Their goal should be a games design where bringing two clerics to a dungeon does nothing but reduce the group dps. Running double cleric should NOT increase group survivability. How hard can it be, every other mmo has figured this out, why can't cryptic?
I dunno every mmo I played running 2 healers DOES increase group survivability. Do you have an example from another mmo where it doesnt'?
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pilletrillarnMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
More and More Frustrated ppl will come . My Prediction will be right..
I for one is going to start doing dungeons now with my lvl 60 DC. I think many more are going to start doing that now when you get to use more of your ability. Being asked to do a dungeon only using AS was like being called an idiot.
First off, ALL stacks should be eliminated from ALL classes! It's a game, not a "hackfest"!
Second,
The cleric as it stands, isn't anywhere near in need of a nerf(except the nerf of stacking). I mean common, it takes a day for spells to regenerate and by that time, some yahoo with a blade comes in with a million shots at you, never ending stream of strikes!
Third,
I HATE it when team mates blame everything on you when they die, because YOUR suppose to save the day and "BABYSIT" them!
We're clerics, not an admin with godmode powers! Far from it actually! Like I stated in the second part, our time for resuming spells is so pathetic, you'd have time to run to the bathroom, order a pizza and come back in hopes we can now push that heal button!
I hate games that put time stoppers on their spells! Make it less effective, but remove the dam reload time and let us spam the HAMSTER out of it!
Has anyone NOT noticed that the irony of it all is, we're clerics and our "at wil" spells aren't healing? I mean really? IT'S A C L E R I C!
MAKE SOME AT WIL SPELLS HEEEEEAAAAALING! (without divinity)
1 - im ok with stacks brings more action into the fights ^^
2 - our heal output is just too low to compensate the AS nerf like with that lack of mitigation for several seconds
3 - this is mostly why i guess i wont be playing my cleric anymore. everbody got comfy with perma AS and red areas could mostly be ignored because of its mitigation. what chaos breaks out if there is no AS could already be seen when the AS got somehow dispelled by some projectiles. of course so far one could expect an almost insta recast if it fades and u didnt have to pay attention on limited as uptime. But if someone dies, of course its the clerics fault, he's the healer.
And relating to our at wills, u rly forgot our divinity at will with its ludicrous heal! if someone got hit hard its a piece of cake to heal him up again. and it barely cost divinity!
And relating to our at wills, u rly forgot our divinity at will with its ludicrous heal! if someone got hit hard its a piece of cake to heal him up again. and it barely cost divinity!
Pretty much this. even though people disliked soothing light and didn't think it was worth spending divinity on, using HW plus soothing light would bring a target up to full hp pretty quickly especially when combined with AS.
Also, it is getting buffed, kind of contradicts everyone who is saying "WHy u nerf AS and not buff other stuff"
I like challange . Im passionate player . Ofc Im DC class.
But PW not even takin feedback .
AS nerf let it be. I can't stack the shield , LET IT BE.
But comon GIVE ME HEALING TOOLS !!!!!!!!!!! please !
20 seconds CD on Heal, other heal 15 seconds other one 10 sec.and they expect us surive and heal tank who gonna have agro. My Prediction ? Domino Effect. Less Cleric on servers -> longer w8 for dunegons -> more ppl frustrated -> more ppl gonna quit.
Alot ppl will not agree with me . But tbh if someone playin HEALER class . It's Passionate person. But if frustration will come what gonna happen ?
/Tested changes on PBE. / checked all builds. prepare for mega whipes and frustration.
ps. Now Walkin on 2x Cleric will be must , Just Throwin Circles will be ONE after another instead of stackin them.
ps.2 Yes Im Cleric , Yes i was doing CN on 1x DC, 2x CW, 2x TR now will be impossible
That's where you are mistaken.
Youy better be bringing a CW, GWF and a GF into the dungeon run to insure your not the MT. L2P imo.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Character is what a man is in the dark
1 - im ok with stacks brings more action into the fights ^^
2 - our heal output is just too low to compensate the AS nerf like with that lack of mitigation for several seconds
3 - this is mostly why i guess i wont be playing my cleric anymore. everbody got comfy with perma AS and red areas could mostly be ignored because of its mitigation. what chaos breaks out if there is no AS could already be seen when the AS got somehow dispelled by some projectiles. of course so far one could expect an almost insta recast if it fades and u didnt have to pay attention on limited as uptime. But if someone dies, of course its the clerics fault, he's the healer.
