It's true that CA might be lower and my bonus from Charisma is additive i.e. 5% + 11%....but it doesn't seem likely. Still I'd love to see someone test it with a different Charisma score.
Well in other MMO's i've played mobs had a statline and gear like any player were armor pen were a factor. I dunno why this game should be any different. But if it's true like you say that it's just a mitigration stat and NPC's have no armour pen then Con might be one of the worst stats for a Fighter class. I'm currently at 27k HP with 23 Con, i have no gear that gives HP but with 3 points in the toughness feat. I don't really have a good sence on how much hp the other classes running around with, but i know CW and TR's can easily two shot me in PVP, so Con for that mather is crapp.
wicked strike: flanking
642 hits
15% crit
155.85 damage average (+12.59% and +13.42% respectively)
Do you have the feat that improves crit severity? I think the fact that crit damage and combat advantage is additive is skewing your results.
If your average damage is 138.42 with 16% crit, then your average non-crit damage is 123.59.
Reverse engineering your results to remove crit damage gives roughly 15%. You have to make an assumption about what the CA damage bonus actually is to get a result though so it's a bit self defeating. If you can remove crit results from your data and check the numbers again that would be awesome. Or send me the combat log and I'll do it.
You can rename the log file to log.csv and use IF and AND statements in excel to filter the log pretty easily.
e.g. have 4 rows with formula like these 4
=IF(AND($B1="P[200066686@5906925 Skree@freehugs9]",$G1="Magic Missile",$I1="Arcane",$J1=""),$K1,"")
=IF(AND($B1="P[200066686@5906925 Skree@freehugs9]",$G1="Magic Missile",$I1="Arcane",$J1="Critical"),"","")
=IF(AND($B1="P[200066686@5906925 Skree@freehugs9]",$G1="Magic Missile",$I1="Arcane",$J1="Flank"),$K1,"")
=IF(AND($B1="P[200066686@5906925 Skree@freehugs9]",$G1="Magic Missile",$I1="Arcane",$J1="Critical|Flank"),$K1,"")
@modimor the armor pen from con is a pvp stat, it doesnt grant armor pen, it makes enemy armor pen less effective, as indicated by the "-" if front of #, and as in pve no mobs have armor pen, it means it is a pvp only stat
just thought it needs to be posted correctly so the theorycrafting doesnt get skewed
That was suggested already.
Do you have any testing proof? I'd love to believe that was true, and it does sound logical.
@knoteskad really the only way to test it is in a pvp match where u know every1 or every1 is willing, because it needs to be tested in a controlled environment, if not every1 is willing, then there is no guarantee that it will even get done. even if u and 1 person from other team go off into a corner to test, either teammates will come over to see what ur doing over there and kill the ememy player, or you will be forever labled as a pvp leach for being afk and other ppl will "report spam" you for a while, which will lock you out of chat functions. if that happens, you can either keep playing and hope it stops soon (ish) or u can not log in to ur accnt for a week or so so that ppl forget about u.
not sure if they have fixed the "queue as a group" for pvp yet, but when its working gonna have to have 2 full groups queue at same time over and over again until they face each other in order to guarantee the sucess of the tests.
until then it will just be a speculation.
@all of u guys reading this post and those of u actually posting about this subject--dont forget about this subject when it becomes possible to test it. at that point in time, go test it and post results. the more tests that are done, the more clear the mechanics become. and when its figured out, every1 will benefit from it
@modimor the armor pen from con is a pvp stat, it doesnt grant armor pen, it makes enemy armor pen less effective, as indicated by the "-" if front of #, and as in pve no mobs have armor pen, it means it is a pvp only stat
just thought it needs to be posted correctly so the theorycrafting doesnt get skewed
I oringally posited this a few pages back but have no way of actually testing it. Do you have any sources or testing data that I, or we, can look at?
Thanks for this, Trickshaw. This is great stuff; especially for us math-haters. LOL
Would you guys recommend an AP stat priority for leveling GWF's as well? And, if you were a min/max type, what race would you guys recommend now in light of this discovery: Halfling or Drow maybe?
Also, what effect do you guys think this might have on end-game GF's in Stalwart or Timeless armor? Should they be gearing differently now?
If I could redo my race I'd pick Half-Orc for +2STR/DEX and +5 crit severity.
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dasherrazMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 2Arc User
edited May 2013
Hey Guys,
Absolutely fascinating post. Love the math nerds. Do you see this discovery giving a boost to Destroyer builds with the Disciple of War talent (grants 25% of your recovery as ArP)? I just started equipping all the ArP gear that has been dropping as I am leveling and have noticed a significant increase in damage output.
