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Guardian Fighter Scrotobagins Regen Tank & DPS Builds

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  • hijo26hijo26 Member Posts: 11 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    any idea for 3rd and 4rth boon??
  • kielblockkielblock Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 10 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    c1r1as wrote: »
    That's correct. Additional points in the power Combat Superiority only increase the duration of the buff after being struck. Since the feat Tactical Superiority makes the buff persistent (and increases its damage) any points beyond the first in the power are wasted... as you can't increase the duration of "persistent." ;)

    Thanks for the reply I'll keep it in mind when I respec, 2 pts extra :-)
  • dkcandydkcandy Member Posts: 1,555 Bounty Hunter
    edited September 2013
    azyrn wrote: »
    What about using two 2pc sets. For example two timeless and two High Generals? The group I run with is still gearing up as well and we are looking for gear that will help us finish the runs (We come so close to getting spell plague down for a chance at a helm).

    In short I am looking at helping do as much damage as I can with a group that is still gearing up with me and having the extra stats from the two different 2pc sets can add a lot (450 arm pen iirc and 450 defence).

    I have really enjoyed reading this post and I have a lot to think about in terms of how to gear up for my group once it has the gear it needs. Thank you for your work and time.

    If you are looking to stack (2) Sets why not stack:

    2 - High General (450 ArP)
    2 - Knight Cap (400 ArP)
    850 ArP is really nice.

    Otherwise
    4pc Valiant - 10% Team Damage
    4pc Knight Cap - 10%+ Team Damage/Healing
  • dkcandydkcandy Member Posts: 1,555 Bounty Hunter
    edited September 2013
    I'm also curious about armor and weapon enchantments.

    For weapon: terror seems really good for team because of debuff, so does plaguefire (although not sure what it means by stacking 3 times. 15% debuff times 3 =45% debuff?

    For armor: Soulforged seems like a life saver, so I like that

    Random: stacking Teneburous on all offensive slot? but doesnt seem worth it giving up all the Power and arp.

    What do you think ?

    Terror = 4% Team Damage Increase
    GPF (Currently Bugged) = 9% Team Damage Increase (Once the bug is fixed and the stacks start to work again, GPF adds 3% Damage increase per stack up to 3 stacks for a total of 9% Damage.)

    Teneburous are PvP enchants for single target burst and you only want to use Greater Tene's with alot of HP stacking.
  • dkcandydkcandy Member Posts: 1,555 Bounty Hunter
    edited September 2013
    hijo26 wrote: »
    any idea for 3rd and 4rth boon??

    700 HP
    400 Damage
  • uniguilduniguild Member Posts: 44
    edited September 2013
    dkcandy wrote: »
    700 HP
    400 Damage

    Though the 4th boon is completely HAMSTER and I'm not even sure you should be going for it over Fey Blessings. It's a ~3 (!!) DPS increase for me bc it only procs once every century. 5th boon (deflect damage) is ~+40 at least.
  • kemi1984kemi1984 Member Posts: 849 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Hey all,

    I'm following dk's build all the way & having some serious fun playing GF.
    At the moment I'm 2/4 pieces of Timeless & after looking at above posts I just wonder is it really worth getting to the final piece...

    A bit worried about you say that KC can be nerfed (played a CW when Steel Bulwark hammer went down:).
    Guess it's wiser to stick to the KC set & holding off ranks 7th till I get a full Timeless.
    Nancy - Dragonborn, SM Guardian Fighter
    A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"

    1). Is SW more dps or tank based?
    2). Yes. I am panzer!
    3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen.
    4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"
  • hijo26hijo26 Member Posts: 11 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    for the dps build tank i have 2 available options for weapon enchantmen.. greater vorpal and greater lightning.. what you think is better for more damage output?? my current crit chance is near 20%..
  • dkcandydkcandy Member Posts: 1,555 Bounty Hunter
    edited September 2013
    kemi1984 wrote: »
    Hey all,

    I'm following dk's build all the way & having some serious fun playing GF.
    At the moment I'm 2/4 pieces of Timeless & after looking at above posts I just wonder is it really worth getting to the final piece...