And relating to our at wills, u rly forgot our divinity at will with its ludicrous heal! if someone got hit hard its a piece of cake to heal him up again. and it barely cost divinity!
It's true but I still don't agree with our at wills being focused on combat! It should be the other way around! At wills should be healing, it is our MAIN ROLE after all! I mean if I was strolling the pvp zone with a sword in hand, I'd agree. But since we're NOT rolling with weapons, then it is obvious what our function is. So I thought...
Our encounters (The word says it all), Should be focused on attack spells mostly. Or maybe we just need MORE FREAKING BUTTONS ON THAT BAR !!!
Why can't we have TWO load outs like most games out there? One for defense spells, one to load your offense spells. With a simple click where you can switch the bar rapidly during battle!
How hard can it be to integrate this?
All of these people complaining because they won't have the healing to do cleric + 2x Rogue + 2x Wiz make me laugh. The top end dungeons will still be doable, but you will need a more balanced group. Instead of stacking damage, it will actually be worthwhile to have a tank and GWF (and GWF should have significantly higher damage now as well).
This nerf will also help with PVP, as previously, a team with 2x good clerics was basically invincible. I know it drove me crazy to jump in on a Cleric, Rogue, or Wizard and get them down to 20%, only to see them start healing faster than I could do damage once my daily was down (without using CC on me, or running...just standing still and taking it).
i am reading and well i think that some are not counting something interesting in the change Healing produce less threat, and GF figthers produce more XD so now all the mobs will be following the tank when there are more adds
Everything works out in the end . If it hasn't worked out yet, it isn't the end...
Enrage timers are just lazy game design that enforces a gear check.
Last I checked bringing 2 healers to naxx in WoW not only increased group survivability but also was considered mandatory by most people. There's plenty of other examples where people can bring more than 1 healer and beat enrage timers, all at the same time increasing group survivability.
This nerf will also help with PVP, as previously, a team with 2x good clerics was basically invincible. I know it drove me crazy to jump in on a Cleric, Rogue, or Wizard and get them down to 20%, only to see them start healing faster than I could do damage once my daily was down (without using CC on me, or running...just standing still and taking it).
The nerf to AS uptime is terrible for PVP, clerics are going to be greatly underpowered. If you can't push a cleric out of his circle, entangle him then kill him on your wizard you are doing it wrong.
*DDDDDDDoooooOOOOOOmmmmmMMM* Que the BYOH groups. It will be fine, people that play clerics as the easy heal button will find this omg rage quit worthy. Those that actually know how to be a good cleric and enjoy it will remain the same.
Foundry Designs: Once a Dungeon Master, always a Dungeon Master.
Hmm maybe now that it's nerfed I'll try to but a different skill in my bar instead and see how that works out. Having said that the net ro AS is by no means terrible. I tested it on the preview shard and really didn't feel that much of a change.
Take your free re-spec and spec for all heals now and play your class right.
Any other MMO, that would be a great statement. However, healing in this game is not really worthwhile nor is it rewarding for most people. I chose cleric because it is usually the least played class that is the most in demand and I like a challenge.
Here is the problem with you logic in this game. Healing is not that amazing nor constant (Beyond AS) and if a group dies, guess who is almost always going to get the blame and get yelled at? Especially with todays immature player base.
I am curious to see the skills of all these exploiters after short cutting bosses and camp sites is nixed.
I like challange . Im passionate player . Ofc Im DC class.
But PW not even takin feedback .
AS nerf let it be. I can't stack the shield , LET IT BE.
But comon GIVE ME HEALING TOOLS !!!!!!!!!!! please !
20 seconds CD on Heal, other heal 15 seconds other one 10 sec. and they expect us surive and heal tank who gonna have agro.
My Prediction ? Domino Effect. Less Cleric on servers -> longer w8 for dunegons -> more ppl frustrated -> more ppl gonna quit.
Alot ppl will not agree with me . But tbh if someone playin HEALER class . It's Passionate person. But if frustration will come what gonna happen ?
