That's funny, telling us that IF you use it in combination with Chains makes Hammer of Fail a super awesome 1337 Daily is just... wrong.
First off Chains roots mobs for like 2 seconds, Players get rooted for 1 second. The casting animation of hammer of fail lasts a lot more than that.
Secondly, Chains needs a bit of love. In PvE when you catch more than 2 mobs in it you just give them a little poke-poke. The damage reduction on the number of targets is kind stupid if you ask me... since it's already target capped!!!
And if you lay it as trap it won't even trap 5 mobs, just the 2 first ones to enter.
So you cannot tell me you need to use such a crappy skill in order to use a Daily that won't even hit the enemy for its full damage
So, this was a PVP nerf? Okay, but on the other hand, it also lets them dodge mid-animation. For example, if you get a jump on someone, they might get hit with the first wave (1/3 of the damage) and then dodge the other two. So that's around 3-4k of total damage.
Also, I have never killed other player characters from full health with it even when all three hits connect and crit. The kind of monsters that die from HoF are the kind that would've died from a sneeze, i.e. Decrepit Skeletons and Archers.
I agree the nerf was way to still every class seems to have a skill that has the shock and awe but the DC now, the tr cam stealth and then skill lock and if they have a high recovery they can keep your skills locked over and over again, the wizards have a nice puch to their regular attack and have some of those awe spells, the gwf can regen hitpoints and while doing so seem to take little to nothing damage; I think the devs cannot decide what the real role of a DC is their heals are ok'ish their regular attacks are below okish compared to the wizzards and well you get the idea, the nerf bat seems to be a get out of jail free card when they do not really want to put the work into ballancing they just come back with nerf bat as if its a cure all, but then players leave the game because they feel like they have lost all that hard work and effort and I have even seen nerfing kill off mmo's also people get burned out faster chasing flavor of the month classes; also games that have heavy nerfing have a chance on being subject to a dos attack or even worse by anonymous just to give you a heads up because I know a few anon buddies who have done such raids in the past.
Commented in another thread but commenting here as well.
Hammer of fate will get some buffs to it, but it won't go back to the damage it used to deal.
Saying it only sometimes killed people/Npcs from full health is not a very convincing argument for it's previous damage being ok.
Keep in mind that Hammer of Fate can't be interrupted, increases your damage reduction by 50% while casting, requires them to evade 3 separate hits, and stuns the target for a second if they are hit by the final blast. Should also mention that if you are concerned with players dodging it, landing Chains of Blazing Light will prevent them from evading any of the hits.
In regards to it being compared to Flame Strike, Flame Strike gets bonus damage for being a placed attack. Flame strike only deals it's full damage if you hit with the geyser, and if you miss with that there is a good chance players will evade the splash entirely. (The combo with chains of Blazing Light applies here as well of course)
But with that said, Hammer of Fate will get some extra love.
I understand the arguments in favor of reducing HoF's damage now that you're given them, and I appreciate it. The thing that got me frustrated, though, is this: I don't play PvP. Don't get me wrong, it's nothing against the way you guys do PvP in NW at all -- I just don't like PvP gaming in general in any game, so I don't play it. I love the PvE part of the game.
That being said, HoF was most useful for me when soloing the storyline quests (like the majority of players of all classes seem to do), since healing dailies don't do a lot for me due to righteousness. It was the perfect thing for getting me through the mobs in places like Icespire and Pirates' Skyhold (both zones were difficult for me despite being overleveled), and since it's a daily it felt balanced because I wasn't using it constantly -- just when I needed to get off some burst damage, and the CC immunity was a bonus when I was out of stamina for stuff like the multitudes of winterwolves in Icespire quests.
In dungeons and skirmishes it was balanced by the fact that healing and buffing was usually needed more, so I'd drop Hallowed Ground in almost all circumstances instead. HoF only got used in dungeons if we didn't need buffing or healing, either because I'd been doing enough healing with encounters or because we had two DCs and I was stepping in for a DPS role. Either way, its circumstantial usefulness balanced out its damage; I was basically only using it when I desperately needed some damage output.
