Why did you try this build to begin with? Never once did I say in the OP that this is a Singularity spam spec, which is obviously what you are looking for. Here is the best answer. There is no build for Singularity spam. In fact you can park all your paragon feats and not spend any points and still just walk around with EF on tab and spam Singularities all day.
You say it better than I do, which isn't unusual.
Yes, that's a point worth emphasizing and re-emphasizing: the EF-on-tab thing has nothing to do with your build. It gives you fool-proof and ridiculously high AP gain in any multi-target situation.
The only time when I switch to tab entangling is on shield duty at Draco.
Try next time take 1-2 extra CW in a place of useless GWF/GF/TR and put repel on tab. Making mobs to be a spectators from the ledge is intended tactic. But sometimes they fly away... thats a bug, but no1 cares.
It seems like freedumb4eva is looking at this from the perspective of a cw and only a cw. Outside of punting, singularity by itself is highly overrated. Sure, it helps YOU from danger as you re a ranged classes, but does nothing to mitigate damage for the melee classes whatsoever (outside the brief apex). You're basically giving the team a brief window to do extra aoe damage. When the sing ends, the enemies scatter all over again and back to square one. Worst part still is that sing resets the enemy attack patterns, so when it ends, all characters in melee range all get hit simultaneously (especially the gf if present).
Instead on running endless singularity, how bout:
-Get a decent dps gwf and/or gf
-Cast Singularity
-cast CoI (mastery) onto one of the tougher mobs
-Repel (shield pulse)
-Cast Steal right before the sing ends
-Cast Icy Terrain point blank very shortly afterwards (locks enemies in place for a good second or two)
-Watch the group melt the now stacked/stun/slowed/frozen/debuffed mob (you can easily keep the mob in place for a good 5-8 seconds afterwards. more than enough time for a good group to dismantle them)
-Come to the realization you don't need a second singularity because all the enemies are dead (at the very least, the majority)
As far as entangling force goes, sure it's great for ap regen, but my god, what a useless cc ability in epic dungeons.
As far as singularity being the only viable cc ability at the cw's disposal, well, lets hope they don't nerf it for your sake (I fully expect sooner or later for balancing purposes).
Another glaring difference is that in times where you do not slot CoI at all for certain encounters, your keystone feat is entirely wasted. There will never be a time where I won't need Magic Missiles, well, maybe one day.
Well, i have unslotted MM when specced in frost mage. RoF do equal damage with MM, but it freezes target or applies chill, which is essential for frost mage (+18% damage) and has great synergy with storm spell. Second at-will is chilling cloud, which gives you 5~25% damage buff. And I don't know any encounter, when I must to take CoI from my bar, so last feat can never be wasted.
I've said my piece here... this build was not viable for me and that's that.
Than don't advise it for others. If you in your static group work as support, it's your business: fell free to socket full recovery and GPF for your weapon. But do not advise your gimped playstile to others.
I never assumed that it was. It just so turns out that spamming Arcane Singularity is by far superior to this type of a build. I've already listed the reasons of why that is so.
No you didn't actually. You just gave an opinion, which I along with many totally disagree with. And again, in case you missed it, you can spam Singularities with this build as much as ANY other build. In fact, there are a few pulls in CN where I have back to back Singularities, without even slotting EF. Two shield pulses on a nice group can fill 100% of your AP.
You could walk around with no feats, but there are feats that maximize AP gain, which I recommend over putting points towards feats which maximize, say, Chilling Cloud.
I am posting to express my regret for going for this build over the one that I am currently using, which I will post on these forums at some time tonight or tomorrow. It is a very fun idea for a build, but in practice, lacks due to the current game environment.
First of all, instead of just throwing claims in the air, please share with us ALL the "feats" (notice plural) you are referring to that generate this insane AP. Then please provide us with details on how much AP exactly does a CW gain using "them". Because as far as I could tell with my experience, WIS/Recovery/Using Powers are the biggest contributor to AP gain.
Second, there isnt a single feat that ONLY maximizes Chilling Could. There are feats that increases dps for cold attacks, then there is a Chilling Cloud feat which increases ALL your damage.
Just to add: Using your same logic, I can still use your suggested abilities with the build that I am using in situations that require it, just the same as with your proposed build, players can slot EF in Mastery for superior AP gain. The only major difference is that you spent points to maximize AoE damage, and I spent points to maximize AP gain. Another glaring difference is that in times where you do not slot CoI at all for certain encounters, your keystone feat is entirely wasted. There will never be a time where I won't need Magic Missiles, well, maybe one day.
