Wow... so... looking at the enhancements on Dragon and they are MUCH more than I'm seeing posted here.
I was able to get rank 7 silvery for all of my offensive slots... but I don't see how I will save up enough anytime soon to get the extra 10's to replace them to hit the 2400 mark. I'm hovering at 2370 recovery (bait at 19.3) or so. Of course... in dungeons.... with my ioun stone, I'm at 3200 recovery.
Still having a hard time keeping permastealth..
*Only dodge when Bait and Switch is on Cool Down.. Bait and Switch is tricky as you may be cutting it close to the very last millisecond.
With the rotation of Bait and Switch then Shadow Strike (continue rotation), you should be able to preform Perma-Stealth with 19.3 CD on B&S, the main problem I would guess is not dodge rolling, at full stamina you should be able to do 3 dodge rolls on the first Bait and Switch Cool Down.
do not spend too much money for the tenebrous, soon to be heavily nerfed. The tenebrous are too unbalanced and gamebreaking
Uriziel TR lev 60 Gear Rating 12400
Uriziel GF Gear Rating 14800
David Grave CW 10500 Gear Rating 6000 recovery(kripparian build)
Uriziem Monk Completionist 28 past life , DDO player since March 2006 (2006-2009 on Devourer server, 2009-2012 on Cannith server)
ex officer and founder of Ordo Draconis, DDO Italian Elite Guild, now on NEVERWINTER picture sharing
Why is the single lamest pvp build in gaming history the one with the most thorough and well designed presentation? 10 points for layout and presentation -10 points for lameness. Every time someone copies this ****tarded build a baby kitten dies.
Why is the single lamest pvp build in gaming history the one with the most thorough and well designed presentation? 10 points for layout and presentation -10 points for lameness. Every time someone copies this ****tarded build a baby kitten dies.
well, someone got his a$$ handed to him on a silver plate by this build it seems.
Unlike your proposal, this is very likelly the most well thought build the TR got so far (no offense to the other builds, they are good too ) precisely because it removes the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> mentality that a rogue's place is glued to the face of a warrior exchanging blows to see who hurts more, and places the class where it belongs, with carefull planing for maneuvers, good timing on his cds/stealth duration and knowing when is the right time to actually get close to the enemy and when to stay away on stealth.
And of course, the build on the other hand places the rogue on a delicate position because if he messes up the gameplay he is as good as dead, so it's scrub proof in a way that just copy and paste it won't do any good for the smartasses trying to be OP.
well, someone got his a$$ handed to him on a silver plate by this build it seems.
Unlike your proposal, this is very likelly the most well thought build the TR got so far (no offense to the other builds, they are good too ) precisely because it removes the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> mentality that a rogue's place is glued to the face of a warrior exchanging blows to see who hurts more, and places the class where it belongs, with carefull planing for maneuvers, good timing on his cds/stealth duration and knowing when is the right time to actually get close to the enemy and when to stay away on stealth.
And of course, the build on the other hand places the rogue on a delicate position because if he messes up the gameplay he is as good as dead, so it's scrub proof in a way that just copy and paste it won't do any good for the smartasses trying to be OP.
So back to ur dungeon troll.
Are you actually trying to defend this build?
Here's the factors you are not taking in to consideration. Firstly, you are assuming I am referring to a 1v1 fight vs a rogue of this type. Nay, that is not to which I refer. I am talking about the fact this guide is so thorough and exact that any idiot could properly copy it and while not every can just pull it off without a reroll and respec there are a growing number of people who are attempting this build despite the mere second or two of visibility they can't shave off. Have you yet been in a round with 3 or 4 of these yet? I'm guessing you haven't.
I have. What part of this don't you understand. The build is so successful with so little effort that it is being copied enmass. That means that it will continue to be copied more and more until it is finally nerfed as it should be. Meanwhile, it is damaging the games credibility in the pvp arena because a premade of all Perma invis trickster rogues is a sure victory pretty much every time.
Yesterday just before I came here to see if this build had been posted and causing me to post here I was in a round with not one, or two, or three but 4 near perma invisible trickster rogues in one round.. You may have some sort of defense vs 1 of them using LOS, and maybe a lucky AOE.. but no.. You have no defense vs 2 or more of them ganging up on you. There is no valid or logical course of action when being hit from 3 or 4 angles by the flying knives from different directions at once. Run one way and the knives stop they are smart enough to move away from you and let the other two or three continue wailing away.. that is a guaranteed death. The end of the round was just silly the single most ludicrous fight in pvp I've ever seen. I think we managed to kill one of the rogues once and killed the DC that they were teamed with a few times.. but let's face it we never even got a good look at who was attacking us the entire match.
The point being a coordinated team using voice and working together as a premade consisting of nothing but perma stealth rogues is for lack of a better term, game breaking as there is no actual defense or team config that works well against it.
Are you actually trying to defend this build? Really now are you that bad at pvp? hahaha I feel sorry for you.
The build is solid and it works exactly as a rogue should play roleplay wise. Each class has it's special ability for tab key, rogue's ability is stealth, i dont see whats wrong with a build which makes good use of it. The build is flawless? nope, some people know how to counter it, and considering it may kill the rogue if he messes up it makes it deppend heavily on how skillful the user is, which in my opinion is better than a build that people will just copy and paste and follow the rotation suggested.
Am i saying that rogues are wrong to go full dps nuking everything? Well if it works it has its merits, but nobody can argue that this build can bring more challenge to fight against than a rogue who will glue to you on stealth and then burn it with lashing blade/dazzing strike and then proceed to try to nuke you while he is perfectly visible to the rest of the enemy team to do something about it.
If you dont like the build just like your other friend above my previous post,fine, but this is a guide, so if you can't provide a decent feedback and will stick to "meh, the build is bad and you should feel bad", just serves to show that you shouldnt be posting on the forum. If you wanna criticize the build, do it in a polite way showing the flaws and how you would improve it rather than just angry rants because it is annoying to fight against.
Here's the factors you are not taking in to consideration. Firstly, you are assuming I am referring to a 1v1 fight vs a rogue of this type. Nay, that is not to which I refer. I am talking about the fact this guide is so thorough and exact that any idiot could properly copy it and while not every can just pull it off without a reroll and respec there are a growing number of people who are attempting this build despite the mere second or two of visibility they can't shave off. Have you yet been in a round with 3 or 4 of these yet? I'm guessing you haven't.
I have. What part of this don't you understand. The build is so successful with so little effort that it is being copied enmass. That means that it will continue to be copied more and more until it is finally nerfed as it should be. Meanwhile, it is damaging the games credibility in the pvp arena because a premade of all Perma invis trickster rogues is a sure victory pretty much every time.