Now, though, it feels like just a powerful encounter with a super-long cooldown, not the infrequently-used but potentially game-changing do-or-die move that it was when it dealt more damage -- i.e., it felt like the level-50 daily that it was. I don't have a source of emergency burst damage anymore when I need it, and it's frustrating. Not because I was overpowered before -- my DC has never been as powerful as my TR or CW -- but because I feel underpowered now. Normal gameplay has gone from challenging (which I like) to frustrating (which I don't like) now that HoF's damage has been nerfed by so much.
So that's where I've been coming from in whining over HoF. I'm not going to claim I represent how everybody used HoF, because I don't; all I can do is explain the way I saw it. And I can't say anything at all about PvP because I don't play it, so I have no idea what to do with it for that. For the sake of PvE, though, it would really be nice to get back either some damage or some other buff like ignoring damage resistance to make it useful again.
All that being said, though: Thanks. You've taken the time to read through all our complaining and you've been nothing but gracious and helpful after it all, and I appreciate it a lot. NW has gotten me back into PC gaming after years of not playing anything more than Solitaire, so I hope that shows how much I like what you guys have done with it. I only complain because I care; I wouldn't say anything at all if I didn't enjoy playing the game so much.
Pls stop calling this bs pvp because I've played REAL pvp games and none had it where players could spam stuns and cc to see who can stun first to win. Matter of fact they didn't even have that stupid stun mechanic. People had to actually FIGHT EACH OTHER not see how fast three or four people can kill another player that can't move or defend themselves. Without 10000 different stuns and cc's, pvp would be so much more fun. Especially when you play a dc and that's ALL they do since dc's have 0 cc resistance and real easy targets.
Just think if people had to actually use strategy and tactics to play pvp instead of spammin entangle, smoke bomb, takedown or bull charge the whole "fight":mad:
Queen of Dragon Server
Goddess Uniique, lvl 60 DC.
PinkSugar, lvl 60 CW.
Baby Cakes, lvl 60 GWF.
*******, lvl 60 TR.
Premium Juicebox, lvl 60 CW.
Pink Exxxtacy, Ranger There is NO pvp in Neverwinter.
its just the developers are being lazy, they swing the nerf bat when they do not want to do the work, its their magic fix all and no amount of complaining will change this, how do I know? well I got an inside track
Saying it only sometimes killed people/Npcs from full health is not a very convincing argument for it's previous damage being ok.
Only if the the target was debuffed and we had up damage buffs (virtuous procs), and only then if we got lucky with consecutive critical rolls, and only THEN if they didn't somehow evade the attacks. The multiple-hit nature was already as significant weakness for a potential "one shot". If it were a instant burst that happened as soon as I pushed the button, then this would seem more realistic.
You're even saying yourself you would need to apply Chains first to make sure the target couldn't evade! So that's one encounter and one daily combined to kill a target from full health. And that Encounter will need to be used in Divine mode, or it's very likely that it will be evaded. I am not even sure Chains lasts long enough for all the hits from the Hammer to land, just to be honest. If it does, it's not by much.
So I think the notion that Hammer was a good way to kill someone was "Working as Intended". Now it's a total joke. How did Hammer make it out of your play-testing doing 66% too much damage?
But truth be told, I am more interested in seeing Repurpose Soul and Armor Penetration apply to all powers.
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
Commented in another thread but commenting here as well.
Hammer of fate will get some buffs to it, but it won't go back to the damage it used to deal.
Saying it only sometimes killed people/Npcs from full health is not a very convincing argument for it's previous damage being ok.
Keep in mind that Hammer of Fate can't be interrupted, increases your damage reduction by 50% while casting, requires them to evade 3 separate hits, and stuns the target for a second if they are hit by the final blast. Should also mention that if you are concerned with players dodging it, landing Chains of Blazing Light will prevent them from evading any of the hits.
In regards to it being compared to Flame Strike, Flame Strike gets bonus damage for being a placed attack. Flame strike only deals it's full damage if you hit with the geyser, and if you miss with that there is a good chance players will evade the splash entirely. (The combo with chains of Blazing Light applies here as well of course)
But with that said, Hammer of Fate will get some extra love.