You can't possible use the same logic of EF on tab that I used. In fact it is ridiculously far off. Here is the fact, that you will have to prove otherwise. If I use EF on Tab, using this spec, with my current WIS/Recovery, I will generate pretty much the same AP. If you however in a Renegade spec, slot the same Powers and use the same At-Will that I suggest, you will be doing anywhere between 15-40% less damage.
.... I posted my opinion in this thread because it might allow others to avoid having to pay for a respec, as I had to.
Much better and more mature advice would be to tell people to try out a new spec on the Preview Server before committing to it.
I never claimed that this spec should be the only one used in End-Game. You could have said its playstyle doesn't appeal to me, or I prefer the chaotic nature and unpredictability of the Renegade tree, or I prefer the survivability and utility of the Oppressor tree. But to say this spec isn't good because it doesnt generate AP or can't spam Singularity and want others to take your advice blindly is senseless.
Much better and more mature advice would be to tell people to try out a new spec on the Preview Server before committing to it.
This. So much this.
Disagreeing with a build/idea, debating better ideologies, everyone does that. Par for the course. Heck, I think people in general love doing this to explore the possibilities of the wizard class.
But feeling entitled to slam a build because you expended resources on it and that it didn't come up to your standards is just petty.
This said, I like Recovery/AP gain/Control Duration... so I'm rather eager to see what freedumb4eva has to show. While I value all the guides people have put up, I also prefer having more than one point of view to decide how I prefer playing my own wizard.
I am sad to see that you are above criticism... I gave my opinion and you felt attacked.
First of all, you need to understand the difference between criticism and off the wall claims. Since your original claim, and replying multiple times, you have yet to prove anything. All you're saying is 1+1=3 and failing to show us how it is possible. Exactly what part of the spec, what specific feat, what Power, what rotation did you criticize? A blanket statement with nothing to back it up is not criticism.
Second, thanks for bumping the thread. It's probably having the opposite effect of what you intended. Looking forward to reading your AP regen Renegade spec later tonight.
I don't even need to post it just to congratulate myself on finding a good spec. There are already threads with plenty of information for CW out there.
Just like this information I learned that those points you wasted in to the area of effect damage boosting feats doesn't even affect your mastery spell CoI. It affects Shield and Steal Time, though. It also affects Icy Terrain but that is our lowest damage spell and also doesn't crit.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions.
You're extremely predictable. I knew you would reply back again without anything useful.
It wasn't me challenging you to post your spec. You are the one who said you would post it tonight, so I was just saying that I was looking forward to it. I guess you figured it wasn't going to shed any new light on the Renegade tree.
Thank you for trying the spec and I am sorry it didn't work out for you.
I know, you said that on another thread last night. Go to the Barracks forum too please. You missed a few more threads in the barracks' forum that I was responding to as well. Thank you for your amazing insight and contribution.
[...]
I must also mention that Chilling Cloud is still rather awful. Even Ray of Frost is better. The points in Frozen Power Transfer do not make Chilling Cloud any more viable.
Tbh, I'm not sure if you really tried copticones build to it's full extend. I tried different builds and used different At-Wills (including Magic Missle), and I totally disagree with your conclusions--and that is not limited to the one about Chilling Cloud. But it was a lot of fun reading your postings...
Just forget it, don't argue with him. Anyone, who disagree, is toxic and evil, while he is white and fluffy. He is narrow-minded, focused on "control" rene spec and don't even know, that full feated Chilling Cloud do equal DPS with MM. With 5 stacks FPT - even more. And it is AoE at-will.
Just forget it, don't argue with him. Anyone, who disagree, is toxic and evil, while he is white and fluffy. He is narrow-minded, focused on "control" rene spec and don't even know, that full feated Chilling Cloud do equal DPS with MM. With 5 stacks FPT - even more. And it is AoE at-will.
Wow... I totally regret leaving my opinion here I didn't know it would result in this much flame. Your sarcastic comments are seriously disturbing... I'll delete my posts if possible. Good luck and good gaming all.
I can't really delete my posts so I will just edit them to remove my opinions.
Wow... I totally regret leaving my opinion here I didn't know it would result in this much flame. Your sarcastic comments are seriously disturbing... I'll delete my posts if possible. Good luck and good gaming all.
I can't really delete my posts so I will just edit them to remove my opinions.
