Just my two cents here.
I play the DC as my first character and i've developed a build that made me enjoy this class, at least until the last update (for those interested here is my build, mainly a buffer/debuffer).
Concerning the matter about the Hammer of Fate, after the patch i'm able to do a little more damage with just Daunting Light than HoF, so i've took out that Daily my skills choice.
Let me put things clear i've took out a Daily because and Encounter power is at the same level if not better, not considering the fact that HoF is single Target while DL is an Area Effect.
So, i slowly build my AP to cast my only serious damaging daily and i get something that's at the same level of an encounter? What's the meaning of sacrificing the (now) hard earned AP for this kind of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>?
It's a Daily and the last one the DC gets, it cost us serious resources to cast (AP) and we get a crappy power for our ONLY consinstent damage power and you still have the courage to say us that we have only to heal?
Then why there are the kind of specs accessible to the Classes?
If i don't want to play my DC as a moving hospital i should have the right to do so, i'm not saying that i will have to do damage comparable to a DD or Tank class but i believe i should be able to play the class the way i like without being Overpowered or else is totally useless to have 3 kinds of specs.
So if i build a Character who mainly pumps up the Crit stat and i use my Daily to damage an opponent i expect to do some serious damage (serious doesn't mean insta-kill), not something that's equal to an encounter, it's just common sense that for an higher price (both in AP and character development) we could get something useful.
And quit telling us that a DC gotta only do "Healing" or else is useless to have 3 specs.
And if i'm good enough to build a different DC to play that fits my style it's just plain idiocy that i have to be penalized.
They didn't with TR i don't see why we must allow them to do this with the DC.
QFT. Thank you for adding more proof that hybrid damage/heal/support DC builds are -- and should be -- viable and are not uncommon in the game.
reshaimMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 21Arc User
edited August 2013
So why do we have 3 different specs for every class?
if a class must only do what its description says what's the point of having 3 different choices?
With this i don't mean to say that every class must be able to do what other classes do on par with them, only that if a player decides to weaken the main ability of his class to focus on something else comprised in the other paths, should be able to do so efficiently.
And i've seen Damage Dealing GF.
By your logic, TR would have to get nerfed, badly. They are more "tanky" than the actual tanks of the game now. CC immunity, stealth, dodge, exploit dodge while jumping etc.... they are supposed to deal damage, not TANK.
That was a sarcasm, dude, and not "my logic". There are a lot of players who believe that DCs must only heal their sorry bottoms in the dungeons, I think there even was a post or two in this thread about "derp healers".
And even if TR can stand a nerf or two, it'll be much, much better, if other classes would be simply buffed a bit. In the others MMOs I played rogues could tank, but at the same time healers weren't as weak as DCs are.
The problem is that the current nerfs and (hopefully) bugs for our damage-dealing spells are a step in the wrong direction, and the class that the DC is becoming is not the class that I made an account to play.
Agreed. I have been playing Neverwinter since open beta, but only now started spending time on the forum because the recent changes were the exact opposite of what I had expected. I had thought that clerics would get buffed slightly, but instead the devs nerfed HoF so much it's not worth speccing into.
Hammer of Fate might be just one skill, but in a way, I worry that if we don't say anything now, the devs will think that nerf was reasonable and will start changing our encounters to match it... Also, if they felt that Hammer of Fate was too powerful for our class, I'd rather they replaced it with some other kind of daily, perhaps something more support-oriented, because the current HoF is not worth it (deals a whopping ~10k damage in three dodgeable hits and roots you to the ground for two-three seconds just so your allies receive no healing and enemies can pummel on you).
Nice touch about only chaperone getting the lewtz, after all, you don't expect your cleric pet to get a share.
Yup, it could be worked in as a new class feature called 'virtuousness': a cleric's loot roll score is reduced by -40%, for we should not covet.
(Joking aside, I don't really mind Righteousness that much, regardless how it is worded . I don't notice it in PvE that often and even if the devs got rid of it in PvP, it wouldn't really help that much because we've so little cc immunity. Then it would just take three Entangles and other encounter spam instead of two Entangles and more encounter spam. And this isn't meant as a complaint against CWs and their skills, because the same happens to us with every other class and it isn't any other class' fault that clerics are so gimped. Our class would just need some boosts here and there instead of other classes needing to be nerfed at all.)
