Well yeah, adding in a penalty makes less people queue. That's why it's a band-aid and not a solution. But it also fudges the ratio of DPS to Tank/Healer a bit because, amazingly enough, most of the trolls that do it are DPS, so for the remaining people queuing, the queues go faster. The GF and DC won't notice a difference, but the DPS will.
You just killed your argument you know. If most of the trolls are dps let em leave as you will still have your GF/DC and requeue and it shouldn't be too long because as you have just said dps is a dime a dozen.
I had not read all cause are 11 pages, but reading the first i have to say that im not agree at all.
The bugs and crashs are there.
How many people ask for queue and they have to relog for be bugged? Im completly sure, that all people here, has been bugged any time, in pvp, pve, i dont mind.
So penalization NO. In 1 year, when the game ll be stable, it can be possible, but now, no.
You just killed your argument you know. If most of the trolls are dps let em leave as you will still have your GF/DC and requeue and it shouldn't be too long because as you have just said dps is a dime a dozen.
No, I didn't. You're not getting the whole picture.
Putting in a penalty won't have any effect on the tank/healer players queuing. It's not intended to. They are the bottleneck for the queues anyway, and you can't get much easier than near-instant.
What it will do is make queuing easier for the DPS. They are the surplus, and the less DPS there are in queue, the sooner it'll get to the ones in queue.
Since you've already trimmed out the people who aren't willing to get in the queue because of the penalty, you're less likely to run into the ragequitters, so you can get the instance done (or at least an actual try), and progress.
30 minutes into the dungeon and the cleric says, "hope I'm doing okay, first time here." Of course the group had no deaths and the first boss went by easy. Two people drop.
Really annoying.
Ya its really annoying when your in a group and they all start to suck really bad. Instead of waisting my time i would leave the group. It goes both ways so no i dont think there should be a time out deal.
No, I didn't. You're not getting the whole picture.
Putting in a penalty won't have any effect on the tank/healer players queuing. It's not intended to. They are the bottleneck for the queues anyway, and you can't get much easier than near-instant.
What it will do is make queuing easier for the DPS. They are the surplus, and the less DPS there are in queue, the sooner it'll get to the ones in queue.
Since you've already trimmed out the people who aren't willing to get in the queue because of the penalty, you're less likely to run into the ragequitters, so you can get the instance done (or at least an actual try), and progress.
Your changing the argument here. Now you are saying the penalty is more to whittle down dps players by focusing on eliminating trolls or people you think should be locked out because of xyz reasons.
The problem is that you are implying leavers are all ragequitters when this is in fact plain out not true.
It comes down too you have a specific type of people you want to use the queue system and bugger all the rest that do not want to play your way. You want to force people that do not play your way ( and therefore may ragequit on you) to party up some other way like via the zone chat so you can have the queue system to yourself.
Like I posted earlier there a way to make it fair for everyone no matter how they want to play or run a dungeon. It may make it slightly less efficient to ONE PARTICULAR GROUP or playstyle but overall makes it fairer for ALL playstyles.
Your changing the argument here. Now you are saying the penalty is more to whittle down dps players by focusing on eliminating trolls or people you think should be locked out because of xyz reasons.
The problem is that you are implying leavers all all ragequitters when this is in fact plain out not true.
It comes down too you have a specific type of people you want to use the queue system and bugger all the rest that do not want to play your way. You want to force people that do not play your way ( and therefore may ragequit on you) to party up some other way like via the zone chat so you can have the queue system to yourself.
No, you misunderstood the original point in the first place by focusing too much on the example, then try to twist it and give it an ad hominem angle. If I do not say "I personally think" or "I personally feel" or something like that, which I HAVE used for one comment, what I am typing is not necessarily how I personally feel about the subject. So can it with the ridiculous personal attacks.
The point is that having a perfect queue system set up doesn't fix all problems associated with the queues. You have factors that don't have anything to do with the queue system itself, like existing class issues (AN EXAMPLE), player wants (ANOTHER EXAMPLE), and user error, like people queuing for a 45 minute dungeon when they only have 20 minutes available (OH LOOK, ANOTHER EXAMPLE.)
