The more i play this game and the more i read the forums. I become more and more convinced the actual number 1 issue with this game is that its an actionMMO. and not a D&D RPG.
Cryptic definitely needs to always keep in mind the D&D audience in this game, for it will make or break the overall success of the game. The mmo audience alone can't bring the prize home!
Same here. And as a 30+ year vet of the tabletop version, 4e is the first and only version of D&D where the classes are balanced. Every other version has fighters over level 9 being caddies for the wizard.
I was reading about the new expansion that will be released in the summer, and I saw this:
...And, we just announced Fury of the Feywild, our first content expansion for Neverwinter, which will all be, in classic D&D fashion, Modules.
I think that we've been a little unfair in regard of the implementation of D&D... they named the content expansions... *drum roll*... Modules. :rolleyes:
Anyways, I don't want to be unfair with cryptic, regardless of the lack of D&D 4e content, it is a successful MMORPG, and a lot of players are having fun with it.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"The harder the game, the better."
So what exactly, specifically, needs to be done to make this "More D&D and less whatever this is."?
If you ask me, being realistic, this is what I would like it to be like d&d 4e to start with:
Skills (Only a few, no checks, no progression,... pretty much useless at the moment)
Alignment (non existant at the moment)
Paragon Paths (closer to d&d4e and impactful... add more?)
... and of course, more classes (Ranger, Warlock, Warlord, Paladin, Barbarian, Bard,...) and class-build options (Browny Rogue, Battle Cleric,...) but that will come... in time.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"The harder the game, the better."
Same here. And as a 30+ year vet of the tabletop version, 4e is the first and only version of D&D where the classes are balanced. Every other version has fighters over level 9 being caddies for the wizard.
And the only reason its balanced is because they got rid of 75% of the options.
There are 2 main and contradicting complaints about new editions in D&D. That it isn't balanced, and that there aren't options. Each new edition of D&D was fairly balanced with less options, and then the splat books came out because people wanted more options. After that, being able to marry rules from different source together breaks the game and its not balanced.
Your statement was also incorrect for 2E - segmented casting balanced wizards when it was played correctly. Problem is most DMs didn't use it because it made the combat rounds take too long.
So what exactly, specifically, needs to be done to make this "More D&D and less whatever this is."?
Well off the top of my head, I would think having some sort of skill checks involved, AC hit or miss, tons of diverse spells to choose from...... and as im thinking of these things i realize it would be out of scope with the base game design. There limited with what they have created it seems to me.
But i do have some ideas that i think could be implemented with this current format:
Passive character growth for one, There seems to be an awful lot of emphasis on timers and cooldowns and gizmos... This does not supply a D&D feel. It supplies a Diablo3 feel.
I also think the way we lvl is way out of whack, and feels "unnatural" Theres no reason to have to go all the way to 60. Its not necessary. Give us 20-40 lvls, make them 3 times as hard to obtain. And twice as powerful.
Numbers scaling. Whats with all the 22000 type numbers. That number is not a D&D number. 50 dmg can be just as effective as 22000. Tone down the bizarre scaling.
And DM intervention. There needs to be a couple actual "eye in the sky" real time DMs on there now and again. Looking out for little RP pockets and getting involved directly either in a very small and limited way all the way up to whatever mechanics and design of the game will allow. It then gives RP a warmer D&D feel even when DMs are not present. It breeds a better quality of play, and gives RP some relevance at least.
And Dying theres just got to be more repercussions when dying. That does not feel like D&D when you lose nothing for kicking the bucket.
Beyond RP needs what would be the need for Alignments?
And as for skills any suggestions to how they could be implemented well?
In video games alignment doesnt ever mean much. Aside from build requirements. Which i think that would be awesome. Alignment and RP are generally closley related. As your playing out a state of mind, seems to me kinda hard to implement alignment. Jeez thats why i always hated playing paladins... grrr those selfless pricks form a tight little game pocket to play out of.
If you ask me, being realistic, this is what I would like it to be like d&d 4e to start with:
Skills (Only a few, no checks, no progression,... pretty much useless at the moment)
Alignment (non existant at the moment)
Paragon Paths (closer to d&d4e and impactful... add more?)
... and of course, more classes (Ranger, Warlock, Warlord, Paladin, Barbarian, Bard,...) and class-build options (Browny Rogue, Battle Cleric,...) but that will come... in time.
The 4th edition of D&D has 22 classes.Every class has around 3-4 specialisations.The classes are seperated to Leaders,Controlers,Damage Makers,Fighters(Tanks).So far we have that in the game.
The abilities are also exactly as they are in the 4th edition, sepereated in At Will,Daily etc etc etc abilities.So we have that too.