I respecced my char and put nothing in HoF anymore. It is just not worth it. You just scratch someone's armor in PVP with a daily that takes a while to build up. There are better options with more impact to use then. I rather go with the Angel to knock someone down (much better if someone charges you or wants to flee). An in PVE the hammer also won't make the questing and grinding significantly faster anymore. Rather go for more area dps in general. Also the Angel is somehow better there. Knocking someone down and then use Daunting Light without divine mode comes handy. Hardly any situations I need to knock ONE enemy back anyways as a DC. I use Sunburst as an area knockback - much more effective.
Overall I can say that Hammer of Fate is useless (as a daily - this could be an encounter power actually, maybe with a little less damage then - it is just too weak for a daily in my opinion). Before it had some use if you were a DPS cleric with high crit chance and severity. But for the more healing or defense oriented DC you can just skip this daily. In my opinion it would be even time to remove this ability completey and add a new one. Something more useful and worthy for a DC as a daily. Something like an area stun/daze with a slow component afterwards to finally have some escape option or an area knock down, even an area Dot or an area debuff + Dot. Or even better a mass resurrection and heal daily. Click it and every ally that can be resurrected is resurrected without walking to him and click him, also a HoT is placed on him and a little ward.
I don't know what special features the devs could add to the Toffee Hammer of Fate to make it appealing again. Canned laughter, maybe?
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cbrowne0329Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 293Arc User
edited September 2013
As someone who plays all classes... the HoF nerf doesn't bother me... I still use it for single target damage and it works out well. I still hit for about 8 to 15K with it, so I just time it on a class... Forgemasters flame to slow them Daunting Light to burn them... HoF or Flame stike to finish them off... but I'm a cleric na understand that HEALING is my maan contribution... even in PVP.
I refuse to be a healbot so others can play the game for me.
If every other class in the game can solo quests in whites / greens just fine because they deal enough damage, why shouldn't I? HoF is a lifesaver in late-game mobs / boss fights and it doesn't pack the necessary punch anymore.
ausdoerrtMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited September 2013
Dang, missed this. This is BS through and through. HoF wasn't all that strong before the nerf - ffs, it's a daily, and it competed for damage on encounter crits. Still, it was a mildly useful situational power.
Now I just don't see anyone wasting a slot on this useless PoS.
And way to encourage people to play one of the most sought-after and least-populated classes in the game. MMOs come and go, but devs never learn, and support classes always suffer /sigh
As someone who plays all classes... the HoF nerf doesn't bother me... I still use it for single target damage and it works out well. I still hit for about 8 to 15K with it, so I just time it on a class... Forgemasters flame to slow them Daunting Light to burn them... HoF or Flame stike to finish them off... but I'm a cleric na understand that HEALING is my maan contribution... even in PVP.
A CLERIC isn't necessarily a HEALER /facepalm
Otherwise let's nerf wizards damage to the ground since they're controllers, and GF and GWF damage while we're at it, cause they're supposed to be tanks...
I've got to say, I downright hate it when people go around with the "this is the only way you're supposed to play the class" attitudes.
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cbrowne0329Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 293Arc User
My healing is awesome.... NOW. Unlike all my other classes though... I actually respecced and followed a guide. Why because it sucked, and I was dying often. The only viable path for a cleric is the middle one... where you max out Foresight for your feats. However, I have heard our healing sucks from clerics in EVERY MMO I have ever played. and I've played a healing class in EVERY MMO I have ever played.
Our healing doesn't suck at all... now targeting for healing word etc... that's a different story! Check out the cleric guide on these forums... It's AWESOME!
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cbrowne0329Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 293Arc User
Are you saying that the ONLY healing class in this game is not that!?
What he's saying is that saying a DC is only good for healing is like saying a GF is only good for drawing aggro and blocking. Forget about actually attacking and damaging -- just do the thing that only you can do because only you can do it.
The problem is that you will die using that logic, because there are only so many targets your other party members can take at a time, and there will be many, many times when there are too many and they can't attack what's attacking you. You need to be able to deal damage on your own, regardless of what class you play. That's what the problem is with HoF being nerfed.
ausdoerrtMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited September 2013
^ Agreed, that's one way to explain it. In fact, I regularly see healers who focus too much on their support role, suffer from it, and don't understand what's wrong. In this game just like in many other MMOs.
