From a business stand point and lets face that what this is, it makes perfect sense to continue selling these items in some form. They took time and money to create and if demand remains than why not continue to sell? Those who bought the packs based on a prescribed exclusivity have already purchased, by removing the founders title they have honored their original statement in word at least if not in spirit.
PWE claimed the Founder's Pack contained exclusive items that were available only for a limited time, called the Founder's Program, that would end (that date kept changing), and after said date these Founder Packs would no longer be available for sale.
Simply removing the title 'Founder' is not sufficient to satisfy the earlier claims of exclusive and limited availability of in-game items. The title 'Founder' is not an in-game item. PWE used deceptive marketing.
No one would have paid $200 or $60 for the title 'Founder'. People were not supposed to be able to purchase the in-game items, such as Spider mounts, or Dire Wolves, or the special Drow race, ever again once the Founder program ended. If PWE had said, "These packs will always be available, but if you get them before Live Launch Day you will get a 'Founder' title" that statement would have been 100% honest, and I would not have bought my $60 Founder pack.
I would have played the game more, seen that it was not worth spending $60 on, and never purchased a pack. When I bought my pack on May 6th, 2013, this very website had a banner text ad on top of every page which read, "Founder's Program ends May 9th". That date was the 100% reason I bought the pack with the Dire Wolf on May 6th. If it had said, "Buy a pack now to get the Founder title; Dire Wolf will always be available for purchase" I would not have bought one.
That same week the date was changed to May 30th. Later in May the date was changed to 'soon'. Then any reference to the Founder Program ever ending was removed entirely. Now the Founder Packs and all the in-game items they contain are available in perpetuity. Therefore, PWE advertising and selling these in-game item packs as exclusive and limited availability was false advertising.
PWE claimed the Founder's Pack contained exclusive items that were available only for a limited time, called the Founder's Program, that would end (that date kept changing), and after said date these Founder Packs would no longer be available for sale.
Simply removing the title 'Founder' is not sufficient to satisfy the earlier claims of exclusive and limited availability of in-game items. The title 'Founder' is not an in-game item. PWE used deceptive marketing.
No one would have paid $200 or $60 for the title 'Founder'. People were not supposed to be able to purchase the in-game items, such as Spider mounts, or Dire Wolves, or the special Drow race, ever again once the Founder program ended. If PWE had said, "These packs will always be available, but if you get them before Live Launch Day you will get a 'Founder' title" that statement would have been 100% honest, and I would not have bought my $60 Founder pack.
I would have played the game more, seen that it was not worth spending $60 on, and never purchased a pack. When I bought my pack on May 6th, 2013, this very website had a banner text ad on top of every page which read, "Founder's Program ends May 9th". That date was the 100% reason I bought the pack with the Dire Wolf on May 6th. If it had said, "Buy a pack now to get the Founder title; Dire Wolf will always be available for purchase" I would not have bought one.
That same week the date was changed to May 30th. Later in May the date was changed to 'soon'. Then any reference to the Founder Program ever ending was removed entirely. Now the Founder Packs and all the in-game items they contain are available in perpetuity. Therefore, PWE advertising and selling these in-game item packs as exclusive and limited availability was false advertising.
PWE is a company of liars and crooks.
This. Exactly this. Well put, and while it should be obvious to everyone it seems it isn't - a rather scary thought.
Here's my perspective. The items designed for the Founder's packs are art. Art is more valuable when it is rare. People bought said art because it was advertised as being available only for a limited amount of time. This is like if I was a famous artist, faked my death, and then sold thousands of photocopies of a drawing as rare, autographed works of art. Then ten years later the people that spent a couple hundred bucks on this meet me at an Art Show, selling copies of the same picture, for the same price.
Oh, by the way, play my quest. It's only available for a limited amount of time, and only costs two hundred bucks. -leaves his quest up for the rest of eternity-
A replacement pack should have been planned for already with new mount and etc. I was actually expecting it but this does seem a bit... sleezy.
Corporate was prob saying. "We didn't sell as many as we thought we were," Employee1. Employee2, "Well if they are still selling leave them up, we don't want to offend new buyers and we could use the money." Employee3, "But wont they be offended because it was, you know, a time limit... and I did tell you all to sell them for less so you would sell more..."
Have they still not talked about this, open line of information to us? Ive been hounding them on Twitter and FB and several has hounded them hear, people are obviously upset; their customers. Why this silence? How can they excuse this?