So now you actually completely (not completely, your posts are quoted in other's peoples replies) nulified any contribution to the thread, because people have proven your statements are misleading. Thank you for bumping this thread, I'd really like to see more wizards speced and geared like OP suggests so dungeon runs are quicker and more enjoyable.
Wow... I totally regret leaving my opinion here I didn't know it would result in this much flame. Your sarcastic comments are seriously disturbing... I'll delete my posts if possible. Good luck and good gaming all.
I can't really delete my posts so I will just edit them to remove my opinions.
That's a shame.
I understand your frustration; opening yourself to debate on internet forums is always a bit of an iffy prospect -- but you must also understand that your approach to this thread was inflammatory from the start. Copticone put a lot of work into this guide, and he's very patiently fielded questions and comments on it for several weeks now. He has never, to my knowledge, claimed that his Thaumaturge build is the best possible spec for all people and all play styles.
The build is clearly not for you, and that's fine. If you had posted here to say simply that you tried the build and it didn't suit you, along with the reasons why, then everyone could have had a fine debate (much as we did, but with a lot less acrimony) about the merits of your approach versus the Thaumaturge approach.
But instead, you led with your chin -- framing your experience with copticone's build as a cautionary tale, implicitly urging everyone reading not just to avoid the build, but to avoid it at all costs. That was disrespectful, the internet equivalent of a dinner guest throwing a temper tantrum because his host served the wrong flavor of ice cream.
Everything went downhill from there. I know it's difficult, but please do consider your approach next time. Whatever you may believe, this forum (specifically the CW forum) is actually pretty welcoming if you just stay calm and try to be polite. Don't sweat the small stuff; stay on message, and try to keep an open mind.
I use a similar build to this, but with a few tweaks for PvP, but not all worth mentioning. And i have several questions regarding reasoning behind it.
First and the most disturbing one: why bitter cold over nightmare wizardry? okay, bitter cold gives you flat 5% increase, i get it, but combat advantage gives you 20-24% if im not mistaken. Flat CA=10%+bonus from CHA(14% for me)=24%, not allways, but assuming it is up even 1\3 of the time it is still 24\3=8%, and i have a feeling it is more than 1\3.
Second one: Chilling presence vs eye of the storm. Ok, CP gives you up to 18% more damage, BUT EOTS gives huge burst damage, and it is even more important if you have vorpal enchant and\or shadow weaver. I have a feeling that 100% crit when pumping AS and shields with 0 CD is better than plain 18% damage increase. Not to mention that you can time you spells(eg. Iceknife) to land a 100% crit
Third one: wth is Elemental Empoverment? am i missing something or it is really bad as i see it? Tried on test server and i just dont get it. It does almost nothing. I opted for 20% damage on Icy rays instead
And i got Snap freaze instead of tempest magic(becouse im a thiefling and it doesnt stack), that i see better for PvP, especially for ROE+COI(not tabbed)+EF+IK, it hits really hard when crits with greater vorpal, or for the Ice Storm when EOTS is up and there are several enemies around you.
Maybe i'm just thinking too much about PvP and burst damage, tho i did not plan to do a PvP build, and maybe stable damage is better in PvE, but i like it this way.
As for the powers that i use:
PvE MM+CC as at-wills(MM for solo-target), COI on tab, icy terrain, steal time, shield. i tried many mixups including sudden storm, avalance shard, CS on tab, etc, but this is the best encounter setup for the dungeons for me, and will be even better when update that gives icy terrain ability to crit goes live. For single-target damage(like in FH/SP if im the DPS/CN when all ads are gone, etc) im getting Icy rays on tab, COI, ROE, CS\shield
As for PvP i dont see how chilling cloud belongs there, so i use MM\ROF and encounter-wise 1)IR(tab) 2)COI 3)ROE\CS 4)EF\CS depending on the enemy group.
Nightmare wizardry has a chance of proc (20%) of proc (crit rating). So it gives you 24 (not sure if not simply 10*1.4, need to test) increased damage. 20% chance of proc * 50% crit chance (rough) = 10% chane of proc 24% increased damage for 4 seconds. For burs maybe, for overall DPS it's bad. Same for IotS - it's random, often procs at the end of the fight and has long CD.
Snap freeze works good for arcane wizards (sheld, repel, RoE, CoI). Any stack of chill, even from your timmate, and this feat doesn't work.
As for me, I prefer stabile damage, even in PvP. RoF simply disintegrates targets in PvP.