Yesterday just before I came here to see if this build had been posted and causing me to post here I was in a round with not one, or two, or three but 4 near perma invisible trickster rogues in one round.. You may have some sort of defense vs 1 of them using LOS, and maybe a lucky AOE.. but no.. You have no defense vs 2 or more of them ganging up on you. There is no valid or logical course of action when being hit from 3 or 4 angles by the flying knives from different directions at once. Run one way and the knives stop they are smart enough to move away from you and let the other two or three continue wailing away.. that is a guaranteed death. The end of the round was just silly the single most ludicrous fight in pvp I've ever seen. I think we managed to kill one of the rogues once and killed the DC that they were teamed with a few times.. but let's face it we never even got a good look at who was attacking us the entire match.
The point being a coordinated team using voice and working together as a premade consisting of nothing but perma stealth rogues is for lack of a better term, game breaking as there is no actual defense or team config that works well against it.
now here i agree, thanks for your edit, it is unbalanced to have 2+ people using it on the same side, but the game has yet much more balance to be made and this build could use some reajustments to avoid this sort of situation, yet people coming here to insult it does not diminish the merit of the build, after all as you pointed out, it works.
A good way to "balance" things i believe would be to make a better arrangement on the pvp queue in order to limit the number of players that can play with the same class, like some sort of role picking before entering the queue along with a system that identifies the class and places the player on a queue where that class isnt abundant, but that my friend is a improvement to be done to the game in general, and it is not this build's fault, its the dev's fault for not balancing pvp properly so your complaint should be addressed on a different area, not just a rant on the guide of someone who took his time to perfect the build in his way.
You misunderstand my reason for posting here at all. You see I can only assume the OP posted this build for two reasons. 1 is initial claim to fame. Every pvper loves such. The second and what I am guessing at the reason it's so well documented is to get it nerfed asap. I can only assume that the OP also feels (although not admitted) that it is game breakingly bad to be allowed to exist so he painted a perfectly illustrated with diagrams way for the Developers to fix the problem. I am not insulting the OP. I gave him props on his work actually. I am however insulting all of the would be copy cats who use this build because they 1) didn't think of it 2) exploit it.
This is an exploit plain and simple. I am pretty sure the game developers never intended this to be possible and it was a bit of shortsightedness that allowed to to happen in the first place. Abusing game mechanics in a way they are not intended is the very definition of an exploit.
Having said that I came in to this thread assuming that everyone was of at least average cognitive abilities and thus could see the writing on the wall. Builds like this will become highly abused to the point of insanity and the eventual end result would be premades of nothing but it since any such premade stands no actual chance of losing.
The problem is premade teams can exist and there will never be a mechanic which states "Sorry you can't queue because you have more than 2x of a class in the team". That just won't happen. The build has to fixed as in totally removed from possibility by the developers or the eventuality I just detailed is pretty darned certain. This is not a whine post simply a call for rational thought regarding the issues at hand. The only way to balance is to remove it.
You misunderstand my reason for posting here at all. You see I can only assume the OP posted this build for two reasons. 1 is initial claim to fame. Every pvper loves such. The second and what I am guessing at the reason it's so well documented is to get it nerfed asap. I can only assume that the OP also feels (although not admitted) that it is game breakingly bad to be allowed to exist so he painted a perfectly illustrated with diagrams way for the Developers to fix the problem. I am not insulting the OP. I gave him props on his work actually. I am however insulting all of the would be copy cats who use this build because they 1) didn't think of it 2) exploit it.
This is an exploit plain and simple. I am pretty sure the game developers never intended this to be possible and it was a bit of shortsightedness that allowed to to happen in the first place. Abusing game mechanics in a way they are not intended is the very definition of an exploit.
Having said that I came in to this thread assuming that everyone was of at least average cognitive abilities and thus could see the writing on the wall. Builds like this will become highly abused to the point of insanity and the eventual end result would be premades of nothing but it since any such premade stands no actual chance of losing.
The problem is premade teams can exist and there will never be a mechanic which states "Sorry you can't queue because you have more than 2x of a class in the team". That just won't happen. The build has to fixed as in totally removed from possibility by the developers or the eventuality I just detailed is pretty darned certain. This is not a whine post simply a call for rational thought regarding the issues at hand. The only way to balance is to remove it.
or he posted it so fellow rogue players have a guide if they wish to build a rogue like that
You misunderstand my reason for posting here at all. You see I can only assume the OP posted this build for two reasons. 1 is initial claim to fame. Every pvper loves such. The second and what I am guessing at the reason it's so well documented is to get it nerfed asap. I can only assume that the OP also feels (although not admitted) that it is game breakingly bad to be allowed to exist so he painted a perfectly illustrated with diagrams way for the Developers to fix the problem. I am not insulting the OP. I gave him props on his work actually. I am however insulting all of the would be copy cats who use this build because they 1) didn't think of it 2) exploit it.
This is an exploit plain and simple. I am pretty sure the game developers never intended this to be possible and it was a bit of shortsightedness that allowed to to happen in the first place. Abusing game mechanics in a way they are not intended is the very definition of an exploit.
Having said that I came in to this thread assuming that everyone was of at least average cognitive abilities and thus could see the writing on the wall. Builds like this will become highly abused to the point of insanity and the eventual end result would be premades of nothing but it since any such premade stands no actual chance of losing.
The problem is premade teams can exist and there will never be a mechanic which states "Sorry you can't queue because you have more than 2x of a class in the team". That just won't happen. The build has to fixed as in totally removed from possibility by the developers or the eventuality I just detailed is pretty darned certain. This is not a whine post simply a call for rational thought regarding the issues at hand. The only way to balance is to remove it.
I'm going to ask a question, and I may post a new thread because I would really like to know what everyone else thinks on the matter but...what roll do you ideally see Rogues playing in PvP?
Perma-Stealth, unless insanely geared, has very little killing power. Most Perma Stealth Rogues are at the bottom of the list at the end of the match and -- rightly so because most are racing to point 1 or point 3 and capping/annoying the other team by trying to cap and thus, drawing other classes away from point 2...which the author of this build cleary states is where this build shines. In your mind, what role should Rogues be playing in PvP?? Seriously...They die soooo quickly if they are found, even more so if its by more than one opponent...so they are obviously not meant to be in the thick of major skirmishes...The fact is, the rogue that is able to stay in stealth 100% of the time shouldn't be able to kill you because their dmg is so insanely low...thats not a "learn to play" stab, its that the time it would take a 100% stealth rogue to kill someone is balanced enough to allow the other player to be able to find them and disrupt their stealth rotation... It seems obvious that the devs intend for the class to be annoying to the other team and its player and keep points contested while other classes duke it out at point 2...Otherwise, PvP would just be 5v5 at point 2 which is not very dynamic. The few people out there that are able to stack insane Tene's because they spend 1000$ on their rogue shouldn't warrant this type of play style being an exploit as you classify it.
You speak of "Cognitive abilities" or the lack there of...but it really just sounds like whining to those that actually know what they are talking about, and that includes the devs. Right now, a perma/semi-perma rogue plays a very crucial and unique roll in pvp that can directly lead to a team out-strategizing their opponent. It has nothing to do with being being OP and everything to do with changing the meta-strategy of PvP which, in its current form, has a unique roll for Rogues to play. I respectfully urge you to reconsider...