There's nothing you can do to further better the queue system because it's not the queue system itself causing this problem. But everyone's experiencing these issues while using the queue system so they attribute them to it anyway. So the options available are for the developers to sit and do nothing or put in a penalty.
Or is this just another waste of a post explaining, because you're going to nitpick one particular line or paragraph and turn it into another personal attack?
No, you misunderstood the original point in the first place by focusing too much on the example, then try to twist it and give it an ad hominem angle. If I do not say "I personally think" or "I personally feel" or something like that, which I HAVE used for one comment, what I am typing is not necessarily how I personally feel about the subject. So can it with the ridiculous personal attacks.
The point is that having a perfect queue system set up doesn't fix all problems associated with the queues. You have factors that don't have anything to do with the queue system itself, like existing class issues (AN EXAMPLE), player wants (ANOTHER EXAMPLE), and user error, like people queuing for a 45 minute dungeon when they only have 20 minutes available (OH LOOK, ANOTHER EXAMPLE.)
There's nothing you can do to further better the queue system because it's not the queue system itself causing this problem. But everyone's experiencing these issues while using the queue system so they attribute them to it anyway. So the options available are for the developers to sit and do nothing or put in a penalty.
Or is this just another waste of a post explaining, because you're going to nitpick one particular line or paragraph and turn it into another personal attack?
You misunderstand, when I say "you" or "your playstyle" I do not mean you personally, I just mean your points you are defending/advocating. There are no personal attack what so ever in my posts.
Your response here clearly shows me you are taking your position on this very personally and view any counter argument personal.
Please don't start with the silly ad hominem accusations, it's such a lame <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> argument to use when someone is simply trying to give examples to a point he is trying to make or to counter his opponents examples.
Bah the queuing system is broken and this is what is causing friction between players mostly.
I advocate fixing this broken <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> junk rather than doing some minor cosmetic changes to it and slapping a dang band aid that won't fix anything at all.
I have never said the queue system needs to be perfect and have even said it wont make all the issues go completely away but it will sure as hell make em more acceptable than what a stupid leaver penalty will do.
Oh and wtf? I brought in class examples? Your the one that went on about but but if the GF rage-quits we will have to wait a long time and then after I countered that argument YOU went on about it being about a lack of GF/DC vs dps yadayada.
It's not moot, because what if it's the GF or DC that ragequits or goes into a "I'm the one holding the group together" snit after loot <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and gets called out on it? You're stuck waiting in those cases. Having a perfect queue system does not automagically create players of needed class specializations that are willing to queue, on demand, and not every game has the insane volume of players that WoW has. That's a totally different animal separate from the queue system.
The leavers penalty was suggested to try and stop people from quitting parties half way though or after a wipe at end boss so the others in the parties don't have their time wasted as it is pretty much not possible to shortman delves and you can't replace the person that left.
The most simple and effective fix to this is to allow us to requeue from inside the dungeon so we can replace quitters. Is this a perfect solution?
No, it sure as hell is better than forcing some kind of penalty on people that quit the party when they have had enough for w/e reasons, good or bad.
In our discussion of this you somehow went from this being a way to try and stopping leavers that waste our time and "grief us" to being about " the ratio of DPS to Tank/Healer" which you have decided is what the penalty should be about "because, amazingly enough, most of the trolls that do it are DPS".
Bleh I have said my piece and will state again adding a band aid like a leavers penalty is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and won't fix queuing issues because the issues is we can't replace people that quit once inside a delve period.
The gf/dc ratio to dps is not related to this issues at all and has nothing to do with a leavers penalty. The same thing happens in DDO where in some raids you are stuck waiting for a cleric or fvs etc yet no one complains that the root of the problem is rage quitting or people that leave the parties for w/e reason.
Anyhoot this is the last I will post about this with you so as to avoid getting this thread locked and so others may express their points of view.
Yes, because ignoring part of what I say, putting words in my mouth, and then following up with you/your language that you can easily avoid is not attempting to make a personal attack, when I'm trying to explain why people would be pro-penalty when I personally don't care either way.
I'm not taking it personal.
I'm taking it frustrated because it looks like I'm wasting my time.
