex, unsatisfying and unnecessary this has become.
walls of text are from number crunchers. the current system is very simple. the new system is just as simple... it's just different... and it's better. you will be able to upgrade your enchantments while they're slotted. and swap them around with other gear or with other characters because the cost to unslot is WAY affordable.
out of all the new stuff they're offering up in mod 2, this particular topic has had the most feedback. personally, i want the new system. i've played with it extensively on the test shard. but what they do and how they do it still remains to be seen. hopefully they'll be able to come up with something most people can live with.
Feels fair to say that this is an empty feature with unslotting being dirt cheap.
I agree that fusing was annoying, but for the most part because it was on an unnecessary cooldown. And that sadly hasn't changed (refining also has one). The most effective way to refine is using R4s and you still have to stuff thousands of them into higher Enchants, resulting in the same click war.
unslotting being dirt cheap is just part of the awesomeness. i don't have to build a whole set of high rank enchants for each of my armor sets. i can create one set and transfer them whenever i want. i can upgrade multiple armor/weapon enchants and swap them out at my leisure or swap them between characters. whether it takes less time or the same time to upgrade using the new system... it's still a better system. people can slot whatever enchants they want at whatever rank and level them up. this way, they are getting the benefit of the enchant the entire time without having to destroy it by slotting a higher enchant over it or not getting any benefit because you're waiting to slot a higher gem.
and what cooldown are you talking about? the 1 second processing time?
It's actually more like two seconds and yeah, that's what I'm talking about. Back in the days I made a small fortune with reselling enchants from bots and on some days I had to fuse 1000-2000 R4s to R7/R8s. I could understand those using macros for that mess, it was effing annoying and literally took hours. Even if that might be a minor issue, I don't get why you can open 100s of lockboxes in a heartbeat but have a processing time here.
I produced several R9-R10s on the preview and didn't bother using R4s as soon as I realized the cooldown is there to haunt me again.
You're right, the system is more flexible and you avoid a motivational grave by losing enchants here and there, but you're also paying more ADs for this feel-better experience. In case of enchantments and runestones a lot more, especially on the lower levels that are interesting for the majority.
This new system has me scrambling like mad to fuse as many R7's as I can get. So I can outfit as many characters as I can before this hits. If the system was truly better, why do I feel so motivated capitalize on the old system before it is replaced?
Im dreading it, not waiting in anticipation of it. That alone tells me, that on a primary level, this has already failed.
As a species, we spend our days rushing around dealing with travesties of life on a daily basis and complex social structures. So when we come home or have time off, we like to spend time relaxing. As a result, we spend a good portion of our lives in pursuit of finding things that make our lives more simplistic and easy so we can focus on things that matter most to us. In that attempt, we often spend money for said additional conveniences as they save time, which equates to a value in "savings". Simplicity garters value.
So when you summarize my post as quote: "basically anything beyond double clicking is complicated to you", I feel you missed the point of my post:
The system is cumbersome as:
- Said system requires additional inventory space, which is not cheap for anyone, not even those with 5 Greater Bags of Holding and private guilds.
- Said system requires additional time and effort to understand... Even if it takes 10 minutes to evaluate, this is a lot for the casual gamer, a turn-off for most and one that I personally am disinterested in learning.
- Said system requires additional grind times to acquire catalysts... For the casual gamer, this is another turn-off, not to mention bots will have a field day here.
The new system as a whole may be "better" for the number crunching fanatics out there, but at what cost? For those of us who value simplicity, the K.I.S.S. methodology of life who wish to be amused and not require high level cognitive thought, this "system" simply looks like a huge Obamacare fiasco completely filled with tons of failures for little gained reward.
Since I will be burning through all the various unused enchantments/runestones that were clogging up space in my inventory, I should get more inventory back from this. And I'm sure my guild's bank is also about to get a lot more space with module 2 with a few slots going to spare artifact marks.
I know for the first 5 minutes i'll be happy to cleanse inventory space with the low rank runes into other higher ranks and remove some long standing ones in old gear, but then reality will hit home to the high AD cost and the cost/grind to buy or find greater marks to rank anything up.