I'm going to ask a question, and I may post a new thread because I would really like to know what everyone else thinks on the matter but...what roll do you ideally see Rogues playing in PvP?
Perma-Stealth, unless insanely geared, has very little killing power. Most Perma Stealth Rogues are at the bottom of the list at the end of the match and rightly so because most are racing to point 1 or point 3 and capping/annoying the other team by trying to cap and thus, drawing other classes away from point 2...which the author of this build cleary states is the where this build shines. In your mind, what role should we be playing in PvP?? Seriously...We die so quickly if we are found, even more so if its by more than one opponent...so we are obviously not meant to head into major skirmishes...The fact is, the rogue that is able to stay in stealth 100% of the time shouldn't be able to kill you because their dmg is so insanely low...thats not a "learn to play" stab, its just fact. It seems obvious that the devs intend for the class to be annoying to the other team and keep points contested while other classes duke it out at point 2...The few people out there that are able to stack insane Tene's because they spend 1000$ on their rogue shouldn't warrant this play style being an exploit as you classify it.
You speak of "Cognitive abilities" or the lack there of...but it really just sounds like whining to those that actually know what they are talking about, and that includes the devs...I respectfully urge you to reconsider...
Rogues have always been caster killers really in every game I've ever heard of. They keep them in check. Great single target dps against non heavy armor wearers. They already are this in the other popular builds. They have better survival than a mage in the same situation. A mage is great when not being targeted and can really dish the pain but as soon as one or two people start focusing on them they die fast. A good rogue can vanish and then start again.
You see you are attributing the role currently given to Tanks to Rogues and that's not how it usually is. Now every game is different and perhaps that is intended but I respectfully doubt it.
Don't get me wrong I understand how bad some players are and thus not all perma stealth rogues are good but that doesn't change the fact that the build itself should not exist. They do not do "Bad damage" at all. They can knife you down to no hp before you can get out of LOS most of the time. Maybe not vs a Guardian Fighter but well if they were the other kind of rogue you know high crit/dps stun, etc they are the anti-guardian fighter with all of their back attacks.
You claim that you are super squishy and lacking a purpose but I disagree. Rogues are hella powerful in every role they try to be. Rogues are not Ranged DPS. That is the role of Rangers. The ability to be the best ranged DPS in game and from stealth is simply broken to say the least. No Mage I've ever seen can build themselves in such a way where their at will abilities will kill anything. So rogues are at present in this build not only nearly unkillable but also the best ranged dps in game. That role should be for Rangers or Wizards/Mages.
I strongly urge you to reconsider your perspective and realize that unless something is done about this build soon you will eventually end up fighting a team of **** near all perma stealthed rogues and while you might be also using this build.. It's gonna get hella boring for you if you can't find each other to fight with at all.
I guess you can always hope there's at least one other class on the other team to all gang up on tho right? /rolleyes
You misunderstand my reason for posting here at all. You see I can only assume the OP posted this build for two reasons. 1 is initial claim to fame. Every pvper loves such. The second and what I am guessing at the reason it's so well documented is to get it nerfed asap. I can only assume that the OP also feels (although not admitted) that it is game breakingly bad to be allowed to exist so he painted a perfectly illustrated with diagrams way for the Developers to fix the problem. I am not insulting the OP. I gave him props on his work actually. I am however insulting all of the would be copy cats who use this build because they 1) didn't think of it 2) exploit it.
This is an exploit plain and simple. I am pretty sure the game developers never intended this to be possible and it was a bit of shortsightedness that allowed to to happen in the first place. Abusing game mechanics in a way they are not intended is the very definition of an exploit.
Having said that I came in to this thread assuming that everyone was of at least average cognitive abilities and thus could see the writing on the wall. Builds like this will become highly abused to the point of insanity and the eventual end result would be premades of nothing but it since any such premade stands no actual chance of losing.
The problem is premade teams can exist and there will never be a mechanic which states "Sorry you can't queue because you have more than 2x of a class in the team". That just won't happen. The build has to fixed as in totally removed from possibility by the developers or the eventuality I just detailed is pretty darned certain. This is not a whine post simply a call for rational thought regarding the issues at hand. The only way to balance is to remove it.
i dont think it is in any way an exploit, since it's not using any bugs/glitches from the game, the devs placed skills that do not remove stealth and means for it to last longer/recover faster by using some talents exactly so people would try to make more use of this special move rather than just glue to a person and nuke the greatest damage dealing skill they can and then fight like a GWF. However they miscalculated the part where the stealth state is not removed when you use the skill while on it, allowing you to remain invisible indefinetelly.
Since the queues are far from being ajusted as you pointed (but only the devs will be able to say for sure) the second best way to fix it is to make B&S and shadow strike still refill your stealth bar when you use them in stealth, however just like any other encounter, make them pop you out of stealth, so even if it for a instant before the player press tab again,he will be visible and give a chance for enemy team to counter him.
But it's not like rogue is the only broken class, they have lots of fixing to do and that includes nonstop CC (permastun/permaknockdown/permaknockback)from many other classes, such as CW, GWF and GF. All other classes (save for cleric) have means to keep you out of fight indefnetelly while they plummet your defenseless face, while rogue's only defense is the ability to remain hidden and majorly gimp his damage for the sake of having that suvivability.
i dont think it is in any way an exploit, since it's not using any bugs/glitches from the game, the devs placed skills that do not remove stealth and means for it to last longer/recover faster by using some talents exactly so people would try to make more use of this special move rather than just glue to a person and nuke the greatest damage dealing skill they can and then fight like a GWF. However they miscalculated the part where the stealth state is not removed when you use the skill while on it, allowing you to remain invisible indefinetelly.
That is why I said this build is currently an exploit. You even admit that the developers had to make a mistake, miscalculation, lack of foresight call it what you wish for this to be possible. You've admitted it's an exploit in your sentence now all you have to do is say it outright. Repeat after me. "This is an exploit".
If Rogue's using stealth is such a problem why did they add that new stealth gear in the Gaunt that has even higher stealth decrease than the PvP Version?
Rogues have always been caster killers really in every game I've ever heard of. They keep them in check. Great single target dps against non heavy armor wearers. They already are this in the other popular builds. They have better survival than a mage in the same situation. A mage is great when not being targeted and can really dish the pain but as soon as one or two people start focusing on them they die fast. A good rogue can vanish and then start again.
You see you are attributing the role currently given to Tanks to Rogues and that's not how it usually is. Now every game is different and perhaps that is intended but I respectfully doubt it.
Don't get me wrong I understand how bad some players are and thus not all perma stealth rogues are good but that doesn't change the fact that the build itself should not exist. They do not do "Bad damage" at all. They can knife you down to no hp before you can get out of LOS most of the time. Maybe not vs a Guardian Fighter but well if they were the other kind of rogue you know high crit/dps stun, etc they are the anti-guardian fighter with all of their back attacks.