I wouldn't support swapping it with a support daily just because I like the idea of hitting a certain high level and being powerful enough to deal some damage -- otherwise you have to backtrack pretty far to find a damage-dealing daily in the power sheet IIRC (not logged in right now to check), and besides if you've survived to level 50 as a DC it's sure nice to get some revenge on the big bads for ruining your life all along the way.
I notice Righteousness in PvE just because I can't heal myself fast enough to stay alive in a mob; it can only supplement the potions I have to plow through. This thread is making me feel like instead of nerfing classes, they should just buff them all in different ways to bring them all in line with each other and toughen up the enemies so we don't roflstomp everything. That would still be balancing without making us beat our heads against our keyboards.
(Joking aside, I don't really mind Righteousness that much, regardless how it is worded . I don't notice it in PvE that often and even if the devs got rid of it in PvP, it wouldn't really help that much because we've so little cc immunity. Then it would just take three Entangles and other encounter spam instead of two Entangles and more encounter spam. And this isn't meant as a complaint against CWs and their skills, because the same happens to us with every other class and it isn't any other class' fault that clerics are so gimped. Our class would just need some boosts here and there instead of other classes needing to be nerfed at all.)
No other class has a debuff (and this was introduced because of pots! what a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> came up with this!) as a class feature. The idea of it is insulting. It should be removed, just as the other "fixes" which were introduced later - and real fixes should be added, such as meaningless feats being tuned to actually do something helpful.
No other class has a debuff (and this was introduced because of pots! what a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> came up with this!) as a class feature. The idea of it is insulting. It should be removed, just as the other "fixes" which were introduced later - and real fixes should be added, such as meaningless feats being tuned to actually do something helpful.
What gets me about it is that it was put in ostensibly because DCs were using so many fewer potions than all other classes and it wasn't fair. Now my DC is the only one of my characters who has to use potions in stacks of 20 at a time -- my CW has a cleric companion and over a hundred potions that she's picked up and never used, while my TR is rapidly heading that direction as well.
No other class has a debuff (and this was introduced because of pots! what a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> came up with this!) as a class feature. The idea of it is insulting. It should be removed, just as the other "fixes" which were introduced later - and real fixes should be added, such as meaningless feats being tuned to actually do something helpful.
I agree. So they gave clerics a self heal debuff because they used less potions then anyone else, so that they can now blow through far more potions then anyone else!
What's wrong with the fact of not burning potions as much as other classes ?
We are healers, of course we don't need potions; we heal ourselves... WTF is wrong with that ?
Why don't we nerf rogues damage by -40% with a passive so they don't deal 3 times more damage than any other class ?
The reasoning behind the idea of Righteousness was b-u-ll-s-hi-t.
What's wrong with the fact of not burning potions as much as other classes ?
We are healers, of course we don't need potions; we heal ourselves... WTF is wrong with that ?
Why don't we nerf rogues damage by -40% with a passive so they don't deal 3 times more damage than any other class ?
The reasoning behind the idea of Righteousness was b-u-ll-s-hi-t.
Correct. Rogues should deal -40% damage, wizards should have cooldowns 40% longer (at-wills included), great weapon fighters - deal 40% less damage with AOEs, and GFs gain -40% debuff to their defences if clerics are to keep Righteousness. Punishing us for a class-defining ability is stupid and reeks of "buy health stones with zen".
What's wrong with the fact of not burning potions as much as other classes ?
We are healers, of course we don't need potions; we heal ourselves... WTF is wrong with that ?
Why don't we nerf rogues damage by -40% with a passive so they don't deal 3 times more damage than any other class ?
The reasoning behind the idea of Righteousness was b-u-ll-s-hi-t.
I agree, This debuff passive should have never made it into the game, nor should the's nerfs of flamestrike or hammer of fate.
What's wrong with the fact of not burning potions as much as other classes ?
We are healers, of course we don't need potions; we heal ourselves... WTF is wrong with that ?
Why don't we nerf rogues damage by -40% with a passive so they don't deal 3 times more damage than any other class ?
The reasoning behind the idea of Righteousness was b-u-ll-s-hi-t.
I NEVER had the problem to die too fast on my cleric, im just almost immortal in pve and dont even need potions.
Taking the debuff away would make me flat out immortal in pvp too which is a very bad idea, also i would just go full dps/heal and dont care about defense anymore.
Maybe, but only maybe you should start adjusting your build on your cleric, crying on a 12,6k gearscore cleric about debuff is a shame, honestly.