Nightmare wizardry has a chance of proc (20%) of proc (crit rating). So it gives you 24 (not sure if not simply 10*1.4, need to test) increased damage. 20% chance of proc * 50% crit chance (rough) = 10% chane of proc 24% increased damage for 4 seconds. For burs maybe, for overall DPS it's bad. Same for IotS - it's random, often procs at the end of the fight and has long CD.
Snap freeze works good for arcane wizards (sheld, repel, RoE, CoI). Any stack of chill, even from your timmate, and this feat doesn't work.
As for me, I prefer stabile damage, even in PvP. RoF simply disintegrates targets in PvP.
Yes, Nightmare Wizardry has a 20% chance to proc per crit, so assuming a 40% crit rate (which is generous) we're talking about a 0.2 * 0.4 = 0.08, or 8% chance to proc Nightmare Wizardry, overall.
But the buff lasts for 4 seconds, and there isn't (to my knowledge) an internal cooldown on it. So theoretically, if you attack quickly enough, and if you're fighting a target (or limited targets) with sufficient HP, then you can maintain the buff on a near-permanent basis (after a few seconds of ramp-up time).
And it's a sizable damage bonus: 10% by default, +1% for every point of Charisma over 10. Purpose-built (crit-heavy) Renegades might be looking at a Combat Advantage damage bonus as large as ~24%. Toss in the crit-severity buff, and it goes north from there. The main problem, as I see it, is that Combat Advantage often happens by accident, with or without the feat. Any time you proc the buff when you're already flanking the target, you're effectively gaining nothing from the feat.
In any case, the choice between Nightmare Wizardry and Bitter Cold isn't clear-cut either way. Bitter Cold is obviously more reliable.
Second one: Chilling presence vs eye of the storm. Ok, CP gives you up to 18% more damage, BUT EOTS gives huge burst damage, and it is even more important if you have vorpal enchant and\or shadow weaver. I have a feeling that 100% crit when pumping AS and shields with 0 CD is better than plain 18% damage increase. Not to mention that you can time you spells(eg. Iceknife) to land a 100% crit
Eye of the Storm has a 30-second internal cooldown. That means your best-case uptime on the EoTS buff is 8 / 30 = 26.7%. The worst part is that the net benefit from the buff decreases the more crit rating you have normally. In other words, EoTS gives you a 100% crit rate, but you don't start at 0%.
If, for example, you have 20% crit rate normally (and for the sake of argument, we'll say 75% crit severity), then the EoTS buff represents a (1.75 / (1 + (0.2 * 0.75)) - 1) = 52% net improvement. But then we multiply by the buff's uptime, and we end up with 52 * 0.267 = a ~13.9% net over-time damage bonus.
By contrast, if you have a 40% crit rate normally (and the same crit severity), then the EoTS buff represents a (1.75 / (1 + (0.4 * 0.75)) -1) = 34.6% net improvement while it's active. Factoring in the buff's uptime, we're down to 34.6 * 0.267 = a ~9.24% net over-time damage bonus.
In short, Chilling Presence is better in PvE. In PvP, you can make an argument for EoTS.
Third one: wth is Elemental Empoverment? am i missing something or it is really bad as i see it? Tried on test server and i just dont get it. It does almost nothing. I opted for 20% damage on Icy rays instead
Elemental Empowerment is kind of underwhelming if you're just looking at the proc damage on Cold powers, but the mitigation debuff on Arcane powers is a really nice little perk. But yeah, EE isn't exactly a cornerstone feat. As of right now (or the last time I checked) it's broken on the Preview Shard, actually.
Transcended Master probably is a better feat for PvP, assuming it works correctly with Icy Rays. I seem to recall hearing that it doesn't, but who can keep track of these things?
I use a similar build to this, but with a few tweaks for PvP, but not all worth mentioning. And i have several questions regarding reasoning behind it.
First and the most disturbing one: why bitter cold over nightmare wizardry? okay, bitter cold gives you flat 5% increase, i get it, but combat advantage gives you 20-24% if im not mistaken. Flat CA=10%+bonus from CHA(14% for me)=24%, not allways, but assuming it is up even 1\3 of the time it is still 24\3=8%, and i have a feeling it is more than 1\3.
Because a CW is constantly moving around, you are always in a combat advantage situation on multiple mobs. You can also position yourself for it. So there is a portion of the procs that are redundant. To be fair, I have not heavily tested it. But I think the result would vary based on the CW. I can see the feat benefiting more a static CW who stands in one place vs. one that is all over the place. Best way to determine that is to parse your damage running the same dungeon twice. Once with Nightmare Wizardry and once without. Then look at the difference between the total (Flank) damage of both runs. If the run with Nightmare Wizardry is constantly giving you more than 5% damage, then it's obviously better.
