Prestidigitation does increase GS and is a staple feat too. May I ask if you have found toughness to increase gearscore too?
I personally don't feel Prestidigitation is a staple feat at all. I never once considered putting points in it. Your average player has stats that range from 400-3000. So that feat is giving them anywhere between 12-90 extra per stat. Those stats that are getting 90+ points extra from this feat are already at the softcap. What's 90points extra on 3000crit? What's 120points extra for someone with 4000 anything? The only stat that doesn't have a softcap is Power, and we all know how underwhelming it is.
I personally don't feel Prestidigitation is a staple feat at all. I never once considered putting points in it. Your average player has stats that range from 400-3000. So that feat is giving them anywhere between 12-90 extra per stat. Those stats that are getting 90+ points extra from this feat are already at the softcap. What's 90points extra on 3000crit? What's 120points extra for someone with 4000 anything? The only stat that doesn't have a softcap is Power, and we all know how underwhelming it is.
Yeah, that's the quandary. If the player's stats are high enough to make Prestidigitation worthwhile (and ~90 points to each stat is worthwhile, in isolation -- equivalent to adding several rank 4ish enchantments), then those stats are most likely at or near their soft cap.
And then there's the fact that a lot of stats just have underwhelming effects to begin with, on most builds.
Personally, I think Prestidigitation is garbage, as it stands. It's a hard Feat to balance, though; tuning the percentage up by any significant amount might quickly make multi-CW groups seriously overpowered.
I personally don't feel Prestidigitation is a staple feat at all. I never once considered putting points in it. Your average player has stats that range from 400-3000. So that feat is giving them anywhere between 12-90 extra per stat. Those stats that are getting 90+ points extra from this feat are already at the softcap. What's 90points extra on 3000crit? What's 120points extra for someone with 4000 anything? The only stat that doesn't have a softcap is Power, and we all know how underwhelming it is.
So you are suggesting the final 2x heroic points be put into Learned Spellcaster?
Yeah, that's the quandary. If the player's stats are high enough to make Prestidigitation worthwhile (and ~90 points to each stat is worthwhile, in isolation -- equivalent to adding several rank 4ish enchantments), then those stats are most likely at or near their soft cap.
And then there's the fact that a lot of stats just have underwhelming effects to begin with, on most builds.
Personally, I think Prestidigitation is garbage, as it stands. It's a hard Feat to balance, though; tuning the percentage up by any significant amount might quickly make multi-CW groups seriously overpowered.
Some points to bear in mind though.
First, you can adjust your personal stats to take this into account to ensure you hit the 'soft cap you are aiming for with the added 3%.
Second, (except for armor) penetration there is not a hard cap, rather a gradual decrease in effectiveness per point. So the 3% per party member boost will still be pretty useful.
Finally, in PUGs very few people will hit the 'optimum' 'soft' cap anyway whereas if you are in a fixed farming group which is the only time in PvE that optimum stats might be important then your part members could also base their enchants taking into account the 3% boost.
Remember that this boosts not just you but all your party member too, so the loss of effectiveness from the (fairly gradual) decrease in effectiveness of stats near the optimal 'soft cap' is more than offset by the fact that you are boosting 5 people and not just yourself.
So you are suggesting the final 2x heroic points be put into Learned Spellcaster?
Weapon Mastery (3 points max), Toughness (3 points max), Fight On (5 points max), Arcane Mastery (3 points max), Blighting Power (3 points max), Learned Spellcaster (5 points max) -- all of those feats are objectively better than Prestidigitation unless you have some sort of pre-made multi-CW team arrangement, with everyone's gear put together around the feat.
If you buy all of the above feats, even as a Human, you're done with the Heroic tree.
Wizard's Wrath and Focused Wizardry -- hell, even Controlling Action and Lightning Teleport -- have a legitimate case too, depending on build/play style.
First, you can adjust your personal stats to take this into account to ensure you hit the 'soft cap you are aiming for with the added 3%.