I NEVER had the problem to die too fast on my cleric, im just almost immortal in pve and dont even need potions.
Taking the debuff away would make me flat out immortal in pvp too which is a very bad idea, also i would just go full dps/heal and dont care about defense anymore.
Maybe, but only maybe you should start adjusting your build on your cleric, crying on a 12,6k gearscore cleric about debuff is a shame, honestly.
Oh ao you are saying clerics need about 12k GS to be fully viable and contract the debuff? Ok then the debuff is breaking gameplay because not everyone has 12k+ GS clerics. Go throw on mismatched (no set pieces) T1 gear or blue gear with class stats or full level 60's greens, with no enchantments in them and then tell me clerics are fine. Better yet, level up a clerics and only use green gear (the only stuff you can guarantee you will get) and then tell me the debuff doesn't hurt. Oh and don't use any companions not even the freebie. And while you are at it keep track of how many potions you blow through, then do that same thing on say a CW and tell mer there is not something wrong here.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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shelendilMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited August 2013
Clerics were not overpowered on any front in the game: solo, group, or pvp, and now they are even weaker.
A nerf to a daily (that could be avoided by dodging since it takes time to deal all three hits) to the point where it does less damage than an encounter is bizarre.
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claransaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited August 2013
Adding my name to this thread as another account not happy with changes to Hammer of Fate. I just wish people would quit posting about daunting light (an encounter ability) doing more damage than a daily, or they'll nerf that next.
Oh ao you are saying clerics need about 12k GS to be fully viable and contract the debuff? Ok then the debuff is breaking gameplay because not everyone has 12k+ GS clerics. Go throw on mismatched (no set pieces) T1 gear or blue gear with class stats or full level 60's greens, with no enchantments in them and then tell me clerics are fine. Better yet, level up a clerics and only use green gear (the only stuff you can guarantee you will get) and then tell me the debuff doesn't hurt. Oh and don't use any companions not even the freebie. And while you are at it keep track of how many potions you blow through, then do that same thing on say a CW and tell mer there is not something wrong here.
Thats why epic dungeons have gear requirements if you didnt know, you CANT go there with full greens no enchantments duh..
And yes i lvld my cleric with all green then went slowly to blue and epic as i got 60 and did some easier dungeons, never saw any issue.
Never did I say you need 12k, 10k is about fine for the whole content if you know what you are doing but gear helps ofcourse no news...
Just though it was funny an incredibly geared clerics cries about not beeing able to keep himself up in health and just blow through potions.
BTW: People not using at least rank 4/5 enchants on lvl 60 or not even blues where they drop like crazy now deserve to feel the pain! Seriously.
Thats why epic dungeons have gear requirements if you didnt know, you CANT go there with full greens no enchantments duh..
And yes i lvld my cleric with all green then went slowly to blue and epic as i got 60 and did some easier dungeons, never saw any issue.
Never did I say you need 12k, 10k is about fine for the whole content if you know what you are doing but gear helps ofcourse no news...
Just though it was funny an incredibly geared clerics cries about not beeing able to keep himself up in health and just blow through potions.
BTW: People not using at least rank 4/5 enchants on lvl 60 or not even blues where they drop like crazy now deserve to feel the pain! Seriously.
You completely missed my point, if it takes gear to out do a malus (the self heal debuff) then something is very wrong. Getting a high GS like that to finally feel like you can heal yourself well enough with your own spells is a bad thing.
Other classes increase GS to me stronger, DC do it just in attempt to stay alive. something wrong here.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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yogokouMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited August 2013
I'm level 44 on my DC and I've used 3 pots so far (lagged in some skirmishes). I don't think I'll ever use a potion pre-60 honestly, even if fights take so long because of low damage output, I can keep myself up indefinitely. I'm healer specced btw. Righteousness was put in place because of the Cleric's massive healing abilities, if you ignore them in your build, you will suffer. I do feel it should be removed/changed with something else, exactly because of limiting your power choices somewhat when leveling up. But the cleric is by far the least potion-consuming class I've played (I have all 5, although two are lower level than my cleric. I have two 60 TRs btw since everyone is interested in them). I can only imagine your arguments about pots will hold true if you have few/no healing powers in your bar (and no cleric companion like everyone else, which honestly you should take if you don't want to be a healer yourself, like all do).
I can only repeat myself here, but i think its important to understand.