/Tested changes on PBE. / checked all builds. prepare for mega whipes and frustration.
ps. Now Walkin on 2x Cleric will be must , Just Throwin Circles will be ONE after another instead of stackin them.
ps.2 Yes Im Cleric , Yes i was doing CN on 1x DC, 2x CW, 2x TR now will be impossible
Mebbe if u used compleet sentances 'n lrnd 2 spell them devs mite unnerstan wat ur sayin
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neomouserMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
Personally, I'm moving over to Rift (free to play as of 6/12). Got my Cleric to 60, got 2/4 and 2/4 T2 and T2.5 MH/OH with Ancient belt/rings/neck. Ioun Stone at 25 with best-in-slot ring/neck/icon. I'm finding myself extremely bored with the end-game content.
What end-game is there? CN has nothing to offer me anymore, except the occasional piece of gear that I sell on AH. The only upgrades are Enchantments. I find Cryptic's lack of planning for endgame content mind-boggling. How long do they expect people to play this game? It took me about a month to get pretty much geared out on one character. At least Diablo 3 had Inferno difficulty, which extended endgame for a while because of Inferno's difficulty scale.
Maybe it would be different if the PVP system was a little worthwhile or even the least bit enjoyable, but one 5v5 domination just doesn't cut it. The combat system in NW had a lot of potential, but the complete disregard for endgame content has caused me to leave for another MMO. I tried to like it, but I can't see this game progressing in any positive aspect judging by the way Cryptic has designed their endgame.
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eqballzzMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
You do realize english is probably not his first language?
As for me, I am a cleric and I have NEVER had a second cleric in my group, except once and that was Wolf lair. Astral Shield was more to the clerics benefit than that groups.
Now, with these changes, they are pushing people back to the stanard trinity meta, except they do not give the clerics the strongest tools in the box to save *squishies* so, CW, TR you guys are f*cked. Bring your pots, stack heavily on them. The clerics will be so busy healing the GF and GWF and themselves, they won't have time to heal you. And when AS is down for 5-7 secs...you are TRULY on your own.
The reason DC's are complaining is that AS uptime has been nerfed. None of the other healing abilities have been boosted to compensate. In that 5 sec window that AS is down, clerics will be sweating balls trying to heal themselves or whoever needs it. With adds that hit like a bowling ball to the face, and potions that have a less than desirable CD on them, the new dungeons groups are going to be pretty pissed off at DC's for *lack of healing*. Bad habits that have plagued the *other players* who stand in red circle because *hey, I have AS I'm fine* are still going to persist and blame CLERICS for their lack of healing.
No cleric wants that. We want to enjoy the dungeon run as much as anyone, but faced with *clerics are bad, lawl, L2P* a lot of clerics aren't going to stick around for that. The ones that have quit, like me, will find other ways to play and enjoy their time. And it won't be on the most under-appreciated class in the game.
I'm positive PWE and Cryptic will take all your feedback into consideration before the 20th. They released the intended changes a week earlier than the date it was supposed to be released. This can only mean they are testing these changes in a live setting to see how the majority of the community will respond.
It would be best if we treat this as an added final testing for the official launch. And as much as possible provide the best possible constructive feedback we can for the betterment of the entire game. Raging does so well in venting out our frustration but what fixes an issue, in my opinion, is a collection of level-headed players who can provide constructive feedback in regards to the change.
I for one really dislike the abhorrent nerf to AS. It completely destroys the top encounter of a cleric which is pretty much essential for them to fulfill their role as a Leader-type class, which acts as the main support of a party in encounters. Although 2 AS stacking was mind-blowing-ly OP, that's basically the only thing that needed a nerf for AS. A 33% reduction in up-time is too big of a blow for the skill, almost rendering the entire class completely reliant on recovery stats just to be able to gain access to AS much faster. Clerics have it hard enough supporting us DPS classes from afar, making sure our HP's are well maintained while dealing with the constant influx of adds. It's one of the hardest classes to play in this game, in my opinion.
I hope Cryptic can somehow sift through all our feedback, and reconsider the uptime reduction of Astral Shield.
Sincerely, a huge fan of the game.
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xen0phreakMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 14Arc User
edited June 2013
As Cleric, I assure you that I am stoked about these changes. No longer do you have the option to lol through a dungeon with fail clerics stacking AS. Finally a skilled cleric gets to shine for doing his job properly. Not having to share loot with other clerics is a plus as well.
It's true but I still don't agree with our at wills being focused on combat! It should be the other way around! At wills should be healing, it is our MAIN ROLE after all! I mean if I was strolling the pvp zone with a sword in hand, I'd agree. But since we're NOT rolling with weapons, then it is obvious what our function is. So I thought...