The Lore,Races,Classes,NPC Names,Areas Names are also exactly as in D&D Universe of Forgotten Realms.Salvatorre,wrote a new trilogy about the game.
The design of the areas,dungeons,etc etc are also D&D based,and honstly the best i ever seen....and i play many years MMOs and Pen and Paper RPGs.
The only that we dont have is Alligments and Dashes.That would have been problematic for an MMO of that style.And would have demanded a lot of work to do it.Imagine how many alternative solutions should have had a quest,depending the alligment.
Alligments and Dashes for me is for small scale RPGs.For small groups and not for an MMO.
The game is Based in the D&D Universe,but is not 100% D&D.But honestly i am more than happy for what they added.
Maybe the OP would prefer what Capcom announced at PAX a couple months ago.
Here's a couple D&D games for those who want to play strictly by the rules, because these games are loved so much for their mechanics that they're being remade; Tower of Doom and Shadow Over Mystara.
The 4th edition of D&D has 22 classes.Every class has around 3-4 specialisations.The classes are seperated to Leaders,Controlers,Damage Makers,Fighters(Tanks).So far we have that in the game.
The abilities are also exactly as they are in the 4th edition, sepereated in At Will,Daily etc etc etc abilities.So we have that too.
The Lore,Races,Classes,NPC Names,Areas Names are also exactly as in D&D Universe of Forgotten Realms.Salvatorre,wrote a new trilogy about the game.
The design of the areas,dungeons,etc etc are also D&D based,and honstly the best i ever seen....and i play many years MMOs and Pen and Paper RPGs.
The only that we dont have is Alligments and Dashes.That would have been problematic for an MMO of that style.And would have demanded a lot of work to do it.Imagine how many alternative solutions should have had a quest,depending the alligment.
Alligments and Dashes for me is for small scale RPGs.For small groups and not for an MMO.
The game is Based in the D&D Universe,but is not 100% D&D.But honestly i am more than happy for what they added.
First comment: Disagree.
Second comment: Disagree.
Third comment: Agree.
Fourth comment: Hmm, ok.
Fifth comment: 4e has less alignments than the previous versions, I think that it'd be fun to have more options for RP and for itemization related to alignment.
Sixth: Meh.
Seventh: It's far from 100%.
Maybe the OP would prefer what Capcom announced at PAX a couple months ago.
Here's a couple D&D games for those who want to play strictly by the rules, because these games are loved so much for their mechanics that they're being remade; Tower of Doom and Shadow Over Mystara.
If you ask me, being realistic, this is what I would like it to be like d&d 4e to start with:
Skills (Only a few, no checks, no progression,... pretty much useless at the moment)
Alignment (non existant at the moment)
Paragon Paths (closer to d&d4e and impactful... add more?)
... and of course, more classes (Ranger, Warlock, Warlord, Paladin, Barbarian, Bard,...) and class-build options (Browny Rogue, Battle Cleric,...) but that will come... in time.
In my opinion, none of those things will make this game any closer to DnD.
The first, as you sort of mentioned, we already have a cut down version - Dungeoneering/Nature/Arcane/Religion skills. You could argue that the crafting system adds further skills in order to make items, and realistically involves having other people doing the main work on them (Because our characters are Adventurers, and we're too busy to stay in town for weeks and months crafting items ourselves). Also, TRs can spot and disable traps, maybe they could expand on that and add locked chests to dungeons (which can be opened either by TRs or by Thief Kits). But what other use would skills have? Got any suggestions?
Alignments - our characters can follow deities who represent the Good and Neutral (or Unaligned) alignments, which could be argued to be a stand in for an actual alignment system. Anyway, IMHO, alignments are totally useless/irrelevant in an MMORPG (unless it's SWTOR, but that system has its own problems). Most people playing an MMORPG probably couldn't give a piece of excrement about alignments and following them, because most people playing MMORPGs are not even the least bit interested in actual role playing*.
(Remember also that the Alignment system in 4th Edition is a cut down system consisting only of LG, G, Unaligned, E, and CE anyway. So half the alignments are already represented in this game by way of gods.)
Paragon Paths and Classes. They've already said that more of these are slated for introduction at some point in the future, starting with probably Archer Ranger in or around Module One. It isn't like they can click their fingers and incorporate more instantly without enough development/lead time.