When you go with sunburst astral shield and healing word which is pretty common now id say you get healed for every encounter of those three every time you cast them, thats how they work.
Now to out do this "malus" you dont really need gear, you need intelligence that is to play around with the gear you have available and to move the right stats in the direction you want.
Easiest is to get a bit more defense than a control wizard for example, with 2k defense which you can get with blue gear and rank 5s it gets very easy and you get pretty tanky.
Also a good group takes all the damage, the dc only when he makes mistakes or goes ahead the group very often, in general.
I can only repeat myself here, but i think its important to understand.
When you go with sunburst astral shield and healing word which is pretty common now id say you get healed for every encounter of those three every time you cast them, thats how they work.
Now to out do this "malus" you dont really need gear, you need intelligence that is to play around with the gear you have available and to move the right stats in the direction you want.
Easiest is to get a bit more defense than a control wizard for example, with 2k defense which you can get with blue gear and rank 5s it gets very easy and you get pretty tanky.
Also a good group takes all the damage, the dc only when he makes mistakes or goes ahead the group very often, in general.
ok so deep faithful healing spec DC can work but there are 3 trees, 3 paths not one and you are only saying one path is enough. So faithful can survive by playing healbot but others? The mauls is felt. Not everyone wants to be a healbot and let other's play the game for them thanks.
I really dont think which tree you choose is that important, you can do fine with any.
Edit: Yeah i actually tried every one, even pvp tree/feats.
However, the clerics role is to heal, the only reason to switch encounters to dps ones is when you run with 2 clerics, thats just how it is, they are too important to switch out, you need astral shield and 1 heal at least from my experience.
But yeah complaining about that is like a gf saying he doesnt want mob aggro, or cw that does no aoe and only wants to single dps/ice knife bosses, or tr that doesnt want to go into melee and just throws knives all the time....i think you get my point.
I really dont think which tree you choose is that important, you can do fine with any.
Edit: Yeah i actually tried every one, even pvp tree/feats.
However, the clerics role is to heal, the only reason to switch encounters to dps ones is when you run with 2 clerics, thats just how it is, they are too important to switch out, you need astral shield and 1 heal at least from my experience.
But yeah complaining about that is like a gf saying he doesnt want mob aggro, or cw that does no aoe and only wants to single dps/ice knife bosses, or tr that doesnt want to go into melee and just throws knives all the time....i think you get my point.
No clerics role is not healer, their role is that of leader. The leader role includes buffing, healing damage mitigation, inspiring, etc but even with the role they fulfil they still need to be able to do damage.
Also you point about other classes. I hear TR is getting a ranged paragon tree soon...
GF get agro no matter what but they can tank and dps at the same time. CW can control mobs and dps at the same time. TR are strikers they dps from ranged or melee and avoid getting hit (or are supposed to). GWF can with the right gear tank and dps at the same time, or if not then AoE dps and control. DC can heal or dps but not both effectively at the same time. They are the only class for which this is true. Also they have 2 roles in neverwinter, leader and controller.
Every other class can fulfil their role and deal alot of damage at the same time except the DC. This is why the DC is so weak and is in desperate need of a buff. They are not healers there is no such role in D&D 4th edition as "healer" The role is called leader and entails soooo much more. So stop calling clerics healers and saying they don't need to do damage because that's completely not true.
DC need a buff so they like every other class[i/] can dps and fulfil their role of leader at the same time.
D&D 4th edition has 4 roles not 3 and they are as follow:
Controller - Controllers focus on affecting multiple targets at once, either damaging or debuffing them, or altering the battlefield's terrain
Defender - Defenders focus on blocking attacking enemies and focusing their attacks on themselves.
Striker - Strikers are focused on mobility, dealing heavy damage to single targets and avoiding attacks.
Leader - Leaders are focused on buffing and healing allies.
This is not the traditional holy trinity of healer, damage dealer, and tank!
With a Divine Prophecy of Doom and the Action Points from the revised Hammer of Fate a HoF kill can fill the Action Bar to 50%.
Sure the finishing off power is a little lower than it was before but when chaining kills you virtually get a freebie every time you switch to a fresh target after a kill.
Get enough damage onto the target with the other two encounters, at-wills or punishing light and in theory the DC could turn into a literal killing machine.