    A bit worried about you say that KC can be nerfed (played a CW when Steel Bulwark hammer went down:).
    Guess it's wiser to stick to the KC set & holding off ranks 7th till I get a full Timeless.

    No reason to worry about a set being "reworked" like Bulwark because if Cryptic wants to cash in they will do it to any set. So don't worry about it and just play the game.
  • dkcandydkcandy Member Posts: 1,555 Bounty Hunter
    edited September 2013
    hijo26 wrote: »
    for the dps build tank i have 2 available options for weapon enchantmen.. greater vorpal and greater lightning.. what you think is better for more damage output?? my current crit chance is near 20%..

    Lightning is fun and looks cool but Greater Vorpal out preforms when it comes to damage.

    I had a perfect Lightning and switched to Vorpal as vorpal just does more damage.
  • tarmalentarmalen Member Posts: 1,020 Bounty Hunter
    edited September 2013
    Shhh dkcandy.

    Don't go telling folks that lightning is awesome for threat and vorpal is awesome for damage. Just remember that 30% crit chance is the threshold where vorpal outshines lightning!
  • dkcandydkcandy Member Posts: 1,555 Bounty Hunter
    edited September 2013
    tarmalen wrote: »
    Shhh dkcandy.

    Don't go telling folks that lightning is awesome for threat and vorpal is awesome for damage. Just remember that 30% crit chance is the threshold where vorpal outshines lightning!

    Also Weapon Enchants that are based on "Weapon Damage" can be very lack luster for some classes due to low weapon damage.
  • kielblockkielblock Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 10 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Hi All, thanks again for a great post.
    (my character's currently layout: http://nwcalc.com/gf?b=pa5:4zgu7:aybg,13l35ii:6uz5v:60000:b0000&h=1)

    After reading this post I got a stone and the Knights Captain set(used to run the T2 PVP set, working on Timeless) and have to say I really enjoy the Knight's Captain set. (I mainly PVE, DD)

    I'd like to get some advice to help me make choices, I've been testing on the Preview server, but am not 100% certain on my final layout.

    I like the concept of Knight's Challenge + Avil of Doom, but it looks like you can only hit Anvil once in the time KC is up, so is it necessary to put 3 point into KC, also I'm a bit worried KC can get me killed if up for to long :-)

    I also have to chose between Knee Breaker & Griffon's Wrath, currently leaning towards GW for the interrupt it gives, might be more use-full.

    Then just a question on the choice of Reinforce Surge & Wrathful Warrior, on your DPS build you have Wrathful Warrior with Crushing Pin & Battle Trample, would Reinforce Surge not have been an option. (I did read in post that you have not respec and that you do not like WW, so if that's the case just ignore) And on the PVE Tank build you have Reinforced Surge, seeing that one would normally have a cleric, so one should get benefit from WW or does the 1 sec extra prone out weigh it even without Crushing Pin & Battle Trample in the build.

    So this is basically what I came up with for my build (http://nwcalc.com/gf?b=pa7:4lenw:b8jg,13l3n0i:6z551:6uu00:60000&h=1)

    thanks again and excuse all my questions
  • dkcandydkcandy Member Posts: 1,555 Bounty Hunter
    edited September 2013
    kielblock wrote: »
    Hi All, thanks again for a great post.
    (my character's currently layout: http://nwcalc.com/gf?b=pa5:4zgu7:aybg,13l35ii:6uz5v:60000:b0000&h=1)

    After reading this post I got a stone and the Knights Captain set(used to run the T2 PVP set, working on Timeless) and have to say I really enjoy the Knight's Captain set. (I mainly PVE, DD)

    I'd like to get some advice to help me make choices, I've been testing on the Preview server, but am not 100% certain on my final layout.

    I like the concept of Knight's Challenge + Avil of Doom, but it looks like you can only hit Anvil once in the time KC is up, so is it necessary to put 3 point into KC, also I'm a bit worried KC can get me killed if up for to long :-)

    I also have to chose between Knee Breaker & Griffon's Wrath, currently leaning towards GW for the interrupt it gives, might be more use-full.