* Please note that the RPG part of the MMORPG acronym has a totally different meaning to the RPG in Pencil and Paper RPGs. In the former, RPG means your character has levels (or skills) and can improve over time with a certain amount of customisation (gear, a choice of feats and powers). In the latter RPG means that you take on the role of your character within the context of an interactive story/game, as narrated and refereed by a Dungeon Master. There are elements of progression and customisation from a stat and gear point of view, but the main point of a pencil and paper RPG is the role and playing that role in the context of the game. (For example: I ran Dungeons and Dragons last Saturday for my group, and there was like two combats in the entire game that came right near the end of the day. The rest of the day was all dedicated to role playing.)
Was hoping for something more like a beefed up Neverwinter Nights. Ok, I know it wasn't going to happen but one can dream. I have never played 4th Edition (AND NEVER WILL) so I can't say whether it is similar or not. But what I can say is that this is no where near what Mr Gygax considered Dungeons and Dragons. However, in saying all that, it is a fun game to play and I recommend giving it a go.
Was hoping for something more like a beefed up Neverwinter Nights. Ok, I know it wasn't going to happen but one can dream. I have never played 4th Edition (AND NEVER WILL) so I can't say whether it is similar or not. But what I can say is that this is no where near what Mr Gygax considered Dungeons and Dragons. However, in saying all that, it is a fun game to play and I recommend giving it a go.
Well, threads over. Someone invoked Gygax. Thats like a border line Goodwin law violation.
Your right, aiming to please the lowest common denominator. Thinking, reading, and writing is a thing of the past. Soon the young will be to lazy to push buttons, it will require too much effort on their part.
They already are... Iirc Donkey Kong Country on the Wii has a feature where if a section is too hard, you can hit a button and the computer will take over and clear that section of the level for you. How's that for lowest common denominator?
In my opinion, none of those things will make this game any closer to DnD.
The first, as you sort of mentioned, we already have a cut down version - Dungeoneering/Nature/Arcane/Religion skills. You could argue that the crafting system adds further skills in order to make items, and realistically involves having other people doing the main work on them (Because our characters are Adventurers, and we're too busy to stay in town for weeks and months crafting items ourselves). Also, TRs can spot and disable traps, maybe they could expand on that and add locked chests to dungeons (which can be opened either by TRs or by Thief Kits). But what other use would skills have? Got any suggestions?
Alignments - our characters can follow deities who represent the Good and Neutral (or Unaligned) alignments, which could be argued to be a stand in for an actual alignment system. Anyway, IMHO, alignments are totally useless/irrelevant in an MMORPG (unless it's SWTOR, but that system has its own problems). Most people playing an MMORPG probably couldn't give a piece of excrement about alignments and following them, because most people playing MMORPGs are not even the least bit interested in actual role playing*.
(Remember also that the Alignment system in 4th Edition is a cut down system consisting only of LG, G, Unaligned, E, and CE anyway. So half the alignments are already represented in this game by way of gods.)
Paragon Paths and Classes. They've already said that more of these are slated for introduction at some point in the future, starting with probably Archer Ranger in or around Module One. It isn't like they can click their fingers and incorporate more instantly without enough development/lead time.
* Please note that the RPG part of the MMORPG acronym has a totally different meaning to the RPG in Pencil and Paper RPGs. In the former, RPG means your character has levels (or skills) and can improve over time with a certain amount of customisation (gear, a choice of feats and powers). In the latter RPG means that you take on the role of your character within the context of an interactive story/game, as narrated and refereed by a Dungeon Master. There are elements of progression and customisation from a stat and gear point of view, but the main point of a pencil and paper RPG is the role and playing that role in the context of the game. (For example: I ran Dungeons and Dragons last Saturday for my group, and there was like two combats in the entire game that came right near the end of the day. The rest of the day was all dedicated to role playing.)
Skills - You said so, it's cut down, and we are forced to one of them depending on the class. Arcana, Religion and Nature are worthless at the moment, thievery lets you spot and disarm traps that deal no real damage (so it is useless), dungeoneering can be used only by fighters?... I think that skills are pretty much useless at the moment. We need more skills and the ability to choose them as it happens in 4e.
Alignment - Yes, they removed some alignments in 4e. In my opinion, they would improve the d&d environment, not only because of the addition of alternatives to complete quests but also improving the customization of your characters (evil auras, good auras, evil mounts, good mounts, and whatnot).
Paragon Paths - In 4e they are meant to be the replacement for multi-classing... That will never happen with the current system.
More classes, class-build options... Yeah, give them time.
Anyhow, as I said, I'm trying to be realistic. If you ask me what I would add to make this game closer to D&D without being realistic, then I would start by saying: Do not make it an MMO.
About MMORPG... How many are out there?, all the same, based in the same-old structure with the final objective of a grinding feast... I'm expecting some innovation... is that so hard to understand?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"The harder the game, the better."