I'd go Vorpal, high crit|power build with feated lance of faith and not much of anything else. Brand of the Sun, a few shots with lance of Faith, Prophecy of Doom and then a really nasty punishing light to finish with a Hammer of Fate. I'd probably run with Break the Spirit too so if need be the target can be stunned long enough to make sure HoF sticks.
I have tried it out solo and while I found the damage to be considerable(for a Cleric) it was tedious. Heals were severely lacking though which is a problem(feated PoD is worthless since the debuff needs to expire naturaly to grant the heal, killing the mob before it expires only grants the action points).
When I say considerable what I really mean is with Divine Glow and Daunting Light the aformentioned build is the absolute highest dps build I have been able to find and I'm pretty sure I've tried them all.
Leader - Leaders are focused on buffing and healing allies.
Maybe i just dont understand but thats what I do, heal and buff. Buffs like Foresight, Astral Shield (helps position the group too = leader role?), Linked Spirit, Cleanse..
I mean you can just go high prophet high armor pen set and go full dps but you have to get a second "real" leader then. xD
Leader - Leaders are focused on buffing and healing allies.
Maybe i just dont understand but thats what I do, heal and buff. Buffs like Foresight, Astral Shield (helps position the group too = leader role?), Linked Spirit, Cleanse..
I mean you can just go high prophet high armor pen set and go full dps but you have to get a second "real" leader then. xD
Every other class can fulfil their role and dps, why not clerics too? It says they focus on those areas not they can only perform in those areas. Also dps/controller spec DC if they spec right can heal and dps at the same time as long as they are protected, it's just no one ever thinks about the cleric(s). Repurpose should for this spec is key, you can use it to turn your crits into AoE heals and use punishing light as a really nice AoE heal. It does work, but unlike the faithful tree it's close to idiot proof so people bash it.
Also a lot of the feats, set bonuses, class features etc that make this really beastly got fixed this last patch and now my dps/controller spec cleric can at least triple debuff enemies (up to 5 different debuffs: divine glow, feated daunting light debuff, feated brand of the sun debuff, high prophet set bonus debuff, and terrifying insight). So it actually works better now then it used to (and dailies are usually either dps skills or buffs). I haven't really tested it in dungeons yet as I was working on unlocking malabog. Oh and I still use sunburst, it's great for procing cycle of change (more bonus damage for cit heals) and then healer's lore gives me 10% bonus damage.
Even on my dps/controller spec cleric I have a point in cleanse. So yes it still qualifies as a leader role, even if you are not doing just buffing and healing. I mean another D&D class that holds the leader role is the warlord, and surely you wouldn't expect a warlord to not be able to do alot of damage? Leader role supports the party, but that does not exclude it from being capable of doing alot of damage. Also when stuff dies faster people need less healing
Makes sense, I just dont see it happening actually playing the game except when you take a second cleric, Malabogs Castle is really not that easy.
If you dont have AS + heal (pref. Healing word) with def. proccs like Foresight and so on you wont make it.
Im interested in your build though, mind sharing it? Like small guide/short overview? Others might be interested too.
I know what you are saying, it has worked as being the only cleric but you need a strong team. It is somewhat weak atm because they keep nerfing the class even though it's already the weakest. That was the whole point of this thread. To try and get them to undo the nerf to Hammer of Fate and the stealth nerf to not crit chance on flamestrike.
As for my damage dealing cleric spec. I don't have any points in astral shield or foresight, harder dungeons I run with my guild so this could be somewhat skewed. I didn't post my spec before but I can. I'll want to take some time to write it up though and post it in the cleric class forums (this thread is not the place for it). The main issue is the self heal debuff and the nerfing on our 1 big damage dealing dailies. Hammer of fate got a nasty damage reduction to be worth less then an encounter power and flamestrike got stealth nerfed to have no crit chance. This spec does actually heal alot but it's mainly passively through critical hits. I'll have to wait until I get a chance to test it in a dungeon post patch before posting the build though.
Nerfing what doesnt need to be nerfed and thereby weakening the whole class doesnt make players happy and defeats the whole purpose of a MMO with progression.
Combined with all the BoP changes to keep AD income as low as possible they probably want to make more money, cant come up with any other plausible explanation. This is not the right way.
HoF change surprised me big time, never heard anybody complain since its 3 hit and easily dodged/blocked. And it for sure wasnt exactly op in pve.
Comments
QFT. Thank you for adding more proof that hybrid damage/heal/support DC builds are -- and should be -- viable and are not uncommon in the game.
