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Endless Stealth
parmezana1
Member Posts: 36
Sooooo I joined PvP Domination after some time and I happened to have as an opponent a rogue, whose Stealth never seemed to end. He wouldn't appear not even when attacking but for just a few miliseconds while moving. The thing is I was hitting him with CC but that wouldn't work either as this was nor revealing him neither "controling" him as it should, as far as I know his "ult" renders him immune, but for how long? I have only a few knowledge on how a rogue works but as logic says, we should be able to defend ourselves... When I am being hit by someone invisible and not being able to know how to defend myself or how to avoid his attacks because I can't do it on time, how can PvP be thought as fair?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"With the force of Wind and Ice , I shall rise..."
"With the force of Wind and Ice , I shall rise..."
Post edited by parmezana1 on
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Good luck.
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
PS: Sorry for the many edits, I am a bit sleepy.
"With the force of Wind and Ice , I shall rise..."
People don't make a perma-stealth rouge for fun they just do it to win.
BTW the encounter that makes the rouge immune to everything is called, "Impossible to Catch". It makes them immune to all CC and when cast from stealth it makes them immune to all damage as well. It last 5 seconds at max rank.
"With the force of Wind and Ice , I shall rise..."
The perma rogues that are successful are against poor players. Or they are skilled, and using Greater Tenebrous.
Other then that, Perma stealth is a joke, breathe on them hard enough and they die.
Guys.......its ROGUE ...Rouge is womans make up...
i created a stealthy rogue to understand the mechanics. they don't have lots of DPS unless they have end-game level enchantments.
as far as insulting people who choose this build, to each their own. there is a completely different mentality to the perma-stealth rogue verus other builds.
Faced one that hit like a truck, with tenes and plaguefire. Annoying to say the least.
I've seen more and more during last 2 weeks than before...
And yeah, they are f*ing annoying and much more lame.
At least the perma-invis should be nerfed hardly, if PvE or PvP, being kinda untouchable all time to enemies shouldn't be worth a point.
Well, they are kinda simple to encounter just by kiting them around - but its still HAMSTER, specially in a PvP things like that should not happen. Invisible and attack-disabled would be OK, absolutly I think - also on that, but not 100% invisible.
And the cycle of whining and complaints continues, they will whine, we will laugh.
It was good that you answered and even more that you remembered me. Yes, you made me at some point to lose my mind and to be honest this build is unfair and to be much more honest I hope this to be nerfed... a lot. It is simple. When you were on stealth and hit me, I was unable to react because I wasn't able to see you casting your skills or using the flying daggers so I can avoid them on time, I could only hear them, and I wasn't able to control you at all. After some time I found that RoE was useless so I switched to Icy Terrain, surprisingly it somehow worked. But, thanks for pointing out that you've made a guide, I'll take a look at it and see how can I counter this. Keep up and good luck.
"With the force of Wind and Ice , I shall rise..."
This, is a much better solution then...
This.
I remember everyone who kills me in surprising ways. You adapted to my play style in the middle of the fight, and I know for sure that when I face you next time, you'll be a whole lot tougher to face. I got 1 out of my 3 deaths from you in that match, and those were deaths I knew I wouldn't be able to escape. I didn't have any more dodges, and my ITC was on cooldown. Your Icy Terrain limited my movement space specially when I was trying to contest your node. It covers about 1/4th of the node, and by staying in the middle of the Icy Terrain, all I can do is chuck daggers which only does a paltry amount of damage, even more so if a CW has Shield on Tab. Shield on Tab also has a multitude of other benefits. I'll just post Degraafination's mini-guide right here as it has a good load of useful information about the perks of running Shield on Tab. Can't stress how god awful tanky CW's can get with this skill on tab in PVP specially with how Stealth-based Rogues don't hit as hard as cookie-cutter executioners.
However, as for the question of "Is it unfair?" That I'm not sure about. I'm still able to attack and unmask other TR's before they can unmask me in a stealth vs. stealth scenario in PVP. I can do it, and I know of various other people of different classes who can do the same thing. Stealth is pretty much useless against a person who can unfailingly predict where you are, and IMO this is when Neverwinter PVP becomes more than a button-mashing game where the first person who pulls off the stun-lock/CC chain wins; when you start thinking of how you'll be able to outmaneuver your enemies.
Similarly, other classes present a different variety of unfairness. Conquerors are able to juggle people to death, CW's are able to lock people in a CC cycle, Sentinels are able to out-tank a Guardian Fighter, Executioners are able to one-shot people, Clerics can give people the ability to have tankiness equal to that of a Guardian Fighter's, so on and so forth. A lot of things can be perceived as unfair in this game, but people eventually get around em and adapt. I switch at-wills and class features in the middle of an encounter based on what class my opponent is playing, and I also switch weapons with different enchantments as well. I take the effort to doing all of these just so I can maximize the results of my PVP matches. But then again I'm not the best PVP-er I know.
Anyway, if by any chance you have some questions regarding the build, I'd be more than happy to address them for you. I'll also be putting up counter strategies against permas and other stealth-based rogues in the guide itself one of these days. Just so that fellow players who are looking to step up their game get ideas about how to unmask our dwindling kind in PVP.