Second, (except for armor) penetration there is not a hard cap, rather a gradual decrease in effectiveness per point. So the 3% per party member boost will still be pretty useful.
Finally, in PUGs very few people will hit the 'optimum' 'soft' cap anyway whereas if you are in a fixed farming group which is the only time in PvE that optimum stats might be important then your part members could also base their enchants taking into account the 3% boost.
All of that is true, but you're still only increasing the parties' stats by a negligible amount, and the stats themselves generally only provide a negligible benefit in the final analysis. If Prestidigitation were a 3% bonus to your final stat scores -- that is, if the feat improved, say, bottom-line Recharge and Damage Resistance and Crit chance and so on instead of the underlying gear stats that partially determine those scores -- then it would be really nice. As it is? Hard to see anything but a niche case for it.
Incidentally, that's why the feats mentioned above are attractive: they (generally) improve bottom line scores (or facets of your character) by some small, but not insignificant amount. Learned Spellcaster raises damage output by 5%. Blighting Power raises cold damage output by 9%. Toughness raises total hit points by 3%. And so on and so forth. Those are all genuinely noticeable boosts. Prestidigitation, by contrast, is a boost that you'd need a microscope and a spreadsheet even to detect, in the general case.
That's not to say that people who buy the feat are foolish; I'm just saying that it's a marginal feat choice, at best, with regard to the average CW. It ain't a staple, in other words. Or it shouldn't be.
So you are suggesting the final 2x heroic points be put into Learned Spellcaster?
Yes Learned Spellcaster actually gives a noticeable boost, unlike Prestidigitation. Most of the stats theocrafting has been done. Without even calculating anything, it is obvious that the increase in stats from Prestidigitation is negligible. 3% for a stat that is initially very low will yield virtually nothing. 3% for a stat that is already high (3k+) is just as useless because of the diminishing returns.
Hec it would be better if the feat only gave flat amount of points to stats below 1000. (i.e. 50/100/150 points to all stats below 1000)
Yes Learned Spellcaster actually gives a noticeable boost, unlike Prestidigitation. Most of the stats theocrafting has been done. Without even calculating anything, it is obvious that the increase in stats from Prestidigitation is negligible. 3% for a stat that is initially very low will yield virtually nothing. 3% for a stat that is already high (3k+) is just as useless because of the diminishing returns.
Hec it would be better if the feat only gave flat amount of points to stats below 1000. (i.e. 50/100/150 points to all stats below 1000)
So on my human CW, you are saying that the best place to put the 3 extra feats would be all into Learned Spellcaster? Or maybe one extra into toughness, and two into Learned?
So on my human CW, you are saying that the best place to put the 3 extra feats would be all into Learned Spellcaster? Or maybe one extra into toughness, and two into Learned?
I personally went with 5/5 Learned Spellcaster. My logic is 5% more damage on everything is somewhat better than more% damage on specific powers only. But really in the end it boils down to personal preference, just as long as you don't feat Prestidigitation :P
Thoughts on EF vs. shield in tab slot for AP generation?
Take EF in tab slot when you need max CC and every second on the singularity spam counts.
When you don't, put CoI in there- if your recovery is good, this will still be plenty of AP, but with more debuffing/damage. You don't really need to put shield pulse in mastery- just use it as are about to enter the singularity (wait until they're off the ground and the circle is growing, if you're punting them over low walls). You'll get a ton of AP from that. If the mobs aren't being punted, and are dropping out of the singularity, you can pop a steal time to hit them as they land- gaining more AP and applying more CC.
Take EF in tab slot when you need max CC and every second on the singularity spam counts.
When you don't, put CoI in there- if your recovery is good, this will still be plenty of AP, but with more debuffing/damage. You don't really need to put shield pulse in mastery- just use it as are about to enter the singularity (wait until they're off the ground and the circle is growing, if you're punting them over low walls). You'll get a ton of AP from that. If the mobs aren't being punted, and are dropping out of the singularity, you can pop a steal time to hit them as they land- gaining more AP and applying more CC.