Yes, because ignoring part of what I say, putting words in my mouth, and then following up with you/your language that you can easily avoid is not attempting to make a personal attack, when I'm trying to explain why people would be pro-penalty when I personally don't care either way.
I'm not taking it personal.
I'm taking it frustrated because it looks like I'm wasting my time.
Whatever. Good day to you too.
Bah I addressed your first link later on and explained more what I meant.
As to your second link again I did not mean you personally but the pro penalty side that your defending. All the pro penalty argument sounds like that to me.
I like the 'Looking for Dungeon Party' idea -- it's less random and should result in better groups I would think. Even better than having to type out some sentence describing your run would be some checkboxes or sliders or something. Like:
[X] We're taking it slow and casual
[ ] This is a speed run
You know what mmorpgs need? A player rating system. Rate your fellow player after a dungeon, or when someone leaves.
Player was good, helpful and a pleasure to play with? You up his rating
Player was notoriously bad and refused to take advice, was foulmouthed, ragequit and was generally an acidic player? Down his rating.
Get in matchmaker, get to see your matchmade group and each player's rating and then decide on wether you're cool with the group. Avoid all those nasty players without having to ditch matchmaker.
0
elawynMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
You know what mmorpgs need? A player rating system. Rate your fellow player after a dungeon, or when someone leaves.
Player was good, helpful and a pleasure to play with? You up his rating
And within days (if not hours), all the folks who play in guilds would have a top rating regardless of whether they're 'good, helpful' etc.
That and folks will be spamming "LFG, you rate me high I'll rate you high". Then they go into the lowest level dungeon, zerg through it at lightning speed, rate everyone "good, helpful etc" , rinse and repeat.
It's been said already but I will reiterate. It is a queuing system not a grouping tool and as such leaving your place in the queue and going to the back of the line is already a penalty and should not be penalised further. In PvP a loss will award you 525 glory points when the event is running. I've been on the 'winning' side where the opposition was a 5-boxer who never left the camp-fire. His characters would have gained 525 each while my side got a 10th that amount.
1. Until we get a group finder that allows us to specify our roles and then matches groups by those roles, no penalty should be given to anyone who decides to leave a dungeon party.
2. The PvP issue is being addressed in a future patch. Hopefully the exploitation of PvP matches will decrease after that and again mean that no penalty is needed.
Well, time to throw a 24" boot into the mix. Several fixes are needed here. I like some of the stuff a lot of you have come up with on all sides of the debate. The queue system definitely needs fixing. I'm also for an option filled Find Party system like Pilf3r and others suggest. However I do not agree we need to wait for Cryptic to code anything. I can be swayed, but the way I see it now:
I like the idea of a penalty for quiters. In fact - if you quit, you're done PvPin' for the day.
Afk farm penalty timer. If you're team is caught napping, 7 day penalty. Twice, you're account is up for review.
Thats my penalty. Aandre dont play nice with cheaters! Naturally that pretty much kills off many cheaters.
Now - can we come up with any examples of innocents that would get hurt with these penalties, and solutions to minimize any impact to players who are playing honestly?
Ya its really annoying when your in a group and they all start to suck really bad. Instead of waisting my time i would leave the group. It goes both ways so no i dont think there should be a time out deal.
I have to agree with this, Sometimes it's best to leave if and cut your losses deaths cost a lot (major injury kits) and potions too. Sometimes it is best to just leave then have to spent yet more gold on kits and potions wile your total gold just keeps going down...
You can often tell before you get to the final boss weather your party will make it through or not based on how your teammates are playing.
World of Warcraft has a good system for leavers and that's the debuff. a 15 Minute debuff that prevents queuing into PvP or Dungeons.
Also for dungeons after 15 minutes, you can leave the team or request to be kicked form the party and not receive the debuff. The purpose of this 15 minute timer is if you get to a boss and your team can't complete dungeon. Players can leave and system queues for a filler player.
The filler player is being added next patch and will fix the issue of runs being dead after your healers/dps drop because of a couple wipes.
I know I am going to get Flamed for this but I feel there should be a system in place/ Forum Wall if you will that Exploiters, Shortcut- Farmers, Loot Ninja's, ETC.... can be posted on so others can see and add them to their ignore list so good people don't have to put up with these types of actions.