Awesome research. I've long suspected that most of the DnD attributes were nearly worthless compared with all the non-DnD/CO/STO/generic-Cryptic combat attributes.
I've been pushing Cha over Int on my CW mainly because it affects four of Cryptics attributes compared to Int which only affects two if I recall.
so is Armor Pen > Power relevant for GFs as well, or only for GWFs?
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destroxoxoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Ok from a very geared GWF perspective I can see that Power seems quite pointless to us from your other thread.
I rolled Max STR and as much Dex I could get, Con I see is quite useless outside of PVE for tanking.
I can see that ARP dominates Power and crit in damage, but with regards to GWF in particular, does ARP still triumph over Recovery?
I have tried to gear towards Recover/Arp/Crit on all of my rings,neck and belt but is it worth Re-Enchanting all my offence slots for Arp instead of recovery.
I have also re-specced from a power build to a more critical oriented and some ARP, Disciple of war is actually a good feat to invest in IMO, Overall lost around 1500 power but I've seen a dramatic increase in Dps! Crit+ARP+Student of the sword is great.
Thanks Trickshaw!
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lazz0Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited May 2013
Actually I tested the Student and it seems to apply 5% arp per stack. Basically at 3 stacks its straight +15% dps. Tested with different level mobs, but not epics.
-edit-
Well not arp but reduces target defense. So if your arp is greater than target's reduction, then you get flat 15%. I not, slightly higher percentually dependin on how high is target's reduction.
So if power is that bad, does this change the benefits of Slam? Would it now be better to take Focused Destroyer over Battle Awareness, since a 12% Damage Bonus seems much better than 25% Power at this point.
I'm new to the game and trying to get a foothold in the maths as I start my GWF, I don't want to pay to respec him or anything like that, some I'm really curious as to how this information affects current builds. It seems like if power is so weak then the feat for slam will be much less useful, making Slam inferior as a whole? Will Cresendo now be better for single targets?
And what about Instigator builds, wherein the entire build is based on stacking enormous power, how will those be affected?
Actually I tested the Student and it seems to apply 5% arp per stack. Basically at 3 stacks its straight +15% dps. Tested with different level mobs, but not epics.
-edit-
Well not arp but reduces target defense. So if your arp is greater than target's reduction, then you get flat 15%. I not, slightly higher percentually dependin on how high is target's reduction.
This exactly.
I was getting the exact same results. 1/3 of the stated value as flat reduction.
Yeah, I'm in the same boat as odidee12, how are you guys achieving 2200 arp? Unless I'm blind, I didn't see any runestones that even help buff your ArP.
@vagdush - So with a dark in 4-6 pieces of your gear, and say plus pvp set...that's still not 2200. Unless you have higher than rank 5 runestones. Is there like a proper set that has the best ArP (besides tier 2)?
Most of the endgame guides that I read suggest 7 or higher, and many involve a cat/stone as well when you reach the end. These things make attaining these numbers very manageable.
quick edit: 185 x4 is 740 on its own, and ArP on jewelry/gear isn't so hard to find. ancient berserker's ring x2 is 308 ArP, with offense slots for another 370.... hitting 2200 isn't so bad. Add in your cat/stone and then you're very in business.
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kwaziMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
With Disciple of war I can hit 2200 with all dark 6s, no companion. Since I do have a companion however I don't have to dedicate rank 6s or all of my slots.
And that ^^^^^, too. I wanted to stay away from feat specs because I love to see new feat set-ups that end up being awesome, but that one is 25% of recovery as ArP if you take that path.
@vagdush - So with a dark in 4-6 pieces of your gear, and say plus pvp set...that's still not 2200. Unless you have higher than rank 5 runestones. Is there like a proper set that has the best ArP (besides tier 2)?
Get an Ion Stone or Cat, the only two companions worth anything atm.
Comments
It is what it is, if it was multiplcative they would have combined to 203.5% which is much too high to be correct.
It's true that CA might be lower and my bonus from Charisma is additive i.e. 5% + 11%....but it doesn't seem likely. Still I'd love to see someone test it with a different Charisma score.
wicked strike
775 hits
16% crit
138.42 average damage
wicked strike (2nd set)
748 hits
15% crit
137.41 average damage
wicked strike: flanking
642 hits
15% crit
155.85 damage average (+12.59% and +13.42% respectively)
Do you have the feat that improves crit severity? I think the fact that crit damage and combat advantage is additive is skewing your results.
If your average damage is 138.42 with 16% crit, then your average non-crit damage is 123.59.
