Thread still going? Guess what, its still ID10T: USER ERROR that is the problem. Its not the guy bailing, its the group as a whole. WHOA! I know, huge concept. If someone leaves, it because....its not working out. Don't like your job...quit...BLAM! No real life penalty, no pay check except for what you earned AKA no loot from the boss. Don't like your gf/...split up...BLAM! No real life penalty regardless of what rumor baggage you might aquire AKA no penalty because there is another group out there.
Still don't get it? It is user error...you, the guy/gal/person who is b@tching about people bailing on you are the problem...STOP PUGGING! Why force someone who isn't enjoying the current moment to be penalized. If anything, when someone bails you should be punished a long with them for failing to keep them there because you are failing (fail together, fall together). Doesn't make sense? How about the hippy method...let it go, chill out, share a brownie, and find real friends instead of people on the street you will rarely ever group with again. Its you, the person who doesn't have REGULAR people to rely on that is the problem and you want your frustrations vented on who ever crossed you (rather petty and pathetic). Ever get cut off while driving your car and you yell at them through the open window...your venting your anger which is no different then your pathetic request for a leaving penalty.
Its easier to replace someone then continue your pathetic emo whining about someone hurting you in a video game. If the que had the ability to replace someone, you could...talk to them first before inviting a replacement, to let them know what they are expecting instead of the "bailing on last boss when someone was pulled " thing cause a free chance at phat loot is easier then waiting another 30 minutes only + spending 45 minutes to get to the end (assuming no exploit). So yeah...its basically the guys whining that are the problem not the dude leaving (it is you, cause 1. You still fail to make friends 2. You get emotionally hurt way to easy over a video game and believe that only your investment of time is worth more then everyone else...pathetic)...he left, giving an opening to cover the position he couldn't. Basicly, the system needs the ability to find replacements and you need to have the ability to socialize more to find more reliable people then "met them on the bus, never saw them again but **** he pissed me off when he got off" moments you rely on to much.
Obviously you are one of the leavers:rolleyes:. The group is not the problem, the leaver is the problem. Obviously your Mommy never taught you that if everyone else is doing one thing and you are the one doing another, you are the one with the problem. Somehow in your self-entitled little world you think it is OK to screw over 4 other people just because you are a quitter. That makes a whole lot of sense:rolleyes:.
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degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
Or this scenario:
Doing a DD recently as the only CW and doing a pretty dang good job controlling mobs. The leader was a total jerk, outright mocking me, making fun of me, degrading me and shaming me constantly.
So what did I do? Right before the end guy, I left. If he wants to treat the other people in his party like that, screw him.
Doing a DD recently as the only CW and doing a pretty dang good job controlling mobs. The leader was a total jerk, outright mocking me, making fun of me, degrading me and shaming me constantly.
So what did I do? Right before the end guy, I left. If he wants to treat the other people in his party like that, screw him.
That's totally worth a 30 minute leaver penalty.
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degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Really? I would have gladly stayed if the team leader showed some semblance of respect. Not much else in my power to do, was there? Endure more trash talk? He got what he deserved.
They would have to fix the broken queuing system before doing this, who wouldn't leave a group that doesn't have any clerics or 3 GWF's.
ding ding ding.. literally gave up yesterday during DD when I was put into groups with 4 CW or 4 TRs.
fix the party system asap.
allow replacement players to join a dungeon in progress!! if you must, give them like a 10 min debuff or something, like they can't use Daily attacks for 10 mins after joining a group if the dungeon is more than 50% complete etc... something to prevent abuse of the system, yet still allow groups to replace players who quit/disco/fell asleep (true story) etc...
Really? I would have gladly stayed if the team leader showed some semblance of respect. Not much else in my power to do, was there? Endure more trash talk? He got what he deserved.
He's saying that even if there was a 30 minute no-queue penalty, leaving near the end of a dungeon is totally worth HAMSTER over a ******* like that.
Really? I would have gladly stayed if the team leader showed some semblance of respect. Not much else in my power to do, was there? Endure more trash talk? He got what he deserved.
But the other 3 people got screwed too. I would have just finished the dungeon and then added him to your ignore list.