Another is, I have a cleric who is attack first, support second, and he feels absolutely adequate in dungeons. Everyone has their playstyle, and uses different ways to accomplish the same goals.
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cbrowne0329Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 293Arc User
What he's saying is that saying a DC is only good for healing is like saying a GF is only good for drawing aggro and blocking. Forget about actually attacking and damaging -- just do the thing that only you can do because only you can do it.
The problem is that you will die using that logic, because there are only so many targets your other party members can take at a time, and there will be many, many times when there are too many and they can't attack what's attacking you. You need to be able to deal damage on your own, regardless of what class you play. That's what the problem is with HoF being nerfed.
Okay but why would a cleric be using HoF in a dungeon instead of say Hallowed Ground? If you say he might be the only person alive... then FAIL... if you say soloing... see above! It's not that big of a nerf... If I can still hit from 8to15K with it then what's the problem... sure I don't get the 22K I used to... but I don't get those crits with my shocking execution with my TR anymore either.
People complain all the time about the TRs old one shot... before the nerf... my TR was getting one shot but DCs using HoF... and he is nowhere near being squishy Full Swash 11K GS, 23KHPs,def 980, etc, etc.
So if you can justify nerfing the SE down from 27 - 56K to 2 - 15K, you can justify nerfing the HoF from my 9-22K down to 8to15K. OR do you believe DCs should be able to one-shot but a pure DPS class shouldn't?
Speaking as a full support cleric with 12+ K GS and miracle healer set ... as good support cleric healing is around 1/4 of the damage that is done by an average damage dealer and maybe 1/6 of a very good damage dealer.
Your healing/damage migration only works because the most amount of damage is already somehow fend off of by a good player himself. So, in fact any good player migrate already more damage then a cleric.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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tang56Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Okay but why would a cleric be using HoF in a dungeon instead of say Hallowed Ground? If you say he might be the only person alive... then FAIL... if you say soloing... see above! It's not that big of a nerf... If I can still hit from 8to15K with it then what's the problem... sure I don't get the 22K I used to... but I don't get those crits with my shocking execution with my TR anymore either.
People complain all the time about the TRs old one shot... before the nerf... my TR was getting one shot but DCs using HoF... and he is nowhere near being squishy Full Swash 11K GS, 23KHPs,def 980, etc, etc.
So if you can justify nerfing the SE down from 27 - 56K to 2 - 15K, you can justify nerfing the HoF from my 9-22K down to 8to15K. OR do you believe DCs should be able to one-shot but a pure DPS class shouldn't?
IMO, Hammer of Fail should do significantly more damage than Daunting light as it's a) daily power and b) single target. As it is, my HoF hits for around 4-7k per orb so around 12 to 21k total. My divine DL often hits in an AOE for 15 to 22k. Doesn't make sense.
Cryptic has been to confused as to the role of the Devoted Cleric since it's inception. At best their approach has been comical, at worst just plain inept.
Okay but why would a cleric be using HoF in a dungeon instead of say Hallowed Ground? If you say he might be the only person alive... then FAIL... if you say soloing... see above! It's not that big of a nerf... If I can still hit from 8to15K with it then what's the problem... sure I don't get the 22K I used to... but I don't get those crits with my shocking execution with my TR anymore either.
People complain all the time about the TRs old one shot... before the nerf... my TR was getting one shot but DCs using HoF... and he is nowhere near being squishy Full Swash 11K GS, 23KHPs,def 980, etc, etc.
So if you can justify nerfing the SE down from 27 - 56K to 2 - 15K, you can justify nerfing the HoF from my 9-22K down to 8to15K. OR do you believe DCs should be able to one-shot but a pure DPS class shouldn't?
Because when you've dropped Astral Shield and burst-healed everyone with FF, you don't need more healing or buffing -- you need to take out the big bads, which is what HoF is for. Not to mention that outside of dungeons, DCs can and should be able to solo quests like every other class can, and Hallowed Ground is useless when soloing because it does not buff enough nor heal fast enough to get you out of bad situations. Yes, I've tried it. Yes, it's useless.