In my opinion, none of those things will make this game any closer to DnD.
* Please note that the RPG part of the MMORPG acronym has a totally different meaning to the RPG in Pencil and Paper RPGs. In the former, RPG means your character has levels (or skills) and can improve over time with a certain amount of customisation (gear, a choice of feats and powers). In the latter RPG means that you take on the role of your character within the context of an interactive story/game, as narrated and refereed by a Dungeon Master. There are elements of progression and customisation from a stat and gear point of view, but the main point of a pencil and paper RPG is the role and playing that role in the context of the game. (For example: I ran Dungeons and Dragons last Saturday for my group, and there was like two combats in the entire game that came right near the end of the day. The rest of the day was all dedicated to role playing.)
Alignments are very much moot in any MMO, in my opinion. Consider how your character loots an enemy.
If you leave the departed with their own possessions (don't loot), you're good.
If you tend to intend to sell the loot to other people, you might be neutral....with some money-hungry chaotic tendencies (aka PWE alignment)
If you take better gear to equip yourself for more power, your more chaotic.
If you kill things just because they're there, minding their own business (all three "there"s in one sentence, kudos!) that's pretty evil.
And I always thought of a character's intentions for killing to determine good and evil. Haha, now try and ROLEPLAY your alignment via the quests you accept. Suddenly, you put an element of thought into WHY you're killing these monsters, if they deserve to die, what your God would think of you, etc..........................and then you realize it's not Farmville anymore. That's WAY too much thought for an average MMO player, especially when there's a zen market on the line encouraging killing, looting, and all 7 deadly sins (forgive the religious reference just this once, please) for everyone's virtuous "heroes" with morals as pure as newly driven snow.
Anyhow, as I said, I'm trying to be realistic. If you ask me what I would add to make this game closer to D&D without being realistic, then I would start by saying: Do not make it an MMO.
Even DDO was severely changed and restricted in order to convert 3.5 into an MMO. Even after many years of post-release addition there are still core races missing, many classes available in 3.5 not available, much more restricted skill list, many spells missing etc.
And it still has many of the balance issues that plagued 3.5.
All the extra options do is split the community into the hardcore min/maxers and the rest. This is not just a social split either: the munchkin characters can do levels of the game that the flavour/RP/first characters are unable to. That is before the actual skill in playing the character enters the equation.
If you're after a "D&D roleplaying experience" you will not find it in a computer game. The best you could get would be a "D&D gaming experience". MMOs are fundamentally different to PnP sessions. They aren't turn-based, and are far faster-paced than any PnP game could be.
Even DDO was severely changed and restricted in order to convert 3.5 into an MMO. Even after many years of post-release addition there are still core races missing, many classes available in 3.5 not available, much more restricted skill list, many spells missing etc.
And it still has many of the balance issues that plagued 3.5.
All the extra options do is split the community into the hardcore min/maxers and the rest. This is not just a social split either: the munchkin characters can do levels of the game that the flavour/RP/first characters are unable to. That is before the actual skill in playing the character enters the equation.
If you're after a "D&D roleplaying experience" you will not find it in a computer game. The best you could get would be a "D&D gaming experience". MMOs are fundamentally different to PnP sessions. They aren't turn-based, and are far faster-paced than any PnP game could be.
In my opinion DDO is bull****, in regard to D&D implementation, in comparison to NWN/NWN2. As I have said plenty of times, I was not hoping this game to be anything like a pnp d&d experience, but at least as it is stated in the advertisement of the game: "a rich d&d experience".
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"The harder the game, the better."
Skills - You said so, it's cut down, and we are forced to one of them depending on the class. Arcana, Religion and Nature are worthless at the moment, thievery lets you spot and disarm traps that deal no real damage (so it is useless), dungeoneering can be used only by fighters?... I think that skills are pretty much useless at the moment. We need more skills and the ability to choose them as it happens in 4e.
Well, my Neverwinter characters carry kits to all skills except their class skill. So I get to open almost all skill nodes and secret areas on all of my characters regardless of their class. (Though I have seen a couple of Dungoneering triggers that can only be used by the actual skill - they need to include more of those, and for all of the existing skills.)
What suggestions do you have for skills to include, and what purpose would they serve? How would you balance them?
Alignment - Yes, they removed some alignments in 4e. In my opinion, they would improve the d&d environment, not only because of the addition of alternatives to complete quests but also improving the customization of your characters (evil auras, good auras, evil mounts, good mounts, and whatnot).