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degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
There is a devils advocate position here, and of course I am keen to take it up. Just offering this as a logical opposing point, wouldn’t a desertion penalty mean that I am effectively locked into my team? And if they turn out to be total goofs then I have tied myself to a certain loss and all the penalties that come with that?
And before you suggest that I do some sort of cost/risk analysis of the penalty of leaving vs. the penalty of staying with a group that is awful. I can’t know that until I have suffered more than I would if I had left and by then of course the choice becomes keep taking punishment or leave and take that penalty as well.
By any logical standard isn’t the best thing for me to do is to leave a group that is not working out even if there is a penalty? And so the scheme of punishing people who leave will not keep them from leaving. It will just ensure that their experience with the game is bad when they do. Is that the goal? Are we looking to just ruin people’s time for longer than it takes to re-que?
Is there any way to make it easier to replace people who do leave? Perhaps not in PVP, hard to just call timesies there. But I think punishing people will not keep the phenomena from happening, it will just make more people unhappy. And that cant be the outcome we are looking to achieve here.
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xcifuMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
If it can be implemented I would agree a person who is always leaving groups should be labeled as chronic. If a system that remembers disconnects / leaving groups could be implimented this could go a long way to fixing the problem.
By any logical standard, any sort of Deserter penalty should only be implemented once they give the party a vote option that lets them disband the entire party without triggering the penalty.
So then those that leave after 1 person has left and let their group down also get a penalty (since they had to leave because they couldn't finish). I hate when someone just ditches like that, but their are legitimate reasons for leaving and cutting your loses if say your group can't beat the boss. Also If someone is insulting me and being rude, then I don't want to have to stay in that group for the remainder of the dungeon. What about the one time when 4 others declined the queue and I somehow ended up being the only person to queue into castle never? I sure can't solo that.
I understand a penalty for leaving, but if your group really can't complete the dungeon then leaving shouldn't be penalized there.
By any logical standard, any sort of Deserter penalty should only be implemented once they give the party a vote option that lets them disband the entire party without triggering the penalty.
I'd suggest a leave penalty of 31,536,000 seconds. But that'd make a lot of people leave the game...
30 minutes looks like it should be enough. That's how Star Trek Online does things with its Special Task Force missions.
*sorry.... too impatient to read the thread in its entirety*
*sings* "I like Gammera! He's so neat!!! He is full of turtle meat!!!"
"Hah! You are doomed! You're only armed with that pathetic excuse for a musical instrument!!!" *the Savage Beast moments before Lonnehart the Bard used music to soothe him... then beat him to death with his Fat Lute*
I don't have a great solution. All I can tell you is that playing for half hour or more only to have someone leave at the eleventh hour is unfair. A person who does that should not be allowed to queue IMHO. Obviously there are exceptions and that is the problem. There is no way to check to see if the person has a legitimate reason.
One suggestion is a penalty after 3 desertions. This should cover the random emergency. It should also be way more than 30 minutes, more like 30 hours.
Having the queue replace the person is one huge thing that HAS to be implemented and soon.
No Party Leader/vote to kick option is another important thing too, IMO.
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phoenixsolaceMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
I think 30 minutes is fair. Even if you get into a group go all the way to the end boss and realize that it is not happening with this group. 30 minutes is enough time to alleviate some frustration from not completing the dungeon because the group doesn't work well/impatients/people wanting to exploit...ect. Its long enough to deter and short enough to refocus and regroup.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
I'd suggest a leave penalty of 31,536,000 seconds. But that'd make a lot of people leave the game...
30 minutes looks like it should be enough. That's how Star Trek Online does things with its Special Task Force missions.
*sorry.... too impatient to read the thread in its entirety*
My only problem with that is it doesn't solve rage quits in which the player logs out.
If players can still leave with the knowledge that they will simply do something else for a period of time it only limits the behavior. I actually ended up rage quitting for the first time ever this morning doing a 1v5 against a pre-made geared through the roof team and I ended up getting so angry I left, logged out and didn't log in again until hours later.
If a leaver penalty was in place I wouldn't have been punished because my anger actually made me watch TV rather than remain red-faced with rage at the computer screen. It's not uncommon and it essentially defeats the leaver penalty.
