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Remove Graveyard Camping from Gauntlgrym
thetruezesban
Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
Graveyard camping in Gauntlygrym needs to be removed. This is ruining the experience for players and allowing for faster than normal Grym Coin gathering.
Post edited by thetruezesban on
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It's a PvP area, camping below a GY is a viable tactic. No matter where they place the GY, some teams will camp whatever bottleneck lies closest to a spawnpoint because it's the smart thing to do if you have the upper hand.
Exploiting and getting ontop of the spawn area is another thing, that should be fixed if it's possible to get up there. But I assume you are talking about GY base camping.
An incorrect assumption to make. I'm speaking precisely of the exploit you detail in your last paragraph.
What Class Are You?
But certainly spawn camping shouldn't be possible to begin with. I doubt you will have to wait long to see the security beef up.
Try having a whole guild sitting on you and dropping Shards, Arcane Singularities, GWF AoE swings, Smoke Bombs, Paths of Blades, Front Line Surges, and everything else AoE right on the spawn timers for 5 minutes straight without a single person being able to make it out once they get sent in.
Also watch as the few *not* in your GY then 5 cap and win whilst your whole side is locked down from spawning.
That's what's happening.
What Class Are You?
From your mouth to the developers ears.
Good luck they are probably wearing headphones! :P
- Drizzt Do'Urden
― R.A. Salvatore
so thats the only time you have been camped... how many times have you camped?
Gauntelgrym? None.
Domination? I think you'd be hard pressed to find somebody who hasn't spawn camped at least once. Not something I often did but after getting spawn camped a few times in a row anybody would be relieved to get the chance to be the spanker rather than the spankee.
However that's a different matter. There's no reason why there shouldn't be some regulations of Domination Matchmaking. Impossible and Effortless matches only occur because the matchmaking system fails to match teams based on GS and number of pug and premade members. Even now that there are walls I end up dancing in my spawn point or beneath the enemy spawn point more often than I care to...
And that's not fun for anybody.
However the difference is that GG Spawn Camping is actually a tactical maneuver which supplies a hefty advantage while Domination Spawn Camping only occurs, honestly, after matchmaking failed to supply a fair and challenging fight for both teams.
Cryptic should be renamed Molasses.
Wow, Cryptic actually designed GG with spawn camping in mind? Really? I mean, you didn't actually say that in words I know, but it is a 'tactical maneuver' as a result of intentional or unintentional design, and is therefore considered a valid part of GG.
How is that at all good game design?
I see you haven't had the full Gauntlgrym spawn camping experience quite yet then, community moderator.....
...I discover I can -walk- right up to the spawn in Gauntlgrym with two CW's and and open trade to deliver the Purple Epic bag to twenty men at a time with cleave. =/
And so the Epic Teabag was born =/
This is the first time I've ever seen "grief play" referred to as a "tactical maneuver." Orwell would be proud.
In other news "murder" is now "tactical blood reallocation" and insanity is now "playing Gauntlgrym PvP." Absurd.
If this is working as intended then I'll be "tactically maneuvering" myself elsewhere, where there's still legitimate game design occurring.
What Class Are You?
Wow jump on me because I have a decent vocabulary. I shudder to ponder the repercussions that would transpire if I didn't attempt to reduce my more verbose and archaic phrases which I employ in more befitting environments.
Spawn Camping is Griefing. Spawn Camping is not intended.
But as it stands now it supplies and advantage. It may not be a kind thing to do...but if it works...well...that's tactical. History is full of cold tactics. That doesn't make them morally right but it's very much the within the word's definition.
The difference is here you're representing a company and a product by posting under your official account. And if you structure your language in such as way as to appear to condone such acts you also appear to extend those condolences by way of the company and its products to its consumers.
It's a matter of responsibly conveying the stance of the company. Just look at the other thread that had to be *redacted* because another mod came out *in favor* of the spawn camping that's happening -
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?381092-Spawn-Camping-in-Gauntlgrym-is-allowed
That sort of skullduggery is exactly why so many posters on this forum do not trust you mods!