    Then just a question on the choice of Reinforce Surge & Wrathful Warrior, on your DPS build you have Wrathful Warrior with Crushing Pin & Battle Trample, would Reinforce Surge not have been an option. (I did read in post that you have not respec and that you do not like WW, so if that's the case just ignore) And on the PVE Tank build you have Reinforced Surge, seeing that one would normally have a cleric, so one should get benefit from WW or does the 1 sec extra prone out weigh it even without Crushing Pin & Battle Trample in the build.

    So this is basically what I came up with for my build (http://nwcalc.com/gf?b=pa7:4lenw:b8jg,13l3n0i:6z551:6uu00:60000&h=1)

    thanks again and excuse all my questions

    The issue with WW when you are tanking is you are taking a lot of damage and so the temp health buff is gone so fast that it's better to just take the extra second on frontline surge.

    But as a DPS build with CW's Sing's keeping the trash locked up and a team burning the trash down WW is the way to go as your temp hp is up a lot longer.

    Knights Challenge is a nice DPS boost but as you posted it can kill you pretty easily when you are facing bosses. On trash I always use frontline surge and on bosses with a lot of trash I'll use frontline also because of the high AP gain.
  • hinageshi79hinageshi79 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 246 Bounty Hunter
    edited September 2013
    dkcandy wrote: »
    No reason to worry about a set being "reworked" like Bulwark because if Cryptic wants to cash in they will do it to any set. So don't worry about it and just play the game.

    Hello,
    if you say that, I say that obvious cryptic want cash in more and more, so it will rework everything. I'm worried about this 'couse cryptic already destryed my last stalwart build. now i swiched to Kc and it will nerf also this set? Who say that? Is there any official post? I'm really worried and I'd like that people stop to "say" to cryptic to nerf my set again.

    Why cryptic hate gf? Now people still want 2 tr or 2 cw (better 3) in the most of dungeons for speed up the run... gf don't tank most of the bosses (TR tank), and most of the time its role is the roadsweeper (trash/adds), gf don't "kill" bosses neithers most of adds because TR and CW can easy deal 50k to 80k damage... and also the gf is the most nerfed class and the calss with the most "forgotten" bugs that cryptic will never fix.

    Dunno... someone explain me why cryptic hate gf. Or why hate me... lol
  • hinageshi79hinageshi79 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 246 Bounty Hunter
    edited September 2013
    Hello,
    Ty to all for answered my qyuestions many posts ago... I'd like to ask you all your suggestion/advice again. Ty in advance.

    So...

    After stalwart was deleted from the game, I swiched to KC set and regen/lifesteal build. These are my stats now:

    Gear
    KC set, CN weapon set, ancient rings/belt, gemmed pant/skirt. All runes rank 7. Actually no "pink" encahntments couse i'm poor, but working on vorpal (most damage ench, i think-->more lifesteal) and negation (i think is better tahn soulforged couse my goal should be to never reach 25% life... should^^).

    Pet
    Cat all geared with runestone/ench rank 7.

    Stats:
    29k hp
    6180 power
    17,6% cts (working to reach 20%)
    16,6 arpen (working to reach 24,1%)
    1750 recovery
    45,7% dam res
    9% deflect (it is low, i know but...)
    9,2% regen
    11,4 life steal

    powers/feats
    the same as dkcandy wrote in his guide

    Feelings:
    The buils is great in solo content, but the feelings are not so good in dungeons (terrible in pvp) because, i think, in T2 dung/CN a gf (like other players) need in any case cleric healings and so lifesteal contribution to survival seems to be minimal. So, the feelings is that any gear/point spent in lifesteal/regen si wasted in dungeons.
    I played with other GFs in party (FrozenH and MalaborgC) and the survival was very similar/the same and it is normal because it depend for 99% to cleric healings, but I deal less damage (they all was timeless hero builded with 7k/8k + power); usually i am the first in damage taken but I don't know if this is very important.
    I would have comforted if my teammates said that KC buffs are great, but they (expecially CW and DC) said that they don't notice any difference from KC set bonus. Also the rogue said that. It is strange because they are all very well geared and so the buffs should be consistent. A couple of times the TR said happy "oh great, I just did 50k damage with my encounter", "I did 51k...."; I hope it heppened thankfull to set bonus, but he seems to think no. My CW said that she sometime deals 80k damage (without me, it is a general information) so also for her the buff should be consistent, instead of "not noticeable" like she said.
    So, regen/lifesteal build seems to be indifferent in T1 dungeons (on average, all builds are good), not good in T2 dungeons and totally inefficeint in PVP (but i don't play pvp often). KC set bonus seems to be useless because my teammates don't notice any difference.