A 30 minute penalty is better than nothing but still isn't enough IMO.
So would a leaver limit of... um... that many seconds that I jokingly suggested would work?
Or perhaps a leaver penalty that increases each time you commit the offense. 30 minutes for the first time, and each time you leave for some reason it doubles until 24 hours is reached.
Yeah... I actually calculated how long a year would be in seconds. Let's hope Cryptic doesn't decide to make penalties THAT long....
*sings* "I like Gammera! He's so neat!!! He is full of turtle meat!!!"
"Hah! You are doomed! You're only armed with that pathetic excuse for a musical instrument!!!" *the Savage Beast moments before Lonnehart the Bard used music to soothe him... then beat him to death with his Fat Lute*
My only problem with that is it doesn't solve rage quits in which the player logs out.
If players can still leave with the knowledge that they will simply do something else for a period of time it only limits the behavior. I actually ended up rage quitting for the first time ever this morning doing a 1v5 against a pre-made geared through the roof team and I ended up getting so angry I left, logged out and didn't log in again until hours later.
If a leaver penalty was in place I wouldn't have been punished because my anger actually made me watch TV rather than remain red-faced with rage at the computer screen. It's not uncommon and it essentially defeats the leaver penalty.
A 30 minute penalty is better than nothing but still isn't enough IMO.
Would say for any sort of penalty, make it act like a buff, but undispellable. That means you'd have to be online in order for it to tick down.
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phoenixsolaceMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Would say for any sort of penalty, make it act like a buff, but undispellable. That means you'd have to be online in order for it to tick down.
Exactly what I would want.
30 Minutes would be fine but it shouldn't be "30 Minutes." It would be 30 minutes in game time. Perhaps and hour for dungeons.
Generally the punishment should prevent you from accessing the content for roughly the period of time in which you would have been playing it. For a dungeon 30 minutes would be, in my opinion, too short. 30 minutes for PvP might be adequate or maybe even too long.
Would say for any sort of penalty, make it act like a buff, but undispellable. That means you'd have to be online in order for it to tick down.
Deserter Debuff that requires in-game time to count down. If I remember correctly that is what WoW does with a 15 Minute timer. You must wait 15 minutes after leaving a PvP match before it's over.
15 minutes is more than enough time.
But what end up happening is players will just give up and sit in their spawn and wait out the match. As it will only take 10 minutes if no one helps cap bases and team 3 caps.
phoenixsolaceMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
should be an account wide deal too. Don't want the guy with 5 alts HAMSTER up a group 5 different times. Everyone will eventually have more than 1 level 60 character doing epic dungeons.
Well, buffs don't tick down while the character is offline, so that may not be necessary. It would also be pointless if they have multiple accounts anyway.
An alternate thought I had would be to put a stacking buff on someone that had multiple tiers:
A few stacks: Does nothing.
1st milestone: Cannot loot items
2nd milestone: Cannot receive PvP and hourly rewards (DD chest, invocations).
3rd milestone: Unable to queue for anything (but can physically walk to dungeons and enter those that way)
4th milestone: Account suspension (because if you get this far up when you can't even queue (and are thus stuck to pre-made groups)... yeah.) and needs GM review.
Then having it tick down gradually.
I doubt it'll fly with people though.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
Well, buffs don't tick down while the character is offline, so that may not be necessary. It would also be pointless if they have multiple accounts anyway.
An alternate thought I had would be to put a stacking buff on someone that had multiple tiers:
A few stacks: Does nothing.
1st milestone: Cannot loot items
2nd milestone: Cannot receive PvP and hourly rewards (DD chest, invocations).
3rd milestone: Unable to queue for anything (but can physically walk to dungeons and enter those that way)
4th milestone: Account suspension (because if you get this far up when you can't even queue (and are thus stuck to pre-made groups)... yeah.) and needs GM review.
Then having it tick down gradually.
I doubt it'll fly with people though.
Interesting...
But the big question would be how long does each "stack" take to dissipate and how many "stacks" would be adequate between each milestone.
That's certainly an interesting take though and shows great possibilities for the "forgiveness" system which I stated was an absolute necessity to any punishment system.