Reverse engineering your results to remove crit damage gives roughly 15%. You have to make an assumption about what the CA damage bonus actually is to get a result though so it's a bit self defeating. If you can remove crit results from your data and check the numbers again that would be awesome. Or send me the combat log and I'll do it.
You can rename the log file to log.csv and use IF and AND statements in excel to filter the log pretty easily.
e.g. have 4 rows with formula like these 4
=IF(AND($B1="P[200066686@5906925 Skree@freehugs9]",$G1="Magic Missile",$I1="Arcane",$J1=""),$K1,"")
=IF(AND($B1="P[200066686@5906925 Skree@freehugs9]",$G1="Magic Missile",$I1="Arcane",$J1="Critical"),"","")
=IF(AND($B1="P[200066686@5906925 Skree@freehugs9]",$G1="Magic Missile",$I1="Arcane",$J1="Flank"),$K1,"")
=IF(AND($B1="P[200066686@5906925 Skree@freehugs9]",$G1="Magic Missile",$I1="Arcane",$J1="Critical|Flank"),$K1,"")
That was suggested already.
Do you have any testing proof? I'd love to believe that was true, and it does sound logical.
Separating out the crits is very easy using act
Wicked strike non crits
Test 1: 124.36 average
Test 2: 123.52 average
Flanking: 141.45 average (+13.74% and +14.51% respectively)
Wicked strike crits:
Test 1: 212.33 average
Test 2: 217.14 average
Flanking: 238.03 average (+12.10% and +9.62% respectively)
not sure if they have fixed the "queue as a group" for pvp yet, but when its working gonna have to have 2 full groups queue at same time over and over again until they face each other in order to guarantee the sucess of the tests.
until then it will just be a speculation.
@all of u guys reading this post and those of u actually posting about this subject--dont forget about this subject when it becomes possible to test it. at that point in time, go test it and post results. the more tests that are done, the more clear the mechanics become. and when its figured out, every1 will benefit from it
now, back to the game
I oringally posited this a few pages back but have no way of actually testing it. Do you have any sources or testing data that I, or we, can look at?
PVP and PVE.
Would you guys recommend an AP stat priority for leveling GWF's as well? And, if you were a min/max type, what race would you guys recommend now in light of this discovery: Halfling or Drow maybe?
Also, what effect do you guys think this might have on end-game GF's in Stalwart or Timeless armor? Should they be gearing differently now?
Thanks again.
Absolutely fascinating post. Love the math nerds. Do you see this discovery giving a boost to Destroyer builds with the Disciple of War talent (grants 25% of your recovery as ArP)? I just started equipping all the ArP gear that has been dropping as I am leveling and have noticed a significant increase in damage output.
Great work though, Trick. Also love the avatar.
It's a PITA, but as long as you can get someone to tell you their ArPen it should be easy to calc.
I've been pushing Cha over Int on my CW mainly because it affects four of Cryptics attributes compared to Int which only affects two if I recall.
I'd love to see you do some CW analysis.
Encounter Matrix | Advanced Foundry Topics
I rolled Max STR and as much Dex I could get, Con I see is quite useless outside of PVE for tanking.
I can see that ARP dominates Power and crit in damage, but with regards to GWF in particular, does ARP still triumph over Recovery?
I have tried to gear towards Recover/Arp/Crit on all of my rings,neck and belt but is it worth Re-Enchanting all my offence slots for Arp instead of recovery.
PS- This is from a Destroyer specced PVE GWF.
Thanks Trickshaw!
-edit-
Well not arp but reduces target defense. So if your arp is greater than target's reduction, then you get flat 15%. I not, slightly higher percentually dependin on how high is target's reduction.
I'm new to the game and trying to get a foothold in the maths as I start my GWF, I don't want to pay to respec him or anything like that, some I'm really curious as to how this information affects current builds. It seems like if power is so weak then the feat for slam will be much less useful, making Slam inferior as a whole? Will Cresendo now be better for single targets?
And what about Instigator builds, wherein the entire build is based on stacking enormous power, how will those be affected?
This exactly.
I was getting the exact same results. 1/3 of the stated value as flat reduction.
Same for plaguefire.
I agree that CON is bugged or not working properly, the tooltip should be changed.
edit
better use dark rune lv 7 or teneberus for offense slot for PVP? iam destroyer
quick edit: 185 x4 is 740 on its own, and ArP on jewelry/gear isn't so hard to find. ancient berserker's ring x2 is 308 ArP, with offense slots for another 370.... hitting 2200 isn't so bad. Add in your cat/stone and then you're very in business.