As perma, you will barely tickle any of the melee classes. A good CW can easily spot you attempting to use any burst attacks and they only need to change a couple of Powers to negate you much further: Shield and Steal Time or Icy Terrain. Because of its playstyle, it is most effective 1v1, so permas like to take and make a "home" base. That gives you plenty of time to know to change up your skillset to counter one.
So, perma's only real food are PvE Clerics (i.e. almost all Clerics) - who are everyone's food anyway and should never be standing alone on a point.
Even if you did not know how to counter permas. You will almost only ever encounter one in Domination PvP. So, it never prevents you from winning a match because you could just take the other two points and leave the perma playing with himself on the other point.
Get some experience and you will learn how to counter everything.
The only thing that cannot be countered in the whole PvP game is TR's Shocking Execution - an undodgeable, huge range daily that goes through everything and since it is also based on missing HP is the perfect finisher and IWIN button.
First, the build is not unfair. I appreciate that you haven't yet learned to counter it, but it has been made clear that there are some significant trade-offs for that style of play.
Second, please don't ask for nerfs to other classes just because you dont know how to counter them. As has been pointed out (in the very post that you responded to), it has already been significantly nerfed.
Third, people have been telling you how to counter it. My TR is also specced for perma-stealth and he is wonderfully effective in PvE and only effective in PvP with a) a solid team with great communication and/or b) facing unskilled opponents. Icy Terrain, Steal Time, Shield, and Oppressive Force are solid go-to skills when fighting a permastealth TR. They're also solid skills to use in team PvP in general and can wreck the day of most non-permastealth TR's by eating up their stealth and preventing them from hitting you with a Lashing Blade from stealth.
Second, this build can hit HARD, trust me, I've faced GTEs perma TRs and they got nice burst, all while being in STEALTH.
Third, this build's owner soloed (SOLO...) T2 epics. There are so many topics complaining about T2s being too hard, I don't think they are, but hey... many others do. Again - SOLO T2s.
My opinion:
- remove tenes from the game, completely, build will be fine
- long term goal: whenever TRs attack from Stealth, they exit stealth. Simple. All other abilities should be rebalanced for this change.
Being UNABLE to see who is hitting you, when and how renders one unable to defend. That is unfair. And this is the reason I call this build unfair. No matter how many disadvantages this build has, it has something that cancels them all. Invisibility. Yes, it takes time to build up the damage output but the endless invisibility just cancels this disadvantage. It is like being blind and trying to rely only on your hearing to hit a fly! By using Icy Terrain I was trying somehow to see graphics/ice just like Icy Rays do, following the rogue and maybe revealing him.
The only time I use Icy Terrain normally is when I'm farming. Because I'm an Oppressor, Icy Terrain boosts my damage output. It is unconvenient to use it in PvP as it's usefullness is almost insignificant, the frozen area is easy to dodge therefore no Chill stacks on Target so no damage output increase...
As for the Shield, I cannot say I prefer it. Most of the time I find myself dying as easily as being without the shield. I prefer putting something more useful instead of the shield. And as it was said before... Steal Time takes time to cast which is also unconvenient. And yes, I would really like to see TRs exiting stealth while attacking.
"With the force of Wind and Ice , I shall rise..."
Actually, once you've fought a few perma stealth TR, its kind of easy to guess where they are if you are on the tower. If you are not on a tower, that is where it gets difficult to guess, but not impossible. As a CW, you are one of a TR's first target by default. Keep your game sounds on and listen for the stealth activation and you know a TR is near. If you keep your ingame sounds off, keep your eyes peeled. If you are on a tower that is claimed/you are claiming and it suddenly shows that an enemy is on it or that your claiming just pauses, it means a TR is on the tower area and is coming right for your face to probably use LB on. The first step is knowing when a TR is near you or where a TR usually waits to attack. For example, always watch your corners and anything over your head. TRs will sit and wait around a corner for you to talk by on your mount or jump from above right onto you to get the best initial damage. To best find that out, play a TR for a short while and play some PvP matches or even just watch your TR teammates about where they go and strike from. Honestly, its usually very predictable when a TR will strike if you are watching closely. On the other hand, if they catch you completely by surprise, good luck with that.
"With the force of Wind and Ice , I shall rise..."
While i realise this is your opinion, your solution would turn a class defining ability to HAMSTER. A comparision would be to making tab skills not usable in combat. Your solution would punish ALL rogues instead of just the permasteath ones.
Tene's are already an endangered species with NM Lockboxes no longer dropping. Within a couple months (my opinion) you will be unlucky to encounter someone in pvp with them. Quite a few with them will already have moved on to other games.
Cryptic did the least controversial fix. Kill the source.
Hope you noticed where I said that TR class abilities should be rebalanced after the stealth change. Basically in all RPGs I've played, rogues have stealth, which is cool. But sometimes even a simple action like opening a door or passing too close near a mob will ruin their cover - which, in my opinion, is how things should be. You don't ninja-troll attack people unseen and you don't solo epic dungeons.