Second one: Chilling presence vs eye of the storm. Ok, CP gives you up to 18% more damage, BUT EOTS gives huge burst damage, and it is even more important if you have vorpal enchant and\or shadow weaver. I have a feeling that 100% crit when pumping AS and shields with 0 CD is better than plain 18% damage increase. Not to mention that you can time you spells(eg. Iceknife) to land a 100% crit
First of all it is for the same reason as Nightmare Wizardry. Every time EotS procs, it makes you wonder how many of these crits you were going to crit anyways. Your avg CW has 35% crit chance. So this 8 seconds of 100% crit, is more like 5seconds. You also have to account for seconds lost while the proc is active. It could proc on your last hit on a mob making it useless. It could proc at the exact moment you need to recharge your shield, loosing 2-3seconds. In other words, it is not a reliable proc IMO. You cant possibily be looking at your buffs to time your attacks. Holding off on an Ice Knife until you see EotS proccing is a DPS loss.
Second, because of the constant chill stacks being applied with this spec, chilling presence gives a very nice consistant damage. There is no setup to think about. CoI on Tab + Icy Terrain = constantly max Chilling Presence.
Third, up until the last fix with chilling cloud, EotS was bugged. You could go for 3 minutes non-stop 100% crit if you proc EotS and dont stop attacking, and you could also go for 3minutes without one proc of EotS.
That said, I think EotS is more useful in PvP, where you need every burst you can proc.
Third one: wth is Elemental Empoverment? am i missing something or it is really bad as i see it? Tried on test server and i just dont get it. It does almost nothing. I opted for 20% damage on Icy rays instead
For its cold effect, consider it a Lesser Lightning Enchant as a DOT. For the Arcane effect, it is a 10% debuff. Meaning everytime you pop shield, your next Steal Time is doing 10% more damage, and then anything else after the Steal Time is also getting 10% debuff. To me that is better than adding 20% damage to one Encounter that is rarely on my bar.
And i got Snap freaze instead of tempest magic(becouse im a thiefling and it doesnt stack), that i see better for PvP, especially for ROE+COI(not tabbed)+EF+IK, it hits really hard when crits with greater vorpal, or for the Ice Storm when EOTS is up and there are several enemies around you.
PVE wise, it is horrible, since 99% of the time your targets will have chill on them. Even in PvP I don't think it is worth it. As you can see, you have lots of "IF" scenarios you need happening to get the benefit. But you didnt add the what IF my target has a chill on him. It completely eliminates the benefit of the feat.
Tempest Magic is working. I actually like to see a new solid test (maybe pfft2 has a tiefling CW he can use ). If it is not stacking, then as a Tiefling you need to think of it as having 2 Tempest Magics providing you with 5% each. One that starts at 50% and another than starts at 30%. If it turns out that it is stacking, then all the better.
Maybe i'm just thinking too much about PvP and burst damage, tho i did not plan to do a PvP build, and maybe stable damage is better in PvE, but i like it this way.
Yes. There is definitely room to tweak if you were focused on PvP. But PvE wise, I personally prefer consistant benefits over RNG.
As for the powers that i use:
PvE MM+CC as at-wills(MM for solo-target), COI on tab, icy terrain, steal time, shield. i tried many mixups including sudden storm, avalance shard, CS on tab, etc, but this is the best encounter setup for the dungeons for me, and will be even better when update that gives icy terrain ability to crit goes live. For single-target damage(like in FH/SP if im the DPS/CN when all ads are gone, etc) im getting Icy rays on tab, COI, ROE, CS\shield
With the right feats, Chilling Cloud does equivalent damage to MM. It is better to have Storm Pillar as your secondary to pump AP during downtime or Ray of Frost for added CC on single targets + good AP regen.
For Single target slotting, if you use the HV set, the Chill Strike is better than ROE. 2 stacks of HV debuff is better than RoE debuff.
Anyway, I agree: Tempest Magic wouldn't be a terrible choice for Tieflings even if the feat buff overwrites the racial buff when the target is below 30% HP. Then again, if the poster is more interested in PvP than PvE, then Snap Freeze might be a better choice regardless.
Comments
You say it better than I do, which isn't unusual.
Yes, that's a point worth emphasizing and re-emphasizing: the EF-on-tab thing has nothing to do with your build. It gives you fool-proof and ridiculously high AP gain in any multi-target situation.
