Amb, Zeb you are wrong on this, it happens in so may games there's even a term for it it is called "terrain exploiting".
You will not convince anyone this was intended anymore than all those "shortcuts" in dungeons were intended, the problem is fixing it in a timely manner may not happen so they will tolerate it for now and even though they may have told you all to sing the same song, we are not stupid mateys.
. . . . . . . . . . So, we'll just have to wait and see whether the Developers intend for there to be Spawn Camping or not. If they implement mechanics to stop spawn camping, then we'll have an answer, short of them posting themselves.
It's pretty clear to anyone who has been paying attention that the Devs didn't intend for there to be spawn camping. The last patch included an effort to close off the spawn camps in Domination PvP. As most of us know, that effort was only partially successful, as clever exploiters still have different methods of getting in.
How you can even question whether or not the Devs intended this tactic blows my mind. :rolleyes:
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
Amb, Zeb you are wrong on this, it happens in so may games there's even a term for it it is called "terrain exploiting".
You will not convince anyone this was intended anymore than all those "shortcuts" in dungeons were intended, the problem is fixing it in a timely manner may not happen so they will tolerate it for now and even though they may have told you all to sing the same song, we are not stupid mateys.
. . . . .In my 20 years of MMO playing, that is the first time I have ever heard "terrain exploiting," but then again I don't put myself into situations anymore where I encounter Spawn Camping itself and I keep my distance from exploits and exploiters. I never said it was intended, so please do not put words into my mouth. I've asked this of you in the past. Let's not go backwards.
It's pretty clear to anyone who has been paying attention that the Devs didn't intend for there to be spawn camping. The last patch included an effort to close off the spawn camps in Domination PvP. As most of us know, that effort was only partially successful, as clever exploiters still have different methods of getting in.
How you can even question whether or not the Devs intended this tactic blows my mind. :rolleyes:
. . . . .I did not question and if you take what I said and then your stated observations and put them together, you might have a revelation into my post.
simply place an, "I Win" (Spellplague) Bomb, at the GY, activated by a crystal ball.
it vaporizes any hostiles within X distance of the GY.
( once campers start giving the "campies" loot and dieing from the "Spellplague Bomb", enough times, they will learn to stay father back from the GY. )
edit to add: and for those with no time between spawning and dieing to activate the ball.. simply have it activate automatically when someone re-spawns, AND if someone manually triggers it.
simply place an, "I Win" (Spellplague) Bomb, at the GY, activated by a crystal ball.
it vaporizes any hostiles within X distance of the GY.
( once campers start giving the "campies" loot and dieing from the "Spellplague Bomb", enough times, they will learn to stay father back from the GY. )
edit to add: and for those with no time between spawning and dieing to activate the ball.. simply have it activate automatically when someone re-spawns, AND if someone manually triggers it.
Wrong answer, Sportsfans! They aren't camping below the spawn point, they are camping the fire. If 4-5 fairly well geared players who know the exploit manage to get to your fire, you are basically done.
Just like I said if you read my whole post and not just the first part. I just havent experienced the spawn camp exploit yet, I did however say at the bottom of my post that if the OP is refering to an exploit involving getting ontop of the GY it needs to be fixed.
They have also claimed GY camping is fixed in domination BGs, which it isnt. You can still attack from one of the hoetnow GYs, but people cant attack that person from below.
IMO PvP in general needs a good overhaul, domination is a badly implemented type of PvP, a dead horse getting beat over and over in every new "next gen" MMO. Can we please get something different or fun? Maybe some AV type BG like in WoW (on of the few things they did well in that game). That type of gameplay is 100 times more fun than the AB type domination <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> that has been going for years on end in most every MMO with a BG system. WoW, SWToR, WaR, GW2, NW and so on, they all have it. Atleast WoW had other types of objective based BGs too, like CTF and "Conquest" (AV, Isle), "Rush/Assault" (SotA) and so on. Just like ToR had Huttball, something fresh.
GW2 and NW have been really lazy for next gen mmos, with just domination BGs, NW being the most lazy with even a 20vs20 domination BG. The AV or strand type game modes would be perfect for 20vs20.
MMO developers these days need to look at companies like DICE imo for good PvP modes and such. BF3 is fun and rewarding just to play as it is, because the maps are wonderful, the gamemodes are exciting and it works. All those game modes would be awesome in an MMO, especially an action MMO that works like NW does with its combat system.
