So this just doesn't work if you didn't roll a high enough Int value? Even with all the listed gear and all rank 8s I cannot maintain permanent stealth. I have 16Int after a respec into it but I rolled for str and dex a month ago so I'm just out of luck.
It's probably less than a second that bait and switch just isn't up in time. maybe all 9s would do it but it would sure be nice if I could just respec my ability rolls
So this just doesn't work if you didn't roll a high enough Int value? Even with all the listed gear and all rank 8s I cannot maintain permanent stealth. I have 16Int after a respec into it but I rolled for str and dex a month ago so I'm just out of luck.
It's probably less than a second that bait and switch just isn't up in time. maybe all 9s would do it but it would sure be nice if I could just respec my ability rolls
I've been doing some testing. If you use Gloaming Cut + Sneaky Stabber (10% Stealth Refill every hit), you don't need INT or Recovery as long as your attacking and dodge rolling to refill stealth lol... however that attack is slow and you'll have to use it carefully. If you dont want to use Gloaming Cut and use your current set up, you can still perform somewhat of a perma-stealth but you'll be off by a second I believe with the Bait and Switch still being on CD.
How much recharge speed do you have? I can match the same recharge speed of yours and test it out myself
At work but it's about 2400 ish I think. Its pretty much ticking down the last second of bait and switch while I'm spamming the button and just doesn't quite get it. I can try gloaming cut but it's so bad and risky going in for melee. I was trying using impossible to catch in between bait and shadow strike just to kill a couple seconds. it works and if I get caught I can always get away but it's a total zero damage build.
edit. recharge is about 25% if I remember right. I'll check later
At work but it's about 2400 ish I think. Its pretty much ticking down the last second of bait and switch while I'm spamming the button and just doesn't quite get it. I can try gloaming cut but it's so bad and risky going in for melee. I was trying using impossible to catch in between bait and shadow strike just to kill a couple seconds. it works and if I get caught I can always get away but it's a total zero damage build.
edit. recharge is about 25% if I remember right. I'll check later
Using the rotation:
1. In Stealth
2. Bait and Switch
3. Shadow Strike
4. Bait and Switch
5. Shadow Strike
6. Bait and Switch *This is were it gets tricky, you'll barely make it on time, down to it's last millisecond to refill stealth
Maybe this helps some people to calculate their personally needed recharge speed.
Just some basic formular. Edit green areas with your needed values. Left part is if you know the original CD, right part if you want to know whats the orignal CD.
e.g.
/bind f1 gfxsetdefaultfov 80
/bind f2 gfxsetdefaultfov 65
/bind f5 killme
and similar.. button4 (mouse4), mbutton (middle mouse button), shift - whatever you want to use, some keys are not simple named, so either try to look them up with google/whatever or bind them ingame to sth you want and check the right key name at your ent_keybinds.txt
Shinis
Tong Lv86
Server: Jian [DE]
0
gregnineMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited June 2013
well, im not 60lvl, but 43 atm, and goin trough this setup...and i must say it works, even on lower lvls.
I'm not a dominant in pvp, (have like 18% recharge time reduction), but...i scored good, have matches with 11-15 kills and close or top score, and other tr 1v1 can't beat me, even on start 40 lvl,, and that was true prior this lvl.
Blah, i can take tr or two...they play dumb, killin my dummy...and i have lurkers with stealth almost all the time...longest dmg run was like 1 min or so in stealth, and 3 kills..
And...
Yesterday i just soloed rest of 40% hp noss, Wolf den dungeon, when my cleric after sec death(and third attempt in total to beat that boss) has logout, and leave me with CW, who died at 45% or so...was hard, but i finished him, at 30% i finished archers, 1 lesser werewolf, and dungeon was complete...SO it works
Can't wait to hit 60lvl
Mindflayer tr/cw/gwf
0
borgued3Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 150Bounty Hunter
I've been doing some testing. If you use Gloaming Cut + Sneaky Stabber (10% Stealth Refill every hit), you don't need INT or Recovery as long as your attacking and dodge rolling to refill stealth lol... however that attack is slow and you'll have to use it carefully. If you dont want to use Gloaming Cut and use your current set up, you can still perform somewhat of a perma-stealth but you'll be off by a second I believe with the Bait and Switch still being on CD.