Instead on running endless singularity, how bout:
-Get a decent dps gwf and/or gf
-Cast Singularity
-cast CoI (mastery) onto one of the tougher mobs
-Repel (shield pulse)
-Cast Steal right before the sing ends
-Cast Icy Terrain point blank very shortly afterwards (locks enemies in place for a good second or two)
-Watch the group melt the now stacked/stun/slowed/frozen/debuffed mob (you can easily keep the mob in place for a good 5-8 seconds afterwards. more than enough time for a good group to dismantle them)
-Come to the realization you don't need a second singularity because all the enemies are dead (at the very least, the majority)
As far as entangling force goes, sure it's great for ap regen, but my god, what a useless cc ability in epic dungeons.
As far as singularity being the only viable cc ability at the cw's disposal, well, lets hope they don't nerf it for your sake (I fully expect sooner or later for balancing purposes).
No you didn't actually. You just gave an opinion, which I along with many totally disagree with. And again, in case you missed it, you can spam Singularities with this build as much as ANY other build. In fact, there are a few pulls in CN where I have back to back Singularities, without even slotting EF. Two shield pulses on a nice group can fill 100% of your AP.
First of all, instead of just throwing claims in the air, please share with us ALL the "feats" (notice plural) you are referring to that generate this insane AP. Then please provide us with details on how much AP exactly does a CW gain using "them". Because as far as I could tell with my experience, WIS/Recovery/Using Powers are the biggest contributor to AP gain.
Second, there isnt a single feat that ONLY maximizes Chilling Could. There are feats that increases dps for cold attacks, then there is a Chilling Cloud feat which increases ALL your damage.
You can't possible use the same logic of EF on tab that I used. In fact it is ridiculously far off. Here is the fact, that you will have to prove otherwise. If I use EF on Tab, using this spec, with my current WIS/Recovery, I will generate pretty much the same AP. If you however in a Renegade spec, slot the same Powers and use the same At-Will that I suggest, you will be doing anywhere between 15-40% less damage.
Much better and more mature advice would be to tell people to try out a new spec on the Preview Server before committing to it.
I never claimed that this spec should be the only one used in End-Game. You could have said its playstyle doesn't appeal to me, or I prefer the chaotic nature and unpredictability of the Renegade tree, or I prefer the survivability and utility of the Oppressor tree. But to say this spec isn't good because it doesnt generate AP or can't spam Singularity and want others to take your advice blindly is senseless.
This. So much this.
Disagreeing with a build/idea, debating better ideologies, everyone does that. Par for the course. Heck, I think people in general love doing this to explore the possibilities of the wizard class.
But feeling entitled to slam a build because you expended resources on it and that it didn't come up to your standards is just petty.
This said, I like Recovery/AP gain/Control Duration... so I'm rather eager to see what freedumb4eva has to show. While I value all the guides people have put up, I also prefer having more than one point of view to decide how I prefer playing my own wizard.
First of all, you need to understand the difference between criticism and off the wall claims. Since your original claim, and replying multiple times, you have yet to prove anything. All you're saying is 1+1=3 and failing to show us how it is possible. Exactly what part of the spec, what specific feat, what Power, what rotation did you criticize? A blanket statement with nothing to back it up is not criticism.
Second, thanks for bumping the thread. It's probably having the opposite effect of what you intended. Looking forward to reading your AP regen Renegade spec later tonight.
You're extremely predictable. I knew you would reply back again without anything useful.
It wasn't me challenging you to post your spec. You are the one who said you would post it tonight, so I was just saying that I was looking forward to it. I guess you figured it wasn't going to shed any new light on the Renegade tree.
Thank you for trying the spec and I am sorry it didn't work out for you.
I know, you said that on another thread last night. Go to the Barracks forum too please. You missed a few more threads in the barracks' forum that I was responding to as well. Thank you for your amazing insight and contribution.
Wow... I totally regret leaving my opinion here I didn't know it would result in this much flame. Your sarcastic comments are seriously disturbing... I'll delete my posts if possible. Good luck and good gaming all.
I can't really delete my posts so I will just edit them to remove my opinions.
So now you actually completely (not completely, your posts are quoted in other's peoples replies) nulified any contribution to the thread, because people have proven your statements are misleading. Thank you for bumping this thread, I'd really like to see more wizards speced and geared like OP suggests so dungeon runs are quicker and more enjoyable.
That's a shame.