Which leads me to another thought, when will foundry authors be able to design PvP maps and PvP gamemodes? Hah think of the awesome possibilities.
. . . . .In my 20 years of MMO playing, that is the first time I have ever heard "terrain exploiting," but then again I don't put myself into situations anymore where I encounter Spawn Camping itself and I keep my distance from exploits and exploiters. I never said it was intended, so please do not put words into my mouth. I've asked this of you in the past. Let's not go backwards.
. . . . .Snip
Wat? I am not putting words in your mouth! You did imply it may be intended but you were on a wait and see holding pattern and I just countered no one would be convinced by such words so like you told me don't put words in MY mouth, I think you might need a break from the moderating friend as you seem to be overly defensive towards people that are friendly to you. Lets move on shall we?
. . . . . SNIP. . . . . So, we'll just have to wait and see whether the Developers intend for there to be Spawn Camping or not. If they implement mechanics to stop spawn camping, then we'll have an answer, short of them posting themselves.
As to this line here :
In my 20 years of MMO playing, that is the first time I have ever heard "terrain exploiting,"
I have to ask you? Are you kidding me? It's really quite common I can't believe you never heard of this in 20 years lol Just Look here to see what I mean. Also you can look up exploits in wikipedia and read about it there, read in particular the sections about geometry and safe zones. That is what terrain exploiting is.
As for ambisinisterr he stated this in another thread found here that spawn camping wasn't an exploit.
Just so that it's clear, since I have received multiple reports over the spawn camping comment, spawn camping is not an exploiting or a punishable offense.
It's certainly something that may be changed in the future but while it is absolutely a cold thing to do it's not something that Cryptic will punish players for doing or the moderators will remove posts about. Generally if players get spawn camped they have already lost the match to begin with. It really doesn't gain an unfair advantage they didn't already have.
So let's not call players out for spawn camping.
Or anything else for that matter. Keep it civil, ya hear?
Fight them if you want. Ask them for advice. Or move on.
So you will forgive me if it looks like you all got your marching orders about this subject by the higher ups.
Btw when I say "you" to someone especially someone that's a forum mod I generally mean it in the plural sense and mean the group they are in and therefore represent.
zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited July 2013
. . . . . . I'm not miffed at all. You saying that I am saying it was intended is where I call putting words in my mouth is all. I never said it was intended and I said the only way to know is whether PWE stops it or posts publicly about it. Until then, no one can say either way for sure. Sure, they put in methods to deter it... deter and stopping are two different things. Mayhap they intended to stop it with their deterrence but it didn't work as they wanted, so it could seem like they only put in a deterrence rather than a fix that didn't work. As I said, we'll have to wait and see. That is what I meant - reading the quoted part a few times I can see how I could have worded it better, I suppose. I do apologize in that case for not being clear.
. . . . . . Honestly, this is the first time I've heard of "terrain exploiting" - personally, I don't categorize exploits, to me and exploit is an exploit. It doesn't matter what is on the internet about it, the bottom line is I have never came across a situation where I have heard "terrain exploiting." Maybe I have and it just registered to me for what it is at its core, exploiting. Who knows? Not me!
. . . . . . I'm not miffed at all. You saying that I am saying it was intended is where I call putting words in my mouth is all. I never said it was intended and I said the only way to know is whether PWE stops it or posts publicly about it. Until then, no one can say either way for sure. Sure, they put in methods to deter it... deter and stopping are two different things. Mayhap they intended to stop it with their deterrence but it didn't work as they wanted, so it could seem like they only put in a deterrence rather than a fix that didn't work. As I said, we'll have to wait and see. That is what I meant.
. . . . . . Honestly, this is the first time I've heard of "terrain exploiting" - personally, I don't categorize exploits, to me and exploit is an exploit. It doesn't matter what is on the internet about it, the bottom line is I have never came across a situation where I have heard "terrain exploiting." Maybe I have and it just registered to me for what it is at its core, exploiting. Who knows? Not me!
Zeb you implied it may be intended you can't deny this, also I do not say you said this. I posted you and Amb were wrong (I meant wrong as in wrong to defend this kind of thing) and then said you would not convince us it was intended , as you implied it was in a previous post.
As for exploit categories you need to know about this kind of thing if you wish to mod a forum effectively, saying an exploit is an exploit is like saying a criminal is a criminal.