That's pretty much what I'd been doing, though I hadn't been using EF all that much. Seems very situational, but thanks for the information.
That's pretty much what I'd been doing, though I hadn't been using EF all that much. Seems very situational, but thanks for the information.
You hit the nail right on the head, it is totally situational. Most of the time it's not really needed. If your recovery is a bit low and you find that you need some extra AP for singularity spam (or you're feeling lazy), then it's an option.
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deviltyphoon2Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 18Arc User
Er kevin may I know a short explanation of why HV. Really appreciate it
HV - not hard to maintain 3x stack of the 4pc buff and debuff. With most CWs having low defense the buff usually gives you good return on mitigation. The debuff on your target makes a noticeable difference, not to mention that it currently stacks with other CWs using HV too.
With the shadowweaver it is pretty rare that you will be running with a group where everyone is stacking high crit%. So the buff benefit diminishes the less people stacking crit. It is not a bad set by any means. I personally prefer the consistency of HV.
HV - not hard to maintain 3x stack of the 4pc buff and debuff. With most CWs having low defense the buff usually gives you good return on mitigation. The debuff on your target makes a noticeable difference, not to mention that it currently stacks with other CWs using HV too.
With the shadowweaver it is pretty rare that you will be running with a group where everyone is stacking high crit%. So the buff benefit diminishes the less people stacking crit. It is not a bad set by any means. I personally prefer the consistency of HV.
Copticone, I'd like to say thanks for this build, I've remade another CW just to test it (yeah I'm cheap that way ) and it hands down works better than the old Rene build, at least it suits my playstyle far better than my old one. Not only does your build (imho), promotes arguably the best way to make use of the crowd control capabilities of a CW, it also can stand it's ground in single target dps even when compared to a pure Rene build (I don't know if the frozen power transfer exploit still works though, in which case, this build outstrips arcane build by a huge margin in terms of single target dps).
I do however, have a few queries.
I find it that Learned Spellcaster gives you better damage bonus/output than Arcane Enchantment, even with only 3 points invested (I have LS at 5/5). Since unlike AE, LS affects both Arcane and Ice elements, which in return increases the amount of bonuses you gain when compared to taking Arcane Enchantment + Blighting Power.
Destructive Wizardry's bonus damage is downright better than Bitter Cold it seems, providing players know how to use it; I've deliberately trained Storm Pillar to 3 just for this and even when unfeated I've read that an all out spam of Storm Pillar (even without the damage bonus from FPT) deals better dps than MM with full stack of AM. pfft2 did some pretty awesome report from his experiments sometime ago, and I concur with his assessments. Combined with thau's damage bonuses and the mitigation debuff from CoI, well, as far as it feels for me it does better than even a pure Rene build with single target dps.
I find that with your build, Storm Spell and Eye of Storm procs far more often than with my old Renegade CW. I'm not quite sure whether all the DoTs were the ones causing this, but seeing how it is, I almost never slotted Chilling Presence and/or Evocation at all. On a side note, I also feels that Evocation's slightly better than Chilling Presence, because the bonus given were more constant and while it's true that there are almost always chill stacks available, 6 stacks doesn't occur all that often in terms of persistency.
I would love to hear your thoughts about this, and again, thanks for the build.
Evocation = +15% damage to shield pulse and steal time.
Chilling presence = +3~18% damage to all spells. Combination of IT and CoI provides a lot of chill stacks.
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jzlim5888Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 17Arc User
Copticone, I'd like to say thanks for this build, I've remade another CW just to test it (yeah I'm cheap that way ) and it hands down works better than the old Rene build, at least it suits my playstyle far better than my old one. Not only does your build (imho), promotes arguably the best way to make use of the crowd control capabilities of a CW, it also can stand it's ground in single target dps even when compared to a pure Rene build (I don't know if the frozen power transfer exploit still works though, in which case, this build outstrips arcane build by a huge margin in terms of single target dps).