    The build is funny, this is the only sure positive point.

    What is wrong? Why i'm not satisfied, in your opinion? Do you have some advice/explanatios?

    Thank you
  • kielblockkielblock Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 10 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    All I can say is that all the people that I have played with really enjoy's my KC set, I regularly get comments in the line of wow 11K power or great a KC set, ect.
  • crowdpleasingcrowdpleasing Member Posts: 30
    edited September 2013
    The buff from KC works the same way as Reckless Attacker and only applies to power on their character and not buffs. If they are stacking power on their pet it wont be affected by it. The increase is not as much as people have claimed of 4K power each as other classes would need to have over 6.5k power without pet buffs or a skill that gives them 2x their power that GF have.
  • trollgretrollgre Member Posts: 297
    edited September 2013
    kielblock wrote: »
    Hi All, thanks again for a great post.
    (my character's currently layout: http://nwcalc.com/gf?b=pa5:4zgu7:aybg,13l35ii:6uz5v:60000:b0000&h=1)

    After reading this post I got a stone and the Knights Captain set(used to run the T2 PVP set, working on Timeless) and have to say I really enjoy the Knight's Captain set. (I mainly PVE, DD)

    I'd like to get some advice to help me make choices, I've been testing on the Preview server, but am not 100% certain on my final layout.

    I like the concept of Knight's Challenge + Avil of Doom, but it looks like you can only hit Anvil once in the time KC is up, so is it necessary to put 3 point into KC, also I'm a bit worried KC can get me killed if up for to long :-)

    I also have to chose between Knee Breaker & Griffon's Wrath, currently leaning towards GW for the interrupt it gives, might be more use-full.

    Then just a question on the choice of Reinforce Surge & Wrathful Warrior, on your DPS build you have Wrathful Warrior with Crushing Pin & Battle Trample, would Reinforce Surge not have been an option. (I did read in post that you have not respec and that you do not like WW, so if that's the case just ignore) And on the PVE Tank build you have Reinforced Surge, seeing that one would normally have a cleric, so one should get benefit from WW or does the 1 sec extra prone out weigh it even without Crushing Pin & Battle Trample in the build.

    So this is basically what I came up with for my build (http://nwcalc.com/gf?b=pa7:4lenw:b8jg,13l3n0i:6z551:6uu00:60000&h=1)

    thanks again and excuse all my questions

    if you like to pve a lot go for WW there are many skills that gives temporary HP, being good at blocking/dodging can make it last long untill temp expires
    if your DC always use atwills that buffs temporary HP you will have temp HP a lot, DC also has daily that gives high temp HP
    you can also replace potent challenge and put it on grit (for me PC is overkill even without it you can take aggro easily)
    also if you have a good CW that good at controlling WW will work even better

    frontline surge only hits 3 mobs and extra 1 sec is not that long
    most mobs and boss are immune to CC so for me its not worth it , for pvp its good but 1 sec is still not that long
  • hinageshi79hinageshi79 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 246 Bounty Hunter
    edited September 2013
    tarmalen wrote: »
    Shhh dkcandy.