Our encounters (The word says it all), Should be focused on attack spells mostly. Or maybe we just need MORE FREAKING BUTTONS ON THAT BAR !!!
Why can't we have TWO load outs like most games out there? One for defense spells, one to load your offense spells. With a simple click where you can switch the bar rapidly during battle!
How hard can it be to integrate this?
One of our at wills grants temporary hitpoints every third strike (which is like a pre-emptive heal) and another -Astra Seal is actually a very good heal. You have these at-will tools you desire, they just need to be used smartly and aren't faceroll spam easy mode heal at wills.
Any other MMO, that would be a great statement. However, healing in this game is not really worthwhile nor is it rewarding for most people. I chose cleric because it is usually the least played class that is the most in demand and I like a challenge.
Here is the problem with you logic in this game. Healing is not that amazing nor constant (Beyond AS) and if a group dies, guess who is almost always going to get the blame and get yelled at? Especially with todays immature player base.
I am curious to see the skills of all these exploiters after short cutting bosses and camp sites is nixed.
I played a DC to 50 got astral shield to see what all the hub-bub was about it, not impressed and rerolled. YOU GUYS DON'T NEED TO TANK NOW!
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werealchemistMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Has anyone NOT noticed that the irony of it all is, we're clerics and our "at wil" spells aren't healing? I mean really? IT'S A C L E R I C!
MAKE SOME AT WIL SPELLS HEEEEEAAAAALING! (without divinity)
Astral seal
Sacred flame
Have you even played this class yet? You're doing it wrong.
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cho83Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited June 2013
Every dungeon I did till now I was top dmg doing 1 mil more dmg then second man in the party with only PvP gear (8.400gs in total) without enchants nor any pots ,and every darn time I take massive aggro by the most awesome thing is that every DC I had in the party did a hell of a good job so I re-rolled to DC because in every past mmorpg I played I was a healing bot or a tank ,never a dps ....healing is much bigger challenge and after this patch it will be much harder ,I know, but that's how I like it ,HARD CORE ALL TEH WAY !:D
The effectiveness of HW is situational. I've used it to great effect at times.
The solution to that is... don't use it with DP when you like things where they are, use it with DP when you want things further away. It's like two Two TWO spells in one!
With this update, people are going to have to learn new ways to play. Stand by the X shouldn't be that much harder to grasp than stand in the blue.
Haha you give people to much credit Can't even get people to stand in blue and you want them to hug the monster that you have cast Forgemaster on for 5 seconds.... they might do it if the mob had a big blue flashing neon sign on it....
Comments
I dunno every mmo I played running 2 healers DOES increase group survivability. Do you have an example from another mmo where it doesnt'?
I for one is going to start doing dungeons now with my lvl 60 DC. I think many more are going to start doing that now when you get to use more of your ability. Being asked to do a dungeon only using AS was like being called an idiot.
1 - im ok with stacks brings more action into the fights ^^
2 - our heal output is just too low to compensate the AS nerf like with that lack of mitigation for several seconds
3 - this is mostly why i guess i wont be playing my cleric anymore. everbody got comfy with perma AS and red areas could mostly be ignored because of its mitigation. what chaos breaks out if there is no AS could already be seen when the AS got somehow dispelled by some projectiles. of course so far one could expect an almost insta recast if it fades and u didnt have to pay attention on limited as uptime. But if someone dies, of course its the clerics fault, he's the healer.
And relating to our at wills, u rly forgot our divinity at will with its ludicrous heal! if someone got hit hard its a piece of cake to heal him up again. and it barely cost divinity!
Pretty much this. even though people disliked soothing light and didn't think it was worth spending divinity on, using HW plus soothing light would bring a target up to full hp pretty quickly especially when combined with AS.
Also, it is getting buffed, kind of contradicts everyone who is saying "WHy u nerf AS and not buff other stuff"
Soothing Light: The healing from this power now scales based on player level.
source: http://nw.perfectworld.com/news/?p=913661
That's where you are mistaken.
Youy better be bringing a CW, GWF and a GF into the dungeon run to insure your not the MT. L2P imo.
Character is what a man is in the dark
Every MMO that institutes Enrage timers.
So in other words, the good MMO's.