How much recharge speed do you have? I can match the same recharge speed of yours and test it out myself
I think a better way to go would be to avoid gloaming cut since as you said it is risky and too slow and you will end up leveling another feat to 5 just for the sake of it to actually be of use (with no feat it will only recover stealth on last hit assuming it killed the target). I think a better investiment is dazzling blades (i believe thats the name) from executioner tree since it gives a chance for your at-wills to recover 1 sec for your encounter powers, thus making it easier to have bait and switch or shadow strike ready (top chance is 5% but i think you can pull 1 or 2 out of the 12 CoS or risky sly flourish on targets getting another player), and wont require another at-will power that i dont consider that good to be leveled (i noticed on your pve video that you had impossible to catch leveled rather than gleaming, and i would say it is a better move since the core at wills will be cloud of steel and sly flourish).
Hey, sorry about the late reply (been working on a new TR build, leveling up a new rogue)
Gloaming Cut is definitely risky and slow, the fact that you'll need to be within it's range and the animation speed is slow may allow the enemy to get a glimpse of your location. However, I've been trying and testing it out on both of my rogues and I would like to say that, it hits pretty **** hard lol, normal hits is about 3-7K (depending on criticals) and with lurkers assault can do 10K per hit, I never had any problems with the enemies finding out my location when using this skill, so far... and yeah, you'll have to sacarfic 5 feats from some where for Sneaky Stabber (preferentially from Expert Sneak).
Dazzling Blades: Your At-Will powers have a 1/2/3/4/5% chance to reduce the cooldown on recharging Encounter powers by 1 second.
During the creation of the Perma-Stealth build, I've been testing and figuring out the best way to reduce Cooldowns so that B&S and SS would be ready on time to alternate between them. I wasn't a big fan of Dazzling Blades, at most I'd get a 1 second off on encounters with a full 12 CoS however, it didn't suit the build properly for example...
1. In Stealth
2. Use all 12 CoS
3. Refill Bait and Switch (now on CD)
4. I am now limited on attacks, meaning Dazzling Blades wont get a chance to proc, additionally it has an extremely low proc chance.
5. Now instead of waiting on valuable seconds for CoS, your forced to go into melee in hopes of get Dazzling Blade to proc.
In that scenario, I think your better off with Gloaming Cut then Dazzling Blade if your low on Recharge Speed.
About the PvE video, my Powers has been changing because I've been constantly testing things out for new and improved builds.
Mocking Knave: Sly Flourish and Cloud of Steel deal 2/4/6/8/10% more damage. Additionally, Cloud of Steel’s damage bonus per stack is increased by .5/1/1.5/2/2.5%.
The core At-Wills is Sly Flourish and Cloud of Steel making Mocking Knave and must have. But personally to me, what makes this a must have is the bonus damage per stack for CoS. I wouldn't mind changing Sly Flourish for something else, with Mocking Knave my Sly Flourish damage only increases by about 100.
senseijohnMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 90
edited June 2013
So, I just hit 60 about an hour before takedown today. I had to miss the event to do it, but I wanted this build ready to go when live came up.
Here's my 2 cents:
Event with minimum gear, I was able to stay in stealth for nearly entire solo fights. What killed me (literally some times) was when there where swarms of mobs. I'd kill most of them, but then finally I'd pop out of stealth and before I could hit my Shadow Strike, I'd have mulitple hits on me - and at level 59, that hurts alot - especially flayers and devourers jumped up on me.
Overall... this was both easier and more difficult to level compared to my executioner builds (I have 3). You need to be more calculating and more sneaky in PVE solo... but it's good training for PvP since you will have to be more calculating and more sneaky ALL the time.
Now it's just a matter of gear.
The Silver enchantments will probably have to wait a bit. So I won't be perma stealth for a while.
Thanks for all of hardwork you put into this guide. I know you don't get as many kudos as you should... so here's KUDOS x 2!