Just a little word of advice. Rather than assuming you know why people don't fuse enchants, you should ASK them why. Nobody I know found the system complicated or frustrating, so I don't understand how you got this idea that is why people don't fuse enchants. Any person knows you can't fix an issue without knowing what the cause is.
I'm going to have to agree here, AD isn't the problem with the system at all, AD are free, enchants and rune stones are free, it just takes time to get them. The annoyance of leveling up multiple gems in my inventory over and over again to keep my gear ones up, and then having to have a back up in my inventory at all times to upgrade my armor later adds a whole new tedium to the whole thing, and then once I upgrade it, I have to start over again on that gem that I'll need later when my armor is ready to upgrade. On a lesser not so important note, the new system will kind of take out a little cooperation that my guild has with each other, as now instead of depositing the gems no one wants but others do into our guild bank, they'll instead feed it into what they want and upgrade that way. Again like I said not the important bit.
Please don't!
1. four rank 5 enchants of the same type give you just an empowereed one
2. then you have to buy the catalyst for 25k a piece
3. you still have to use wards
4. pay 5000 AD for a try to enchant it to rank 6
Feedback: drop locations
and don't forget where those catalysts drop:
in skill-nodes!
Now this will be fun in epic dungeons when people start fighting over the nodes.
If PWE really wants to makes it easier for us, leave it like it was before and cut the prices for removing enchantments to max 5 digits.
I'm doing my best to stay objective here. Can't tell you how I hate it.
However I really appreciate you guys enabling us to actually rank up our equipped enchantments! This is great.
I agree completely.
The new system is hands down better for Armor and Weapon Enchancements simply because the Coalescent Ward Requirements have been reduced but for the standard enchantments while the system is better in some ways I do not agree with mandatory AD fees (at least not the ridiculous amount stated).
Feedback Analysis: Less bad doesn't make it good.
I see your point however I think you are too blinded by the change making life "better" to consider whether it's the way it should be.
They could have taken the old system, exactly as it was, reduced the number of runes required by half and changed the removal fee to be 25K AD for a rank 10 and we'd have a far superior system than this proposed mess.
The problem wasn't an AD fee for removing enchantments, it was that the AD fee was so stupidly out of range that nobody with a brain would use it. All this current system does is take that fee and mandate it gets paid one time per enchantment. If the fee wasn't rediculous it wouldn't have been a problem to begin with.
Now instead of trying to equip every character smart people will stick their tongues out at this stupid cost to upgrade and simply switch enchantments because 419K AD per enchantment is way out of line.
Yeah, yeah 'it is only 419K, that's not bad!' but each character has 14 slots just on their main gear, without including companions, and hat puts the price well over 5M AD to get full T10's and that's unnacceptable. Either put the fee to a decent amount (100-150K per enchantment) or better yet drop the removal fee to 25-50K and don't mandate the overpriced AD sink. Either option would be better than this...
Feedback: End Result: Again less bad doesn't make it good.
a rant from a moderator means the new system is really really, i do not need to comment as this already speak for itself, i hope the devs realize this.
The fee only applies if the upgrade succeeds. Only the catalysts are lost during a failed try.
Because you don't like math.
It took me about 5-10 minutes to figure out how the hell new system works. It's so complicated in comparison to current one. Now you just have to have 4 enchants of the same type to have a chance to fuse them into better one. You can use 1 of 2 wards, like in every other FTP game, very similar. In the new system, you have to have all the same ingredients PLUS spend AD on fuse PLUS spend AD on catalysts PLUS they are many of them and they are different and there's always need in different setup of 'em PLUS there are a ton of words in their description to explain what they are and where to get them PLUS flooded bag space. Advantages? hmmm..................HMMMMMMMMM.................................
You don't need all the same enchants. You can use other ones to rank up the enchant you want. You get lesser points towards the rank up.
And I still gotta use those catalysts and pay AD. Now I'm not forced to pay ANY AD AT ALL. Got it?