My reasoning for this spec:
-Dropping Deep Gash because its damage will scale from Power, and if Power is as terrible as described earlier why use moves that scale from it if we're not stacking it.
-Picking up Disciple of War because our T2 dungeon set gives us a lot of recovery without giving any ARP, the proc also gives recovery so we will get ARP from that as well.
-Grabbing Focused Destroyer, my thinking/assumption is that on single target fights (which I know we are not good at) this talent may outscale 7.5% crit chance we would otherwise get from Weapon Master
Please let me know your thoughts, I'm looking to do a whole bunch of ARP stacking and hope to find the best possible build to benefit from it!
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kwaziMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
I think the best feat setup is destroyer + weapon master for everything since keeping student of the sword up at all times should be priority since it boosts your damage + your group damage.
A question, why not relentless battle fury for maximum roar instead of the 5 points in battle awareness? Is battle awareness that good/relentless that bad?
I'm going to hold off until class changes, but I would be doing the following:
5/5 Unstoppable Action
3/3 Disciple of Strength
3/3 Toughness
3/3 Endless Assault
3/3 Armor Specialization
3/3 Weapon Mastery
3/3 Devastating Critical
5/5 Great Weapon Focus
5/5 Deep Gash (damage is damage, hopefully they make it hit more than 1 stack at a time)
5/5 Staying Power
5/5 Disciple of War
5/5 Executioner's Style OR 5/5 Relentless Battle Fury (I have tried playing with Reaping Strike, maybe it's more situational but it seemed clunky to use. I think this feat would be better as just a straight Encounter/At-Will/Daily buff which would fit well in Destroyer)
1/1 Destroyer's Purpose
5/5 Student of the Sword
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derresshMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited May 2013
So as a result of CON not being as helpful to Arpen as originally thought, would it be better to stack STR and DEX and leave CON alone then? Would like to know people's opinions since I was planning on making a GWF soon.
So as a result of CON not being as helpful to Arpen as originally thought, would it be better to stack STR and DEX and leave CON alone then? Would like to know people's opinions since I was planning on making a GWF soon.
I was actually pondering rerolling and making a 1/2ling with str/cha focus and dex tertiary.
I was actually pondering rerolling and making a 1/2ling with str/cha focus and dex tertiary.
What if Combat Advantage damage with Charisma has the same problem? My Wizard has 21 Charisma and his combat advantage damage is between 17% and 13%...not very accurate I know but I'm not seeing a +11% boost in that.
What if Combat Advantage damage with Charisma has the same problem? My Wizard has 21 Charisma and his combat advantage damage is between 17% and 13%...not very accurate I know but I'm not seeing a +11% boost in that.
Well I was testing it earlier this morning with a instigator build and I was definitely seeing an increase. With a level 2 weapon my dmg range for Sure Strike was between 52-55 and with combat advantage I was netting upwards of 65-67 dmg.
Magic Missile with combat advantage
173.054, 169.584, 172.767, 172.224, 171.90725
Average difference 17.7% (21 Charisma).
Later I added a different item and got..
Magic Missile no combat advantage
147.623, 147.278, 148.626, 151.004, 150.469, 152.775, 150.777, 151.832, 158.26, 156.657, 158.472, 156.68, 157.781
Magic Missile with combat advantage
168.449, 170.277, 169.852
Average difference 10.8% (21 Charisma).
My conclusion? That I need to do way more testing....but also that the supposed 11% bonus I'm getting from Charisma is probably not additive to whatever the base combat advantage bonus is.
Magic Missile with combat advantage
173.054, 169.584, 172.767, 172.224, 171.90725
Average difference 17.7% (21 Charisma).
Later I added a different item and got..
Magic Missile no combat advantage
147.623, 147.278, 148.626, 151.004, 150.469, 152.775, 150.777, 151.832, 158.26, 156.657, 158.472, 156.68, 157.781
Magic Missile with combat advantage
168.449, 170.277, 169.852
Average difference 10.8% (21 Charisma).
My conclusion? That I need to do way more testing....but also that the supposed 11% bonus I'm getting from Charisma is probably not additive to whatever the base combat advantage bonus is.
I wish I wasn't working tomorrow; I'd dive right into this.
Lemme know what you come up with if you would please.
it is actually a shame that you had to pay to test all of this it is actually ok to try make a little extra money on an open beta to help game development but it would have been nice to charge only for vanity items such as cool mounts etc... this things are vital for your game sustainability and you restrict yourself from having a bigger volume of players testing them.
This is kinda offtopic but has anyone tested the damage drop-off for using weapon master strike and wicked strike against multiple targets? Also I cant escape the feeling weapon master strike does more damage when tons of mobs are on screen even when wicked strike is traited, could be because wicked has a higher dropoff or it has a max targets cap.