Character is what a man is in the dark
It's true but I still don't agree with our at wills being focused on combat! It should be the other way around! At wills should be healing, it is our MAIN ROLE after all! I mean if I was strolling the pvp zone with a sword in hand, I'd agree. But since we're NOT rolling with weapons, then it is obvious what our function is. So I thought...
Our encounters (The word says it all), Should be focused on attack spells mostly. Or maybe we just need MORE FREAKING BUTTONS ON THAT BAR !!!
Why can't we have TWO load outs like most games out there? One for defense spells, one to load your offense spells. With a simple click where you can switch the bar rapidly during battle!
How hard can it be to integrate this?
This nerf will also help with PVP, as previously, a team with 2x good clerics was basically invincible. I know it drove me crazy to jump in on a Cleric, Rogue, or Wizard and get them down to 20%, only to see them start healing faster than I could do damage once my daily was down (without using CC on me, or running...just standing still and taking it).
Enrage timers are just lazy game design that enforces a gear check.
Last I checked bringing 2 healers to naxx in WoW not only increased group survivability but also was considered mandatory by most people. There's plenty of other examples where people can bring more than 1 healer and beat enrage timers, all at the same time increasing group survivability.
The nerf to AS uptime is terrible for PVP, clerics are going to be greatly underpowered. If you can't push a cleric out of his circle, entangle him then kill him on your wizard you are doing it wrong.
Any other MMO, that would be a great statement. However, healing in this game is not really worthwhile nor is it rewarding for most people. I chose cleric because it is usually the least played class that is the most in demand and I like a challenge.
Here is the problem with you logic in this game. Healing is not that amazing nor constant (Beyond AS) and if a group dies, guess who is almost always going to get the blame and get yelled at? Especially with todays immature player base.
I am curious to see the skills of all these exploiters after short cutting bosses and camp sites is nixed.
Mebbe if u used compleet sentances 'n lrnd 2 spell them devs mite unnerstan wat ur sayin
What end-game is there? CN has nothing to offer me anymore, except the occasional piece of gear that I sell on AH. The only upgrades are Enchantments. I find Cryptic's lack of planning for endgame content mind-boggling. How long do they expect people to play this game? It took me about a month to get pretty much geared out on one character. At least Diablo 3 had Inferno difficulty, which extended endgame for a while because of Inferno's difficulty scale.
Maybe it would be different if the PVP system was a little worthwhile or even the least bit enjoyable, but one 5v5 domination just doesn't cut it. The combat system in NW had a lot of potential, but the complete disregard for endgame content has caused me to leave for another MMO. I tried to like it, but I can't see this game progressing in any positive aspect judging by the way Cryptic has designed their endgame.
Nicely said.
It would be best if we treat this as an added final testing for the official launch. And as much as possible provide the best possible constructive feedback we can for the betterment of the entire game. Raging does so well in venting out our frustration but what fixes an issue, in my opinion, is a collection of level-headed players who can provide constructive feedback in regards to the change.
I for one really dislike the abhorrent nerf to AS. It completely destroys the top encounter of a cleric which is pretty much essential for them to fulfill their role as a Leader-type class, which acts as the main support of a party in encounters. Although 2 AS stacking was mind-blowing-ly OP, that's basically the only thing that needed a nerf for AS. A 33% reduction in up-time is too big of a blow for the skill, almost rendering the entire class completely reliant on recovery stats just to be able to gain access to AS much faster. Clerics have it hard enough supporting us DPS classes from afar, making sure our HP's are well maintained while dealing with the constant influx of adds. It's one of the hardest classes to play in this game, in my opinion.
I hope Cryptic can somehow sift through all our feedback, and reconsider the uptime reduction of Astral Shield.
Sincerely, a huge fan of the game.
One of our at wills grants temporary hitpoints every third strike (which is like a pre-emptive heal) and another -Astra Seal is actually a very good heal. You have these at-will tools you desire, they just need to be used smartly and aren't faceroll spam easy mode heal at wills.
This just made me laugh out loud after that near-melty rant that preceded it.
Oh, that's so good it had to be an intentional troll. Had. To.
I played a DC to 50 got astral shield to see what all the hub-bub was about it, not impressed and rerolled. YOU GUYS DON'T NEED TO TANK NOW!
Astral seal
Sacred flame
Have you even played this class yet? You're doing it wrong.
Haha you give people to much credit