Leaving a group because they don't use a known shortcut or exploit in a dungeon, leaving a PvP because they think they should have made it to a certain point in a certain amount of time, if someone is a loot Ninja I wouldn't want to group with them, but how would I know they were until I had to experience it myself??? Then what happens I get on here and rant about the same experience someone all ready had with the same player.... if there was a list of abusers/exploiters, just plain sore losers then the people who like to play NWO like it was intended to be played would have a better experience and might take more time to list out the short comings in this game.
Doing it because we/they want to make the game better for all, and not exploit it as quick as possible before the bugs finally get fixed.
I think people should be put on some type of list for abuse in NWO, for all to see, let them come on and defend their actions they are accused of. Then maybe their attitudes will change.
Now - can we come up with any examples of innocents that would get hurt with these penalties, and solutions to minimize any impact to players who are playing honestly?
I shouldn't be penalized for leaving a group that is attempting to exploit a boss, and a system of penalties will do so since no new content will be exploit free.
I'd be happy if they simple made it easy to que in another player /class to COMPLETE the dungeon? Ther is NO reason to sit in a que for sometimes an hour, when this sort of thing happens, no matter if a power drop, or someone who got there panties in a wad and just left. Just make it so that hole can be filled... I don't know HOW many D's I have not gotten completed over this issue. Dureing the week I only have so much time to spare.... so IF i get qued in, I would really enjoy completing one for a change...
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Sir, were now surrounded"!
Thats great news son, now we can attack from ALL sides"!
I know I am going to get Flamed for this but I feel there should be a system in place/ Forum Wall if you will that Exploiters, Shortcut- Farmers, Loot Ninja's, ETC.... can be posted on so others can see and add them to their ignore list so good people don't have to put up with these types of actions.
Leaving a group because they don't use a known shortcut or exploit in a dungeon, leaving a PvP because they think they should have made it to a certain point in a certain amount of time, if someone is a loot Ninja I wouldn't want to group with them, but how would I know they were until I had to experience it myself??? Then what happens I get on here and rant about the same experience someone all ready had with the same player.... if there was a list of abusers/exploiters, just plain sore losers then the people who like to play NWO like it was intended to be played would have a better experience and might take more time to list out the short comings in this game.
Doing it because we/they want to make the game better for all, and not exploit it as quick as possible before the bugs finally get fixed.
I think people should be put on some type of list for abuse in NWO, for all to see, let them come on and defend their actions they are accused of. Then maybe their attitudes will change.
Just a thought is all........
Take care,
NO! This is a god aweful idea... think about what you just posted... good grief I raise hell with my kids for tattleing...
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Sir, were now surrounded"!
Thats great news son, now we can attack from ALL sides"!
Well, time to throw a 24" boot into the mix. Several fixes are needed here. I like some of the stuff a lot of you have come up with on all sides of the debate. The queue system definitely needs fixing. I'm also for an option filled Find Party system like Pilf3r and others suggest. However I do not agree we need to wait for Cryptic to code anything. I can be swayed, but the way I see it now:
I like the idea of a penalty for quiters. In fact - if you quit, you're done PvPin' for the day.
Afk farm penalty timer. If you're team is caught napping, 7 day penalty. Twice, you're account is up for review.
Thats my penalty. Aandre dont play nice with cheaters! Naturally that pretty much kills off many cheaters.
Now - can we come up with any examples of innocents that would get hurt with these penalties, and solutions to minimize any impact to players who are playing honestly?
My big gripe with a leavers penalty is for the pve side, there is just to many reasons or variables why a person would want to quit that are legit to be able to effectively police who really deserves a penalty or not.
For pvp well can't say I care much but for those that do again there are many legit reason to either quit or go afk. Phone calls unexpected company, you have young children etc etc.
I have a 4 year old and anyone that has children knows they have the knack of needing your attention at the worse possible times, they fell and hurt them selves, peed themselves or pooped in their pants, they spilled grape juice all over the rug etc etc.
These penalties are fine and dandy if you stick to guild runs/channels but in practice I think they may not be so great if you pug often. I don't care if cheaters get whats coming to them I am just worried collateral damage will be much higher than expected if such a thing goes live.