30 Minutes would be fine but it shouldn't be "30 Minutes." It would be 30 minutes in game time. Perhaps and hour for dungeons.
Generally the punishment should prevent you from accessing the content for roughly the period of time in which you would have been playing it. For a dungeon 30 minutes would be, in my opinion, too short. 30 minutes for PvP might be adequate or maybe even too long.
Let's cut peoples hands instead sounds only fair by the same logic ?
Interesting...
But the big question would be how long does each "stack" take to dissipate and how many "stacks" would be adequate between each milestone.
That's certainly an interesting take though and shows great possibilities for the "forgiveness" system which I stated was an absolute necessity to any punishment system.
1 in-game hour per stack, stack refreshes when a new one is added. Say the first milestone is 4.
Rest is arbitrary, could be as little as 2 and as much as 10.
We definitely need some penalties to start coming around.
If I join Temple of the Spider there's a near 100% chance that if you don't use the shortcut the person will leave. It's literally near impossible to play that map legitimately due to the leavers. Without any penalty they simply don't care but honestly to an extent that should be forgiven.
More important to me, and I can't believe I'm saying this, is PvP. I have literally spent the entirety of the last few days doing my PvP Daily with one of two three outcomes:
1) Both teams perform well, woohoo. Get to the end and barely win or lose.
2) My team gets a 25% lead early on, half of the enemy team leaves.
3) Enemy team gets a 25% lead early on, half of my team leaves.
PvP right now is littered with people who play for the first quarter and then simply leave and requeue. At the very least these people shouldn't be able to join another queue (any queue) until the PvP match they quit from is finished but ideally they should have some additional punishment enforced.
When you queue into something you are, for all intensive purposes, stating that you set <time> to do <activity> and aren't expecting to leave. Everybody is entitled to their emergencies or irritations once in a while. You can say this team sucks and leave occasionally and you can have an "darn I really need to go, sorry" moment every once in a while but as it stands both of these occur far too much and it hurts everybody.
I can't count how many times I've gotten to the last boss of a dungeon and heard "Sorry guys I have to go, good luck!" and while there's certainly jerks in the community who enjoy winning due to the enemy team quitting out it doesn't make the losing team or moral players from the winning team feel good about the experience.
We need systems to discourage this type of behavior.
I don't care what they do with pvp anymore but when you say give a penalty to leavers in pve what happens when your in a pug and the team isn't good, either not the ideal team make-up or the team just isn't working well together and can't defeat the end boss and his countless adds?
Most peeps in pugs will leave after a few tries and wipes rather than waste resources (pots and kits) so what happens they all get a leavers penalty?
Sorry but for the pve side this doesn't seem well thought out.
You will end up with peeps wasting time to avoid the penalty when the team has no chance or peeps with a penalty because some of the pug wanted to glitch and exploit and some don't want to do it that way etc etc
Sorry but any punitive system put in place, especially like what teykos suggested, will make even more people leave the game.
Dunno but the game has enough problems and issues without adding in more.
Thirty minutes is not nearly enough of a penalty to prevent leavers. It should be at least one hour with two hours being the more applicable penalty to effectively prevent the behavior.
I think an hour is good if someone has to leave for a legit issue an hour won't mean anything and that's fair imo... someone that rage quits or wants to reque will think twice imo.... Like someone else said though what do you do about people that decide to stay and grief their own team? Boot them then they get to reque right away? They get the boot then a one hour penalty? Then you get a couple people that don't like someone for whatever reason such as they are not a great player then they get que banned for an hour too? meh.... I think someone said something about only going into a que with guild members.... probably your best bet imo....yeah I know it's not fair that you should be required to join a guild to get a good group... but what are the real alternatives? I don't see any tbh
I don't care what they do with pvp anymore but when you say give a penalty to leavers in pve what happens when your in a pug and the team isn't good, either not the ideal team make-up or the team just isn't working well together and can't defeat the end boss and his countless adds?
Most peeps in pugs will leave after a few tries and wipes rather than waste resources (pots and kits) so what happens they all get a leavers penalty?
Sorry but for the pve side this doesn't seem well thought out.
