I still think you're overestimating the effect it would have. While anyways we're both speculating on something which will likely never happen, based on this companies past history with games.
Of active players, i believe the majority, or if not the majority, a sizable number large enough to vastly alter the economy, hit the 24k / day limit
I seriously doubt that.
But, of course, people see their experience as "the norm".
So you, who regularly caps+beyond your RAD, think that everyone does it.
And I, who never even remotely capped except during the double-AD event, thinks that's the common experience.
Basically unresolvable unless we got a block of specific statistics out of the devs. Which so rarely happens in MMOs.
+1 Totally agree - we need to be allowed to refine more per day. 100k?
That would be extremely unrealistic. Again, if you infuse more AD into the market, then you inflate the market. If people see that others have more AD to spend, they would raise their prices accordingly.
ROLL TIDE ROLL
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Higher ups read the forums too. So it's likely they know about this, however, as a matter of personal opinion, I don't think it's really necessary. If you increase the supply, you risk inflation and runaway AD/ZEN prices. PWE won't step in to manipulate those prices because it's the idea of being a completely player-driven system.
Knight of the Feywild pack. 600,000 Astral Diamonds.
That would be extremely unrealistic. Again, if you infuse more AD into the market, then you inflate the market. If people see that others have more AD to spend, they would raise their prices accordingly.
Knight of the Feywild pack. 600,000 Astral Diamonds.
Can you still say that after knowing that?
Yes, as a matter of fact, I can. First off, not everyone bought a Feywild Pack. It's something that people spent cash for, to which not everyone can afford or would be willing to pay, and a limited time offer to boot, which brings me to my second point.
Second, you're talking about permanently increasing the AD refining limit. This has been done to death already over in STO and got pretty much the same response here: When the numbers show that more people are hitting that daily refining cap on a frequent basis, they'll look into increasing the limits. The AD for Feywild? Probably spent as fast as it was earned, and eventually it evens itself out because the source dries up. At worst, you'd get temporary inflation, but prices would come back down. If the cap goes up permanently, then you're increasing prices on a more permanent basis because those AD keep being pushed into the market rather than circulating around. Again, if sellers know people have more AD to spend, they will raise their prices--be it on the AD/ZEN exchange or in the AH--accordingly.
ROLL TIDE ROLL
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
Unless they release concrete numbers, we'll never really know if people blowing far past the refining cap is Super Common or Really Uncommon.
But I will say this general thing - the normal systems in MMOs should never be balanced around the behavior & capabilities of the top small% of players. That way leads to a game just for those players, with everyone else left in the dust. Bad for the long term health of the game.
What if you could increase the cap with Zen?
Not instant increases like 26k but more like small increases e.g <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> Zen = 1K cap increase on refining?
What if you could increase the cap with Zen?
Not instant increases like 26k but more like small increases e.g <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> Zen = 1K cap increase on refining?
This is the only reason this discussion is still open. To let marketing/research take a gander on how to monetize it. This is another one of those threads that could of been immediately closed with the CMs post on, raising cap only when majority hit cap. Marketing and research, good times had by all.
PS. Probably wouldn't mind such an option, as long as not astronomically priced.
What if you could increase the cap with Zen?
Not instant increases like 26k but more like small increases e.g <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> Zen = 1K cap increase on refining?
STO doesn't offer that except with veterancy bonuses--and that's because the game started as P2P, which NW is not. Based on that, I don't think that would be an option--and wouldn't go over very well with the playerbase given the current climate towards the ZEN store.
ROLL TIDE ROLL
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degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited September 2013
Please keep this is mind:
Will raising the AD cap increase Cryptic's sales/bottom line?
No, because less people will buy Zen to convert to AD.
I agree with the OP, but at the end of the day they will never raise the refine cap, they have no reason to but one main reason to not raise it.
If players need a large amount of AD in a short period of time they do already have a option to get it. buy Zen and convert.
So cut out all the BS answers that is the reason and only real reason why they would never raise it.
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tripsofthrymrMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,624Community Moderator
The **** cap on this needs to be raised, ever since the changes came about with BoP etc, I sit at over 20-40K on the daily refinement of AD. I can hardly make decent money now.
I would like the cap to be lifted for level 60 players to 50K-100K a day.
I'm not the only one who sits with the refinement cap for the day, it's insane.