There is always somethings or situations we don't think of in such applications.
World of Warcraft has a good system for leavers and that's the debuff. a 15 Minute debuff that prevents queuing into PvP or Dungeons.
Also for dungeons after 15 minutes, you can leave the team or request to be kicked form the party and not receive the debuff. The purpose of this 15 minute timer is if you get to a boss and your team can't complete dungeon. Players can leave and system queues for a filler player.
The filler player is being added next patch and will fix the issue of runs being dead after your healers/dps drop because of a couple wipes.
This on the other hand is something I could live with much better, it's more sensible than some of the other grossly punitive restrictions.
My big gripe with a leavers penalty is for the pve side, there is just to many reasons or variables why a person would want to quit that are legit to be able to effectively police who really deserves a penalty or not.
For pvp well can't say I care much but for those that do again there are many legit reason to either quit or go afk. Phone calls unexpected company, you have young children etc etc.
My penalties were designed to fix happenings in PvP content only. PvE has other needs.
In PvE its entirely different. On the PvE side I agree there definitely should be no penalty, as a party leader can boot the piker and should be able to refill spot with another willing. We need a real LFM system... equal to or better then DDOs.
PvP is a different environment (its a fight vs all human sides), with different expectations and different problems (blatant afk/bots which need to be defeated) which require different safeguards (penalties and timers).
Unfortunately any successful fix is going to involve some sacrifice in order to arrive at a more fair landscape for everybody.
I shouldn't be penalized for leaving a group that is attempting to exploit a boss, and a system of penalties will do so since no new content will be exploit free.
Ahh very true, I agree 100% in PvE. Im talking only about PvP penalties. The needs to be unique rules for PvE because both sides are human and unfortunately unlike PC artificial intelligence.. humans can lie and cheat.
PvE is a completely different set of circumstances.
NO, no and let me repeat this again NO!!! We do not need a leaver penalty. We do NOT need a system that discourages leavers. We need a system that ENCOURAGES people to stay in an instance. What we need is for the game to fixed. Fix the shortcuts, fix the exploits. Have groups get back filled when someone leaves for whatever reason. You put in a penalty for leavers and you will kill the game....well if this patch doesn't do that first. I for one am NOT wasting an hour of time on a pug group where the CW thinks he's single target dps, the rogue uses smoke and DOESNT single target dps, the gwf isn't clearing adds and the tank doesn't use enforced threat to grab agro. You think that's an exaggeration but I have seen it all in one fail pug after another. Put in a leaver penalty and watch myself and many many like me simply walk away from this game.
It really is a tricky thing ... My first reaction to the question was lets get replacement any place in the dungeon then it does not seem fair to the newcomer if he join a disbanding party. I agree with the view that the priority is not punishment, but alleviating the player that get stranded in the middle of a dungeon. So before punishing people that leave, I think a few things need to be implemented to make life easier on people that want to continue.
1. A disband group vote. This disband group all at once without penalty to anyone. This is the only way to get out without completing to escape punishment.
2. A voluntary replacement vote. If people feel they can continue and they have not reached the 3rd boss (the way the runs work, groups hit their dead end at this point usually) they can replace a player that left. This would put them on top of the queue and allow them to cherry pick the class they need.
3. Ensure the queue system provide at least 1 healer in any single party created and not more than 3 of a single class.
4. Remove kick power from leader.
This should ensure party would have a chance of survival from the get go and give tools to aleviate players that "need" to quit.
As punishment now, i think people can be expected to have to quit from time to time. Now how often? I think pretty often if we prevent those departure from hurting the parties too badly by implementing replacement measures. What we dont want ? Picky players. Some players who belong to needed classes (Cleric mostly atm) tend to play the prima donna and shop for their team. I think we could hurt them by imposing a karma stack on their invocation rewards.
The first quit is noted but not punished. The person get a free pass. The second one will incur a say 20% reduction on invocation until they do good to the gods by completing a PVE instance (until complete... cant permit group vote for disband or there will be group made just to clear those off). The buff stacks by 20% up to 100% and is applied to the whole account. One stack is removed for each completed instance.