Kaylee Krankenwagen, level 60 GF | Tavandruil Wayfinder, level 49 GWF | Aldith Langley, level 51 HR
if a class must only do what its description says what's the point of having 3 different choices?
With this i don't mean to say that every class must be able to do what other classes do on par with them, only that if a player decides to weaken the main ability of his class to focus on something else comprised in the other paths, should be able to do so efficiently.
And i've seen Damage Dealing GF.
That was a sarcasm, dude, and not "my logic". There are a lot of players who believe that DCs must only heal their sorry bottoms in the dungeons, I think there even was a post or two in this thread about "derp healers".
And even if TR can stand a nerf or two, it'll be much, much better, if other classes would be simply buffed a bit. In the others MMOs I played rogues could tank, but at the same time healers weren't as weak as DCs are.
Agreed.
Hammer of Fate might be just one skill, but in a way, I worry that if we don't say anything now, the devs will think that nerf was reasonable and will start changing our encounters to match it... Also, if they felt that Hammer of Fate was too powerful for our class, I'd rather they replaced it with some other kind of daily, perhaps something more support-oriented, because the current HoF is not worth it (deals a whopping ~10k damage in three dodgeable hits and roots you to the ground for two-three seconds just so your allies receive no healing and enemies can pummel on you).
Yup, it could be worked in as a new class feature called 'virtuousness': a cleric's loot roll score is reduced by -40%, for we should not covet.
(Joking aside, I don't really mind Righteousness that much, regardless how it is worded . I don't notice it in PvE that often and even if the devs got rid of it in PvP, it wouldn't really help that much because we've so little cc immunity. Then it would just take three Entangles and other encounter spam instead of two Entangles and more encounter spam. And this isn't meant as a complaint against CWs and their skills, because the same happens to us with every other class and it isn't any other class' fault that clerics are so gimped. Our class would just need some boosts here and there instead of other classes needing to be nerfed at all.)
I notice Righteousness in PvE just because I can't heal myself fast enough to stay alive in a mob; it can only supplement the potions I have to plow through. This thread is making me feel like instead of nerfing classes, they should just buff them all in different ways to bring them all in line with each other and toughen up the enemies so we don't roflstomp everything. That would still be balancing without making us beat our heads against our keyboards.
Kaylee Krankenwagen, level 60 GF | Tavandruil Wayfinder, level 49 GWF | Aldith Langley, level 51 HR
And a bag space 40% smaller, even for bags bought with zen. Oh ****, I think we should stop giving them ideas.
No other class has a debuff (and this was introduced because of pots! what a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> came up with this!) as a class feature. The idea of it is insulting. It should be removed, just as the other "fixes" which were introduced later - and real fixes should be added, such as meaningless feats being tuned to actually do something helpful.
What gets me about it is that it was put in ostensibly because DCs were using so many fewer potions than all other classes and it wasn't fair. Now my DC is the only one of my characters who has to use potions in stacks of 20 at a time -- my CW has a cleric companion and over a hundred potions that she's picked up and never used, while my TR is rapidly heading that direction as well.
Kaylee Krankenwagen, level 60 GF | Tavandruil Wayfinder, level 49 GWF | Aldith Langley, level 51 HR
I agree. So they gave clerics a self heal debuff because they used less potions then anyone else, so that they can now blow through far more potions then anyone else!
We are healers, of course we don't need potions; we heal ourselves... WTF is wrong with that ?
Why don't we nerf rogues damage by -40% with a passive so they don't deal 3 times more damage than any other class ?
The reasoning behind the idea of Righteousness was b-u-ll-s-hi-t.
- DRAGON - ( Mehrea DC 13.1k ) - ( Volsung TR 11.7k )
Correct. Rogues should deal -40% damage, wizards should have cooldowns 40% longer (at-wills included), great weapon fighters - deal 40% less damage with AOEs, and GFs gain -40% debuff to their defences if clerics are to keep Righteousness. Punishing us for a class-defining ability is stupid and reeks of "buy health stones with zen".
I agree, This debuff passive should have never made it into the game, nor should the's nerfs of flamestrike or hammer of fate.
I NEVER had the problem to die too fast on my cleric, im just almost immortal in pve and dont even need potions.
Taking the debuff away would make me flat out immortal in pvp too which is a very bad idea, also i would just go full dps/heal and dont care about defense anymore.