    Don't go telling folks that lightning is awesome for threat and vorpal is awesome for damage. Just remember that 30% crit chance is the threshold where vorpal outshines lightning!

    hello,
    because i have some problem with english i can not clearly understand this sentence. does it mean:
    if you have less than 30% crit chance lightening is better, if you have 30%+ vorpal is better? or I misunderstood?
    it is difficult for gf reach 30% crit without loose too much in other stats.
    dkcandy wrote: »
    Also Weapon Enchants that are based on "Weapon Damage" can be very lack luster for some classes due to low weapon damage.

    and you are answering: but gf weapons have low damage so lightening is not so good?
    i'm confused now. I think lightening is very funny and if you say me it is also better for damage for gf i will be more happy...
  • kemi1984kemi1984 Member Posts: 849 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Alright so reading from all above it looks like Timeless is better to buff yourself & Knight Captain's to buff the team - I get it.

    Next question is how exactly does KC team buff works. My understanding is it takes power from the team members & increases it by 60% right? same with the def ofc.

    Sorry for possible nub question but still wondering about sticking with T1 KS or farming Timeless hat & feet.
    Nancy - Dragonborn, SM Guardian Fighter
    A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"

    1). Is SW more dps or tank based?
    2). Yes. I am panzer!
    3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen.
    4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"
  • kielblockkielblock Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 10 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    kemi1984 wrote: »
    Alright so reading from all above it looks like Timeless is better to buff yourself & Knight Captain's to buff the team - I get it..

    I was wondering about the Timeless set myself, except if I missed it but dkcandy only mentions the Grand Regent set (and KC set).

    On the Knight Captain's set all I can say is that I used to run the T2 PVP set, but after reading this Post and switching to KC I'm surviving and finishing more T2 Dungeons than what I did before.
  • mctankypantsmctankypants Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Is anyone running this 2 piece setup like DK is talking about?
    If you are looking to stack (2) Sets why not stack:

    2 - High General (450 ArP)
    2 - Knight Cap (400 ArP)
    850 ArP is really nice.

    I've always pvp'd with my TR so I plan on doing the same with my GF. I am however wanting to do dungeons for the first time and am looking for a good starting set/sets of armor.
    The idea of the 2 piece from each set has my interest.
  • fondlezfondlez Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Is anyone running this 2 piece setup like DK is talking about?


    I've always pvp'd with my TR so I plan on doing the same with my GF. I am however wanting to do dungeons for the first time and am looking for a good starting set/sets of armor.
    The idea of the 2 piece from each set has my interest.

    It is one of my sets in pug PvP when I cannot steamroll through them like normal in Timeless or just want to hold an enemy objective for a while. Yes, its a very good survivability K/D set.

    I would imagine it would be a good PvE set for STR-focussed GF's in particular (due to the ArP), at least until you get full KC or Timeless.
  • kolbe11kolbe11 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    kemi1984 wrote: »
    Next question is how exactly does KC team buff works.

    Knight Captain Definition (KC):
    "When using a power you have a 25% chance to increase your allies' Power by 60% and your allies' Defense by 25% for 6 seconds."

    ACTIVATION:
    - KC active buff is activated by attacking something and can be nearly continuous if you are in action.
    - KC active buff is depicted by the same icon as "rez sickness".

    RANGE:
    - KC active buff range has the largest activation range of ANY other GF sets, covering ~75% of any typical "round" boss room.
    - Loss of KC active buff can occur if: One ditches behind a solid object like a column or bolder, goes below the level of the GF (subfloor) or is tossed by a boss (wing flap).

    DAMAGE:
    - KC Active buff of 60% power increase will help weaker parties out SIGNIFICANTLY, but the gains are minimal on well geared persons. Further, any TR, CW or DC builds WITHOUT abilities that scale with a power increase will find this buff useless (Crit/Stealth builds for example).

    DEFENSE:
    - KC Active buff will increase each party member's defense by 25% of THEIR current defense and does not stack with other buffs they may have active.

    On my KC set, I have buffed Deflection on it and run with 4000 Defense & 1300 Deflect. Seems to offer a descent tankiness that way.
    "It is said that idle hands are the Devil's tools: Idle geek hands, however, came up with gunpowder, nuclear weapons, and toilet plungers." -Illiad
  • wixxgs1chtwixxgs1cht Member Posts: 430 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    kolbe11 wrote: »
    DAMAGE:
    - KC Active buff of 60% power increase will help weaker parties out SIGNIFICANTLY, but the gains are minimal on well geared persons. Further, any TR, CW or DC builds WITHOUT abilities that scale power will find this buff useless (Crit builds for example).