You claim that you are super squishy and lacking a purpose but I disagree. Rogues are hella powerful in every role they try to be. Rogues are not Ranged DPS. That is the role of Rangers. The ability to be the best ranged DPS in game and from stealth is simply broken to say the least. No Mage I've ever seen can build themselves in such a way where their at will abilities will kill anything. So rogues are at present in this build not only nearly unkillable but also the best ranged dps in game. That role should be for Rangers or Wizards/Mages.
I strongly urge you to reconsider your perspective and realize that unless something is done about this build soon you will eventually end up fighting a team of **** near all perma stealthed rogues and while you might be also using this build.. It's gonna get hella boring for you if you can't find each other to fight with at all.
I guess you can always hope there's at least one other class on the other team to all gang up on tho right? /rolleyes
Tanks don't die in two seconds if they are spotted. Mages have insane AoE and Control spells that make up for their "squishyness". Rogues have stealth. I'm sorry, but rogues have 12 daggers on a long cool down that can't get anywhere close to killing most players...do you even play the class?
If your answer to my question is single target DPS.... in a 5v5 extended fight, that is pretty boring and certainly not dynamic...for either team. On behalf of all rogues, i'd really like to apologize for the fact that you have to leave point 2 to go deal with us at 1 or 3..../rolleyes
It would appear to me that a lesson needs to take place to explain to people here what the difference is between hacks, bots & exploits. So class is now in session.
A Hack is when a player uses a third party program to alter the code such as a packet hack allowing them to teleport around, a stat hack such as finding the place in memory where various data is stored and altering it before sending it to the server. There's many kinds of hacks. No one is accusing these rogues of hacking.
A Bot is a script or other 3rd party software which attempts to play the game for a person using AI. There is tons of this going on and most often they are rogues. But truth be told they are so bad that the only real issue with botting rogues right now is getting one or two or more on your team at once and thus being 4v5 or worse since they are nearly useless as team mates.
Exploiting however is taking advantage of developer mistakes such as achieving 100% stealth. No sane person believes that it was fully intended by the developers to allow for this to happen. It's been repeatedly admitted that it had to be some sort of over sight on the developers part which caused this to become reality. That is the very nature of an exploit. You can cry and stamp your feet all you want trying to exclaim that this is working as intended but the future will tell the whole story. If after a few months of patching nothing has happened and this build still exists exactly as it is now then I will be wrong and you will be right. But if after enough patches are released and this is no longer possible then you will have been wrong and I will have been right. I refuse to argue semantics with children who are crying because you are threatening to take away their pacifier. You know this build is dumb, you know it will be nerfed and you are fighting as hard as you can to prevent it because you like your toy.
We pvpers know you are not good at pvp or else you would be demanding balance not defending imbalance. That is the order of things. No amount of insults from children will cause me harm and no amount of defending this build or exploiting it will make you good at pvp. If after this is nerfed you don't rage quit the game and adapt and find a way to excel at doing something else then perhaps there is hope for you.
As for the question above why is more stealth being added to the game.. Well we don't know what the future will bring. For all we know Rangers will come with a buff that makes stealth less useful. Perhaps it's a team buff that gives a massive boost to discover a stealthed rogue. There's lots of possibilities. As for now it's already admitted this is a developer mistake the only real issue is how long before it is corrected.
That is all and good day. You can go back to sucking on your pacifiers now I am done here. My point is made.
Ugh with all of these complaints I might as well remove my Rogue because people hate running to other points as this will soon be nerfed. Even with a DPS Rogue you can't really take out those Wizards that people say are easy to take out.
It would appear to me that a lesson needs to take place to explain to people here what the difference is between hacks, bots & exploits. So class is now in session.
A Hack is when a player uses a third party program to alter the code such as a packet hack allowing them to teleport around, a stat hack such as finding the place in memory where various data is stored and altering it before sending it to the server. There's many kinds of hacks. No one is accusing these rogues of hacking.
A Bot is a script or other 3rd party software which attempts to play the game for a person using AI. There is tons of this going on and most often they are rogues. But truth be told they are so bad that the only real issue with botting rogues right now is getting one or two or more on your team at once and thus being 4v5 or worse since they are nearly useless as team mates.
Exploiting however is taking advantage of developer mistakes such as achieving 100% stealth. No sane person believes that it was fully intended by the developers to allow for this to happen. It's been repeatedly admitted that it had to be some sort of over sight on the developers part which caused this to become reality. That is the very nature of an exploit. You can cry and stamp your feet all you want trying to exclaim that this is working as intended but the future will tell the whole story. If after a few months of patching nothing has happened and this build still exists exactly as it is now then I will be wrong and you will be right. But if after enough patches are released and this is no longer possible then you will have been wrong and I will have been right. I refuse to argue semantics with children who are crying because you are threatening to take away their pacifier. You know this build is dumb, you know it will be nerfed and you are fighting as hard as you can to prevent it because you like your toy.
We pvpers know you are not good at pvp or else you would be demanding balance not defending imbalance. That is the order of things. No amount of insults from children will cause me harm and no amount of defending this build or exploiting it will make you good at pvp. If after this is nerfed you don't rage quit the game and adapt and find a way to excel at doing something else then perhaps there is hope for you.
As for the question above why is more stealth being added to the game.. Well we don't know what the future will bring. For all we know Rangers will come with a buff that makes stealth less useful. Perhaps it's a team buff that gives a massive boost to discover a stealthed rogue. There's lots of possibilities. As for now it's already admitted this is a developer mistake the only real issue is how long before it is corrected.
That is all and good day. You can go back to sucking on your pacifiers now I am done here. My point is made.
/removespacifier....cough...LOL!!! Thanks for explaining all of that...really!! I had no idea what the difference between those things were and, now that I do, I suddenly understand everything!!!
I believe the Devs want PvP to be dynamic...5v5 at point 2 is NOT dynamic. You obviously have no idea how to deal with a perma-stealth rogue (i urge you to ask around because tons have figured out how to deal with it just fine)...which seems improbable when you have such a firm grasp on the difference between a hack, a bot and an exploit (again, i'm so glad you wrote 3 paragraphs explaining this, all this time we had no idea^^...and its soooo relevant!). Again, on behalf of all rogues everywhere, i'm super sorry you have to actually consider strategy when playing PvP instead of running into point 2 and doing your rotation...news flash, there is more to PvP than just killing the other guy. /rolleyes :-P
its not an exploit, everyone who thinks permastealth is an exploit is flat out wrong
^this is correct. :cool: ....alaerick is funny though...did you have any idea what the difference between an exploit a bot and a hack was before this thread!? My mind was so blown that I almost dropped my pacifier...:p
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borgued3Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 150Bounty Hunter
That is why I said this build is currently an exploit. You even admit that the developers had to make a mistake, miscalculation, lack of foresight call it what you wish for this to be possible. You've admitted it's an exploit in your sentence now all you have to do is say it outright. Repeat after me. "This is an exploit".