Maybe, but only maybe you should start adjusting your build on your cleric, crying on a 12,6k gearscore cleric about debuff is a shame, honestly.
Oh ao you are saying clerics need about 12k GS to be fully viable and contract the debuff? Ok then the debuff is breaking gameplay because not everyone has 12k+ GS clerics. Go throw on mismatched (no set pieces) T1 gear or blue gear with class stats or full level 60's greens, with no enchantments in them and then tell me clerics are fine. Better yet, level up a clerics and only use green gear (the only stuff you can guarantee you will get) and then tell me the debuff doesn't hurt. Oh and don't use any companions not even the freebie. And while you are at it keep track of how many potions you blow through, then do that same thing on say a CW and tell mer there is not something wrong here.
A nerf to a daily (that could be avoided by dodging since it takes time to deal all three hits) to the point where it does less damage than an encounter is bizarre.
Why do you hate DCs Cryptic?
Thats why epic dungeons have gear requirements if you didnt know, you CANT go there with full greens no enchantments duh..
And yes i lvld my cleric with all green then went slowly to blue and epic as i got 60 and did some easier dungeons, never saw any issue.
Never did I say you need 12k, 10k is about fine for the whole content if you know what you are doing but gear helps ofcourse no news...
Just though it was funny an incredibly geared clerics cries about not beeing able to keep himself up in health and just blow through potions.
BTW: People not using at least rank 4/5 enchants on lvl 60 or not even blues where they drop like crazy now deserve to feel the pain! Seriously.
You completely missed my point, if it takes gear to out do a malus (the self heal debuff) then something is very wrong. Getting a high GS like that to finally feel like you can heal yourself well enough with your own spells is a bad thing.
Other classes increase GS to me stronger, DC do it just in attempt to stay alive. something wrong here.
When you go with sunburst astral shield and healing word which is pretty common now id say you get healed for every encounter of those three every time you cast them, thats how they work.
Now to out do this "malus" you dont really need gear, you need intelligence that is to play around with the gear you have available and to move the right stats in the direction you want.
Easiest is to get a bit more defense than a control wizard for example, with 2k defense which you can get with blue gear and rank 5s it gets very easy and you get pretty tanky.
Also a good group takes all the damage, the dc only when he makes mistakes or goes ahead the group very often, in general.
ok so deep faithful healing spec DC can work but there are 3 trees, 3 paths not one and you are only saying one path is enough. So faithful can survive by playing healbot but others? The mauls is felt. Not everyone wants to be a healbot and let other's play the game for them thanks.
Edit: Yeah i actually tried every one, even pvp tree/feats.
However, the clerics role is to heal, the only reason to switch encounters to dps ones is when you run with 2 clerics, thats just how it is, they are too important to switch out, you need astral shield and 1 heal at least from my experience.
But yeah complaining about that is like a gf saying he doesnt want mob aggro, or cw that does no aoe and only wants to single dps/ice knife bosses, or tr that doesnt want to go into melee and just throws knives all the time....i think you get my point.
No clerics role is not healer, their role is that of leader. The leader role includes buffing, healing damage mitigation, inspiring, etc but even with the role they fulfil they still need to be able to do damage.
Also you point about other classes. I hear TR is getting a ranged paragon tree soon...
GF get agro no matter what but they can tank and dps at the same time. CW can control mobs and dps at the same time. TR are strikers they dps from ranged or melee and avoid getting hit (or are supposed to). GWF can with the right gear tank and dps at the same time, or if not then AoE dps and control. DC can heal or dps but not both effectively at the same time. They are the only class for which this is true. Also they have 2 roles in neverwinter, leader and controller.
Every other class can fulfil their role and deal alot of damage at the same time except the DC. This is why the DC is so weak and is in desperate need of a buff. They are not healers there is no such role in D&D 4th edition as "healer" The role is called leader and entails soooo much more. So stop calling clerics healers and saying they don't need to do damage because that's completely not true.
DC need a buff so they like every other class[i/] can dps and fulfil their role of leader at the same time.
D&D 4th edition has 4 roles not 3 and they are as follow:
Controller - Controllers focus on affecting multiple targets at once, either damaging or debuffing them, or altering the battlefield's terrain
Defender - Defenders focus on blocking attacking enemies and focusing their attacks on themselves.
Striker - Strikers are focused on mobility, dealing heavy damage to single targets and avoiding attacks.
Leader - Leaders are focused on buffing and healing allies.