I Really appreciate all this work on this guide . Also the fun thing even if this is a PvP specc mostly.. ur able to Clear so much Dungeons (normals) solo.. its unbelievable. I just hope with the new patch i can still farm Karrandux first and second boss
0
senseijohnMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 90
edited June 2013
Quick question.... what armor and weapon enchantments would you recommend on a budget?
Quick question.... what armor and weapon enchantments would you recommend on a budget?
I'd recommend the armor/weapon enchantments that are listed in the guide. For weapon just use a Bilethorn and for armor use a lesser Soulforge which is about 270K AD I think, if thats too expensive, don't bother with an armor enchantment because you'll rarely get hit
Hey, sorry about the late reply (been working on a new TR build, leveling up a new rogue)
Gloaming Cut is definitely risky and slow, the fact that you'll need to be within it's range and the animation speed is slow may allow the enemy to get a glimpse of your location. However, I've been trying and testing it out on both of my rogues and I would like to say that, it hits pretty **** hard lol, normal hits is about 3-7K (depending on criticals) and with lurkers assault can do 10K per hit, I never had any problems with the enemies finding out my location when using this skill, so far... and yeah, you'll have to sacarfic 5 feats from some where for Sneaky Stabber (preferentially from Expert Sneak).
Dazzling Blades: Your At-Will powers have a 1/2/3/4/5% chance to reduce the cooldown on recharging Encounter powers by 1 second.
During the creation of the Perma-Stealth build, I've been testing and figuring out the best way to reduce Cooldowns so that B&S and SS would be ready on time to alternate between them. I wasn't a big fan of Dazzling Blades, at most I'd get a 1 second off on encounters with a full 12 CoS however, it didn't suit the build properly for example...
1. In Stealth
2. Use all 12 CoS
3. Refill Bait and Switch (now on CD)
4. I am now limited on attacks, meaning Dazzling Blades wont get a chance to proc, additionally it has an extremely low proc chance.
5. Now instead of waiting on valuable seconds for CoS, your forced to go into melee in hopes of get Dazzling Blade to proc.
In that scenario, I think your better off with Gloaming Cut then Dazzling Blade if your low on Recharge Speed.
About the PvE video, my Powers has been changing because I've been constantly testing things out for new and improved builds.
Mocking Knave: Sly Flourish and Cloud of Steel deal 2/4/6/8/10% more damage. Additionally, Cloud of Steel’s damage bonus per stack is increased by .5/1/1.5/2/2.5%.
The core At-Wills is Sly Flourish and Cloud of Steel making Mocking Knave and must have. But personally to me, what makes this a must have is the bonus damage per stack for CoS. I wouldn't mind changing Sly Flourish for something else, with Mocking Knave my Sly Flourish damage only increases by about 100.
NP, theod thing is that a reply came .
1 more question for now, concerning expert sneak, the damage reduction that comes with it for enemies i am attacking, is it flat 5% or does it stack an x number of times. For me this is an important factor because on my version of the build i would likelly burn this feat for sneaky staber for gleaming (your view on it made me want to try the skill =P), however if the damage reduction keeps stacking i would rather expert sneak for a decent debuff on enemies attacking my allies
If I can remember its just a flat 5% debuff, no stacks. I'd test it again to double check but don't feel like respecing one of my rogues since I recently done so. But I'm pretty sure it's just the flat 5% because it would have said stacks in description
Alright, I've done some testing with Gloaming Cut, played a bunch of PvP matches to get a good feel of it's effectiveness.
First off, here are some screen shots
With Gloaming Cut and a couple of feat changes, you can definitely still do work for your team. Did a fair amount of capping and defending, additionally with 26 kills and 1 death. The 1 death was because of Gloaming Cuts slow animation speed and was a bit too close to the CW and was choked + stunned by GWF (1v2 situation).
This was a PuG vs PuG, both teams did good, all the players seemed skilled so it was an even match, in fact the other team was winning in score for majority of the match and we just flipped the score at the 20min mark.
Here are the stats I used for testing. Ability Score was focused on CON and DEX. 16 INT and recovery gave me 21% Recharge Speed and I replaced 3 Silverys for Tene's (was also testing tene).