I have no problems with a DC one-shotting any other class if his/her stats / gear / etc. are superior, no more than I have problems with a TR one-shotting any other class for the same reasons. The problem of classes one-shotting at all is a topic for why PvP is inherently flawed and needs to be reworked, but if one class can do it, then they all need to be able to do it in the name of balance. HoF does not concern me in PvP; its uselessness in PvE is what concerns me.
Frankly, I don't care what SE does. This thread isn't about that. If you have a problem with it and think it needs a second look, make a thread about it.
My healing is awesome.... NOW. Unlike all my other classes though... I actually respecced and followed a guide. Why because it sucked, and I was dying often. The only viable path for a cleric is the middle one... where you max out Foresight for your feats. However, I have heard our healing sucks from clerics in EVERY MMO I have ever played. and I've played a healing class in EVERY MMO I have ever played.
Our healing doesn't suck at all... now targeting for healing word etc... that's a different story! Check out the cleric guide on these forums... It's AWESOME!
Most of the builds and guides on here aren't that great. I see some suggest stuff like Healing Action. What a joke. If any build doesn't specifically tell you NOT to take it, just run away.
My biggest burst heal (BoH) says it heals for a maximum of 2,388k on the tooltip. I have about 24k HP. Ten percent? That's pretty pathetic. That's with 23 Wis, 5k Power, and Ancient Symbol -- it doesn't get much better. Okay, divine Healing Word might be a little bigger. But that both takes a pip of DP and requires you to be able to target it. I can't tell you how many times I've been aiming at someone about to die, and shake my head as the blue bolt flies towards someone at full health and turns me to face them.
Our heals DO suck. Any good DC will admit that. It's our damage mitigation that really makes the difference. What we can do healing-wise is provide a relatively constant stream of healing-over-time or "maintenance" healing. In case of emergency, we really only have one useful power, and that's Divine Armor. Which is totally backwards in a game with both Life Steal and Regeneration available to all characters. We actually need more burst healing and less healing-over-time.
Are you saying that the ONLY healing class in this game is not that!?
We are definitely NOT the only "healing" class in the game. Every single class can self-heal with Regen and Life Steal. With Life Steal, they may actually be able to self-heal better than we can heal them. Some classes have actual powers that give them TempHP and self-healing.
To say the DC is the only healing class in the game is just not true. We are the only class that can heal others. (Well, a Renegade CW can proc Chaotic Growth, which is 3% heal a second... but shhh.)
That said, we don't have much room to focus on self-healing options without seriously gimping ourselves in other ways. And you might think we don't need them because we have actual heals. But the heals we have are nerfed so badly that Life Steal and Regen are actually better than our own heals for self-healing.
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ausdoerrtMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Cryptic has been to confused as to the role of the Devoted Cleric since it's inception. At best their approach has been comical, at worst just plain inept.
I think it's the players who are confused (it's hard to grasp that a cleric can be something else than a hjealbawt, I know), while the idea of a Devoted Cleric makes complete sense as it is.
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cbrowne0329Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 293Arc User
IMO, Hammer of Fail should do significantly more damage than Daunting light as it's a) daily power and b) single target. As it is, my HoF hits for around 4-7k per orb so around 12 to 21k total. My divine DL often hits in an AOE for 15 to 22k. Doesn't make sense.
I disagree with that as HoF follows you / where as Daunting Light you have to aim and can miss.
Again compare to TR... My Lashing blade does anywhere from 5-25K, my SE maxes at about 15K... one followed you one didn't. Seems like the model here.
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cbrowne0329Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 293Arc User
Frankly, I don't care what SE does. This thread isn't about that. If you have a problem with it and think it needs a second look, make a thread about it.
Understood... but the point I'm trying to make is... they are TRYING to be consistent with what they are doing across the board. It's happened to 3 of the classes already. This is not about PVP, but PVP is where you can clearly see how they can justify a power being "over-powered".
Quite frankly I almost never used HoF in dungeons when I was solo-leveling as it was single target and Flame Strike did the same amount of damage to multiple targets. Did it rule against bosses... no not really. Daunting Light + ForgeMasters flame were and still are my main weapon when soloing.