Do you put the person that stole some bread to eat in the same boat as the guy that killed 20 people and ate their bodies? I mean they are both criminals are they not, so lets just draw and quarter them both shall we?
Zeb you implied it may be intended you can't deny this, also I do not say you said this. I posted you and and were wrong to defend this and then said you would not convince us it was intended , as you implied it was in a previous post.
. . . . . . Sorry, I do deny it never-the-less. I can see, as I edited in my post above, how it could have been misinterpreted though. If implication does come across, it was not intended and should not be taken that way and instead read with an open mind.
. . . . . . Sorry, I do deny it never-the-less. I can see, as I edited in my post above, how it could have been misinterpreted though. If implication does come across, it was not intended and should not be taken that way and instead read with an open mind.
Now you are implying I do not have an open mind when I do
. . . . . Anyone, anywhere, who has ever known me - online or not, knows that I would never condone exploiting or cheating or even anything remotely illegal (I obey the laws of the land that I set foot in, tk, td, tw, tks). While I don't view Spawn Camping as cheating, it is a dirty trick that I do not like and would not participate in. To me, exploiting is finding a loophole in game mechanics and using those mechanics to cheat - while Spawn Camping is taking advantage of tactics left in the game by the developers of said game.
. . . . . The way I see spawn camping in MMOs and other PvP games is; If the developers did not want Spawn Camping, they would put in mechanics to prevent it. In such a case, where mechanics are in place to stop spawn camping and then spawn camping continues, I would then consider it exploiting.
. . . . . So, we'll just have to wait and see whether the Developers intend for there to be Spawn Camping or not. If they implement mechanics to stop spawn camping, then we'll have an answer, short of them posting themselves.
In green I have no problem with but the last bit in red is where you get in trouble.
You are saying straight out that if the devs do not implement a way to stop people from doing this then they intend for spawn camping to be allowed. This also implies if they do something about it it is not intended.
If you had left this "If they implement mechanics to stop spawn camping, then we'll have an answer, short of them posting themselves" last line out there would be no implying being done.
In green I have no problem with but the last bit in red is where you get in trouble.
You are saying straight out that if the devs do not implement a way to stop people from doing this then they intend for spawn camping to be allowed. This also implies if they do something about it it is not intended.
If you had left this "If they implement mechanics to stop spawn camping, then we'll have an answer, short of them posting themselves" last line out there would be no implying being done.
so deny all you want
. . . . . Very well, I do understand where you're coming from then and will adjust my statement accordingly. Thanks for being civil and explaining to me enough for me understand your viewpoint. Much appreciated.
. . . . . Very well, I do understand where you're coming from then and will adjust my statement accordingly. Thanks for being civil and explaining to me enough for me understand your viewpoint. Much appreciated.
Is all good I was just keeping at it so you would understand why some of the people are being all QQ about it. Personally I have kind of stopped playing so I don't really care about it.
The fact they made the old GF stalwart set not work with the new version was the straw that broke the camels back for me. If they ever fix them to work together or offer a trade in of old pieces for new ones I will play again but till then I am enjoying FFXIV ARR!
I mean come one I just was missing the helm when they "fixed" them and I am not refarming all the other pieces, Hell Will Freeze Over First.
Let me clear something up for you thetruezesban (and manholio). You have been here since April 2013 (and manholio since May 2013 respectively). Well many cryptic millenniums ago back in April 2012 there probably wasn't a person on these forums, that had a doubt where I fell on issues related to cheating and foul play. And little has changed, I promise you. I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt, that you can take your pre-conceived notions of the Cryptic moderator team, roll em up real good... into a nice little round ball... and store it to your nearest circular file (that's the smelly trash can behind ya.) Let me clear things up further for ya.
There areno moderators on our team, that support or even condone cheating in Neverwinter. This includes the dirty game of spawn camping. What was said is it is not a "bannable offense". Currently. However, noone here supports this cheap and pathetic tactic. Instead of trying to police every single pvp group, it may be far more efficient to code it out and make changes so this cannot happen as easily or at all. This is how I personally am recommending they fix it.
Unfortunately in this free to play world of gaming, it's not difficult to see some either blatantly cheating or execute and promote bad sportsmanship for all to see. The blame should never fall on the development or moderator community. Blame those who cheat. Report it. As long as you follow our Rules of Conduct you can tell us how ticked off you are about it. But never, ever, for a day, hour or second think that we are going to support directly, or indirectly, foul play of any kind in Neverwinter. Just don't say it. Because anyone that's been here longer than you knows full well how serious we take cheating.