This is grief play, it's running rampant, and it needs to be stopped. I don't have a direct line to the developers, or I'd just tell them myself. This is the best channel I have. But I'd hazard a guess that you guys have a better channel than we do. That's why we come here to post about these issues, and the only way we can trust that this issue is being treated as grief play and that something will, eventually, be done about it, is if you all get together and represent that clearly when posting on the forums.
As it stands there are far too many people out there right now that actually think this is ok, and that the *mods* even support it!
What Class Are You?
As such...griefing is bad...
Griefing will be fixed by the developers...
But spawn camping is not a punishable offense.
Plain and simple. I am not endorsing it. I am merely telling you what it is.
Thank you for being so clear. I appreciate the candor and the mutual respect. I'm sure moderating forums is very stressful, since you're exposed to some of the worst of human negativity all day, every day.
I'm still wondering, do the developers know that this is happening, and how bad the extent is? Or rather, has it been reported to them if that's the best that can be done?
What Class Are You?
I know this question isn't directed to me in particular, but I can nearly guarantee you the developers are aware it's happening.
They are probably working on a proper solution and making sure that solution actually works, if they learnt anything from their 2 failed attempts to prevent spawn camping in domination.
I don't know what actions they will take but they are aware. I highly doubt they will let it remain as it is but I can't say anything more than that.
And this goes for things above and beyond Gauntelgrym. Anything that "vanishes" from the forums just goes to a more secret location. If somebody posts an exploit the first place it gets sent is to the CM's who then hand it to the Developers.
There's little that goes on the forums which the developers don't see. The devs read the forums daily. The CM's read the forums more than I do and pass on a ton of feedback their way. And of course the Community Moderators have a close relationship with the CM's and it's quite often we'll send them certain threads to read or look over plus our own venting (which does include spawn camping) goes a long way.
Generally there's a lot of behind the scenes work going on. It may take time for the players to see it but it does get done.
Wrong answer, Sportsfans! They aren't camping below the spawn point, they are camping the fire. If 4-5 fairly well geared players who know the exploit manage to get to your fire, you are basically done.
Hmm. It's griefing. It's not intended. And it supplies a tactical advantage. Kinda sounds like an exploit, no? Yet you've been quoted more than once saying that it is not an actionable offense. Why not? This "tactic" is essentially ruining Gaunt PvP for anyone unfortunate enough to queue up with well coordinated, well geared groups who practice it. No one on their side can outpoint them, and anyone who dies at any point in the match on the opposing side ends up in an instagib loop for the entiriety of the match.
Not intended + supplies tactical advantage = exploit.
Let me clear something up for you thetruezesban (and manholio). You have been here since April 2013 (and manholio since May 2013 respectively). Well many cryptic millenniums ago back in April 2012 there probably wasn't a person on these forums, that had a doubt where I fell on issues related to cheating and foul play. And little has changed, I promise you. I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt, that you can take your pre-conceived notions of the Cryptic moderator team, roll em up real good... into a nice little round ball... and store it to your nearest circular file (that's the smelly trash can behind ya.) Let me clear things up further for ya.
There are no moderators on our team, that support or even condone cheating in Neverwinter. This includes the dirty game of spawn camping. What was said is it is not a "bannable offense". Currently. However, noone here supports this cheap and pathetic tactic. Instead of trying to police every single pvp group, it may be far more efficient to code it out and make changes so this cannot happen as easily or at all. This is how I personally am recommending they fix it.
Unfortunately in this free to play world of gaming, it's not difficult to see some either blatantly cheating or execute and promote bad sportsmanship for all to see. The blame should never fall on the development or moderator community. Blame those who cheat. Report it. As long as you follow our Rules of Conduct you can tell us how ticked off you are about it. But never, ever, for a day, hour or second think that we are going to support directly, or indirectly, foul play of any kind in Neverwinter. Just don't say it. Because anyone that's been here longer than you knows full well how serious we take cheating.