Just as a clarification, I don't think permastealth is a reason to complain or something, but I would just modify it to a more realistic implementation. Again, without "nerfing" the TR class overall, this would be a tweak, not a nerf.
You attack, you lose stealth... simple.
So by that same token all CW's are unfair since they're capable of locking down a TR completely and killing them before they can get into range to attack. Oh wait, the TR can see the CW the whole time so that must make it fair...
Again, it is a build you have not yet learned how to counter. So there are really three options here. The first is to spend some time searching the forum as seeing the myriad ways a permastealth can be locked down in PvP by any other class. Sure, you have to work to find things, and then have to work at it in game - but no easy button here. The second is that you already have a solid starting point with some of the tips in this thread, and don't forget that PvP is a team sport and not just about your kill count. The third option is what you began by doing, complaining about a build you don't yet know how to fight and calling for nerfs.
Every TR encounter power breaks stealth immediately except for the two that refill it, one of which isn't even an attack.
Having at-will attacks drain stealth was tested and was a miserable, game-breaking failure, which is why it never made it to a live build.
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they would need to re-invent the entire class considering there are feats that increase the stealth meter as well as powers. i don't see them doing that.
I can say that i was used to see them reappearing after a takedown, while now i see more and more getting knocked while still being invisible. You just have to get close to the point where you hit them, then you'll be able to see them and hit again.
Still, it's weird and annoying.
Another annoying thing i've noticed lately, is that prone encounters often do not work. I mean, you takedown on an opponent, you actually hit them while they're not using any cc resistance (ITC, Unstoppable exc...) and you see no effect. Have to say that sometimes it happened to me too: got knocked back by GFs but didn't go prone, for example. May be they messed up something with these skills.
A clarification from the devs would be useful.
Just consider this:
You are a DC and see an TR running to you. He stealthes. So now what? You can't see him, you can't hit him, you can't unstealth him, you can't dodge him and you can't outrun him. So in this scenario the TR will deal the first strike. ALWAYS! and due to the reaction time he surely will hit you a second time as well. Timed correctly and with the right abilities you might be very low on health after an attack that COULD NOT BE AVOIDED AT ALL!
Like in any other MMO I played before stealth classes should unstealth (at least in PVP) when they do damage. Additionally they should also unstealth when they got hit by an area effect. That is the only chance classes like a DC can do something against stealthing rogues. If my Sunburst would hit and unstealth them then it would not be as bad as today.
Those perma-stealthing rogues throwing knifes at you and don't unstealth have become a pain. And most of the time the PVP games are full of TRs so it is not rare to get hit by 2 different rogues with a crit strike at the same time. I just can see the 10 year old kiddies sitting at home after school in their parents' home, laughing and thinking "I am such a good player, look at me I can kill them with just 2 shots". Oh yeah gratz really. Show me the skill please when you can deal damage to someone that has 0 chance to react. Go stand in the goal and let me shoot a penalty against you - with you being blindfolded - and lets see if you can catch one ball! And after you have done that 100 times tell me please if this is fun for you.
Just face it guys: Rogues - in any MMO - are always the no-skill kids-classes (and the Paladin of course). But Neverwinter has gone way over the top with their design. I think they wanted not only to attract the 15 year old kids to play their game but also the 10 year olds.
Yeah the whole stealth-meter that depletes is dumb. The stealth meter should show something like how close is somebody (a mob players shouldn't count) to notice you. Something like sneaking in Deus Ex. Too much noise? Revealed. Too close to the light? Revealed. Dealing damage? Revealed, bonus for 1st shot.
Sure, considering how lazy is the design in most game parts, we will never see something like this. And all we get is the cheese-always hidden/invulnerable TRs. At least they're squishy enough so you can murder them if they do mistakes, and most do, but not all...
Also I don't agree the TRs are all played by unskilled 10 years olds and other such generalizations. Such posting only opens the door for ridicule.
Ofc there are skilled rogues, not stealthing with the masses... but there are a lot who do.
Like yokihiro said, with a DC theres nearly no chance. Seing a TR before stealth is lucky, most of em just come stealthed around and you taking damage out of nowhere.
If you are against one, you have a little chance just by dancing abit around with him - still requires him to fail something and get unstealthed, also requires someone else around you to get rid of him before stealthing again - anyway, 20-30 seconds later hes back again.
Meeting two of these laming kids, prepare to release your soul...
Would also agree on unstealth by taking and also dealing damage.
Maybe I'd be fine with a 50% chance of unstealth by taking damage, but they should unstealth 100% at dealing damage.
Or any other fix to that to give other classes a chance against stealthed...
Edit: Maybe a 60-80% miss chance on attacks while stealthed would also work fine.
Yep just another QQ "Nerf the TR" thread made by a player who only wants nerfs instead of learning how to counter stealthed TRs. There are disadvantageous to having a perma stealth build but no the player still wants it nerfed to the ground. Tons of advice and tactics are suggested to counter perma stealth TR, some even from the perma stealth TR the OP fought against. The OP even killed the perma stealth TR once and still wants it nerfed. LOL:)
Everyone go ahead and ask for more nerfs because every class will be nerfed at the same time. LOL:)
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)