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gutbotMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 28Arc User
PW will sell anything to anyone that will pay. They could care less what their customers think of them because there's always another sucker in line.
Sorry, I know its pedantic but this annoys me a lot. Its couldn't care less and not could care less.
Could care less means you could care less if you want to but your level of caring is stagnant for now.
Couldn't care less on the other hand, means you are finished caring about the issue at hand and therefore you have reached the pinnacle of caring.
Source: ex carebear
As for the founders pack it seems to me to be highly immoral to sell something at such a high price and claim that it is exclusive, when its clearly not.
Have they still not talked about this, open line of information to us? Ive been hounding them on Twitter and FB and several has hounded them hear, people are obviously upset; their customers. Why this silence? How can they excuse this?
In your case, they probably don't want to respond to the faux outrage from someone who didn't buy a founder's pack and has no reason to be that upset about it (seeing that you admitted you didn't buy a pack earlier in this thread).
As far as the arguments in this thread go, companies do this all the time with limited/special editions of their products. As someone pointed out, if you were expected them not to sell the items in the pack in some form or other in the future when you bought it, then you aren't all that savvy about how businesses operate.
In your case, they probably don't want to respond to the faux outrage from someone who didn't buy a founder's pack and has no reason to be that upset about it (seeing that you admitted you didn't buy a pack earlier in this thread).
As far as the arguments in this thread go, companies do this all the time with limited/special editions of their products. As someone pointed out, if you were expected them not to sell the items in the pack in some form or other in the future when you bought it, then you aren't all that savvy about how businesses operate.
I've talked to them in several ways, both kind and more demanding, on several sites, both telling them and not telling them that I'm not a Founder - and guess what? It doesn't matter if Im not a Founder and I do have a reason to be upset about how they treat their customers, as, guess what; I am one. I am one of their customers, paying at that. The policy or ethics (or lack thereof) concerns me, not only Founders have some right to be concerned about the appearent shadiness of a company they're investing in or buying from.
Let that sink in abit, ponder, and come back with your new insights regarding how you just failed in your attempt to simply get a rise out of me, internet hero.
It doesnt matter what other companies do all the time with limited/special edition products. We are talking about THIS company. If someone "falls for it", meaning they buy in trust and good faith on the foundation of the deal this company offered and outlined to be one way, only to then revoke and go against the earlier offer or deal, you honestly try to blame the customers who bought from them...? Seriously?
"All the other kids are doing it" is not a valid excuse for a behaviour this ****ty from a company, sorry. Again; Try again, or back to your bridge.
As far as the arguments in this thread go, companies do this all the time with limited/special editions of their products. As someone pointed out, if you were expected them not to sell the items in the pack in some form or other in the future when you bought it, then you aren't all that savvy about how businesses operate.
'Some form or another' I could understand. They removed the 'Founder' title. All the items in each pack were supposed to be exclusive to that pack, and available for a limited time--not just the 'Founder' title. Had PWE been honest and said, 'Only the Founder title is exclusive', I would not have paid $60 for a Founder title.
When they originally released these Founders Packs, they implied they would be gone when the first beta weekend occurred. Then they said when Open Beta began. Then they said May 9th. Then they said May 30th. Then they said 'soon'. Now, they finally admit 'never', and that the items are not exclusive, which is false advertising and deceptive marketing.
I am sorry; I cannot think of a single other experience as a consumer in my life where a company called something 'exclusive' and both stated and implied that the item would be available for a limited time, even providing concrete dates, and then repeatedly changed those dates, and then just sold the exact same items permanently in their store, thus rendering their earlier statements of 'exclusivity' and 'limited edition' complete falsehoods.
I work in a multi-billion dollar global investment bank, so I consider myself 'business savvy'.
Please provide one other actual occurrence of a company that did this same false advertising of exclusive, limited edition products that they then immediately renamed and sold permanently, thereby rendering their previous references of limited availability as false advertising and deceptive marketing.
This type of unethical marketing does not occur all the time, because class-action lawsuits and negative publicity would put companies out-of-business. I guarantee, many former customers of PWE will never purchase their products again because of this single incident.
Again, I ask for one other example. Please provide.
PWE claimed the Founder's Pack contained exclusive items that were available only for a limited time, called the Founder's Program, that would end (that date kept changing), and after said date these Founder Packs would no longer be available for sale.