Someone could think this is severe but people dont usually quit ... Some do alot though. If those players keep at it they will have to take the penalty or pre-build groups that fit their expectation in order to complete the needed dungeon runs. In either case the queue should see less of them.
0
ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
edited June 2013
Put in a voter penalty for leaving. This way when groups disband because they can't beat something, no one votes a penalty on someone else. When one person politely bows out, it's up to a vote whether he gets a penalty. When one person insults the group then drops without saying a word before the boss, give him a leaver penalty.
Comments
You just killed your argument you know. If most of the trolls are dps let em leave as you will still have your GF/DC and requeue and it shouldn't be too long because as you have just said dps is a dime a dozen.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
The bugs and crashs are there.
How many people ask for queue and they have to relog for be bugged? Im completly sure, that all people here, has been bugged any time, in pvp, pve, i dont mind.
So penalization NO. In 1 year, when the game ll be stable, it can be possible, but now, no.
No, I didn't. You're not getting the whole picture.
Putting in a penalty won't have any effect on the tank/healer players queuing. It's not intended to. They are the bottleneck for the queues anyway, and you can't get much easier than near-instant.
What it will do is make queuing easier for the DPS. They are the surplus, and the less DPS there are in queue, the sooner it'll get to the ones in queue.
Since you've already trimmed out the people who aren't willing to get in the queue because of the penalty, you're less likely to run into the ragequitters, so you can get the instance done (or at least an actual try), and progress.
Ya its really annoying when your in a group and they all start to suck really bad. Instead of waisting my time i would leave the group. It goes both ways so no i dont think there should be a time out deal.
Your changing the argument here. Now you are saying the penalty is more to whittle down dps players by focusing on eliminating trolls or people you think should be locked out because of xyz reasons.
The problem is that you are implying leavers are all ragequitters when this is in fact plain out not true.
It comes down too you have a specific type of people you want to use the queue system and bugger all the rest that do not want to play your way. You want to force people that do not play your way ( and therefore may ragequit on you) to party up some other way like via the zone chat so you can have the queue system to yourself.
Like I posted earlier there a way to make it fair for everyone no matter how they want to play or run a dungeon. It may make it slightly less efficient to ONE PARTICULAR GROUP or playstyle but overall makes it fairer for ALL playstyles.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
No, you misunderstood the original point in the first place by focusing too much on the example, then try to twist it and give it an ad hominem angle. If I do not say "I personally think" or "I personally feel" or something like that, which I HAVE used for one comment, what I am typing is not necessarily how I personally feel about the subject. So can it with the ridiculous personal attacks.
The point is that having a perfect queue system set up doesn't fix all problems associated with the queues. You have factors that don't have anything to do with the queue system itself, like existing class issues (AN EXAMPLE), player wants (ANOTHER EXAMPLE), and user error, like people queuing for a 45 minute dungeon when they only have 20 minutes available (OH LOOK, ANOTHER EXAMPLE.)
There's nothing you can do to further better the queue system because it's not the queue system itself causing this problem. But everyone's experiencing these issues while using the queue system so they attribute them to it anyway. So the options available are for the developers to sit and do nothing or put in a penalty.
Or is this just another waste of a post explaining, because you're going to nitpick one particular line or paragraph and turn it into another personal attack?
You misunderstand, when I say "you" or "your playstyle" I do not mean you personally, I just mean your points you are defending/advocating. There are no personal attack what so ever in my posts.
Your response here clearly shows me you are taking your position on this very personally and view any counter argument personal.
Please don't start with the silly ad hominem accusations, it's such a lame <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> argument to use when someone is simply trying to give examples to a point he is trying to make or to counter his opponents examples.
Bah the queuing system is broken and this is what is causing friction between players mostly.
I advocate fixing this broken <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> junk rather than doing some minor cosmetic changes to it and slapping a dang band aid that won't fix anything at all.
I have never said the queue system needs to be perfect and have even said it wont make all the issues go completely away but it will sure as hell make em more acceptable than what a stupid leaver penalty will do.
Oh and wtf? I brought in class examples? Your the one that went on about but but if the GF rage-quits we will have to wait a long time and then after I countered that argument YOU went on about it being about a lack of GF/DC vs dps yadayada.