Pros with Gloaming Cut
It hits hard, I've been seeing 2.5K-3K damage non-critical, 4-6K criticals (depending on enemies defense)
Doesn't rely on High Recharge Speed
Bilethorn Poison ticks for higher damage
You can use it at 20'range, don't think enemies can see you
Cons with Gloaming Cut
Really slow animation speed
You've got to get enough hits on the enemy to make up for the low recharge speed, or you'll break the perma-stealth
20'range is good but if you take a step forward, enemies may see you or if they step close enough to you, will reveal yourself and with the slow animation speed it's risky. In competitive play, it will just be even harder to use, easily dodge if sighted.
I don't recommend it if your really new to TR's and stealth management, just cause I think you may die more often since you need to play more aggressive in melee
This is a great build, very very survivable. Sure you lack the very very strong dps, but honestly I've been in some Dungeons (level 20 so far) and I'm still ranked 1. I'll continue trying other dungeons to see if I continue to be up in high dps ranking.
Will you be updating your original post with the Gloaming Cut variation?
Nope, that build is finalized for the time being. Price range for equipment is cheap, play style is fairly easy, and it helps teach new rogue players on Cool down and stealth management, helps get familiar with dodging (dodging to refill stealth and dodge after every couple melee attacks, that should be routine), and play more strategic and safe. Once such routines become fluent to the player, I'm sure variations of the Perma-Stealth build will be alot easier to use. (Especially for my new PvP TR build coming soon, once I get her to 60)
What I hope for and plan for this new Variation is..
35K health
Lots of Critical hits
Lots of DMG procs
Lots of defense/deflection (tanky rogue type)
and ofcourse perma-stealth
play style will be more aggressive and damage dealing, but that's all concept and theorycrafting I'm going to have to test it all out before I start writing up a guide for it.
More health? Let me guess you're not putting points into the Action Advantage and putting points into the Toughness? Just curious. I'm doing that actually since you can gain action so many other ways very quickly.
correct
Toughness for 9% more health, also trying out Berserk Vitality for 2.5% of max hit points as temporary hit points when dealing combat advantage (20 sec CD, but you should have it on when ever its off CD since your perma-stealth), however Berserk Vitality doesn't seem to be working atm. Leveling a new rogue for +20% more health, will be using 3 Radiants in defense slots for +3K health as well then all offensive would be Tene's. It's an expensive build
Yeah, I'm re-rolling a new Rogue to test things out. I already have a half-orc with maximum STR and DEX, tried it out and hits hard, but it doesn't really matter what ability scores the rogue has, I'm just re-rolling for more CON for my tene's to deal over 1K damage.
Personally I don't think you should shoot for that roll because a lot, and I do mean a lot of people are crying about those Enhancements and wanting them to not stack.
Personally I don't think you should shoot for that roll because a lot, and I do mean a lot of people are crying about those Enhancements and wanting them to not stack.
And so it may just get nerfed, I see your point as it will be a waste of AD and time but I'll try it out either way since I like testing things out
senseijohnMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 90
edited June 2013
Wow... so... looking at the enhancements on Dragon and they are MUCH more than I'm seeing posted here.
I was able to get rank 7 silvery for all of my offensive slots... but I don't see how I will save up enough anytime soon to get the extra 10's to replace them to hit the 2400 mark. I'm hovering at 2370 recovery (bait at 19.3) or so. Of course... in dungeons.... with my ioun stone, I'm at 3200 recovery.
Comments
It's probably less than a second that bait and switch just isn't up in time. maybe all 9s would do it but it would sure be nice if I could just respec my ability rolls
I've been doing some testing. If you use Gloaming Cut + Sneaky Stabber (10% Stealth Refill every hit), you don't need INT or Recovery as long as your attacking and dodge rolling to refill stealth lol... however that attack is slow and you'll have to use it carefully. If you dont want to use Gloaming Cut and use your current set up, you can still perform somewhat of a perma-stealth but you'll be off by a second I believe with the Bait and Switch still being on CD.