Are we putting in a game mechanic for the sake of the game mechanic, or would this really improve the game? Clerics already have "aura like" abilities, and Cryptic have made it clear which side of the alignment divide they think PCs should be on (all the deities are LG, G, or Unaligned). If we're only supposed to be good or good leaning as far as alignment goes, is there really any need to incorporate alignments fully?
Also, if they did incorporate alignments more fully they'd have to redesign the game from the ground up - two factions, one good leaning, one evil leaning, new quests designed specifically with two or three ways of completing them (one evil one good one unaligned), and other ways in which alignment could effect game play. It would all be mechanical, and people would quickly work out which alignments allow them to maximise their characters (go min maxers, where would we be without you and your cookie cutter builds?!).
Anyhow, as I said, I'm trying to be realistic. If you ask me what I would add to make this game closer to D&D without being realistic, then I would start by saying: Do not make it an MMO.
On this, you and I agree wholeheartedly.
About MMORPG... How many are out there?, all the same, based in the same-old structure with the final objective of a grinding feast... I'm expecting some innovation... is that so hard to understand?
I'm personally looking forward to TESO, but I'm not expecting much in the way of innovation at the moment.
Neither NWN or NWN2 are MMORPG, they use persistent worlds yes, but they are not designed from the ground up as a MMO
You have a point there, but remember that they were based on D&D 3rd edition and D&D 3.5 respectively. This one is based on the MMORPG version (not really, but a simplified version) of D&D, aka D&D 4e. ^^
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"The harder the game, the better."
In my opinion DDO is bull****, in regard to D&D implementation, in comparison to NWN/NWN2. As I have said plenty of times, I was not hoping this game to be anything like a pnp d&d experience, but at least as it is stated in the advertisement of the game: "a rich d&d experience".
Your fighting a losing battle mate. What you want, really, even what i want is not gonna happen in this game. I contest that the goal of this game, the entire point of its release is to tap into the much larger community of actionMMO junkies. Which is wildly popular right now. WoC just must get a piece of the warcraft pie. Its worth more money then the buy it once completely customizable D&D games you refer to. I agree its awful, but this game is not designed for the D&D community. Its a move to grab at a larger audience. Unfortunately, mass popularity almost always equals a worse quality product in my experience.
Your fighting a losing battle mate. What you want, really, even what i want is not gonna happen in this game. I contest that the goal of this game, the entire point of its release is to tap into the much larger community of actionMMO junkies. Which is wildly popular right now. WoC just must get a piece of the warcraft pie. Its worth more money then the buy it once completely customizable D&D games you refer to. I agree its awful, but this game is not designed for the D&D community. Its a move to grab at a larger audience. Unfortunately, masses almost always equals a worse quality product in my experience.
I know, but... I'm having fun here, being all delusional. ^^
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"The harder the game, the better."
So what you're saying is.... it's an MMO? (Seriously, except for the random folks talking in fake-Olde-English accents as they /emote in the corner of an Inn, I've pretty much seen no "RP" in any MMO I've played in the last decade. Digital RPGs don't have a lot of "RP" to start with, but MMOs have even less. They're combat games. Of course, so are a lot of PnP campaigns, depending on the GM & players. You know, the age-old conflict between "roll players" and "role players" )
The RP in MMORPG does not refer to acting. Rather it refers to the mechanisms of leveling distinct combat roles that compliment each other in a group. What makes an rpg and rpg are the classes and how they mesh with each other in a group.
Though, that being, said a single-player rpg would also be about classes fulfilling distinct roles and over-coming challenges based on their unique ability sets.
For an action crpg, Neverwinter is quite similar to the 4E powers and abilities. And, again, it's in a D&d setting and follows the Neverwinter Campaign lore. It's unquestionably a D&D game firmly rooted in 4E lore.
Real-time combat will never be all that close to turn-based mechanics. I doubt a turn-based D&D MMO would be all that enjoyable.
I've enjoyed Neverwinter immensely. The D&D lore is stellar.
Playing a TR did not feel like playing a D&D Rogue.
I don't think my CW feels like a D&D Wizard.
I don't think my DC feels like a D&D Cleric.
But, running down a tight corridor being chased by a Gelatinous Cube or a Mimic is a blast and feels more like D&D than many other D&D crpgs I've played.
One of the things I hate most in Neverwinter is being pressured to use Repel in dungeons - as opposed to being able to maximize my Chill powers to freeze mobs for CC - as I would expect to be able to do in a P&P D&D game.
What I miss, IIRC, from NWN and DDO is the ability to use skill checks, like Bluff and Intimidate to overcome challenges rather than relying solely on combat.
What an MMOG should be able to accomplish is making players enjoy spending time in a fantasy world.
And Neverwinter excels at providing hours of entertainment in a D&D setting.