Simply removing the title 'Founder' is not sufficient to satisfy the earlier claims of exclusive and limited availability of in-game items. The title 'Founder' is not an in-game item. PWE used deceptive marketing.
No one would have paid $200 or $60 for the title 'Founder'. People were not supposed to be able to purchase the in-game items, such as Spider mounts, or Dire Wolves, or the special Drow race, ever again once the Founder program ended. If PWE had said, "These packs will always be available, but if you get them before Live Launch Day you will get a 'Founder' title" that statement would have been 100% honest, and I would not have bought my $60 Founder pack.
I would have played the game more, seen that it was not worth spending $60 on, and never purchased a pack. When I bought my pack on May 6th, 2013, this very website had a banner text ad on top of every page which read, "Founder's Program ends May 9th". That date was the 100% reason I bought the pack with the Dire Wolf on May 6th. If it had said, "Buy a pack now to get the Founder title; Dire Wolf will always be available for purchase" I would not have bought one.
That same week the date was changed to May 30th. Later in May the date was changed to 'soon'. Then any reference to the Founder Program ever ending was removed entirely. Now the Founder Packs and all the in-game items they contain are available in perpetuity. Therefore, PWE advertising and selling these in-game item packs as exclusive and limited availability was false advertising.
PWE is a company of liars and crooks.
I was not seeking to excuse PWE in my explanation I was merely explaining things from their point of view, I believe it is important to see things from both sides if you wish to have a debate on an issue and to avoid personalising something which is not in any way a personal issue.
To you gaming may be a passion or merely a pass time, but make no mistake to PWE it is a business, they make these games because it is a good return on the investment, if it was not a good return they would not make them and that is the bottom line. This game is paying their bills and at least in part funding their lifestyles. Understanding this make their actions easier to understand and less easy to vilify. Once again I do not condone such actions but I understand the motivation, I'm afraid you will see more of this sort of thing as integrity is for many a poor substitute for income. You can complain on the forums all you like, this has no effect on the bottom line, in fact it is the opposite, by posting in the forums you show your interest in the game and continued participation.
I am sorry; I cannot think of a single other experience as a consumer in my life where a company called something 'exclusive' and both stated and implied that the item would be available for a limited time, even providing concrete dates, and then repeatedly changed those dates, and then just sold the exact same items permanently in their store, thus rendering their earlier statements of 'exclusivity' and 'limited edition' complete falsehoods.
I work in a multi-billion dollar global investment bank, so I consider myself 'business savvy'.
Please provide one other actual occurrence of a company that did this same false advertising of exclusive, limited edition products that they then immediately renamed and sold permanently, thereby rendering their previous references of limited availability as false advertising and deceptive marketing.
This type of unethical marketing does not occur all the time, because class-action lawsuits and negative publicity would put companies out-of-business. I guarantee, many former customers of PWE will never purchase their products again because of this single incident.
Again, I ask for one other example. Please provide.
You could have at least gave me something that required me to think.
One example? Easy. Taco Bell and their Doritos Tacos. When they were released, they were a "limited-time only" product. However, based on the success of that taco (It literally turned the company's financials around), they decided to not only keep it around permanently, but also add a second related taco to their menu. You will probably split hairs and say they didn't rename it and THEN keep selling it, but there's your example. And there are many, many more in just about every market imaginable.
And, if we're going to throw around business credentials, I work as a manager at a PR/marketing firm, so I do have a good bit of insight about how companies market their product. The "limited-time only" and/or "exclusive" tags are nothing more than marketing-speak designed to influence consumers to make more rapid buying decisions.
You could have at least gave me something that required me to think.
One example? Easy. Taco Bell and their Doritos Tacos. When they were released, they were a "limited-time only" product. However, based on the success of that taco (It literally turned the company's financials around), they decided to not only keep it around permanently, but also add a second related taco to their menu. You will probably split hairs and say they didn't rename it and THEN keep selling it, but there's your example. And there are many, many more in just about every market imaginable.
And, if we're going to throw around business credentials, I work as a manager at a PR/marketing firm, so I do have a good bit of insight about how companies market their product. The "limited-time only" and/or "exclusive" tags are nothing more than marketing-speak designed to influence consumers to make more rapid buying decisions.
Still irrelevant, as we are talking about this company. "The other kids are doing it" is not a valid excuse to being unethical or shady or being involved in false advertising, and not a reason we should stand for it, accept it.