I do however, have a few queries.
I find it that Learned Spellcaster gives you better damage bonus/output than Arcane Enchantment, even with only 3 points invested (I have LS at 5/5). Since unlike AE, LS affects both Arcane and Ice elements, which in return increases the amount of bonuses you gain when compared to taking Arcane Enchantment + Blighting Power.
Destructive Wizardry's bonus damage is downright better than Bitter Cold it seems, providing players know how to use it; I've deliberately trained Storm Pillar to 3 just for this and even when unfeated I've read that an all out spam of Storm Pillar (even without the damage bonus from FPT) deals better dps than MM with full stack of AM. pfft2 did some pretty awesome report from his experiments sometime ago, and I concur with his assessments. Combined with thau's damage bonuses and the mitigation debuff from CoI, well, as far as it feels for me it does better than even a pure Rene build with single target dps.
I find that with your build, Storm Spell and Eye of Storm procs far more often than with my old Renegade CW. I'm not quite sure whether all the DoTs were the ones causing this, but seeing how it is, I almost never slotted Chilling Presence and/or Evocation at all. On a side note, I also feels that Evocation's slightly better than Chilling Presence, because the bonus given were more constant and while it's true that there are almost always chill stacks available, 6 stacks doesn't occur all that often in terms of persistency.
I would love to hear your thoughts about this, and again, thanks for the build.
would wanna know about your first query and second one too
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jzlim5888Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 17Arc User
Evocation = +15% damage to shield pulse and steal time.
Chilling presence = +3~18% damage to all spells. Combination of IT and CoI provides a lot of chill stacks.
evocation affects tabbed chilling strike too I thought
Comments
I personally don't feel Prestidigitation is a staple feat at all. I never once considered putting points in it. Your average player has stats that range from 400-3000. So that feat is giving them anywhere between 12-90 extra per stat. Those stats that are getting 90+ points extra from this feat are already at the softcap. What's 90points extra on 3000crit? What's 120points extra for someone with 4000 anything? The only stat that doesn't have a softcap is Power, and we all know how underwhelming it is.
Yeah, that's the quandary. If the player's stats are high enough to make Prestidigitation worthwhile (and ~90 points to each stat is worthwhile, in isolation -- equivalent to adding several rank 4ish enchantments), then those stats are most likely at or near their soft cap.
And then there's the fact that a lot of stats just have underwhelming effects to begin with, on most builds.
Personally, I think Prestidigitation is garbage, as it stands. It's a hard Feat to balance, though; tuning the percentage up by any significant amount might quickly make multi-CW groups seriously overpowered.
So you are suggesting the final 2x heroic points be put into Learned Spellcaster?
Some points to bear in mind though.
First, you can adjust your personal stats to take this into account to ensure you hit the 'soft cap you are aiming for with the added 3%.
Second, (except for armor) penetration there is not a hard cap, rather a gradual decrease in effectiveness per point. So the 3% per party member boost will still be pretty useful.
Finally, in PUGs very few people will hit the 'optimum' 'soft' cap anyway whereas if you are in a fixed farming group which is the only time in PvE that optimum stats might be important then your part members could also base their enchants taking into account the 3% boost.
Remember that this boosts not just you but all your party member too, so the loss of effectiveness from the (fairly gradual) decrease in effectiveness of stats near the optimal 'soft cap' is more than offset by the fact that you are boosting 5 people and not just yourself.
Weapon Mastery (3 points max), Toughness (3 points max), Fight On (5 points max), Arcane Mastery (3 points max), Blighting Power (3 points max), Learned Spellcaster (5 points max) -- all of those feats are objectively better than Prestidigitation unless you have some sort of pre-made multi-CW team arrangement, with everyone's gear put together around the feat.
If you buy all of the above feats, even as a Human, you're done with the Heroic tree.