You will end up with peeps wasting time to avoid the penalty when the team has no chance or peeps with a penalty because some of the pug wanted to glitch and exploit and some don't want to do it that way etc etc
Sorry but any punitive system put in place, especially like what teykos suggested, will make even more people leave the game.
Dunno but the game has enough problems and issues without adding in more.
No one's going to cater to the group being "not the ideal team make-up" as an actual problem considering how heavily inflexible different people can be about what "the ideal team" is. Someone needing an "ideal team" would be making a pre-made group anyway, making it a moot point.
And as I said earlier, by any logical standard, any sort of Deserter penalty should only be implemented once they give the party a vote option that lets them disband the entire party without triggering the penalty.
Comments
Obviously you are one of the leavers:rolleyes:. The group is not the problem, the leaver is the problem. Obviously your Mommy never taught you that if everyone else is doing one thing and you are the one doing another, you are the one with the problem. Somehow in your self-entitled little world you think it is OK to screw over 4 other people just because you are a quitter. That makes a whole lot of sense:rolleyes:.
Doing a DD recently as the only CW and doing a pretty dang good job controlling mobs. The leader was a total jerk, outright mocking me, making fun of me, degrading me and shaming me constantly.
So what did I do? Right before the end guy, I left. If he wants to treat the other people in his party like that, screw him.
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
That's totally worth a 30 minute leaver penalty.
Really? I would have gladly stayed if the team leader showed some semblance of respect. Not much else in my power to do, was there? Endure more trash talk? He got what he deserved.
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
ding ding ding.. literally gave up yesterday during DD when I was put into groups with 4 CW or 4 TRs.
fix the party system asap.
allow replacement players to join a dungeon in progress!! if you must, give them like a 10 min debuff or something, like they can't use Daily attacks for 10 mins after joining a group if the dungeon is more than 50% complete etc... something to prevent abuse of the system, yet still allow groups to replace players who quit/disco/fell asleep (true story) etc...
this is basic MMO 101 stuff here folks...
He's saying that even if there was a 30 minute no-queue penalty, leaving near the end of a dungeon is totally worth HAMSTER over a ******* like that.
But the other 3 people got screwed too. I would have just finished the dungeon and then added him to your ignore list.
Yep!
/10char
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
And before you suggest that I do some sort of cost/risk analysis of the penalty of leaving vs. the penalty of staying with a group that is awful. I can’t know that until I have suffered more than I would if I had left and by then of course the choice becomes keep taking punishment or leave and take that penalty as well.
By any logical standard isn’t the best thing for me to do is to leave a group that is not working out even if there is a penalty? And so the scheme of punishing people who leave will not keep them from leaving. It will just ensure that their experience with the game is bad when they do. Is that the goal? Are we looking to just ruin people’s time for longer than it takes to re-que?
Is there any way to make it easier to replace people who do leave? Perhaps not in PVP, hard to just call timesies there. But I think punishing people will not keep the phenomena from happening, it will just make more people unhappy. And that cant be the outcome we are looking to achieve here.
I understand a penalty for leaving, but if your group really can't complete the dungeon then leaving shouldn't be penalized there.
This is a sensible idea.
30 minutes looks like it should be enough. That's how Star Trek Online does things with its Special Task Force missions.
*sorry.... too impatient to read the thread in its entirety*
"Hah! You are doomed! You're only armed with that pathetic excuse for a musical instrument!!!" *the Savage Beast moments before Lonnehart the Bard used music to soothe him... then beat him to death with his Fat Lute*
One suggestion is a penalty after 3 desertions. This should cover the random emergency. It should also be way more than 30 minutes, more like 30 hours.
Having the queue replace the person is one huge thing that HAS to be implemented and soon.
No Party Leader/vote to kick option is another important thing too, IMO.
My only problem with that is it doesn't solve rage quits in which the player logs out.
If players can still leave with the knowledge that they will simply do something else for a period of time it only limits the behavior. I actually ended up rage quitting for the first time ever this morning doing a 1v5 against a pre-made geared through the roof team and I ended up getting so angry I left, logged out and didn't log in again until hours later.