Try again. And continue to defend them, by all means.
Still irrelevant, as we are talking about this company. "The other kids are doing it" is not a valid excuse to being unethical or shady or being involved in false advertising, and not a reason we should stand for it, accept it.
Try again. And continue to defend them, by all means.
It's not irrelevant to respond to a question/request of someone else. Move along...
I was not seeking to excuse PWE in my explanation I was merely explaining things from their point of view, I believe it is important to see things from both sides if you wish to have a debate on an issue and to avoid personalising something which is not in any way a personal issue.
To you gaming may be a passion or merely a pass time, but make no mistake to PWE it is a business, they make these games because it is a good return on the investment, if it was not a good return they would not make them and that is the bottom line. This game is paying their bills and at least in part funding their lifestyles. Understanding this make their actions easier to understand and less easy to vilify. Once again I do not condone such actions but I understand the motivation, I'm afraid you will see more of this sort of thing as integrity is for many a poor substitute for income. You can complain on the forums all you like, this has no effect on the bottom line, in fact it is the opposite, by posting in the forums you show your interest in the game and continued participation.
Well, this point can be made to understand and sympathise with alot of things in life. Its fairly general, something to always keep in mind. And its very beneficial; to an extent. Does it really matter here tho? No. Is it irrelevant, even? Yes.
What they did was wrong. Its that simple. It was wrong. Even if they were all starving children huddled up in a hut in a poor village, this does not lessen the wrongness. It was simply wrong. And PWE is not a bunch of starving kids.
That "the other kids are doing it!" is not a valid excuse either, or even relevant to their defense. Wrong is wrong.
And spreading this information in a forum also sparks debates, wich do promote change, if only in the customers; they leave, have left, are leaving, voting with their wallets, and this do have an effect besides "showing interest by posting on the forum".
It's not irrelevant to respond to a question/request of someone else. Move along...
You clearly really didn't understand my fairly simple use of english, so I will move along, before this ends up in a petty fight. We must always try to rise above such things, don't we?
You clearly really didn't understand my fairly simple use of english, so I will move along, before this ends up in a petty fight. We must always try to rise above such things, don't we?
And, you clearly couldn't comprehend that I was responding to someone (other than you) that asked me to do something. Must you quote everything someone says (regardless of whether it relates to something you said) to try to defend/restate your points?
I'm surprised that anyone truly expected the packs to be exclusive to such an extent. For one, it can be expected that at least some, if not all features of the pack would eventually be available in some other form (whether by free expansion or by individual purchase).
Item shop marketing in MMOs isn't that different from RL marketing in some ways. "Limited edition" items usually offer extras you can get elsewhere or are simply cosmetically different from the standard editions; urgent call-to-action sales are often relaunched the following season or even the following week, but with a different item focus; and once in a while, the promotion truly is unique (or at the very least very rare).
Will they release Drow? Surely. Will we be able to purchase the armored spider mount separately at some point? Wouldn't rule it out, but can't say. Will players ever get to purchase the Hero of the North title again? Probably not. Will they continue to release high-ticket bundled promos? Absolutely
I've learned long ago when something is described as perpetually exclusive when it relates to MMOs that it is neither perpetual nor exclusive in any real sense. Something always comes out that is very similar if not exactly the same over time. This particular 'over time' is a bit shorter than the usual, I suppose, but in the end what difference does that make.
And, you clearly couldn't comprehend that I was responding to someone (other than you) that asked me to do something. Must you quote everything someone says (regardless of whether it relates to something you said) to try to defend/restate your points?
Yes I did, actually, I just added my thoughts regarding what you wrote. I do believe Im allowed to? I'm well capable of reading more than one poster's posts here. Impressive, I know. Try again.
And no, I don't have to, i mustn't, but sometimes I simply want to, for various reasons often changing in nature depending on the post, it's subject or poster. Common forum practice. Does it bother you? This was not my intention. I just wrote how I felt and thought on a forum about something that was being discussed, while also Quoting the post I was directing mine at, to avoid any confusion or the like. Crazy, I know. Try again?
The thing that is wrong.... is selling you something, claiming its contents to be exclusive, and the purchase of said content only being available for a limited time...... (still with me, slugger?) ... even urging us to "Buy before it's too late!"....... then..... completely revoking this deal...... by starting new sales of the very nearly exact same thing, apart from the name of the pack, and a title.