/thread
definition of exploit: you are abusing of a bug, a malfunction of the system that wasnt planned for obtaining advantage over other people
When it is just poor judgment of devs, it is not and exploit, it is making use of what the game has to offer that was intentionally placed there, so no, i wont repeat "it is an exploit", it is good use of dev's lack of foresight
^^^^ I'll disagree with you both and say that the current state of rogues was completely intended by the devs and makes PvP (and PvE when done properly) much more dynamic than a glass cannon class that only excels at single target DPS...If you really think Perma stealth is an exploit, than you must also think that rank 10 enchantments are an exploit, which they most certainly are not....
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borgued3Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 150Bounty Hunter
^^^^ I'll disagree with you both and say that the current state of rogues was completely intended by the devs and makes PvP (and PvE when done properly) much more dynamic than a glass cannon class that only excels at single target DPS...If you really think Perma stealth is an exploit, than you must also think that rank 10 enchantments are an exploit, which they most certainly are not....
although i agree that it was the devs intention, what i am pointing on my post are 2 things:
1- it is not an exploit and our friend there deffending it is an exploit is wrong
2- It was the devs intention to make permastealth possible, yes, but it wasnt really a nice decision, because even though it offers the rogue a more dynamic gameplay better than bashing heads with other melee fighters (and i like this sort of strategic gameplay thus why im rolling my version of this build), considering how pvp is, a team full permastealth is in fact unbalanced, because the oponents will never see your team moving and you can guarantee dominance over flags, and if you try to split your team for holding 2 flags, the rogues will sweep the area with less players (usually 2) since its 5 waves of CoS hitting few targets, and assuming the impossible that is the 5 rogues cant pin down the 2 players, it will be their win anyway because 5 players can steal the flag from 2 players defending it because of their numbers. I applaud the build and the OPs effort on creating the build and guide, but viewing it on general as a player it is in fact unbalanced even if it was the dev's intention.
The way to fix is simple, either make B&S and Shadow strike pop you out of stealth so other team can have a chance of getting you, forcing players with this build to actually know how to manage where they are according to stealth bar, or make a better queue system to avoid an absurd amount of rogues with this build to just waltz around other teams.
although i agree that it was the devs intention, what i am pointing on my post are 2 things:
1- it is not an exploit and our friend there deffending it is an exploit is wrong
2- It was the devs intention to make permastealth possible, yes, but it wasnt really a nice decision, because even though it offers the rogue a more dynamic gameplay better than bashing heads with other melee fighters (and i like this sort of strategic gameplay thus why im rolling my version of this build), considering how pvp is, a team full permastealth is in fact unbalanced, because the oponents will never see your team moving and you can guarantee dominance over flags, and if you try to split your team for holding 2 flags, the rogues will sweep the area with less players (usually 2) since its 5 waves of CoS hitting few targets, and assuming the impossible that is the 5 rogues cant pin down the 2 players, it will be their win anyway because 5 players can steal the flag from 2 players defending it because of their numbers. I applaud the build and the OPs effort on creating the build and guide, but viewing it on general as a player it is in fact unbalanced even if it was the dev's intention.
The way to fix is simple, either make B&S and Shadow strike pop you out of stealth so other team can have a chance of getting you, forcing players with this build to actually know how to manage where they are according to stealth bar, or make a better queue system to avoid an absurd amount of rogues with this build to just waltz around other teams.
I agree that, in theory, what you describe would be OP if it was highly coordinated...but is this really happening? More importantly, is this what the people who are crying for a Rogue nerf are having happen to them? I highly doubt it. The average (and new) player is queuing up for random PvP and playing the class without Tene's and with a gear score of less that 11k...given this scenario, what the hell are they supposed to do if they can't do damage and stay in stealth for a prolonged period of time?
definition of exploit: you are abusing of a bug, a malfunction of the system that wasnt planned for obtaining advantage over other people
When it is just poor judgment of devs, it is not and exploit, it is making use of what the game has to offer that was intentionally placed there, so no, i wont repeat "it is an exploit", it is good use of dev's lack of foresight
Actually you are referring to glitching or exploiting a bug. I am referring to exploiting a mistake in mechanics design. They are both technically exploits, just of different things. I've played lots of games for many years and this is firmly in the exploit category.
although i agree that it was the devs intention, what i am pointing on my post are 2 things:
1- it is not an exploit and our friend there deffending it is an exploit is wrong
2- It was the devs intention to make permastealth possible, yes, but it wasnt really a nice decision, because even though it offers the rogue a more dynamic gameplay better than bashing heads with other melee fighters (and i like this sort of strategic gameplay thus why im rolling my version of this build), considering how pvp is, a team full permastealth is in fact unbalanced, because the oponents will never see your team moving and you can guarantee dominance over flags, and if you try to split your team for holding 2 flags, the rogues will sweep the area with less players (usually 2) since its 5 waves of CoS hitting few targets, and assuming the impossible that is the 5 rogues cant pin down the 2 players, it will be their win anyway because 5 players can steal the flag from 2 players defending it because of their numbers. I applaud the build and the OPs effort on creating the build and guide, but viewing it on general as a player it is in fact unbalanced even if it was the dev's intention.
The way to fix is simple, either make B&S and Shadow strike pop you out of stealth so other team can have a chance of getting you, forcing players with this build to actually know how to manage where they are according to stealth bar, or make a better queue system to avoid an absurd amount of rogues with this build to just waltz around other teams.
I am glad I was at least capable of making you understand the problem. If it was just one guy who figured it out.. we could have grand tales around the campfire of that one dastardly rogue who was making mischief.. but he posted the build to the forums for everyone else to copy. There's only two reasons for this I can find valid. He was informing the Dev's in a clever way and making sure it gets nerfed soon or he didn't want to be called a hacker and used this as proof to counter it by informing others of how to do it too thereby clearing his name of using 3rd party tools to accomplish it.
It was an oversight by the Dev team. It needs to be fixed and your suggestion is one of the possibilities to do this. However, until such a time as this is fixed you can expect to see pvp degrade rapidly because of how many people (not just you and the other half a dozen people posting here in defense of it) are copying it. It will hit epidemic proportions in the near future mark my words.
I agree that, in theory, what you describe would be OP if it was highly coordinated...but is this really happening? More importantly, is this what the people who are crying for a Rogue nerf are having happen to them? I highly doubt it. The average (and new) player is queuing up for random PvP and playing the class without Tene's and with a gear score of less that 11k...given this scenario, what the hell are they supposed to do if they can't do damage and stay in stealth for a prolonged period of time?
Since you agree with my theory let me remind you of where this discussion between myself and Borgued3 started:
Here's the factors you are not taking in to consideration. Firstly, you are assuming I am referring to a 1v1 fight vs a rogue of this type. Nay, that is not to which I refer. I am talking about the fact this guide is so thorough and exact that any idiot could properly copy it and while not every can just pull it off without a reroll and respec there are a growing number of people who are attempting this build despite the mere second or two of visibility they can't shave off. Have you yet been in a round with 3 or 4 of these yet? I'm guessing you haven't.