If a leaver penalty was in place I wouldn't have been punished because my anger actually made me watch TV rather than remain red-faced with rage at the computer screen. It's not uncommon and it essentially defeats the leaver penalty.
A 30 minute penalty is better than nothing but still isn't enough IMO.
Or perhaps a leaver penalty that increases each time you commit the offense. 30 minutes for the first time, and each time you leave for some reason it doubles until 24 hours is reached.
Yeah... I actually calculated how long a year would be in seconds. Let's hope Cryptic doesn't decide to make penalties THAT long....
"Hah! You are doomed! You're only armed with that pathetic excuse for a musical instrument!!!" *the Savage Beast moments before Lonnehart the Bard used music to soothe him... then beat him to death with his Fat Lute*
Would say for any sort of penalty, make it act like a buff, but undispellable. That means you'd have to be online in order for it to tick down.
this +1
/10char
Exactly what I would want.
30 Minutes would be fine but it shouldn't be "30 Minutes." It would be 30 minutes in game time. Perhaps and hour for dungeons.
Generally the punishment should prevent you from accessing the content for roughly the period of time in which you would have been playing it. For a dungeon 30 minutes would be, in my opinion, too short. 30 minutes for PvP might be adequate or maybe even too long.
Deserter Debuff that requires in-game time to count down. If I remember correctly that is what WoW does with a 15 Minute timer. You must wait 15 minutes after leaving a PvP match before it's over.
15 minutes is more than enough time.
But what end up happening is players will just give up and sit in their spawn and wait out the match. As it will only take 10 minutes if no one helps cap bases and team 3 caps.
An alternate thought I had would be to put a stacking buff on someone that had multiple tiers:
A few stacks: Does nothing.
1st milestone: Cannot loot items
2nd milestone: Cannot receive PvP and hourly rewards (DD chest, invocations).
3rd milestone: Unable to queue for anything (but can physically walk to dungeons and enter those that way)
4th milestone: Account suspension (because if you get this far up when you can't even queue (and are thus stuck to pre-made groups)... yeah.) and needs GM review.
Then having it tick down gradually.
I doubt it'll fly with people though.
Interesting...
But the big question would be how long does each "stack" take to dissipate and how many "stacks" would be adequate between each milestone.
That's certainly an interesting take though and shows great possibilities for the "forgiveness" system which I stated was an absolute necessity to any punishment system.
Let's cut peoples hands instead sounds only fair by the same logic ?
1 in-game hour per stack, stack refreshes when a new one is added. Say the first milestone is 4.
Rest is arbitrary, could be as little as 2 and as much as 10.
I don't care what they do with pvp anymore but when you say give a penalty to leavers in pve what happens when your in a pug and the team isn't good, either not the ideal team make-up or the team just isn't working well together and can't defeat the end boss and his countless adds?
Most peeps in pugs will leave after a few tries and wipes rather than waste resources (pots and kits) so what happens they all get a leavers penalty?
Sorry but for the pve side this doesn't seem well thought out.
You will end up with peeps wasting time to avoid the penalty when the team has no chance or peeps with a penalty because some of the pug wanted to glitch and exploit and some don't want to do it that way etc etc
Sorry but any punitive system put in place, especially like what teykos suggested, will make even more people leave the game.
Dunno but the game has enough problems and issues without adding in more.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
I think an hour is good if someone has to leave for a legit issue an hour won't mean anything and that's fair imo... someone that rage quits or wants to reque will think twice imo.... Like someone else said though what do you do about people that decide to stay and grief their own team? Boot them then they get to reque right away? They get the boot then a one hour penalty? Then you get a couple people that don't like someone for whatever reason such as they are not a great player then they get que banned for an hour too? meh.... I think someone said something about only going into a que with guild members.... probably your best bet imo....yeah I know it's not fair that you should be required to join a guild to get a good group... but what are the real alternatives? I don't see any tbh
No one's going to cater to the group being "not the ideal team make-up" as an actual problem considering how heavily inflexible different people can be about what "the ideal team" is. Someone needing an "ideal team" would be making a pre-made group anyway, making it a moot point.
And as I said earlier, by any logical standard, any sort of Deserter penalty should only be implemented once they give the party a vote option that lets them disband the entire party without triggering the penalty.