    Do you - or anyone else for that matter - know of a list of powers that scale with power for each class? Cause I feel that the set bonus might actually be redundant for the group I run with. Thus making the set inferior to, say, valiant if it comes down to increasing the team's damage output.
  • kolbe11kolbe11 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    wixxgs1cht wrote: »
    Do you - or anyone else for that matter - know of a list of powers that scale with power for each class? Cause I feel that the set bonus might actually be redundant for the group I run with. Thus making the set inferior to, say, valiant if it comes down to increasing the team's damage output.

    Pretty much anything that is directly altered by increasing ones Power from Radiant Enchants or by having an increased Strength modifier will be effected by an active KC buff. MOST, but not all Damage Inflicting Encounter or Daily powers will benefit with variable degrees from the Power stat. As for specifics, I cannot answer that.

    Well geared people have already hit their respective max capabilities ceiling for their class, so the returned gain is minimal for them and thus relatively unnoticeable when KC is active as they already do so much damage that the added power just isn't very noticable. If you feel that may be the case with your group, it may be best to run something else like High General (+10% Crit Severity for self and team) or just buff yourself (Timeless or Grand Regent).
    "It is said that idle hands are the Devil's tools: Idle geek hands, however, came up with gunpowder, nuclear weapons, and toilet plungers." -Illiad
  • crowdpleasingcrowdpleasing Member Posts: 30
    edited September 2013
    The above information is incorrect. Power does not suffer from diminishing returns so the more power you have the more damage you do. The bonus from the KC is percentage based so the better geared your party is the bigger the bonus they receive. For instance compare a party member with 2000 power and one with 6000 power.

    2000 x 60% = 1200 power
    6000 x 60% = 3600 power

    As with my previous post the bonus is only applied to the power equipped on their character and does not count buffs or their pet.
  • kolbe11kolbe11 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    The above information is incorrect. Power does not suffer from diminishing returns so the more power you have the more damage you do. The bonus from the KC is percentage based so the better geared your party is the bigger the bonus they receive. For instance compare a party member with 2000 power and one with 6000 power.

    2000 x 60% = 1200 power
    6000 x 60% = 3600 power

    As with my previous post the bonus is only applied to the power equipped on their character and does not count buffs or their pet.
    Sorry, "power" referenced above was used in relative terms, not specifically the power stat itself. I have changed it to reflect such. When your toon does so much damage already, adding 60% more power just does NOT feel like much. Try it with a party in CN and you'll see what I am talking about. Myself, mhblis1 and a few others tested the effects of KC on our party members between June & August several times to come up with the data I provided above. We all found that it at least feels like the effects diminish based on how well geared the team was.
    "It is said that idle hands are the Devil's tools: Idle geek hands, however, came up with gunpowder, nuclear weapons, and toilet plungers." -Illiad
  • hinageshi79hinageshi79 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 246 Bounty Hunter
    edited September 2013
    hello,
    i have again doubt and question for you... lol sorry

    My build is damage/lifesteal and I think lifedrinker is bad, so I should find the best enchant for the most damage possibile. Now I have KC set and working to reach 20% crit chance with vorpal, but I'm thinking to switch to timeless and change something else. So, my question are:

    1) If with new build I had 16% crit chance and timeless (instead of 20% and kc), should I still working to vorpal or it is better working on something else? With theoretical 1350 buff on crit I should reach 23% chance, but only sometime and i have to "waste" all my 3 encounters to let the three buffs stack, so I'm afraid that the buff is not so consistent. Of course I could use my three encounter and then the daily, but usually I use the daily before, and the encounter after to recovery AP, so most of the time I will use my three stack buff with cleave lol (or I'm doing something wrong in gameplay?)

    2) after vorpal, which is the best weapon enchant for GF? Plaguefire, Lightning or some other? why?

    I know I did this kind of questions many time, but still confused
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