I'm not the luckiest when it comes to rolling hight on gear in dungeons so yeh.
I have had over 100K in the queue ever since Double AD Weekend. So what? The limit is in place to help control exploitive farming (not saying that is you), and to help ensure that PWE/Cryptic make a fair return on the huge investment they put into creating this game.
In spite of BoP there are MANY ways to earn AD in this game that avoid the daily refining limit. If you still want to have lots of AD without spending real money, you'll just have to better understand the overall economy. It is much more nuanced than getting purples that others will pay you for, and there are many opportunities to be had.
Discovering exactly what those opportunities are is all part of the game.
STO doesn't offer that except with veterancy bonuses--and that's because the game started as P2P, which NW is not. Based on that, I don't think that would be an option--and wouldn't go over very well with the playerbase given the current climate towards the ZEN store.
And even then, the increase in STO is just 1000 dilithium a day, right? 1/8th more? Certainly nothing close to the 2x-3x some people have suggested here.
Of course, STO's economy is a bit different, since Dilithium isn't used in the auction house. The most expensive things you might run across (aside from guild projects, which are - of course - meant to be done by a large group) are 50-100k.
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sasheriaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 1Arc User
I was gonna stay off the board for awhile. But this suggestion makes me go... WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA?!?!?!?!
500z for 50k unrefined to refine (and then one time you say, lols).... Do you understand how the Zen/AD exchange works.... This is quadruple facepalm worthy.
For the love of god devs, do not listen to that suggestion, for the love of god CMs, delete it completely so the Devs don't get any dumb ideas.
I do know how it works that is why there HAS to be a balance.
Increasing AD cap won't solve the issue. Increasing the cap would just be as same as my suggestion (silly) the idea was to put out that any idea would wreak havoc to the AD/Zen. That is why there is a cap in the first place.
The only "work around" that can come close that STO did was allowing guild to refine extra amount after upgrades BUT that means people who are in guild can do it and not "solo" players. (which there are some outcry on that)
Buying up all the purples in the auction house for 2k each before the salvaging patch came
Yes this is exactly what a lot of people did, and it's not really exploiting. However since you knew exactly what the refine cap was and that it wasn't going to change this was not the smartest idea as you had a fairly large initial investment with trickling repayment. With that large initial investment you could easily "play" the AH and make more refined diamonds.
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badpanda69Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 2Arc User
edited September 2013
Im lucky if I manage to get 4k worth of ruff a day. But I only really manage a few hours play a night.
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cbrowne0329Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 293Arc User
That just make it sound like you exploited, and would like Cryptic to let you enjoy the results.
Pretty much.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited September 2013
I have recently achieved 20 Leadership on the first two characters I made, and I'm at 19 and 18 on the next two, and have a much better grasp now of how to level that profession (relatively) quickly.
I will say that once you hit that level 20 Leadership mark, even without Heroes (I have Adventurers), you can get really close to the refining cap daily without even trying hard. That's with me generally doing AD-generating Leadership tasks on 6 slots and something Alchemical on the others. That's without receiving anything from dailies, because I haven't even had time to think about doing them of late. Using Footmen would make it harder to actually hit the cap from Leadership alone, but it's not bad income.
Like Kiralyn though, I don't see a need to raise the cap. If you've got a big reserve, chill out, relax and enjoy life and do whatever you want without worrying about whether you're doing things that make rough ADs until you've spent some time refining what you've already got. I do not think people carrying that kind of balance are representative... just look at all the other players who find it difficult to make any significant amount of ADs at all. Increasing the cap keeps players like that even less able to keep up with prices.
adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
edited September 2013
Keep in mind that even if some people are hitting the 24K limit every day (I am one, for example), that may not be the major part of their AD income - crafting, resource farming, dungeon farming, playing the AH - there are so many ways to make refined AD that for the people making the most AD, an increase in the refine limit might be irrelevant.
Hoping for improvements...
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited September 2013
While this is true, any individual player's income from anything other than refining diamonds is moving existing money around in the economy rather than putting it in and doesn't contribute to inflation.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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chidy1776Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited September 2013
I would like to just see either dailies or salvagegive regular ad. I would b happy with either, especially salvage because i think you should be able to farm ad at least to a reasonable extent. Doing this with salvage would get more ppl into du geons without flooding the market hea ily with gear or ad. Dailies done this way would be nice also as it would give me a reason to do them but it would still keep a hard cap on ad inflation. I would just like to see more reasonable and effort based ways to earn ad in a reasonable amount.