I understand your frustration; opening yourself to debate on internet forums is always a bit of an iffy prospect -- but you must also understand that your approach to this thread was inflammatory from the start. Copticone put a lot of work into this guide, and he's very patiently fielded questions and comments on it for several weeks now. He has never, to my knowledge, claimed that his Thaumaturge build is the best possible spec for all people and all play styles.
The build is clearly not for you, and that's fine. If you had posted here to say simply that you tried the build and it didn't suit you, along with the reasons why, then everyone could have had a fine debate (much as we did, but with a lot less acrimony) about the merits of your approach versus the Thaumaturge approach.
But instead, you led with your chin -- framing your experience with copticone's build as a cautionary tale, implicitly urging everyone reading not just to avoid the build, but to avoid it at all costs. That was disrespectful, the internet equivalent of a dinner guest throwing a temper tantrum because his host served the wrong flavor of ice cream.
Everything went downhill from there. I know it's difficult, but please do consider your approach next time. Whatever you may believe, this forum (specifically the CW forum) is actually pretty welcoming if you just stay calm and try to be polite. Don't sweat the small stuff; stay on message, and try to keep an open mind.
First and the most disturbing one: why bitter cold over nightmare wizardry? okay, bitter cold gives you flat 5% increase, i get it, but combat advantage gives you 20-24% if im not mistaken. Flat CA=10%+bonus from CHA(14% for me)=24%, not allways, but assuming it is up even 1\3 of the time it is still 24\3=8%, and i have a feeling it is more than 1\3.
Second one: Chilling presence vs eye of the storm. Ok, CP gives you up to 18% more damage, BUT EOTS gives huge burst damage, and it is even more important if you have vorpal enchant and\or shadow weaver. I have a feeling that 100% crit when pumping AS and shields with 0 CD is better than plain 18% damage increase. Not to mention that you can time you spells(eg. Iceknife) to land a 100% crit
Third one: wth is Elemental Empoverment? am i missing something or it is really bad as i see it? Tried on test server and i just dont get it. It does almost nothing. I opted for 20% damage on Icy rays instead
And i got Snap freaze instead of tempest magic(becouse im a thiefling and it doesnt stack), that i see better for PvP, especially for ROE+COI(not tabbed)+EF+IK, it hits really hard when crits with greater vorpal, or for the Ice Storm when EOTS is up and there are several enemies around you.
Maybe i'm just thinking too much about PvP and burst damage, tho i did not plan to do a PvP build, and maybe stable damage is better in PvE, but i like it this way.
As for the powers that i use:
PvE MM+CC as at-wills(MM for solo-target), COI on tab, icy terrain, steal time, shield. i tried many mixups including sudden storm, avalance shard, CS on tab, etc, but this is the best encounter setup for the dungeons for me, and will be even better when update that gives icy terrain ability to crit goes live. For single-target damage(like in FH/SP if im the DPS/CN when all ads are gone, etc) im getting Icy rays on tab, COI, ROE, CS\shield
As for PvP i dont see how chilling cloud belongs there, so i use MM\ROF and encounter-wise 1)IR(tab) 2)COI 3)ROE\CS 4)EF\CS depending on the enemy group.
P.S sorry for my English
Snap freeze works good for arcane wizards (sheld, repel, RoE, CoI). Any stack of chill, even from your timmate, and this feat doesn't work.
As for me, I prefer stabile damage, even in PvP. RoF simply disintegrates targets in PvP.
Yes, Nightmare Wizardry has a 20% chance to proc per crit, so assuming a 40% crit rate (which is generous) we're talking about a 0.2 * 0.4 = 0.08, or 8% chance to proc Nightmare Wizardry, overall.
But the buff lasts for 4 seconds, and there isn't (to my knowledge) an internal cooldown on it. So theoretically, if you attack quickly enough, and if you're fighting a target (or limited targets) with sufficient HP, then you can maintain the buff on a near-permanent basis (after a few seconds of ramp-up time).
And it's a sizable damage bonus: 10% by default, +1% for every point of Charisma over 10. Purpose-built (crit-heavy) Renegades might be looking at a Combat Advantage damage bonus as large as ~24%. Toss in the crit-severity buff, and it goes north from there. The main problem, as I see it, is that Combat Advantage often happens by accident, with or without the feat. Any time you proc the buff when you're already flanking the target, you're effectively gaining nothing from the feat.
In any case, the choice between Nightmare Wizardry and Bitter Cold isn't clear-cut either way. Bitter Cold is obviously more reliable.