Enjoy your game of Neverwinter Thetruezesba & Manholio.
Aandre
Two things.
First, I was only asking Amb to be more careful with his language. As others have pointed out, words like these are what people who exploit are using to justify their actions rather than police themselves. And I gave him props for owning it. Dude's a legit adult about it.
The really frustrating part is I didn't think I'd have to take screenshots of Mod posts to prove that these things might happen because I trusted they wouldn't. The best evidence I have at this time then is TickledPink's response that quotes the word "low" which was used in the Mod post that has been deleted. There's no one else using the word low, why else would they have quoted it? Regardless, "low, low, low."
spawn camping always been "low". If you cant allow your opponent to get up and get their footing without killing them again says more about you than it does about them.(and it aint good)
I understand you want to stand up for your moderators and I can appreciate and support that. Just look in to who you're defending next time before you attack those who also want a good community. I'll usually take the side of the mods in any given discussion, even give them the benefit of the doubt. And sometimes humans make mistakes, that's understandable. But trying to hide those mistakes, instead of admitting fault? That's foul play.
Also, pointing out April 2013 here is kinda pointless, since I've been with Cryptic since City of Heroes Beta, this forum just happens to be a recent one I joined since they couldn't managing merging my accounts over time well.
And I did finally find a screenshot of this happening -
Comments
You will not convince anyone this was intended anymore than all those "shortcuts" in dungeons were intended, the problem is fixing it in a timely manner may not happen so they will tolerate it for now and even though they may have told you all to sing the same song, we are not stupid mateys.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
It's pretty clear to anyone who has been paying attention that the Devs didn't intend for there to be spawn camping. The last patch included an effort to close off the spawn camps in Domination PvP. As most of us know, that effort was only partially successful, as clever exploiters still have different methods of getting in.
How you can even question whether or not the Devs intended this tactic blows my mind. :rolleyes:
. . . . .In my 20 years of MMO playing, that is the first time I have ever heard "terrain exploiting," but then again I don't put myself into situations anymore where I encounter Spawn Camping itself and I keep my distance from exploits and exploiters. I never said it was intended, so please do not put words into my mouth. I've asked this of you in the past. Let's not go backwards.
. . . . .I did not question and if you take what I said and then your stated observations and put them together, you might have a revelation into my post.
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
it vaporizes any hostiles within X distance of the GY.
( once campers start giving the "campies" loot and dieing from the "Spellplague Bomb", enough times, they will learn to stay father back from the GY. )
edit to add: and for those with no time between spawning and dieing to activate the ball.. simply have it activate automatically when someone re-spawns, AND if someone manually triggers it.
Best solution yet. Poetic role reversal. Love it.
Just like I said if you read my whole post and not just the first part. I just havent experienced the spawn camp exploit yet, I did however say at the bottom of my post that if the OP is refering to an exploit involving getting ontop of the GY it needs to be fixed.
They have also claimed GY camping is fixed in domination BGs, which it isnt. You can still attack from one of the hoetnow GYs, but people cant attack that person from below.
IMO PvP in general needs a good overhaul, domination is a badly implemented type of PvP, a dead horse getting beat over and over in every new "next gen" MMO. Can we please get something different or fun? Maybe some AV type BG like in WoW (on of the few things they did well in that game). That type of gameplay is 100 times more fun than the AB type domination <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> that has been going for years on end in most every MMO with a BG system. WoW, SWToR, WaR, GW2, NW and so on, they all have it. Atleast WoW had other types of objective based BGs too, like CTF and "Conquest" (AV, Isle), "Rush/Assault" (SotA) and so on. Just like ToR had Huttball, something fresh.
GW2 and NW have been really lazy for next gen mmos, with just domination BGs, NW being the most lazy with even a 20vs20 domination BG. The AV or strand type game modes would be perfect for 20vs20.
MMO developers these days need to look at companies like DICE imo for good PvP modes and such. BF3 is fun and rewarding just to play as it is, because the maps are wonderful, the gamemodes are exciting and it works. All those game modes would be awesome in an MMO, especially an action MMO that works like NW does with its combat system.