Yesterday just before I came here to see if this build had been posted and causing me to post here I was in a round with not one, or two, or three but 4 near perma invisible trickster rogues in one round.. You may have some sort of defense vs 1 of them using LOS, and maybe a lucky AOE.. but no.. You have no defense vs 2 or more of them ganging up on you. There is no valid or logical course of action when being hit from 3 or 4 angles by the flying knives from different directions at once. Run one way and the knives stop they are smart enough to move away from you and let the other two or three continue wailing away.. that is a guaranteed death. The end of the round was just silly the single most ludicrous fight in pvp I've ever seen. I think we managed to kill one of the rogues once and killed the DC that they were teamed with a few times.. but let's face it we never even got a good look at who was attacking us the entire match.
The point being a coordinated team using voice and working together as a premade consisting of nothing but perma stealth rogues is for lack of a better term, game breaking as there is no actual defense or team config that works well against it.
It's already happening now. I was pleasantly minding my own business pvping away happily win some lose some and then this started. 3 rounds in a row with the same premade, 4 TR perma stealthers and a DC. They obviously either met via the match finder and kept requeing after or they were a premade. 2 GF 1 TR, 2CW team got slaughtered, so did the other 3 teams I played with against them. I eventually just said screw this I'll pvp later and came to the forums where I found this post telling people how to do it and I then facepalmed so hard I still have a red mark on my face when I realized why teams like this are popping up. If you think this one I faced will be the last hahaha yeah right.
alaerick: I am willing to bet that if you had faced 4 CWs instead of rogues it would have been the same result. Ditto that for 4 GFs. Your problem is not with permastealth, it's with getting ganked by overwhelming same-class synergy. The reason you have come here to complain is because you do not realize this yet.
A team made up of different classes will pretty much always lose to a team made up of the same class. Imagine what 4 CWs could do... they would be untouchable. 4 GFs would be 4 immortal stunlocking death machines. There is no such thing in this game as "team gestalt" with different classes making up for shortcomings in each other... what you see instead is same class synergy making the base class mechanics of the particular class overwhelmingly powerful when multiplied across however many players we are talking about.
I also suspect that your teams fell apart after they realized that they would have a hard time fighting not just one or two invisible opponents, but many. I am also willing to bet that they weren't even "real" permastealth rogues... normal DPS rogues can also have a long stealth rotation if they slot Shadow Strike, Bait and Switch, and use Lurker's Assault.
Comments
*Only dodge when Bait and Switch is on Cool Down.. Bait and Switch is tricky as you may be cutting it close to the very last millisecond.
With the rotation of Bait and Switch then Shadow Strike (continue rotation), you should be able to preform Perma-Stealth with 19.3 CD on B&S, the main problem I would guess is not dodge rolling, at full stamina you should be able to do 3 dodge rolls on the first Bait and Switch Cool Down.
Uriziel GF Gear Rating 14800
David Grave CW 10500 Gear Rating 6000 recovery(kripparian build)
Uriziem Monk Completionist 28 past life , DDO player since March 2006 (2006-2009 on Devourer server, 2009-2012 on Cannith server)
ex officer and founder of Ordo Draconis, DDO Italian Elite Guild, now on NEVERWINTER
picture sharing
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Campaign: The Battle of Neverwinter - NWS-DOQXFA4ZD
Prologue: A not so simple plan - NW-DCJG75B9D
well, someone got his a$$ handed to him on a silver plate by this build it seems.
Unlike your proposal, this is very likelly the most well thought build the TR got so far (no offense to the other builds, they are good too
And of course, the build on the other hand places the rogue on a delicate position because if he messes up the gameplay he is as good as dead, so it's scrub proof in a way that just copy and paste it won't do any good for the smartasses trying to be OP.
So back to ur dungeon troll.
Are you actually trying to defend this build?
Here's the factors you are not taking in to consideration. Firstly, you are assuming I am referring to a 1v1 fight vs a rogue of this type. Nay, that is not to which I refer. I am talking about the fact this guide is so thorough and exact that any idiot could properly copy it and while not every can just pull it off without a reroll and respec there are a growing number of people who are attempting this build despite the mere second or two of visibility they can't shave off. Have you yet been in a round with 3 or 4 of these yet? I'm guessing you haven't.
I have. What part of this don't you understand. The build is so successful with so little effort that it is being copied enmass. That means that it will continue to be copied more and more until it is finally nerfed as it should be. Meanwhile, it is damaging the games credibility in the pvp arena because a premade of all Perma invis trickster rogues is a sure victory pretty much every time.
Yesterday just before I came here to see if this build had been posted and causing me to post here I was in a round with not one, or two, or three but 4 near perma invisible trickster rogues in one round.. You may have some sort of defense vs 1 of them using LOS, and maybe a lucky AOE.. but no.. You have no defense vs 2 or more of them ganging up on you. There is no valid or logical course of action when being hit from 3 or 4 angles by the flying knives from different directions at once. Run one way and the knives stop they are smart enough to move away from you and let the other two or three continue wailing away.. that is a guaranteed death. The end of the round was just silly the single most ludicrous fight in pvp I've ever seen. I think we managed to kill one of the rogues once and killed the DC that they were teamed with a few times.. but let's face it we never even got a good look at who was attacking us the entire match.
The point being a coordinated team using voice and working together as a premade consisting of nothing but perma stealth rogues is for lack of a better term, game breaking as there is no actual defense or team config that works well against it.
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Campaign: The Battle of Neverwinter - NWS-DOQXFA4ZD
Prologue: A not so simple plan - NW-DCJG75B9D
The build is solid and it works exactly as a rogue should play roleplay wise. Each class has it's special ability for tab key, rogue's ability is stealth, i dont see whats wrong with a build which makes good use of it. The build is flawless? nope, some people know how to counter it, and considering it may kill the rogue if he messes up it makes it deppend heavily on how skillful the user is, which in my opinion is better than a build that people will just copy and paste and follow the rotation suggested.
Am i saying that rogues are wrong to go full dps nuking everything? Well if it works it has its merits, but nobody can argue that this build can bring more challenge to fight against than a rogue who will glue to you on stealth and then burn it with lashing blade/dazzing strike and then proceed to try to nuke you while he is perfectly visible to the rest of the enemy team to do something about it.
If you dont like the build just like your other friend above my previous post,fine, but this is a guide, so if you can't provide a decent feedback and will stick to "meh, the build is bad and you should feel bad", just serves to show that you shouldnt be posting on the forum. If you wanna criticize the build, do it in a polite way showing the flaws and how you would improve it rather than just angry rants because it is annoying to fight against.
now here i agree, thanks for your edit, it is unbalanced to have 2+ people using it on the same side, but the game has yet much more balance to be made and this build could use some reajustments to avoid this sort of situation, yet people coming here to insult it does not diminish the merit of the build, after all as you pointed out, it works.