QFT
The leavers penalty was suggested to try and stop people from quitting parties half way though or after a wipe at end boss so the others in the parties don't have their time wasted as it is pretty much not possible to shortman delves and you can't replace the person that left.
The most simple and effective fix to this is to allow us to requeue from inside the dungeon so we can replace quitters. Is this a perfect solution?
No, it sure as hell is better than forcing some kind of penalty on people that quit the party when they have had enough for w/e reasons, good or bad.
In our discussion of this you somehow went from this being a way to try and stopping leavers that waste our time and "grief us" to being about " the ratio of DPS to Tank/Healer" which you have decided is what the penalty should be about "because, amazingly enough, most of the trolls that do it are DPS".
Bleh I have said my piece and will state again adding a band aid like a leavers penalty is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and won't fix queuing issues because the issues is we can't replace people that quit once inside a delve period.
The gf/dc ratio to dps is not related to this issues at all and has nothing to do with a leavers penalty. The same thing happens in DDO where in some raids you are stuck waiting for a cleric or fvs etc yet no one complains that the root of the problem is rage quitting or people that leave the parties for w/e reason.
Anyhoot this is the last I will post about this with you so as to avoid getting this thread locked and so others may express their points of view.
good day.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
Yes, because ignoring part of what I say, putting words in my mouth, and then following up with you/your language that you can easily avoid is not attempting to make a personal attack, when I'm trying to explain why people would be pro-penalty when I personally don't care either way.
I'm not taking it personal.
I'm taking it frustrated because it looks like I'm wasting my time.
Whatever. Good day to you too.
Bah I addressed your first link later on and explained more what I meant.
As to your second link again I did not mean you personally but the pro penalty side that your defending. All the pro penalty argument sounds like that to me.
So yeah nice try.
really is my last post this time
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
[X] We're taking it slow and casual
[ ] This is a speed run
And...
[ ] Must know the map
[X] Newbies ok
Player was good, helpful and a pleasure to play with? You up his rating
Player was notoriously bad and refused to take advice, was foulmouthed, ragequit and was generally an acidic player? Down his rating.
Get in matchmaker, get to see your matchmade group and each player's rating and then decide on wether you're cool with the group. Avoid all those nasty players without having to ditch matchmaker.
And within days (if not hours), all the folks who play in guilds would have a top rating regardless of whether they're 'good, helpful' etc.
That and folks will be spamming "LFG, you rate me high I'll rate you high". Then they go into the lowest level dungeon, zerg through it at lightning speed, rate everyone "good, helpful etc" , rinse and repeat.
1. Until we get a group finder that allows us to specify our roles and then matches groups by those roles, no penalty should be given to anyone who decides to leave a dungeon party.
2. The PvP issue is being addressed in a future patch. Hopefully the exploitation of PvP matches will decrease after that and again mean that no penalty is needed.
In short, carrots rather than sticks please.
I like the idea of a penalty for quiters. In fact - if you quit, you're done PvPin' for the day.
Afk farm penalty timer. If you're team is caught napping, 7 day penalty. Twice, you're account is up for review.
Thats my penalty. Aandre dont play nice with cheaters! Naturally that pretty much kills off many cheaters.
Now - can we come up with any examples of innocents that would get hurt with these penalties, and solutions to minimize any impact to players who are playing honestly?
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | NEVERWINTER GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
You can often tell before you get to the final boss weather your party will make it through or not based on how your teammates are playing.
Also for dungeons after 15 minutes, you can leave the team or request to be kicked form the party and not receive the debuff. The purpose of this 15 minute timer is if you get to a boss and your team can't complete dungeon. Players can leave and system queues for a filler player.
The filler player is being added next patch and will fix the issue of runs being dead after your healers/dps drop because of a couple wipes.
I know I am going to get Flamed for this but I feel there should be a system in place/ Forum Wall if you will that Exploiters, Shortcut- Farmers, Loot Ninja's, ETC.... can be posted on so others can see and add them to their ignore list so good people don't have to put up with these types of actions.