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I am beginning to think this works in tandem with many items being BoP (which I perfectly agree with, since the market was flooded with them before). It's quite possible the BoP was implemented with the current refining cap in mind as a measure to decrease the amount of AD in flow from farming sources.
We can only hope that they increase it in the future, for the game does hit a wall at 60, and much of what you can do results in you getting rough astral diamonds, especially with leadership. There has already been a definite lapse in login and dungeon running because of BoP and it would only continue to fall if people cannot refine their AD. It will be easier to see after the event how much of an effect it will have.
I realize that it's company suicide to allow an over abundance of AD from farming in flow, they do need people buying Zen, but hopefully there's a compromise. Even if they raised the refine amount to 50k at level 60. I'd be happier and it's still far less than people were making in a day selling epics on the AH.
Even if they raised the refine amount to 50k at level 60. I'd be happier and it's still far less than people were making in a day selling epics on the AH.
The problem many here fails to see is that there is a fatal difference between refining AD and selling epics on AH.
When you refine AD, you create money, that AD has earlier never existed, but now it does. When you sell something on AH, you trade an item to another player in return for AD they have.
If you let people create more money, prices will drop, whether it's to hard to farm dungeons for epics to sell or not isn't relevant in my opinion, as we're all playing the same games, with the same rules, and I really wished people could see that they benefited from those rules.
Rich players keeps the value of their riches, as changing the cap leads to inflation, which leads to them becoming less rich.
Not that rich players, new to the world of level 60, will be able to keep up with the AD farming in the long term, 24k isn't that hard to reach, and then they are able to in time, buy their gear if needed.
Nah, let's make the cap up to 200k and cause an inflation of the AD currency. Making Everything worthless since it's currency can be created from some drake seals items and PvP glory items.
Seriously...i thought they taught economy in high schools..
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Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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I seriously doubt that.
But, of course, people see their experience as "the norm".
So you, who regularly caps+beyond your RAD, think that everyone does it.
And I, who never even remotely capped except during the double-AD event, thinks that's the common experience.
Basically unresolvable unless we got a block of specific statistics out of the devs. Which so rarely happens in MMOs.
Ah, well.
Agreed! I was thinking 48k a day.
That would be extremely unrealistic. Again, if you infuse more AD into the market, then you inflate the market. If people see that others have more AD to spend, they would raise their prices accordingly.
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
Knight of the Feywild pack. 600,000 Astral Diamonds.
Can you still say that after knowing that?
Maybe 50k-60k sound reasonable?
Yes, as a matter of fact, I can. First off, not everyone bought a Feywild Pack. It's something that people spent cash for, to which not everyone can afford or would be willing to pay, and a limited time offer to boot, which brings me to my second point.
Second, you're talking about permanently increasing the AD refining limit. This has been done to death already over in STO and got pretty much the same response here: When the numbers show that more people are hitting that daily refining cap on a frequent basis, they'll look into increasing the limits. The AD for Feywild? Probably spent as fast as it was earned, and eventually it evens itself out because the source dries up. At worst, you'd get temporary inflation, but prices would come back down. If the cap goes up permanently, then you're increasing prices on a more permanent basis because those AD keep being pushed into the market rather than circulating around. Again, if sellers know people have more AD to spend, they will raise their prices--be it on the AD/ZEN exchange or in the AH--accordingly.
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
But I will say this general thing - the normal systems in MMOs should never be balanced around the behavior & capabilities of the top small% of players. That way leads to a game just for those players, with everyone else left in the dust. Bad for the long term health of the game.
You've got a fair point there.
What if you could increase the cap with Zen?
Not instant increases like 26k but more like small increases e.g <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> Zen = 1K cap increase on refining?
This is the only reason this discussion is still open. To let marketing/research take a gander on how to monetize it. This is another one of those threads that could of been immediately closed with the CMs post on, raising cap only when majority hit cap. Marketing and research, good times had by all.
PS. Probably wouldn't mind such an option, as long as not astronomically priced.
Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
Oh Wonder - Without You
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
STO doesn't offer that except with veterancy bonuses--and that's because the game started as P2P, which NW is not. Based on that, I don't think that would be an option--and wouldn't go over very well with the playerbase given the current climate towards the ZEN store.