Im terrible at testing these things so if anyone allready knows the info would be nice!
GWF lvl 60.
Completed all content waiting for more.
And class balances.... trololollol.
0
mmartine1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Just wanted to say thank you for all the hard work y'all are doing. My head is exploding in a good way.
This is kinda offtopic but has anyone tested the damage drop-off for using weapon master strike and wicked strike against multiple targets? Also I cant escape the feeling weapon master strike does more damage when tons of mobs are on screen even when wicked strike is traited, could be because wicked has a higher dropoff or it has a max targets cap.
Im terrible at testing these things so if anyone allready knows the info would be nice!
I think I noticed Wicked doing more overall, but I could be wrong.
Even if it's true you're able to sprint cancel to get WMS's off faster anyway.
As a gwf i use lvl 60 pure piercing gear blue gear for pvp instead of purple since i really haven't found a pure piercing purple set (closest thing i can thing of is the heroic set but even that is not pure ap, and since gearscore is useless in pvp since you can enter it regardless of your gs might aswell, sure you miss out on a set bonus like avatar of war but i don't mind going without it.
Add that with lvl 60 blue piercing rings and belt and your good to go. Plus it's really cheap to gear yourself that way, it's practically free (except the rings and belt, they seem to be worth abit on the ah).
As a gwf i use lvl 60 pure piercing gear blue gear for pvp instead of purple since i really haven't found a pure piercing purple set (closest thing i can thing of is the heroic set but even that is not pure ap, and since gearscore is useless in pvp since you can enter it regardless of your gs might aswell, sure you miss out on a set bonus like avatar of war but i don't mind going without it.
Add that with lvl 60 blue piercing rings and belt and your good to go. Plus it's really cheap to gear yourself that way, it's practically free (except the rings and belt, they seem to be worth abit on the ah).
I agree very much with this post.
The itemization in Neverwinter is awful... just... awful. I really wish they would do away with Gearscore. I've parsed numbers that blow epic sets away using blues and greens.
So, basing on your studies, best gear for a GWF is pvp gear and rings/neck/waist from Seals. Those are the only items with ArmPen, which gives at the same time the min GS to join istances.... am I right? That puts out the best dps?
So, basing on your studies, best gear for a GWF is pvp gear and rings/neck/waist from Seals. Those are the only items with ArmPen, which gives at the same time the min GS to join istances.... am I right? That puts out the best dps?
I refuse to post numbers. I believe in min/maxing to a point. Where I draw the line is requiring players to use spread sheets as weapons against others. People should be able to enjoy a game without being required to spec or gear a handful of ways in order to access end game. That kind of micro management is best left to games with a player base that enjoys that kind of game style.
Just looking at the way Cryptic has their itemization set up is clear they did not intend in that level of competitive gaming. Because it's all over the place. It looks like they were intentionally trying to avoid putting certain stats together. So, I guess to answer your question... yes and no. Some set bonuses outweigh their obvious draw backs. Some are all around <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Some goals can only be met by using non-epic gear.
I won't be the one to open that can of worms. I'll let someone else be responsible for bringing about that catastrophe. I will say this...
I wear exactly two purple items in PvP and not because I can't afford/obtain more.
I am wondering if this means stacking DEX > STR is going to be better for min/maxing in stat allocation while leveling... If I am not mistaken doesnt Dex = armor pen? So wouldnt Dex be a more valuable stat then str? for both GF and GWF
You sure Armor pen works like that???? Complely ignore the defensive score flat out???? 20% armour pen against 20% defence = 0 mitigration??? If it is then i'm pretty sure we can expect a big buff to defence or nerf to Armor pen, however you wanna see it. 20% armour pen against 20% defence should be a total increase of 4% dmg. But you might be right and that could explain why people blow up in pvp from just getting targeted. This is pretty darn stupid and i don't see any point in having defence at all, time put all those points into deflect it seems.
You sure Armor pen works like that???? Complely ignore the defensive score flat out???? 20% armour pen against 20% defence = 0 mitigration??? If it is then i'm pretty sure we can expect a big buff to defence or nerf to Armor pen, however you wanna see it. 20% armour pen against 20% defence should be a total increase of 4% dmg. But you might be right and that could explain why people blow up in pvp from just getting targeted. This is pretty darn stupid and i don't see any point in having defence at all, time put all those points into deflect it seems.
This is why I stressed the importance of deflection in PvP. Point for point Defense is WAAAY more valuable but... only for PvE.
Having a flat % increase in dmg for every % of armor pen is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. It's more dmg increase then power or crit gives. This must be bugged or not programmed as intended. This makes plate and mail classes take more dmg then leather and robe classes, and they have alot of avoidance aswell. It explains alot about the game being so unballanced tbh.