Leaving a group because they don't use a known shortcut or exploit in a dungeon, leaving a PvP because they think they should have made it to a certain point in a certain amount of time, if someone is a loot Ninja I wouldn't want to group with them, but how would I know they were until I had to experience it myself??? Then what happens I get on here and rant about the same experience someone all ready had with the same player.... if there was a list of abusers/exploiters, just plain sore losers then the people who like to play NWO like it was intended to be played would have a better experience and might take more time to list out the short comings in this game.
Doing it because we/they want to make the game better for all, and not exploit it as quick as possible before the bugs finally get fixed.
I think people should be put on some type of list for abuse in NWO, for all to see, let them come on and defend their actions they are accused of. Then maybe their attitudes will change.
Just a thought is all........
Take care,
" May The Wind be Always At Your Back "
I shouldn't be penalized for leaving a group that is attempting to exploit a boss, and a system of penalties will do so since no new content will be exploit free.
"Sir, were now surrounded"!
Thats great news son, now we can attack from ALL sides"!
NO! This is a god aweful idea... think about what you just posted... good grief I raise hell with my kids for tattleing...
"Sir, were now surrounded"!
Thats great news son, now we can attack from ALL sides"!
My big gripe with a leavers penalty is for the pve side, there is just to many reasons or variables why a person would want to quit that are legit to be able to effectively police who really deserves a penalty or not.
For pvp well can't say I care much but for those that do again there are many legit reason to either quit or go afk. Phone calls unexpected company, you have young children etc etc.
I have a 4 year old and anyone that has children knows they have the knack of needing your attention at the worse possible times, they fell and hurt them selves, peed themselves or pooped in their pants, they spilled grape juice all over the rug etc etc.
These penalties are fine and dandy if you stick to guild runs/channels but in practice I think they may not be so great if you pug often. I don't care if cheaters get whats coming to them I am just worried collateral damage will be much higher than expected if such a thing goes live.
There is always somethings or situations we don't think of in such applications.
This on the other hand is something I could live with much better, it's more sensible than some of the other grossly punitive restrictions.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
My penalties were designed to fix happenings in PvP content only. PvE has other needs.
In PvE its entirely different. On the PvE side I agree there definitely should be no penalty, as a party leader can boot the piker and should be able to refill spot with another willing. We need a real LFM system... equal to or better then DDOs.
PvP is a different environment (its a fight vs all human sides), with different expectations and different problems (blatant afk/bots which need to be defeated) which require different safeguards (penalties and timers).
Unfortunately any successful fix is going to involve some sacrifice in order to arrive at a more fair landscape for everybody.
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | NEVERWINTER GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
Ahh very true, I agree 100% in PvE. Im talking only about PvP penalties. The needs to be unique rules for PvE because both sides are human and unfortunately unlike PC artificial intelligence.. humans can lie and cheat.
PvE is a completely different set of circumstances.
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | NEVERWINTER GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
1. A disband group vote. This disband group all at once without penalty to anyone. This is the only way to get out without completing to escape punishment.
2. A voluntary replacement vote. If people feel they can continue and they have not reached the 3rd boss (the way the runs work, groups hit their dead end at this point usually) they can replace a player that left. This would put them on top of the queue and allow them to cherry pick the class they need.
3. Ensure the queue system provide at least 1 healer in any single party created and not more than 3 of a single class.
4. Remove kick power from leader.
This should ensure party would have a chance of survival from the get go and give tools to aleviate players that "need" to quit.
As punishment now, i think people can be expected to have to quit from time to time. Now how often? I think pretty often if we prevent those departure from hurting the parties too badly by implementing replacement measures. What we dont want ? Picky players. Some players who belong to needed classes (Cleric mostly atm) tend to play the prima donna and shop for their team. I think we could hurt them by imposing a karma stack on their invocation rewards.
The first quit is noted but not punished. The person get a free pass. The second one will incur a say 20% reduction on invocation until they do good to the gods by completing a PVE instance (until complete... cant permit group vote for disband or there will be group made just to clear those off). The buff stacks by 20% up to 100% and is applied to the whole account. One stack is removed for each completed instance.
Someone could think this is severe but people dont usually quit ... Some do alot though. If those players keep at it they will have to take the penalty or pre-build groups that fit their expectation in order to complete the needed dungeon runs. In either case the queue should see less of them.