If you don't see anything shady or wrong with that... I really can't help you.
It's not wrong. It's business, and a fairly standard element of MMO business at that.
If you don't understand that something that is very nearly the same isn't exactly the same, your aren't going to do well understanding business practices in general. Replacing something with something very similar, to make it 'new', is done on a annual basis by a great many companies, and more frequently by others.
Also, exclusivity does not imply perpetually exclusive in business. There are many business arrangements where someone has exclusive rights to something, or some element of something, for a period of time, for example. This is also very common in MMOs.
So, slugger, it is you that missed the boat on this one.
Yes I did, actually, I just added my thoughts regarding what you wrote. I do believe Im allowed to? I'm well capable of reading more than one poster's posts here. Impressive, I know. Try again.
And no, I don't have to, i mustn't, but sometimes I simply want to, for various reasons often changing in nature depending on the post, it's subject or poster. Common forum practice. Does it bother you? This was not my intention. I just wrote how I felt and thought on a forum about something that was being discussed, while also Quoting the post I was directing mine at, to avoid any confusion or the like. Crazy, I know. Try again?
You're falling behind. There are two posts above that you haven't quoted in order to re-post the same argument for the umpteenth time.
It's not wrong. It's business, and a fairly standard element of MMO business at that.
If you don't understand that something that is very nearly the same isn't exactly the same, your aren't going to do well understanding business practices in general. Replacing something with something very similar, to make it 'new', is done on a annual basis by a great many companies, and more frequently by others.
Also, exclusivity does not imply perpetually exclusive in business. There are many business arrangements where someone has exclusive rights to something, or some element of something, for a period of time, for example. This is also very common in MMOs.
So, slugger, it is you that missed the boat on this one.
Finally, someone who gets it. And, it's not just MMOs that use this model. It's quite simple: Find a model that works, tweak/refresh it regularly in order to keep consumers interested, and profit.
You're falling behind. There are two posts above that you haven't quoted in order to re-post the same argument for the umpteenth time.
It's funny how you do the same thing,regarding requoting. Now, was there anything else, or do you want to continue this petty argument, or just get back to topic? If not, I'm gonna leave this, since it's not very productive.
It's funny how you do the same thing,regarding requoting. Now, was there anything else, or do you want to continue this petty argument, or just get back to topic? If not, I'm gonna leave this, since it's not very productive.
Not true. I'm only requoting you, instead of everyone else in the thread (like you do). And, of course, you're going to leave, now that the flaws have been exposed in your argument, and you are in a situation where not everyone is going to agree with you.
It's not wrong. It's business, and a fairly standard element of MMO business at that.
If you don't understand that something that is very nearly the same isn't exactly the same, your aren't going to do well understanding business practices in general. Replacing something with something very similar, to make it 'new', is done on a annual basis by a great many companies, and more frequently by others.
Also, exclusivity does not imply perpetually exclusive in business. There are many business arrangements where someone has exclusive rights to something, or some element of something, for a period of time, for example. This is also very common in MMOs.
So, slugger, it is you that missed the boat on this one.
I think it is wrong. Shady buisiness. Gives companies bad reputation (like PWE has suffered).
And my issue with this was the claimed perpetual exclusivity being revoked (in such short time at that), going back on a deal, and how people have reacted to it. And they have reacted. I voiced concerns regarding this company, this instance and this event, not others buisiness in other (or the same) area.
There are lines people draw, or companies draw. Doing something like this I havent seen to be "very common" in MMOs, actually.
I (and as evident, others) just aren't okay with this. Simple as that. It doesn't matter if other companies are doing it/getting away with it. It doesnt matter if you preach it. I, we, simply don't like it, and voice it. I do believe we're allowed to.
Well gosh darnit, champ, maybe Im just on another boat than you.
Not true. I'm only requoting you, instead of everyone else in the thread (like you do). And, of course, you're going to leave, now that the flaws have been exposed in your argument, and you are in a situation where not everyone is going to agree with you.
Sigh. I primarily meant you simply requoted alot, but you also requoted wolfrat and knight in the 2 pages or so that youve been active here. Try again?