A good way to "balance" things i believe would be to make a better arrangement on the pvp queue in order to limit the number of players that can play with the same class, like some sort of role picking before entering the queue along with a system that identifies the class and places the player on a queue where that class isnt abundant, but that my friend is a improvement to be done to the game in general, and it is not this build's fault, its the dev's fault for not balancing pvp properly so your complaint should be addressed on a different area, not just a rant on the guide of someone who took his time to perfect the build in his way.
This is an exploit plain and simple. I am pretty sure the game developers never intended this to be possible and it was a bit of shortsightedness that allowed to to happen in the first place. Abusing game mechanics in a way they are not intended is the very definition of an exploit.
Having said that I came in to this thread assuming that everyone was of at least average cognitive abilities and thus could see the writing on the wall. Builds like this will become highly abused to the point of insanity and the eventual end result would be premades of nothing but it since any such premade stands no actual chance of losing.
The problem is premade teams can exist and there will never be a mechanic which states "Sorry you can't queue because you have more than 2x of a class in the team". That just won't happen. The build has to fixed as in totally removed from possibility by the developers or the eventuality I just detailed is pretty darned certain. This is not a whine post simply a call for rational thought regarding the issues at hand. The only way to balance is to remove it.
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Campaign: The Battle of Neverwinter - NWS-DOQXFA4ZD
Prologue: A not so simple plan - NW-DCJG75B9D
also its not an exploit
I'm going to ask a question, and I may post a new thread because I would really like to know what everyone else thinks on the matter but...what roll do you ideally see Rogues playing in PvP?
Perma-Stealth, unless insanely geared, has very little killing power. Most Perma Stealth Rogues are at the bottom of the list at the end of the match and -- rightly so because most are racing to point 1 or point 3 and capping/annoying the other team by trying to cap and thus, drawing other classes away from point 2...which the author of this build cleary states is where this build shines. In your mind, what role should Rogues be playing in PvP?? Seriously...They die soooo quickly if they are found, even more so if its by more than one opponent...so they are obviously not meant to be in the thick of major skirmishes...The fact is, the rogue that is able to stay in stealth 100% of the time shouldn't be able to kill you because their dmg is so insanely low...thats not a "learn to play" stab, its that the time it would take a 100% stealth rogue to kill someone is balanced enough to allow the other player to be able to find them and disrupt their stealth rotation... It seems obvious that the devs intend for the class to be annoying to the other team and its player and keep points contested while other classes duke it out at point 2...Otherwise, PvP would just be 5v5 at point 2 which is not very dynamic. The few people out there that are able to stack insane Tene's because they spend 1000$ on their rogue shouldn't warrant this type of play style being an exploit as you classify it.
You speak of "Cognitive abilities" or the lack there of...but it really just sounds like whining to those that actually know what they are talking about, and that includes the devs. Right now, a perma/semi-perma rogue plays a very crucial and unique roll in pvp that can directly lead to a team out-strategizing their opponent. It has nothing to do with being being OP and everything to do with changing the meta-strategy of PvP which, in its current form, has a unique roll for Rogues to play. I respectfully urge you to reconsider...
Rogues have always been caster killers really in every game I've ever heard of. They keep them in check. Great single target dps against non heavy armor wearers. They already are this in the other popular builds. They have better survival than a mage in the same situation. A mage is great when not being targeted and can really dish the pain but as soon as one or two people start focusing on them they die fast. A good rogue can vanish and then start again.
You see you are attributing the role currently given to Tanks to Rogues and that's not how it usually is. Now every game is different and perhaps that is intended but I respectfully doubt it.
Don't get me wrong I understand how bad some players are and thus not all perma stealth rogues are good but that doesn't change the fact that the build itself should not exist. They do not do "Bad damage" at all. They can knife you down to no hp before you can get out of LOS most of the time. Maybe not vs a Guardian Fighter but well if they were the other kind of rogue you know high crit/dps stun, etc they are the anti-guardian fighter with all of their back attacks.
You claim that you are super squishy and lacking a purpose but I disagree. Rogues are hella powerful in every role they try to be. Rogues are not Ranged DPS. That is the role of Rangers. The ability to be the best ranged DPS in game and from stealth is simply broken to say the least. No Mage I've ever seen can build themselves in such a way where their at will abilities will kill anything. So rogues are at present in this build not only nearly unkillable but also the best ranged dps in game. That role should be for Rangers or Wizards/Mages.
I strongly urge you to reconsider your perspective and realize that unless something is done about this build soon you will eventually end up fighting a team of **** near all perma stealthed rogues and while you might be also using this build.. It's gonna get hella boring for you if you can't find each other to fight with at all.
I guess you can always hope there's at least one other class on the other team to all gang up on tho right? /rolleyes
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Campaign: The Battle of Neverwinter - NWS-DOQXFA4ZD
Prologue: A not so simple plan - NW-DCJG75B9D
i dont think it is in any way an exploit, since it's not using any bugs/glitches from the game, the devs placed skills that do not remove stealth and means for it to last longer/recover faster by using some talents exactly so people would try to make more use of this special move rather than just glue to a person and nuke the greatest damage dealing skill they can and then fight like a GWF. However they miscalculated the part where the stealth state is not removed when you use the skill while on it, allowing you to remain invisible indefinetelly.
Since the queues are far from being ajusted as you pointed (but only the devs will be able to say for sure) the second best way to fix it is to make B&S and shadow strike still refill your stealth bar when you use them in stealth, however just like any other encounter, make them pop you out of stealth, so even if it for a instant before the player press tab again,he will be visible and give a chance for enemy team to counter him.
But it's not like rogue is the only broken class, they have lots of fixing to do and that includes nonstop CC (permastun/permaknockdown/permaknockback)from many other classes, such as CW, GWF and GF. All other classes (save for cleric) have means to keep you out of fight indefnetelly while they plummet your defenseless face, while rogue's only defense is the ability to remain hidden and majorly gimp his damage for the sake of having that suvivability.
/thread
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Campaign: The Battle of Neverwinter - NWS-DOQXFA4ZD
Prologue: A not so simple plan - NW-DCJG75B9D
Tanks don't die in two seconds if they are spotted. Mages have insane AoE and Control spells that make up for their "squishyness". Rogues have stealth. I'm sorry, but rogues have 12 daggers on a long cool down that can't get anywhere close to killing most players...do you even play the class?
If your answer to my question is single target DPS.... in a 5v5 extended fight, that is pretty boring and certainly not dynamic...for either team. On behalf of all rogues, i'd really like to apologize for the fact that you have to leave point 2 to go deal with us at 1 or 3..../rolleyes
A Hack is when a player uses a third party program to alter the code such as a packet hack allowing them to teleport around, a stat hack such as finding the place in memory where various data is stored and altering it before sending it to the server. There's many kinds of hacks. No one is accusing these rogues of hacking.