Comments
First off Chains roots mobs for like 2 seconds, Players get rooted for 1 second. The casting animation of hammer of fail lasts a lot more than that.
Secondly, Chains needs a bit of love. In PvE when you catch more than 2 mobs in it you just give them a little poke-poke. The damage reduction on the number of targets is kind stupid if you ask me... since it's already target capped!!!
And if you lay it as trap it won't even trap 5 mobs, just the 2 first ones to enter.
So you cannot tell me you need to use such a crappy skill in order to use a Daily that won't even hit the enemy for its full damage
I want this class in NW.
So, this was a PVP nerf? Okay, but on the other hand, it also lets them dodge mid-animation. For example, if you get a jump on someone, they might get hit with the first wave (1/3 of the damage) and then dodge the other two. So that's around 3-4k of total damage.
Also, I have never killed other player characters from full health with it even when all three hits connect and crit. The kind of monsters that die from HoF are the kind that would've died from a sneeze, i.e. Decrepit Skeletons and Archers.
I understand the arguments in favor of reducing HoF's damage now that you're given them, and I appreciate it. The thing that got me frustrated, though, is this: I don't play PvP. Don't get me wrong, it's nothing against the way you guys do PvP in NW at all -- I just don't like PvP gaming in general in any game, so I don't play it. I love the PvE part of the game.
That being said, HoF was most useful for me when soloing the storyline quests (like the majority of players of all classes seem to do), since healing dailies don't do a lot for me due to righteousness. It was the perfect thing for getting me through the mobs in places like Icespire and Pirates' Skyhold (both zones were difficult for me despite being overleveled), and since it's a daily it felt balanced because I wasn't using it constantly -- just when I needed to get off some burst damage, and the CC immunity was a bonus when I was out of stamina for stuff like the multitudes of winterwolves in Icespire quests.
In dungeons and skirmishes it was balanced by the fact that healing and buffing was usually needed more, so I'd drop Hallowed Ground in almost all circumstances instead. HoF only got used in dungeons if we didn't need buffing or healing, either because I'd been doing enough healing with encounters or because we had two DCs and I was stepping in for a DPS role. Either way, its circumstantial usefulness balanced out its damage; I was basically only using it when I desperately needed some damage output.
Now, though, it feels like just a powerful encounter with a super-long cooldown, not the infrequently-used but potentially game-changing do-or-die move that it was when it dealt more damage -- i.e., it felt like the level-50 daily that it was. I don't have a source of emergency burst damage anymore when I need it, and it's frustrating. Not because I was overpowered before -- my DC has never been as powerful as my TR or CW -- but because I feel underpowered now. Normal gameplay has gone from challenging (which I like) to frustrating (which I don't like) now that HoF's damage has been nerfed by so much.
So that's where I've been coming from in whining over HoF. I'm not going to claim I represent how everybody used HoF, because I don't; all I can do is explain the way I saw it. And I can't say anything at all about PvP because I don't play it, so I have no idea what to do with it for that. For the sake of PvE, though, it would really be nice to get back either some damage or some other buff like ignoring damage resistance to make it useful again.
All that being said, though: Thanks. You've taken the time to read through all our complaining and you've been nothing but gracious and helpful after it all, and I appreciate it a lot. NW has gotten me back into PC gaming after years of not playing anything more than Solitaire, so I hope that shows how much I like what you guys have done with it. I only complain because I care; I wouldn't say anything at all if I didn't enjoy playing the game so much.
Kaylee Krankenwagen, level 60 GF | Tavandruil Wayfinder, level 49 GWF | Aldith Langley, level 51 HR
Just think if people had to actually use strategy and tactics to play pvp instead of spammin entangle, smoke bomb, takedown or bull charge the whole "fight":mad:
PinkSugar, lvl 60 CW.
Baby Cakes, lvl 60 GWF.
*******, lvl 60 TR.
Premium Juicebox, lvl 60 CW.
Pink Exxxtacy, Ranger
There is NO pvp in Neverwinter.
Only if the the target was debuffed and we had up damage buffs (virtuous procs), and only then if we got lucky with consecutive critical rolls, and only THEN if they didn't somehow evade the attacks. The multiple-hit nature was already as significant weakness for a potential "one shot". If it were a instant burst that happened as soon as I pushed the button, then this would seem more realistic.