Eye of the Storm has a 30-second internal cooldown. That means your best-case uptime on the EoTS buff is 8 / 30 = 26.7%. The worst part is that the net benefit from the buff decreases the more crit rating you have normally. In other words, EoTS gives you a 100% crit rate, but you don't start at 0%.
If, for example, you have 20% crit rate normally (and for the sake of argument, we'll say 75% crit severity), then the EoTS buff represents a (1.75 / (1 + (0.2 * 0.75)) - 1) = 52% net improvement. But then we multiply by the buff's uptime, and we end up with 52 * 0.267 = a ~13.9% net over-time damage bonus.
By contrast, if you have a 40% crit rate normally (and the same crit severity), then the EoTS buff represents a (1.75 / (1 + (0.4 * 0.75)) -1) = 34.6% net improvement while it's active. Factoring in the buff's uptime, we're down to 34.6 * 0.267 = a ~9.24% net over-time damage bonus.
In short, Chilling Presence is better in PvE. In PvP, you can make an argument for EoTS.
Elemental Empowerment is kind of underwhelming if you're just looking at the proc damage on Cold powers, but the mitigation debuff on Arcane powers is a really nice little perk. But yeah, EE isn't exactly a cornerstone feat. As of right now (or the last time I checked) it's broken on the Preview Shard, actually.
Transcended Master probably is a better feat for PvP, assuming it works correctly with Icy Rays. I seem to recall hearing that it doesn't, but who can keep track of these things?
Your English is quite good!
Because a CW is constantly moving around, you are always in a combat advantage situation on multiple mobs. You can also position yourself for it. So there is a portion of the procs that are redundant. To be fair, I have not heavily tested it. But I think the result would vary based on the CW. I can see the feat benefiting more a static CW who stands in one place vs. one that is all over the place. Best way to determine that is to parse your damage running the same dungeon twice. Once with Nightmare Wizardry and once without. Then look at the difference between the total (Flank) damage of both runs. If the run with Nightmare Wizardry is constantly giving you more than 5% damage, then it's obviously better.
First of all it is for the same reason as Nightmare Wizardry. Every time EotS procs, it makes you wonder how many of these crits you were going to crit anyways. Your avg CW has 35% crit chance. So this 8 seconds of 100% crit, is more like 5seconds. You also have to account for seconds lost while the proc is active. It could proc on your last hit on a mob making it useless. It could proc at the exact moment you need to recharge your shield, loosing 2-3seconds. In other words, it is not a reliable proc IMO. You cant possibily be looking at your buffs to time your attacks. Holding off on an Ice Knife until you see EotS proccing is a DPS loss.
Second, because of the constant chill stacks being applied with this spec, chilling presence gives a very nice consistant damage. There is no setup to think about. CoI on Tab + Icy Terrain = constantly max Chilling Presence.
Third, up until the last fix with chilling cloud, EotS was bugged. You could go for 3 minutes non-stop 100% crit if you proc EotS and dont stop attacking, and you could also go for 3minutes without one proc of EotS.
That said, I think EotS is more useful in PvP, where you need every burst you can proc.
For its cold effect, consider it a Lesser Lightning Enchant as a DOT. For the Arcane effect, it is a 10% debuff. Meaning everytime you pop shield, your next Steal Time is doing 10% more damage, and then anything else after the Steal Time is also getting 10% debuff. To me that is better than adding 20% damage to one Encounter that is rarely on my bar.
PVE wise, it is horrible, since 99% of the time your targets will have chill on them. Even in PvP I don't think it is worth it. As you can see, you have lots of "IF" scenarios you need happening to get the benefit. But you didnt add the what IF my target has a chill on him. It completely eliminates the benefit of the feat.
Tempest Magic is working. I actually like to see a new solid test (maybe pfft2 has a tiefling CW he can use
Yes. There is definitely room to tweak if you were focused on PvP. But PvE wise, I personally prefer consistant benefits over RNG.
With the right feats, Chilling Cloud does equivalent damage to MM. It is better to have Storm Pillar as your secondary to pump AP during downtime or Ray of Frost for added CC on single targets + good AP regen.
For Single target slotting, if you use the HV set, the Chill Strike is better than ROE. 2 stacks of HV debuff is better than RoE debuff.
Heh, I'm afraid not. Just humans.
Anyway, I agree: Tempest Magic wouldn't be a terrible choice for Tieflings even if the feat buff overwrites the racial buff when the target is below 30% HP. Then again, if the poster is more interested in PvP than PvE, then Snap Freeze might be a better choice regardless.