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
Will raising the AD cap increase Cryptic's sales/bottom line?
No, because less people will buy Zen to convert to AD.
Thread closed.
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If players need a large amount of AD in a short period of time they do already have a option to get it. buy Zen and convert.
So cut out all the BS answers that is the reason and only real reason why they would never raise it.
I have had over 100K in the queue ever since Double AD Weekend. So what? The limit is in place to help control exploitive farming (not saying that is you), and to help ensure that PWE/Cryptic make a fair return on the huge investment they put into creating this game.
In spite of BoP there are MANY ways to earn AD in this game that avoid the daily refining limit. If you still want to have lots of AD without spending real money, you'll just have to better understand the overall economy. It is much more nuanced than getting purples that others will pay you for, and there are many opportunities to be had.
Discovering exactly what those opportunities are is all part of the game.
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
And even then, the increase in STO is just 1000 dilithium a day, right? 1/8th more? Certainly nothing close to the 2x-3x some people have suggested here.
Of course, STO's economy is a bit different, since Dilithium isn't used in the auction house. The most expensive things you might run across (aside from guild projects, which are - of course - meant to be done by a large group) are 50-100k.
I do know how it works that is why there HAS to be a balance.
Increasing AD cap won't solve the issue. Increasing the cap would just be as same as my suggestion (silly) the idea was to put out that any idea would wreak havoc to the AD/Zen. That is why there is a cap in the first place.
The only "work around" that can come close that STO did was allowing guild to refine extra amount after upgrades BUT that means people who are in guild can do it and not "solo" players. (which there are some outcry on that)
Please review my campaign and I'll return the favor.
Yes this is exactly what a lot of people did, and it's not really exploiting. However since you knew exactly what the refine cap was and that it wasn't going to change this was not the smartest idea as you had a fairly large initial investment with trickling repayment. With that large initial investment you could easily "play" the AH and make more refined diamonds.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Pretty much.
I will say that once you hit that level 20 Leadership mark, even without Heroes (I have Adventurers), you can get really close to the refining cap daily without even trying hard. That's with me generally doing AD-generating Leadership tasks on 6 slots and something Alchemical on the others. That's without receiving anything from dailies, because I haven't even had time to think about doing them of late. Using Footmen would make it harder to actually hit the cap from Leadership alone, but it's not bad income.
Like Kiralyn though, I don't see a need to raise the cap. If you've got a big reserve, chill out, relax and enjoy life and do whatever you want without worrying about whether you're doing things that make rough ADs until you've spent some time refining what you've already got. I do not think people carrying that kind of balance are representative... just look at all the other players who find it difficult to make any significant amount of ADs at all. Increasing the cap keeps players like that even less able to keep up with prices.
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Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
Oh Wonder - Without You
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
Rising Star, fun friendly, community focused guild on mindflayer. We strive to help each other and enjoy the game together. Talk to me for info, or feel free to check and join our community at risingstarneverwinter.enjin.com
We can only hope that they increase it in the future, for the game does hit a wall at 60, and much of what you can do results in you getting rough astral diamonds, especially with leadership. There has already been a definite lapse in login and dungeon running because of BoP and it would only continue to fall if people cannot refine their AD. It will be easier to see after the event how much of an effect it will have.
I realize that it's company suicide to allow an over abundance of AD from farming in flow, they do need people buying Zen, but hopefully there's a compromise. Even if they raised the refine amount to 50k at level 60. I'd be happier and it's still far less than people were making in a day selling epics on the AH.
The problem many here fails to see is that there is a fatal difference between refining AD and selling epics on AH.
When you refine AD, you create money, that AD has earlier never existed, but now it does. When you sell something on AH, you trade an item to another player in return for AD they have.
If you let people create more money, prices will drop, whether it's to hard to farm dungeons for epics to sell or not isn't relevant in my opinion, as we're all playing the same games, with the same rules, and I really wished people could see that they benefited from those rules.
Rich players keeps the value of their riches, as changing the cap leads to inflation, which leads to them becoming less rich.
Not that rich players, new to the world of level 60, will be able to keep up with the AD farming in the long term, 24k isn't that hard to reach, and then they are able to in time, buy their gear if needed.
I think you meant prices will rise (due to inflation). I don't disagree with anything else you've said.
Seriously...i thought they taught economy in high schools..