And sorry to not stroke your ego, but Im leaving this discussion (with you) as it doesn't seem to be very constructive or rewarding for either of us, but mostly a pissing contest that just resort to petty insults. Ask yourself; what have we accomplished in the last posts, besides bicker and disagree but without real gain? You can try to troll and bait me as "my flaws have been exposed" or whatever you want, Ive said my piece time and time again, and if you don't understand it I dont think I can help you - and I dont feel like derailing this thread for our personal internet warrior fights any longer. Doing so also tends to lock threads, wich would effect every post in here.
Do you understand now? Or are you going to keep being childish and "call me out"? It's very easy to PM me; if you honestly want a real discussion you would, instead of further derailing this thread. Or you can prove my point by continuing with this behavior of trying to bait me. Your call
In your case, they probably don't want to respond to the faux outrage from someone who didn't buy a founder's pack and has no reason to be that upset about it (seeing that you admitted you didn't buy a pack earlier in this thread).
As far as the arguments in this thread go, companies do this all the time with limited/special editions of their products. As someone pointed out, if you were expected them not to sell the items in the pack in some form or other in the future when you bought it, then you aren't all that savvy about how businesses operate.
Its not a personal discussion of whether or not a person bought the founder pack. They are still just as able to observe the behavior regarding altering the exclusivity of a deal by changing the samentics only, and will base their decisions in part on whether or not to give this company money on that type of observed behavior.
The fact that other companies engage in that type of behavior doesnt make it correct. In fact, some customers of this company likely had bad experiences with the same exact behavior with another company, which is why they do not like seeing that behavior here. It is likely that this behavior added into the reason why some customers no longer play those other games in the first place.
Comments
PWE claimed the Founder's Pack contained exclusive items that were available only for a limited time, called the Founder's Program, that would end (that date kept changing), and after said date these Founder Packs would no longer be available for sale.
Simply removing the title 'Founder' is not sufficient to satisfy the earlier claims of exclusive and limited availability of in-game items. The title 'Founder' is not an in-game item. PWE used deceptive marketing.
No one would have paid $200 or $60 for the title 'Founder'. People were not supposed to be able to purchase the in-game items, such as Spider mounts, or Dire Wolves, or the special Drow race, ever again once the Founder program ended. If PWE had said, "These packs will always be available, but if you get them before Live Launch Day you will get a 'Founder' title" that statement would have been 100% honest, and I would not have bought my $60 Founder pack.
I would have played the game more, seen that it was not worth spending $60 on, and never purchased a pack. When I bought my pack on May 6th, 2013, this very website had a banner text ad on top of every page which read, "Founder's Program ends May 9th". That date was the 100% reason I bought the pack with the Dire Wolf on May 6th. If it had said, "Buy a pack now to get the Founder title; Dire Wolf will always be available for purchase" I would not have bought one.
That same week the date was changed to May 30th. Later in May the date was changed to 'soon'. Then any reference to the Founder Program ever ending was removed entirely. Now the Founder Packs and all the in-game items they contain are available in perpetuity. Therefore, PWE advertising and selling these in-game item packs as exclusive and limited availability was false advertising.
PWE is a company of liars and crooks.
This. Exactly this. Well put, and while it should be obvious to everyone it seems it isn't - a rather scary thought.
Corporate was prob saying. "We didn't sell as many as we thought we were," Employee1. Employee2, "Well if they are still selling leave them up, we don't want to offend new buyers and we could use the money." Employee3, "But wont they be offended because it was, you know, a time limit... and I did tell you all to sell them for less so you would sell more..."
*cricket cricket cricket*
Sorry, I know its pedantic but this annoys me a lot. Its couldn't care less and not could care less.
Could care less means you could care less if you want to but your level of caring is stagnant for now.
Couldn't care less on the other hand, means you are finished caring about the issue at hand and therefore you have reached the pinnacle of caring.
Source: ex carebear
As for the founders pack it seems to me to be highly immoral to sell something at such a high price and claim that it is exclusive, when its clearly not.
In your case, they probably don't want to respond to the faux outrage from someone who didn't buy a founder's pack and has no reason to be that upset about it (seeing that you admitted you didn't buy a pack earlier in this thread).
As far as the arguments in this thread go, companies do this all the time with limited/special editions of their products. As someone pointed out, if you were expected them not to sell the items in the pack in some form or other in the future when you bought it, then you aren't all that savvy about how businesses operate.