How much recharge speed do you have? I can match the same recharge speed of yours and test it out myself
edit. recharge is about 25% if I remember right. I'll check later
Using the rotation:
1. In Stealth
2. Bait and Switch
3. Shadow Strike
4. Bait and Switch
5. Shadow Strike
6. Bait and Switch *This is were it gets tricky, you'll barely make it on time, down to it's last millisecond to refill stealth
Just some basic formular. Edit green areas with your needed values. Left part is if you know the original CD, right part if you want to know whats the orignal CD.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlaKqURoB2lGdFRWbFJJOFJYd0xKUEpKaHdGMjgwRHc#gid=0
Doesn't work with feats that reduce CD of encounters in general, but TRs didn't got that anyway.
e.g.
/bind f1 gfxsetdefaultfov 80
/bind f2 gfxsetdefaultfov 65
/bind f5 killme
and similar.. button4 (mouse4), mbutton (middle mouse button), shift - whatever you want to use, some keys are not simple named, so either try to look them up with google/whatever or bind them ingame to sth you want and check the right key name at your ent_keybinds.txt
I'm not a dominant in pvp, (have like 18% recharge time reduction), but...i scored good, have matches with 11-15 kills and close or top score, and other tr 1v1 can't beat me, even on start 40 lvl,, and that was true prior this lvl.
Blah, i can take tr or two...they play dumb, killin my dummy...and i have lurkers with stealth almost all the time...longest dmg run was like 1 min or so in stealth, and 3 kills..
And...
Yesterday i just soloed rest of 40% hp noss, Wolf den dungeon, when my cleric after sec death(and third attempt in total to beat that boss) has logout, and leave me with CW, who died at 45% or so...was hard, but i finished him, at 30% i finished archers, 1 lesser werewolf, and dungeon was complete...SO it works
Can't wait to hit 60lvl
I think a better way to go would be to avoid gloaming cut since as you said it is risky and too slow and you will end up leveling another feat to 5 just for the sake of it to actually be of use (with no feat it will only recover stealth on last hit assuming it killed the target). I think a better investiment is dazzling blades (i believe thats the name) from executioner tree since it gives a chance for your at-wills to recover 1 sec for your encounter powers, thus making it easier to have bait and switch or shadow strike ready (top chance is 5% but i think you can pull 1 or 2 out of the 12 CoS or risky sly flourish on targets getting another player), and wont require another at-will power that i dont consider that good to be leveled (i noticed on your pve video that you had impossible to catch leveled rather than gleaming, and i would say it is a better move since the core at wills will be cloud of steel and sly flourish).
But thats just my view, what do you think?
Gloaming Cut is definitely risky and slow, the fact that you'll need to be within it's range and the animation speed is slow may allow the enemy to get a glimpse of your location. However, I've been trying and testing it out on both of my rogues and I would like to say that, it hits pretty **** hard lol, normal hits is about 3-7K (depending on criticals) and with lurkers assault can do 10K per hit, I never had any problems with the enemies finding out my location when using this skill, so far... and yeah, you'll have to sacarfic 5 feats from some where for Sneaky Stabber (preferentially from Expert Sneak).
Dazzling Blades: Your At-Will powers have a 1/2/3/4/5% chance to reduce the cooldown on recharging Encounter powers by 1 second.
During the creation of the Perma-Stealth build, I've been testing and figuring out the best way to reduce Cooldowns so that B&S and SS would be ready on time to alternate between them. I wasn't a big fan of Dazzling Blades, at most I'd get a 1 second off on encounters with a full 12 CoS however, it didn't suit the build properly for example...
1. In Stealth
2. Use all 12 CoS
3. Refill Bait and Switch (now on CD)
4. I am now limited on attacks, meaning Dazzling Blades wont get a chance to proc, additionally it has an extremely low proc chance.
5. Now instead of waiting on valuable seconds for CoS, your forced to go into melee in hopes of get Dazzling Blade to proc.
In that scenario, I think your better off with Gloaming Cut then Dazzling Blade if your low on Recharge Speed.
About the PvE video, my Powers has been changing because I've been constantly testing things out for new and improved builds.
Mocking Knave: Sly Flourish and Cloud of Steel deal 2/4/6/8/10% more damage. Additionally, Cloud of Steel’s damage bonus per stack is increased by .5/1/1.5/2/2.5%.