You're even saying yourself you would need to apply Chains first to make sure the target couldn't evade! So that's one encounter and one daily combined to kill a target from full health. And that Encounter will need to be used in Divine mode, or it's very likely that it will be evaded. I am not even sure Chains lasts long enough for all the hits from the Hammer to land, just to be honest. If it does, it's not by much.
So I think the notion that Hammer was a good way to kill someone was "Working as Intended". Now it's a total joke. How did Hammer make it out of your play-testing doing 66% too much damage?
But truth be told, I am more interested in seeing Repurpose Soul and Armor Penetration apply to all powers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6nLETM70AI
It is not even daly.!!
Overall I can say that Hammer of Fate is useless (as a daily - this could be an encounter power actually, maybe with a little less damage then - it is just too weak for a daily in my opinion). Before it had some use if you were a DPS cleric with high crit chance and severity. But for the more healing or defense oriented DC you can just skip this daily. In my opinion it would be even time to remove this ability completey and add a new one. Something more useful and worthy for a DC as a daily. Something like an area stun/daze with a slow component afterwards to finally have some escape option or an area knock down, even an area Dot or an area debuff + Dot. Or even better a mass resurrection and heal daily. Click it and every ally that can be resurrected is resurrected without walking to him and click him, also a HoT is placed on him and a little ward.
If every other class in the game can solo quests in whites / greens just fine because they deal enough damage, why shouldn't I? HoF is a lifesaver in late-game mobs / boss fights and it doesn't pack the necessary punch anymore.
Kaylee Krankenwagen, level 60 GF | Tavandruil Wayfinder, level 49 GWF | Aldith Langley, level 51 HR
Too bad our healing sucks, too.
that's like... Cryptic balancing stuff!
I want this class in NW.
Now I just don't see anyone wasting a slot on this useless PoS.
And way to encourage people to play one of the most sought-after and least-populated classes in the game. MMOs come and go, but devs never learn, and support classes always suffer /sigh
A CLERIC isn't necessarily a HEALER /facepalm
Otherwise let's nerf wizards damage to the ground since they're controllers, and GF and GWF damage while we're at it, cause they're supposed to be tanks...
I've got to say, I downright hate it when people go around with the "this is the only way you're supposed to play the class" attitudes.
My healing is awesome.... NOW. Unlike all my other classes though... I actually respecced and followed a guide. Why because it sucked, and I was dying often. The only viable path for a cleric is the middle one... where you max out Foresight for your feats. However, I have heard our healing sucks from clerics in EVERY MMO I have ever played. and I've played a healing class in EVERY MMO I have ever played.
Our healing doesn't suck at all... now targeting for healing word etc... that's a different story! Check out the cleric guide on these forums... It's AWESOME!
Are you saying that the ONLY healing class in this game is not that!?
What he's saying is that saying a DC is only good for healing is like saying a GF is only good for drawing aggro and blocking. Forget about actually attacking and damaging -- just do the thing that only you can do because only you can do it.
The problem is that you will die using that logic, because there are only so many targets your other party members can take at a time, and there will be many, many times when there are too many and they can't attack what's attacking you. You need to be able to deal damage on your own, regardless of what class you play. That's what the problem is with HoF being nerfed.
Kaylee Krankenwagen, level 60 GF | Tavandruil Wayfinder, level 49 GWF | Aldith Langley, level 51 HR
Another is, I have a cleric who is attack first, support second, and he feels absolutely adequate in dungeons. Everyone has their playstyle, and uses different ways to accomplish the same goals.
Okay but why would a cleric be using HoF in a dungeon instead of say Hallowed Ground? If you say he might be the only person alive... then FAIL... if you say soloing... see above! It's not that big of a nerf... If I can still hit from 8to15K with it then what's the problem... sure I don't get the 22K I used to... but I don't get those crits with my shocking execution with my TR anymore either.
People complain all the time about the TRs old one shot... before the nerf... my TR was getting one shot but DCs using HoF... and he is nowhere near being squishy Full Swash 11K GS, 23KHPs,def 980, etc, etc.