I've talked to them in several ways, both kind and more demanding, on several sites, both telling them and not telling them that I'm not a Founder - and guess what? It doesn't matter if Im not a Founder and I do have a reason to be upset about how they treat their customers, as, guess what; I am one. I am one of their customers, paying at that. The policy or ethics (or lack thereof) concerns me, not only Founders have some right to be concerned about the appearent shadiness of a company they're investing in or buying from.
Let that sink in abit, ponder, and come back with your new insights regarding how you just failed in your attempt to simply get a rise out of me, internet hero.
It doesnt matter what other companies do all the time with limited/special edition products. We are talking about THIS company. If someone "falls for it", meaning they buy in trust and good faith on the foundation of the deal this company offered and outlined to be one way, only to then revoke and go against the earlier offer or deal, you honestly try to blame the customers who bought from them...? Seriously?
"All the other kids are doing it" is not a valid excuse for a behaviour this ****ty from a company, sorry. Again; Try again, or back to your bridge.
'Some form or another' I could understand. They removed the 'Founder' title. All the items in each pack were supposed to be exclusive to that pack, and available for a limited time--not just the 'Founder' title. Had PWE been honest and said, 'Only the Founder title is exclusive', I would not have paid $60 for a Founder title.
When they originally released these Founders Packs, they implied they would be gone when the first beta weekend occurred. Then they said when Open Beta began. Then they said May 9th. Then they said May 30th. Then they said 'soon'. Now, they finally admit 'never', and that the items are not exclusive, which is false advertising and deceptive marketing.
I am sorry; I cannot think of a single other experience as a consumer in my life where a company called something 'exclusive' and both stated and implied that the item would be available for a limited time, even providing concrete dates, and then repeatedly changed those dates, and then just sold the exact same items permanently in their store, thus rendering their earlier statements of 'exclusivity' and 'limited edition' complete falsehoods.
I work in a multi-billion dollar global investment bank, so I consider myself 'business savvy'.
Please provide one other actual occurrence of a company that did this same false advertising of exclusive, limited edition products that they then immediately renamed and sold permanently, thereby rendering their previous references of limited availability as false advertising and deceptive marketing.
This type of unethical marketing does not occur all the time, because class-action lawsuits and negative publicity would put companies out-of-business. I guarantee, many former customers of PWE will never purchase their products again because of this single incident.
Again, I ask for one other example. Please provide.
I was not seeking to excuse PWE in my explanation I was merely explaining things from their point of view, I believe it is important to see things from both sides if you wish to have a debate on an issue and to avoid personalising something which is not in any way a personal issue.
To you gaming may be a passion or merely a pass time, but make no mistake to PWE it is a business, they make these games because it is a good return on the investment, if it was not a good return they would not make them and that is the bottom line. This game is paying their bills and at least in part funding their lifestyles. Understanding this make their actions easier to understand and less easy to vilify. Once again I do not condone such actions but I understand the motivation, I'm afraid you will see more of this sort of thing as integrity is for many a poor substitute for income. You can complain on the forums all you like, this has no effect on the bottom line, in fact it is the opposite, by posting in the forums you show your interest in the game and continued participation.
You could have at least gave me something that required me to think.
One example? Easy. Taco Bell and their Doritos Tacos. When they were released, they were a "limited-time only" product. However, based on the success of that taco (It literally turned the company's financials around), they decided to not only keep it around permanently, but also add a second related taco to their menu. You will probably split hairs and say they didn't rename it and THEN keep selling it, but there's your example. And there are many, many more in just about every market imaginable.
And, if we're going to throw around business credentials, I work as a manager at a PR/marketing firm, so I do have a good bit of insight about how companies market their product. The "limited-time only" and/or "exclusive" tags are nothing more than marketing-speak designed to influence consumers to make more rapid buying decisions.
Still irrelevant, as we are talking about this company. "The other kids are doing it" is not a valid excuse to being unethical or shady or being involved in false advertising, and not a reason we should stand for it, accept it.
Try again. And continue to defend them, by all means.
It's not irrelevant to respond to a question/request of someone else. Move along...
Well, this point can be made to understand and sympathise with alot of things in life. Its fairly general, something to always keep in mind. And its very beneficial; to an extent. Does it really matter here tho? No. Is it irrelevant, even? Yes.
What they did was wrong. Its that simple. It was wrong. Even if they were all starving children huddled up in a hut in a poor village, this does not lessen the wrongness. It was simply wrong. And PWE is not a bunch of starving kids.
That "the other kids are doing it!" is not a valid excuse either, or even relevant to their defense. Wrong is wrong.