I typically don't care much about endgame play - but, I'm finding Neverwinter's endgame to be captivating.
And it's easy to have fun in-game while awaiting new content.
Plenty of time to add more D&D elements.
Comments
Same here. And as a 30+ year vet of the tabletop version, 4e is the first and only version of D&D where the classes are balanced. Every other version has fighters over level 9 being caddies for the wizard.
I think that we've been a little unfair in regard of the implementation of D&D... they named the content expansions... *drum roll*... Modules. :rolleyes:
Anyways, I don't want to be unfair with cryptic, regardless of the lack of D&D 4e content, it is a successful MMORPG, and a lot of players are having fun with it.
"The harder the game, the better."
If you ask me, being realistic, this is what I would like it to be like d&d 4e to start with:
Skills (Only a few, no checks, no progression,... pretty much useless at the moment)
Alignment (non existant at the moment)
Paragon Paths (closer to d&d4e and impactful... add more?)
... and of course, more classes (Ranger, Warlock, Warlord, Paladin, Barbarian, Bard,...) and class-build options (Browny Rogue, Battle Cleric,...) but that will come... in time.
"The harder the game, the better."
And the only reason its balanced is because they got rid of 75% of the options.
There are 2 main and contradicting complaints about new editions in D&D. That it isn't balanced, and that there aren't options. Each new edition of D&D was fairly balanced with less options, and then the splat books came out because people wanted more options. After that, being able to marry rules from different source together breaks the game and its not balanced.
Your statement was also incorrect for 2E - segmented casting balanced wizards when it was played correctly. Problem is most DMs didn't use it because it made the combat rounds take too long.
Beyond RP needs what would be the need for Alignments?
And as for skills any suggestions to how they could be implemented well?
Well off the top of my head, I would think having some sort of skill checks involved, AC hit or miss, tons of diverse spells to choose from...... and as im thinking of these things i realize it would be out of scope with the base game design. There limited with what they have created it seems to me.
But i do have some ideas that i think could be implemented with this current format:
Passive character growth for one, There seems to be an awful lot of emphasis on timers and cooldowns and gizmos... This does not supply a D&D feel. It supplies a Diablo3 feel.
I also think the way we lvl is way out of whack, and feels "unnatural" Theres no reason to have to go all the way to 60. Its not necessary. Give us 20-40 lvls, make them 3 times as hard to obtain. And twice as powerful.
Numbers scaling. Whats with all the 22000 type numbers. That number is not a D&D number. 50 dmg can be just as effective as 22000. Tone down the bizarre scaling.
And DM intervention. There needs to be a couple actual "eye in the sky" real time DMs on there now and again. Looking out for little RP pockets and getting involved directly either in a very small and limited way all the way up to whatever mechanics and design of the game will allow. It then gives RP a warmer D&D feel even when DMs are not present. It breeds a better quality of play, and gives RP some relevance at least.
And Dying theres just got to be more repercussions when dying. That does not feel like D&D when you lose nothing for kicking the bucket.
In video games alignment doesnt ever mean much. Aside from build requirements. Which i think that would be awesome. Alignment and RP are generally closley related. As your playing out a state of mind, seems to me kinda hard to implement alignment. Jeez thats why i always hated playing paladins... grrr those selfless pricks form a tight little game pocket to play out of.
+100 for class build options
The 4th edition of D&D has 22 classes.Every class has around 3-4 specialisations.The classes are seperated to Leaders,Controlers,Damage Makers,Fighters(Tanks).So far we have that in the game.
The abilities are also exactly as they are in the 4th edition, sepereated in At Will,Daily etc etc etc abilities.So we have that too.
The Lore,Races,Classes,NPC Names,Areas Names are also exactly as in D&D Universe of Forgotten Realms.Salvatorre,wrote a new trilogy about the game.
The design of the areas,dungeons,etc etc are also D&D based,and honstly the best i ever seen....and i play many years MMOs and Pen and Paper RPGs.
The only that we dont have is Alligments and Dashes.That would have been problematic for an MMO of that style.And would have demanded a lot of work to do it.Imagine how many alternative solutions should have had a quest,depending the alligment.
Alligments and Dashes for me is for small scale RPGs.For small groups and not for an MMO.
The game is Based in the D&D Universe,but is not 100% D&D.But honestly i am more than happy for what they added.
Here's a couple D&D games for those who want to play strictly by the rules, because these games are loved so much for their mechanics that they're being remade; Tower of Doom and Shadow Over Mystara.
http://www.destructoid.com/pax-capcom-breathes-new-life-into-d-d-arcade-classics-249384.phtml
Sarcasm aside, MMO's have some of the most toxic communities......