A Bot is a script or other 3rd party software which attempts to play the game for a person using AI. There is tons of this going on and most often they are rogues. But truth be told they are so bad that the only real issue with botting rogues right now is getting one or two or more on your team at once and thus being 4v5 or worse since they are nearly useless as team mates.
Exploiting however is taking advantage of developer mistakes such as achieving 100% stealth. No sane person believes that it was fully intended by the developers to allow for this to happen. It's been repeatedly admitted that it had to be some sort of over sight on the developers part which caused this to become reality. That is the very nature of an exploit. You can cry and stamp your feet all you want trying to exclaim that this is working as intended but the future will tell the whole story. If after a few months of patching nothing has happened and this build still exists exactly as it is now then I will be wrong and you will be right. But if after enough patches are released and this is no longer possible then you will have been wrong and I will have been right. I refuse to argue semantics with children who are crying because you are threatening to take away their pacifier. You know this build is dumb, you know it will be nerfed and you are fighting as hard as you can to prevent it because you like your toy.
We pvpers know you are not good at pvp or else you would be demanding balance not defending imbalance. That is the order of things. No amount of insults from children will cause me harm and no amount of defending this build or exploiting it will make you good at pvp. If after this is nerfed you don't rage quit the game and adapt and find a way to excel at doing something else then perhaps there is hope for you.
As for the question above why is more stealth being added to the game.. Well we don't know what the future will bring. For all we know Rangers will come with a buff that makes stealth less useful. Perhaps it's a team buff that gives a massive boost to discover a stealthed rogue. There's lots of possibilities. As for now it's already admitted this is a developer mistake the only real issue is how long before it is corrected.
That is all and good day. You can go back to sucking on your pacifiers now I am done here. My point is made.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Campaign: The Battle of Neverwinter - NWS-DOQXFA4ZD
Prologue: A not so simple plan - NW-DCJG75B9D
/removespacifier....cough...LOL!!! Thanks for explaining all of that...really!! I had no idea what the difference between those things were and, now that I do, I suddenly understand everything!!!
I believe the Devs want PvP to be dynamic...5v5 at point 2 is NOT dynamic. You obviously have no idea how to deal with a perma-stealth rogue (i urge you to ask around because tons have figured out how to deal with it just fine)...which seems improbable when you have such a firm grasp on the difference between a hack, a bot and an exploit (again, i'm so glad you wrote 3 paragraphs explaining this, all this time we had no idea^^...and its soooo relevant!). Again, on behalf of all rogues everywhere, i'm super sorry you have to actually consider strategy when playing PvP instead of running into point 2 and doing your rotation...news flash, there is more to PvP than just killing the other guy. /rolleyes :-P
You'll be back...I'll bet my pacifier on it.
^this is correct. :cool: ....alaerick is funny though...did you have any idea what the difference between an exploit a bot and a hack was before this thread!? My mind was so blown that I almost dropped my pacifier...:p
definition of exploit: you are abusing of a bug, a malfunction of the system that wasnt planned for obtaining advantage over other people
When it is just poor judgment of devs, it is not and exploit, it is making use of what the game has to offer that was intentionally placed there, so no, i wont repeat "it is an exploit", it is good use of dev's lack of foresight
although i agree that it was the devs intention, what i am pointing on my post are 2 things:
1- it is not an exploit and our friend there deffending it is an exploit is wrong
2- It was the devs intention to make permastealth possible, yes, but it wasnt really a nice decision, because even though it offers the rogue a more dynamic gameplay better than bashing heads with other melee fighters (and i like this sort of strategic gameplay thus why im rolling my version of this build), considering how pvp is, a team full permastealth is in fact unbalanced, because the oponents will never see your team moving and you can guarantee dominance over flags, and if you try to split your team for holding 2 flags, the rogues will sweep the area with less players (usually 2) since its 5 waves of CoS hitting few targets, and assuming the impossible that is the 5 rogues cant pin down the 2 players, it will be their win anyway because 5 players can steal the flag from 2 players defending it because of their numbers. I applaud the build and the OPs effort on creating the build and guide, but viewing it on general as a player it is in fact unbalanced even if it was the dev's intention.
The way to fix is simple, either make B&S and Shadow strike pop you out of stealth so other team can have a chance of getting you, forcing players with this build to actually know how to manage where they are according to stealth bar, or make a better queue system to avoid an absurd amount of rogues with this build to just waltz around other teams.
I agree that, in theory, what you describe would be OP if it was highly coordinated...but is this really happening? More importantly, is this what the people who are crying for a Rogue nerf are having happen to them? I highly doubt it. The average (and new) player is queuing up for random PvP and playing the class without Tene's and with a gear score of less that 11k...given this scenario, what the hell are they supposed to do if they can't do damage and stay in stealth for a prolonged period of time?
I am glad I was at least capable of making you understand the problem. If it was just one guy who figured it out.. we could have grand tales around the campfire of that one dastardly rogue who was making mischief.. but he posted the build to the forums for everyone else to copy. There's only two reasons for this I can find valid. He was informing the Dev's in a clever way and making sure it gets nerfed soon or he didn't want to be called a hacker and used this as proof to counter it by informing others of how to do it too thereby clearing his name of using 3rd party tools to accomplish it.
It was an oversight by the Dev team. It needs to be fixed and your suggestion is one of the possibilities to do this. However, until such a time as this is fixed you can expect to see pvp degrade rapidly because of how many people (not just you and the other half a dozen people posting here in defense of it) are copying it. It will hit epidemic proportions in the near future mark my words.
Since you agree with my theory let me remind you of where this discussion between myself and Borgued3 started:
It's already happening now. I was pleasantly minding my own business pvping away happily win some lose some and then this started. 3 rounds in a row with the same premade, 4 TR perma stealthers and a DC. They obviously either met via the match finder and kept requeing after or they were a premade. 2 GF 1 TR, 2CW team got slaughtered, so did the other 3 teams I played with against them. I eventually just said screw this I'll pvp later and came to the forums where I found this post telling people how to do it and I then facepalmed so hard I still have a red mark on my face when I realized why teams like this are popping up. If you think this one I faced will be the last hahaha yeah right.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Campaign: The Battle of Neverwinter - NWS-DOQXFA4ZD
Prologue: A not so simple plan - NW-DCJG75B9D
nerf GFs?
A team made up of different classes will pretty much always lose to a team made up of the same class. Imagine what 4 CWs could do... they would be untouchable. 4 GFs would be 4 immortal stunlocking death machines. There is no such thing in this game as "team gestalt" with different classes making up for shortcomings in each other... what you see instead is same class synergy making the base class mechanics of the particular class overwhelmingly powerful when multiplied across however many players we are talking about.
I also suspect that your teams fell apart after they realized that they would have a hard time fighting not just one or two invisible opponents, but many. I am also willing to bet that they weren't even "real" permastealth rogues... normal DPS rogues can also have a long stealth rotation if they slot Shadow Strike, Bait and Switch, and use Lurker's Assault.