This is not the traditional holy trinity of healer, damage dealer, and tank!
Sure the finishing off power is a little lower than it was before but when chaining kills you virtually get a freebie every time you switch to a fresh target after a kill.
Get enough damage onto the target with the other two encounters, at-wills or punishing light and in theory the DC could turn into a literal killing machine.
I'd go Vorpal, high crit|power build with feated lance of faith and not much of anything else. Brand of the Sun, a few shots with lance of Faith, Prophecy of Doom and then a really nasty punishing light to finish with a Hammer of Fate. I'd probably run with Break the Spirit too so if need be the target can be stunned long enough to make sure HoF sticks.
I have tried it out solo and while I found the damage to be considerable(for a Cleric) it was tedious. Heals were severely lacking though which is a problem(feated PoD is worthless since the debuff needs to expire naturaly to grant the heal, killing the mob before it expires only grants the action points).
When I say considerable what I really mean is with Divine Glow and Daunting Light the aformentioned build is the absolute highest dps build I have been able to find and I'm pretty sure I've tried them all.
Leader - Leaders are focused on buffing and healing allies.
Maybe i just dont understand but thats what I do, heal and buff. Buffs like Foresight, Astral Shield (helps position the group too = leader role?), Linked Spirit, Cleanse..
I mean you can just go high prophet high armor pen set and go full dps but you have to get a second "real" leader then. xD
Every other class can fulfil their role and dps, why not clerics too? It says they focus on those areas not they can only perform in those areas. Also dps/controller spec DC if they spec right can heal and dps at the same time as long as they are protected, it's just no one ever thinks about the cleric(s). Repurpose should for this spec is key, you can use it to turn your crits into AoE heals and use punishing light as a really nice AoE heal. It does work, but unlike the faithful tree it's close to idiot proof so people bash it.
Also a lot of the feats, set bonuses, class features etc that make this really beastly got fixed this last patch and now my dps/controller spec cleric can at least triple debuff enemies (up to 5 different debuffs: divine glow, feated daunting light debuff, feated brand of the sun debuff, high prophet set bonus debuff, and terrifying insight). So it actually works better now then it used to (and dailies are usually either dps skills or buffs). I haven't really tested it in dungeons yet as I was working on unlocking malabog. Oh and I still use sunburst, it's great for procing cycle of change (more bonus damage for cit heals) and then healer's lore gives me 10% bonus damage.
Even on my dps/controller spec cleric I have a point in cleanse. So yes it still qualifies as a leader role, even if you are not doing just buffing and healing. I mean another D&D class that holds the leader role is the warlord, and surely you wouldn't expect a warlord to not be able to do alot of damage? Leader role supports the party, but that does not exclude it from being capable of doing alot of damage. Also when stuff dies faster people need less healing
If you dont have AS + heal (pref. Healing word) with def. proccs like Foresight and so on you wont make it.
Im interested in your build though, mind sharing it? Like small guide/short overview? Others might be interested too.
I know what you are saying, it has worked as being the only cleric but you need a strong team. It is somewhat weak atm because they keep nerfing the class even though it's already the weakest. That was the whole point of this thread. To try and get them to undo the nerf to Hammer of Fate and the stealth nerf to not crit chance on flamestrike.
As for my damage dealing cleric spec. I don't have any points in astral shield or foresight, harder dungeons I run with my guild so this could be somewhat skewed. I didn't post my spec before but I can. I'll want to take some time to write it up though and post it in the cleric class forums (this thread is not the place for it). The main issue is the self heal debuff and the nerfing on our 1 big damage dealing dailies. Hammer of fate got a nasty damage reduction to be worth less then an encounter power and flamestrike got stealth nerfed to have no crit chance. This spec does actually heal alot but it's mainly passively through critical hits. I'll have to wait until I get a chance to test it in a dungeon post patch before posting the build though.
Mine used to heal for 3500-3900 on crit, now it barely heals for 2200-2500.
Wtf is that game ? Bashing on clerics ? Persecution ?
The combat designer should be fired.
- DRAGON - ( Mehrea DC 13.1k ) - ( Volsung TR 11.7k )
Combined with all the BoP changes to keep AD income as low as possible they probably want to make more money, cant come up with any other plausible explanation. This is not the right way.
HoF change surprised me big time, never heard anybody complain since its 3 hit and easily dodged/blocked. And it for sure wasnt exactly op in pve.