First comment: Disagree.
Second comment: Disagree.
Third comment: Agree.
Fourth comment: Hmm, ok.
Fifth comment: 4e has less alignments than the previous versions, I think that it'd be fun to have more options for RP and for itemization related to alignment.
Sixth: Meh.
Seventh: It's far from 100%.
Are you trying to justify what you have said with your last comment?. ^^
"The harder the game, the better."
In my opinion, none of those things will make this game any closer to DnD.
The first, as you sort of mentioned, we already have a cut down version - Dungeoneering/Nature/Arcane/Religion skills. You could argue that the crafting system adds further skills in order to make items, and realistically involves having other people doing the main work on them (Because our characters are Adventurers, and we're too busy to stay in town for weeks and months crafting items ourselves). Also, TRs can spot and disable traps, maybe they could expand on that and add locked chests to dungeons (which can be opened either by TRs or by Thief Kits). But what other use would skills have? Got any suggestions?
Alignments - our characters can follow deities who represent the Good and Neutral (or Unaligned) alignments, which could be argued to be a stand in for an actual alignment system. Anyway, IMHO, alignments are totally useless/irrelevant in an MMORPG (unless it's SWTOR, but that system has its own problems). Most people playing an MMORPG probably couldn't give a piece of excrement about alignments and following them, because most people playing MMORPGs are not even the least bit interested in actual role playing*.
(Remember also that the Alignment system in 4th Edition is a cut down system consisting only of LG, G, Unaligned, E, and CE anyway. So half the alignments are already represented in this game by way of gods.)
Paragon Paths and Classes. They've already said that more of these are slated for introduction at some point in the future, starting with probably Archer Ranger in or around Module One. It isn't like they can click their fingers and incorporate more instantly without enough development/lead time.
* Please note that the RPG part of the MMORPG acronym has a totally different meaning to the RPG in Pencil and Paper RPGs. In the former, RPG means your character has levels (or skills) and can improve over time with a certain amount of customisation (gear, a choice of feats and powers). In the latter RPG means that you take on the role of your character within the context of an interactive story/game, as narrated and refereed by a Dungeon Master. There are elements of progression and customisation from a stat and gear point of view, but the main point of a pencil and paper RPG is the role and playing that role in the context of the game. (For example: I ran Dungeons and Dragons last Saturday for my group, and there was like two combats in the entire game that came right near the end of the day. The rest of the day was all dedicated to role playing.)
Well, threads over. Someone invoked Gygax. Thats like a border line Goodwin law violation.
They already are... Iirc Donkey Kong Country on the Wii has a feature where if a section is too hard, you can hit a button and the computer will take over and clear that section of the level for you. How's that for lowest common denominator?
Skills - You said so, it's cut down, and we are forced to one of them depending on the class. Arcana, Religion and Nature are worthless at the moment, thievery lets you spot and disarm traps that deal no real damage (so it is useless), dungeoneering can be used only by fighters?... I think that skills are pretty much useless at the moment. We need more skills and the ability to choose them as it happens in 4e.
Alignment - Yes, they removed some alignments in 4e. In my opinion, they would improve the d&d environment, not only because of the addition of alternatives to complete quests but also improving the customization of your characters (evil auras, good auras, evil mounts, good mounts, and whatnot).
Paragon Paths - In 4e they are meant to be the replacement for multi-classing... That will never happen with the current system.
More classes, class-build options... Yeah, give them time.
Anyhow, as I said, I'm trying to be realistic. If you ask me what I would add to make this game closer to D&D without being realistic, then I would start by saying: Do not make it an MMO.
About MMORPG... How many are out there?, all the same, based in the same-old structure with the final objective of a grinding feast... I'm expecting some innovation... is that so hard to understand?
"The harder the game, the better."
Alignments are very much moot in any MMO, in my opinion. Consider how your character loots an enemy.
If you leave the departed with their own possessions (don't loot), you're good.
If you tend to intend to sell the loot to other people, you might be neutral....with some money-hungry chaotic tendencies (aka PWE alignment)
If you take better gear to equip yourself for more power, your more chaotic.
If you kill things just because they're there, minding their own business (all three "there"s in one sentence, kudos!) that's pretty evil.
And I always thought of a character's intentions for killing to determine good and evil. Haha, now try and ROLEPLAY your alignment via the quests you accept. Suddenly, you put an element of thought into WHY you're killing these monsters, if they deserve to die, what your God would think of you, etc..........................and then you realize it's not Farmville anymore. That's WAY too much thought for an average MMO player, especially when there's a zen market on the line encouraging killing, looting, and all 7 deadly sins (forgive the religious reference just this once, please) for everyone's virtuous "heroes" with morals as pure as newly driven snow.