The core At-Wills is Sly Flourish and Cloud of Steel making Mocking Knave and must have. But personally to me, what makes this a must have is the bonus damage per stack for CoS. I wouldn't mind changing Sly Flourish for something else, with Mocking Knave my Sly Flourish damage only increases by about 100.
Here's my 2 cents:
Event with minimum gear, I was able to stay in stealth for nearly entire solo fights. What killed me (literally some times) was when there where swarms of mobs. I'd kill most of them, but then finally I'd pop out of stealth and before I could hit my Shadow Strike, I'd have mulitple hits on me - and at level 59, that hurts alot - especially flayers and devourers jumped up on me.
Overall... this was both easier and more difficult to level compared to my executioner builds (I have 3). You need to be more calculating and more sneaky in PVE solo... but it's good training for PvP since you will have to be more calculating and more sneaky ALL the time.
Now it's just a matter of gear.
The Silver enchantments will probably have to wait a bit. So I won't be perma stealth for a while.
Thanks for all of hardwork you put into this guide. I know you don't get as many kudos as you should... so here's KUDOS x 2!
Bilethorn | Fiery i would say cause there kinda cheap.. at the lesser version's
I'd recommend the armor/weapon enchantments that are listed in the guide. For weapon just use a Bilethorn and for armor use a lesser Soulforge which is about 270K AD I think, if thats too expensive, don't bother with an armor enchantment because you'll rarely get hit
Gods Glory to the Heroes.
TR:Anirul Corrino@Fimconte
GF:Irulan Corrino@Fimconte
NP, theod thing is that a reply came
1 more question for now, concerning expert sneak, the damage reduction that comes with it for enemies i am attacking, is it flat 5% or does it stack an x number of times. For me this is an important factor because on my version of the build i would likelly burn this feat for sneaky staber for gleaming (your view on it made me want to try the skill =P), however if the damage reduction keeps stacking i would rather expert sneak for a decent debuff on enemies attacking my allies
First off, here are some screen shots
With Gloaming Cut and a couple of feat changes, you can definitely still do work for your team. Did a fair amount of capping and defending, additionally with 26 kills and 1 death. The 1 death was because of Gloaming Cuts slow animation speed and was a bit too close to the CW and was choked + stunned by GWF (1v2 situation).
This was a PuG vs PuG, both teams did good, all the players seemed skilled so it was an even match, in fact the other team was winning in score for majority of the match and we just flipped the score at the 20min mark.
Here are the stats I used for testing. Ability Score was focused on CON and DEX. 16 INT and recovery gave me 21% Recharge Speed and I replaced 3 Silverys for Tene's (was also testing tene).
Pros with Gloaming Cut
Cons with Gloaming Cut
Nope, that build is finalized for the time being. Price range for equipment is cheap, play style is fairly easy, and it helps teach new rogue players on Cool down and stealth management, helps get familiar with dodging (dodging to refill stealth and dodge after every couple melee attacks, that should be routine), and play more strategic and safe. Once such routines become fluent to the player, I'm sure variations of the Perma-Stealth build will be alot easier to use. (Especially for my new PvP TR build coming soon, once I get her to 60)
What I hope for and plan for this new Variation is..
play style will be more aggressive and damage dealing, but that's all concept and theorycrafting I'm going to have to test it all out before I start writing up a guide for it.
Toughness for 9% more health, also trying out Berserk Vitality for 2.5% of max hit points as temporary hit points when dealing combat advantage (20 sec CD, but you should have it on when ever its off CD since your perma-stealth), however Berserk Vitality doesn't seem to be working atm. Leveling a new rogue for +20% more health, will be using 3 Radiants in defense slots for +3K health as well then all offensive would be Tene's. It's an expensive build
'
and how many minimum recharge speed for his build? 20%?
I was able to get rank 7 silvery for all of my offensive slots... but I don't see how I will save up enough anytime soon to get the extra 10's to replace them to hit the 2400 mark. I'm hovering at 2370 recovery (bait at 19.3) or so. Of course... in dungeons.... with my ioun stone, I'm at 3200 recovery.
Still having a hard time keeping permastealth..