Wizard's Wrath and Focused Wizardry -- hell, even Controlling Action and Lightning Teleport -- have a legitimate case too, depending on build/play style.
All of that is true, but you're still only increasing the parties' stats by a negligible amount, and the stats themselves generally only provide a negligible benefit in the final analysis. If Prestidigitation were a 3% bonus to your final stat scores -- that is, if the feat improved, say, bottom-line Recharge and Damage Resistance and Crit chance and so on instead of the underlying gear stats that partially determine those scores -- then it would be really nice. As it is? Hard to see anything but a niche case for it.
Incidentally, that's why the feats mentioned above are attractive: they (generally) improve bottom line scores (or facets of your character) by some small, but not insignificant amount. Learned Spellcaster raises damage output by 5%. Blighting Power raises cold damage output by 9%. Toughness raises total hit points by 3%. And so on and so forth. Those are all genuinely noticeable boosts. Prestidigitation, by contrast, is a boost that you'd need a microscope and a spreadsheet even to detect, in the general case.
That's not to say that people who buy the feat are foolish; I'm just saying that it's a marginal feat choice, at best, with regard to the average CW. It ain't a staple, in other words. Or it shouldn't be.
Yes Learned Spellcaster actually gives a noticeable boost, unlike Prestidigitation. Most of the stats theocrafting has been done. Without even calculating anything, it is obvious that the increase in stats from Prestidigitation is negligible. 3% for a stat that is initially very low will yield virtually nothing. 3% for a stat that is already high (3k+) is just as useless because of the diminishing returns.
Hec it would be better if the feat only gave flat amount of points to stats below 1000. (i.e. 50/100/150 points to all stats below 1000)
So on my human CW, you are saying that the best place to put the 3 extra feats would be all into Learned Spellcaster? Or maybe one extra into toughness, and two into Learned?
I personally went with 5/5 Learned Spellcaster. My logic is 5% more damage on everything is somewhat better than more% damage on specific powers only. But really in the end it boils down to personal preference, just as long as you don't feat Prestidigitation :P
Take EF in tab slot when you need max CC and every second on the singularity spam counts.
When you don't, put CoI in there- if your recovery is good, this will still be plenty of AP, but with more debuffing/damage. You don't really need to put shield pulse in mastery- just use it as are about to enter the singularity (wait until they're off the ground and the circle is growing, if you're punting them over low walls). You'll get a ton of AP from that. If the mobs aren't being punted, and are dropping out of the singularity, you can pop a steal time to hit them as they land- gaining more AP and applying more CC.
That's pretty much what I'd been doing, though I hadn't been using EF all that much. Seems very situational, but thanks for the information.
It is situational. In fact outside of CN, I dont slot it.
You hit the nail right on the head, it is totally situational. Most of the time it's not really needed. If your recovery is a bit low and you find that you need some extra AP for singularity spam (or you're feeling lazy), then it's an option.
Rise to POWER with <House of Power>.
The Exterminator - (NW-DLNXF3BGG)
Be sure to get the actual set ones and not the 'of the Drake' version since the items bought with seals don't confer the set bonus.
HV - not hard to maintain 3x stack of the 4pc buff and debuff. With most CWs having low defense the buff usually gives you good return on mitigation. The debuff on your target makes a noticeable difference, not to mention that it currently stacks with other CWs using HV too.
With the shadowweaver it is pretty rare that you will be running with a group where everyone is stacking high crit%. So the buff benefit diminishes the less people stacking crit. It is not a bad set by any means. I personally prefer the consistency of HV.
thanks for the explanation.
I don't slot MM at all.
Copticone, I'd like to say thanks for this build, I've remade another CW just to test it (yeah I'm cheap that way
I do however, have a few queries.
I would love to hear your thoughts about this, and again, thanks for the build.
Chilling presence = +3~18% damage to all spells. Combination of IT and CoI provides a lot of chill stacks.
would wanna know about your first query and second one too
evocation affects tabbed chilling strike too I thought