So if you can justify nerfing the SE down from 27 - 56K to 2 - 15K, you can justify nerfing the HoF from my 9-22K down to 8to15K. OR do you believe DCs should be able to one-shot but a pure DPS class shouldn't?
Your healing/damage migration only works because the most amount of damage is already somehow fend off of by a good player himself. So, in fact any good player migrate already more damage then a cleric.
IMO, Hammer of Fail should do significantly more damage than Daunting light as it's a) daily power and b) single target. As it is, my HoF hits for around 4-7k per orb so around 12 to 21k total. My divine DL often hits in an AOE for 15 to 22k. Doesn't make sense.
Because when you've dropped Astral Shield and burst-healed everyone with FF, you don't need more healing or buffing -- you need to take out the big bads, which is what HoF is for. Not to mention that outside of dungeons, DCs can and should be able to solo quests like every other class can, and Hallowed Ground is useless when soloing because it does not buff enough nor heal fast enough to get you out of bad situations. Yes, I've tried it. Yes, it's useless.
I have no problems with a DC one-shotting any other class if his/her stats / gear / etc. are superior, no more than I have problems with a TR one-shotting any other class for the same reasons. The problem of classes one-shotting at all is a topic for why PvP is inherently flawed and needs to be reworked, but if one class can do it, then they all need to be able to do it in the name of balance. HoF does not concern me in PvP; its uselessness in PvE is what concerns me.
Frankly, I don't care what SE does. This thread isn't about that. If you have a problem with it and think it needs a second look, make a thread about it.
Kaylee Krankenwagen, level 60 GF | Tavandruil Wayfinder, level 49 GWF | Aldith Langley, level 51 HR
Most of the builds and guides on here aren't that great. I see some suggest stuff like Healing Action. What a joke. If any build doesn't specifically tell you NOT to take it, just run away.
My biggest burst heal (BoH) says it heals for a maximum of 2,388k on the tooltip. I have about 24k HP. Ten percent? That's pretty pathetic. That's with 23 Wis, 5k Power, and Ancient Symbol -- it doesn't get much better. Okay, divine Healing Word might be a little bigger. But that both takes a pip of DP and requires you to be able to target it. I can't tell you how many times I've been aiming at someone about to die, and shake my head as the blue bolt flies towards someone at full health and turns me to face them.
Our heals DO suck. Any good DC will admit that. It's our damage mitigation that really makes the difference. What we can do healing-wise is provide a relatively constant stream of healing-over-time or "maintenance" healing. In case of emergency, we really only have one useful power, and that's Divine Armor. Which is totally backwards in a game with both Life Steal and Regeneration available to all characters. We actually need more burst healing and less healing-over-time.
We are definitely NOT the only "healing" class in the game. Every single class can self-heal with Regen and Life Steal. With Life Steal, they may actually be able to self-heal better than we can heal them. Some classes have actual powers that give them TempHP and self-healing.
To say the DC is the only healing class in the game is just not true. We are the only class that can heal others. (Well, a Renegade CW can proc Chaotic Growth, which is 3% heal a second... but shhh.)
That said, we don't have much room to focus on self-healing options without seriously gimping ourselves in other ways. And you might think we don't need them because we have actual heals. But the heals we have are nerfed so badly that Life Steal and Regen are actually better than our own heals for self-healing.
I think it's the players who are confused (it's hard to grasp that a cleric can be something else than a hjealbawt, I know), while the idea of a Devoted Cleric makes complete sense as it is.
I disagree with that as HoF follows you / where as Daunting Light you have to aim and can miss.
Again compare to TR... My Lashing blade does anywhere from 5-25K, my SE maxes at about 15K... one followed you one didn't. Seems like the model here.
Understood... but the point I'm trying to make is... they are TRYING to be consistent with what they are doing across the board. It's happened to 3 of the classes already. This is not about PVP, but PVP is where you can clearly see how they can justify a power being "over-powered".
Quite frankly I almost never used HoF in dungeons when I was solo-leveling as it was single target and Flame Strike did the same amount of damage to multiple targets. Did it rule against bosses... no not really. Daunting Light + ForgeMasters flame were and still are my main weapon when soloing.