Enjoy your game of Neverwinter Thetruezesba & Manholio.
Aandre
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On top of all that, it seems a little off to me for a forum mod to speak as if he/she has the authority to determine what is and isn't allowed ingame. You guys aren't GM's, right? Seems to me it would have been more kosher for this mod to have said "hey, I checked with some GM's/Devs and they say that spawn camping isn't an exploit or a bannable offense." Splitting hairs maybe, but you guys aren't GMs and shouldn't try to come off as such.
Thanks for the reply, Aandre. It is much appreciated to know that at least one mod shares the same thoughts and opinions regarding the "dirty game" of spawn camping.
Its not one mod its all mods, including Ambi. You read it sideways. Read it again. He never says he does it or supports it. He said it was a tactic, which it is. He says it was morally wrong, which it is. He says its not bannable, which it isn't. He says its not an exploit... its not. Problem with that word exploit is its like Pay to Win. Ask 10 peeps if a game is Pay to Win you get 10 different answers. Same with exploit.
They aren't going to hire an NFL ref to sit in on every pvp map/dungeon and call fouls. With a never ending supply of cheaters/wise guys that thinks it fun to get an unfair advantage for their entertainment and profit, at the expense of another teams time money and play experience, the only solution in my book is to recode the system so it can't happen.
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His words were used as a defense by those who do it. I understand that it can be taken different ways and is open to interpretation.
I do believe it is an exploit when you look at the manner in which it is being used. Gaunt PvP is a competition that includes greater rewards for the winner. If you are unlucky enough to be in a queue with a group using this "tactic" (which is clearly not intended) no one else in that instance can compete. I also understand that this is my opinion and that your mileage will vary among other players.
Here's to hoping that Cryptic/PWE closes the spawn points as was initially intended.
Exploiting in my definition (which is the definition most game companies use) is to use an error in programming in order to gain an unfair advantage. Well terrain issues can be errors but it's not in this case because players are using intended game mechanics in order to access the spawn points. There's a wall so players are not intended to gain access to the spawn point but players can use existing intended game mechanics in order to access the spawn points with moderate difficulty (jumping).
That's a major oversight on Cryptic's end but it is not an exploit. If it was then you would also have to ban all of the players for jumping up walls in order to reach scrying stones because it is the exact same mechanics.
An example of an exploit would be the auction house exploit which duplicated Astral Diamonds by bidding a negative value of Astral Diamonds.
Basically if you are using intended game mechanics in an unintended way it is not an exploit. I hope this clarifies the difference.
In either event the only thing I defend is the right for players to post on the forums as long as they do not break the forum or in game rules. As stated spawn camping is not a violation of the rules and as such any post which insults users for spawn camping is, by definition, a rule breaking post as a Trolling/Flaming post.
I don't condone it...but they aren't violating the rules and as such no action will be taken against them but rather action will be taken against those who refuse to refrain from insulting players and guilds who spawn camp. Plain and simple.
Here is the book. Insulting other users won't be tolerated no matter how much you feel they deserve it.
1) The texture directly outside the spawn areas of gauntylgrym allows players to climb up and jump+shift into CAMPFIRE SPAWN AREA.
2) The texture INSIDE gauntylgrym campfire spawn area allows players to leave the spawn area before timer counts down for the actual match to start.
FIX IT.
The end.
. . . . . The way I see spawn camping in MMOs and other PvP games is; If the developers did not want Spawn Camping, they would put in mechanics to prevent it. In such a case, where mechanics are in place to stop spawn camping and then spawn camping continues, I would then consider it exploiting.
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Really bad example, methinks, as reaching a scrying stone doesn't effect anyone else's game or game experience. On top of that, you can clearly tell that the Devs purposefully placed the scrying stones in places that are hard to reach. I believe that was intended.
PvP is a team competition. Gaining an unfair advantage over the rest of your competition by exploiting an unintended hole in the mechanics is an exploit by your own definition.
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.