Which leads me to another thought, when will foundry authors be able to design PvP maps and PvP gamemodes? Hah think of the awesome possibilities.
Wat? I am not putting words in your mouth! You did imply it may be intended but you were on a wait and see holding pattern and I just countered no one would be convinced by such words so like you told me don't put words in MY mouth, I think you might need a break from the moderating friend as you seem to be overly defensive towards people that are friendly to you. Lets move on shall we?
QFT
As to this line here :
I have to ask you? Are you kidding me?
As for ambisinisterr he stated this in another thread found here that spawn camping wasn't an exploit.
QFT
So you will forgive me if it looks like you all got your marching orders about this subject by the higher ups.
Btw when I say "you" to someone especially someone that's a forum mod I generally mean it in the plural sense and mean the group they are in and therefore represent.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
. . . . . . Honestly, this is the first time I've heard of "terrain exploiting" - personally, I don't categorize exploits, to me and exploit is an exploit. It doesn't matter what is on the internet about it, the bottom line is I have never came across a situation where I have heard "terrain exploiting." Maybe I have and it just registered to me for what it is at its core, exploiting. Who knows? Not me!
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
Zeb you implied it may be intended you can't deny this, also I do not say you said this. I posted you and Amb were wrong (I meant wrong as in wrong to defend this kind of thing) and then said you would not convince us it was intended , as you implied it was in a previous post.
As for exploit categories you need to know about this kind of thing if you wish to mod a forum effectively, saying an exploit is an exploit is like saying a criminal is a criminal.
Do you put the person that stole some bread to eat in the same boat as the guy that killed 20 people and ate their bodies? I mean they are both criminals are they not, so lets just draw and quarter them both shall we?
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
Now you are implying I do not have an open mind when I do
In green I have no problem with but the last bit in red is where you get in trouble.
You are saying straight out that if the devs do not implement a way to stop people from doing this then they intend for spawn camping to be allowed. This also implies if they do something about it it is not intended.
If you had left this "If they implement mechanics to stop spawn camping, then we'll have an answer, short of them posting themselves" last line out there would be no implying being done.
so deny all you want
Is all good though
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
Oh dear! *the mage chuckles madly*
. . . . . Very well, I do understand where you're coming from then and will adjust my statement accordingly. Thanks for being civil and explaining to me enough for me understand your viewpoint. Much appreciated.
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
Is all good I was just keeping at it so you would understand why some of the people are being all QQ about it. Personally I have kind of stopped playing so I don't really care about it.
The fact they made the old GF stalwart set not work with the new version was the straw that broke the camels back for me. If they ever fix them to work together or offer a trade in of old pieces for new ones I will play again but till then I am enjoying FFXIV ARR!
I mean come one I just was missing the helm when they "fixed" them and I am not refarming all the other pieces, Hell Will Freeze Over First.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
Two things.
First, I was only asking Amb to be more careful with his language. As others have pointed out, words like these are what people who exploit are using to justify their actions rather than police themselves. And I gave him props for owning it. Dude's a legit adult about it.
Second, in the *linked* post, a Mod *did* come out in *favor* of Spawn Camping. Which is why his post has been *DELETED* from the forum, by only those with the power to do so. That is low, low, low. That link again is http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?381092-Spawn-Camping-in-Gauntlgrym-is-allowed
The really frustrating part is I didn't think I'd have to take screenshots of Mod posts to prove that these things might happen because I trusted they wouldn't. The best evidence I have at this time then is TickledPink's response that quotes the word "low" which was used in the Mod post that has been deleted. There's no one else using the word low, why else would they have quoted it? Regardless, "low, low, low."
I understand you want to stand up for your moderators and I can appreciate and support that. Just look in to who you're defending next time before you attack those who also want a good community. I'll usually take the side of the mods in any given discussion, even give them the benefit of the doubt. And sometimes humans make mistakes, that's understandable. But trying to hide those mistakes, instead of admitting fault? That's foul play.
Also, pointing out April 2013 here is kinda pointless, since I've been with Cryptic since City of Heroes Beta, this forum just happens to be a recent one I joined since they couldn't managing merging my accounts over time well.
And I did finally find a screenshot of this happening -
What Class Are You?
Look Mom I'm E-Famous!
Did the devs put up the wall to deter entrance into the spawn point, or did they put up the wall with the intent of barring entrance.
What Class Are You?
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]