And spreading this information in a forum also sparks debates, wich do promote change, if only in the customers; they leave, have left, are leaving, voting with their wallets, and this do have an effect besides "showing interest by posting on the forum".
You clearly really didn't understand my fairly simple use of english, so I will move along, before this ends up in a petty fight. We must always try to rise above such things, don't we?
And, you clearly couldn't comprehend that I was responding to someone (other than you) that asked me to do something. Must you quote everything someone says (regardless of whether it relates to something you said) to try to defend/restate your points?
I've learned long ago when something is described as perpetually exclusive when it relates to MMOs that it is neither perpetual nor exclusive in any real sense. Something always comes out that is very similar if not exactly the same over time. This particular 'over time' is a bit shorter than the usual, I suppose, but in the end what difference does that make.
Touchdown!
I would prob buy one if i had the money. its a big help to get to top.
Yes I did, actually, I just added my thoughts regarding what you wrote. I do believe Im allowed to? I'm well capable of reading more than one poster's posts here. Impressive, I know.
And no, I don't have to, i mustn't, but sometimes I simply want to, for various reasons often changing in nature depending on the post, it's subject or poster. Common forum practice. Does it bother you?
It's not wrong. It's business, and a fairly standard element of MMO business at that.
If you don't understand that something that is very nearly the same isn't exactly the same, your aren't going to do well understanding business practices in general. Replacing something with something very similar, to make it 'new', is done on a annual basis by a great many companies, and more frequently by others.
Also, exclusivity does not imply perpetually exclusive in business. There are many business arrangements where someone has exclusive rights to something, or some element of something, for a period of time, for example. This is also very common in MMOs.
So, slugger, it is you that missed the boat on this one.
You're falling behind. There are two posts above that you haven't quoted in order to re-post the same argument for the umpteenth time.
Finally, someone who gets it. And, it's not just MMOs that use this model. It's quite simple: Find a model that works, tweak/refresh it regularly in order to keep consumers interested, and profit.
It's funny how you do the same thing,regarding requoting.
Not true. I'm only requoting you, instead of everyone else in the thread (like you do). And, of course, you're going to leave, now that the flaws have been exposed in your argument, and you are in a situation where not everyone is going to agree with you.
I think it is wrong. Shady buisiness. Gives companies bad reputation (like PWE has suffered).
And my issue with this was the claimed perpetual exclusivity being revoked (in such short time at that), going back on a deal, and how people have reacted to it. And they have reacted. I voiced concerns regarding this company, this instance and this event, not others buisiness in other (or the same) area.
There are lines people draw, or companies draw. Doing something like this I havent seen to be "very common" in MMOs, actually.
I (and as evident, others) just aren't okay with this. Simple as that. It doesn't matter if other companies are doing it/getting away with it. It doesnt matter if you preach it. I, we, simply don't like it, and voice it. I do believe we're allowed to.
Well gosh darnit, champ, maybe Im just on another boat than you.
Sigh. I primarily meant you simply requoted alot, but you also requoted wolfrat and knight in the 2 pages or so that youve been active here. Try again?
And sorry to not stroke your ego, but Im leaving this discussion (with you) as it doesn't seem to be very constructive or rewarding for either of us, but mostly a pissing contest that just resort to petty insults. Ask yourself; what have we accomplished in the last posts, besides bicker and disagree but without real gain? You can try to troll and bait me as "my flaws have been exposed" or whatever you want, Ive said my piece time and time again, and if you don't understand it I dont think I can help you - and I dont feel like derailing this thread for our personal internet warrior fights any longer. Doing so also tends to lock threads, wich would effect every post in here.
Do you understand now? Or are you going to keep being childish and "call me out"? It's very easy to PM me; if you honestly want a real discussion you would, instead of further derailing this thread. Or you can prove my point by continuing with this behavior of trying to bait me. Your call
Its not a personal discussion of whether or not a person bought the founder pack. They are still just as able to observe the behavior regarding altering the exclusivity of a deal by changing the samentics only, and will base their decisions in part on whether or not to give this company money on that type of observed behavior.
The fact that other companies engage in that type of behavior doesnt make it correct. In fact, some customers of this company likely had bad experiences with the same exact behavior with another company, which is why they do not like seeing that behavior here. It is likely that this behavior added into the reason why some customers no longer play those other games in the first place.