+1 for truth
And it still has many of the balance issues that plagued 3.5.
All the extra options do is split the community into the hardcore min/maxers and the rest. This is not just a social split either: the munchkin characters can do levels of the game that the flavour/RP/first characters are unable to. That is before the actual skill in playing the character enters the equation.
If you're after a "D&D roleplaying experience" you will not find it in a computer game. The best you could get would be a "D&D gaming experience". MMOs are fundamentally different to PnP sessions. They aren't turn-based, and are far faster-paced than any PnP game could be.
In my opinion DDO is bull****, in regard to D&D implementation, in comparison to NWN/NWN2. As I have said plenty of times, I was not hoping this game to be anything like a pnp d&d experience, but at least as it is stated in the advertisement of the game: "a rich d&d experience".
"The harder the game, the better."
I guess that's why it's still being played more than a decade after it was released.... I'd say they got it right at Bioware.
Well, my Neverwinter characters carry kits to all skills except their class skill. So I get to open almost all skill nodes and secret areas on all of my characters regardless of their class. (Though I have seen a couple of Dungoneering triggers that can only be used by the actual skill - they need to include more of those, and for all of the existing skills.)
What suggestions do you have for skills to include, and what purpose would they serve? How would you balance them?
Are we putting in a game mechanic for the sake of the game mechanic, or would this really improve the game? Clerics already have "aura like" abilities, and Cryptic have made it clear which side of the alignment divide they think PCs should be on (all the deities are LG, G, or Unaligned). If we're only supposed to be good or good leaning as far as alignment goes, is there really any need to incorporate alignments fully?
Also, if they did incorporate alignments more fully they'd have to redesign the game from the ground up - two factions, one good leaning, one evil leaning, new quests designed specifically with two or three ways of completing them (one evil one good one unaligned), and other ways in which alignment could effect game play. It would all be mechanical, and people would quickly work out which alignments allow them to maximise their characters (go min maxers, where would we be without you and your cookie cutter builds?!).
On this, you and I agree wholeheartedly.
I'm personally looking forward to TESO, but I'm not expecting much in the way of innovation at the moment.
You have a point there, but remember that they were based on D&D 3rd edition and D&D 3.5 respectively. This one is based on the MMORPG version (not really, but a simplified version) of D&D, aka D&D 4e. ^^
"The harder the game, the better."
Your fighting a losing battle mate. What you want, really, even what i want is not gonna happen in this game. I contest that the goal of this game, the entire point of its release is to tap into the much larger community of actionMMO junkies. Which is wildly popular right now. WoC just must get a piece of the warcraft pie. Its worth more money then the buy it once completely customizable D&D games you refer to. I agree its awful, but this game is not designed for the D&D community. Its a move to grab at a larger audience. Unfortunately, mass popularity almost always equals a worse quality product in my experience.
Oh maybe because the game got advertised as free to play? :P
I know, but... I'm having fun here, being all delusional. ^^
"The harder the game, the better."
Though, that being, said a single-player rpg would also be about classes fulfilling distinct roles and over-coming challenges based on their unique ability sets.
For an action crpg, Neverwinter is quite similar to the 4E powers and abilities. And, again, it's in a D&d setting and follows the Neverwinter Campaign lore. It's unquestionably a D&D game firmly rooted in 4E lore.
Real-time combat will never be all that close to turn-based mechanics. I doubt a turn-based D&D MMO would be all that enjoyable.
I've enjoyed Neverwinter immensely. The D&D lore is stellar.
Playing a TR did not feel like playing a D&D Rogue.
I don't think my CW feels like a D&D Wizard.
I don't think my DC feels like a D&D Cleric.
But, running down a tight corridor being chased by a Gelatinous Cube or a Mimic is a blast and feels more like D&D than many other D&D crpgs I've played.
One of the things I hate most in Neverwinter is being pressured to use Repel in dungeons - as opposed to being able to maximize my Chill powers to freeze mobs for CC - as I would expect to be able to do in a P&P D&D game.
What I miss, IIRC, from NWN and DDO is the ability to use skill checks, like Bluff and Intimidate to overcome challenges rather than relying solely on combat.
What an MMOG should be able to accomplish is making players enjoy spending time in a fantasy world.
And Neverwinter excels at providing hours of entertainment in a D&D setting.
I typically don't care much about endgame play - but, I'm finding Neverwinter's endgame to be captivating.
And it's easy to have fun in-game while awaiting new content.
Plenty of time to add more D&D elements.