Add that with lvl 60 blue piercing rings and belt and your good to go. Plus it's really cheap to gear yourself that way, it's practically free (except the rings and belt, they seem to be worth abit on the ah).
That's because some lvl60 blue rings/belt have better stats that purples.
So the percentages here are at least 1.4% off because you can be sure that crit is giving a 75% damage bonus. Still, accurate enough to draw the following conclusions:
1) My damage bonuses from feats (30%) and stats (16%) are multiplied by my Critical Severity.
2) Combat Advantage is giving me ~16% more damage, and that damage is additive with Critical Severity.
3) My 21 Charisma is either giving me a multiplicative bonus to the base combat damage e.g. 15% x 11% = 16.65% or it's being calculated in some other way that makes it useless, because I'm sure not getting 11% more damage from it.
Been doing som testing myself, and this is how i think the formula actually works.
What i think they use is the abillity score as a base for whatever bonus you get. Lets say your Base armour pen is 15% from Con, then with gear and feats etz you get a bonus of lets say +70% mod of that ressult. (It's not that hard on a GWF) That would bring up your total armour pen to 25,5% armour pen. Combat Advantage as far as i know have no stat that brings it up, just Abillity Score and Feats, So lets say you start of with 16% as you say, and it will be really hard to get much mods on it. Your mentioning a 11% mod on it. That would bring it up to 17,76 total CA.
This is just a theory i have tho. But if it's right then Abillity score is far more important then i first tought. And I havn't found a way to respec it either.
So the percentages here are at least 1.4% off because you can be sure that crit is giving a 75% damage bonus. Still, accurate enough to draw the following conclusions:
1) My damage bonuses from feats (30%) and stats (16%) are multiplied by my Critical Severity.
2) Combat Advantage is giving me ~16% more damage, and that damage is additive with Critical Severity.
3) My 21 Charisma is either giving me a multiplicative bonus to the base combat damage e.g. 15% x 11% = 16.65% or it's being calculated in some other way that makes it useless, because I'm sure not getting 11% more damage from it.
I thought the base CA bonus dmg was 10%?
Also I highly doubt it's additive with crit severity. That just seems really, random.
@modimor the armor pen from con is a pvp stat, it doesnt grant armor pen, it makes enemy armor pen less effective, as indicated by the "-" if front of #, and as in pve no mobs have armor pen, it means it is a pvp only stat
just thought it needs to be posted correctly so the theorycrafting doesnt get skewed
Comments
My reasoning for this spec:
-Dropping Deep Gash because its damage will scale from Power, and if Power is as terrible as described earlier why use moves that scale from it if we're not stacking it.
-Picking up Disciple of War because our T2 dungeon set gives us a lot of recovery without giving any ARP, the proc also gives recovery so we will get ARP from that as well.
-Grabbing Focused Destroyer, my thinking/assumption is that on single target fights (which I know we are not good at) this talent may outscale 7.5% crit chance we would otherwise get from Weapon Master
Please let me know your thoughts, I'm looking to do a whole bunch of ARP stacking and hope to find the best possible build to benefit from it!
A question, why not relentless battle fury for maximum roar instead of the 5 points in battle awareness? Is battle awareness that good/relentless that bad?
5/5 Unstoppable Action
3/3 Disciple of Strength
3/3 Toughness
3/3 Endless Assault
3/3 Armor Specialization
3/3 Weapon Mastery
3/3 Devastating Critical
5/5 Great Weapon Focus
5/5 Deep Gash (damage is damage, hopefully they make it hit more than 1 stack at a time)
5/5 Staying Power
5/5 Disciple of War
5/5 Executioner's Style OR 5/5 Relentless Battle Fury (I have tried playing with Reaping Strike, maybe it's more situational but it seemed clunky to use. I think this feat would be better as just a straight Encounter/At-Will/Daily buff which would fit well in Destroyer)
1/1 Destroyer's Purpose
5/5 Student of the Sword
I was actually pondering rerolling and making a 1/2ling with str/cha focus and dex tertiary.
What if Combat Advantage damage with Charisma has the same problem? My Wizard has 21 Charisma and his combat advantage damage is between 17% and 13%...not very accurate I know but I'm not seeing a +11% boost in that.
Well I was testing it earlier this morning with a instigator build and I was definitely seeing an increase. With a level 2 weapon my dmg range for Sure Strike was between 52-55 and with combat advantage I was netting upwards of 65-67 dmg.
Magic Missile no combat advantage
145.468, 144.754, 145.389, 143.768, 143.767, 145.459, 144.182, 145.71, 144.905, 145.779, 147.525, 147.329, 150.797, 149.384
Magic Missile with combat advantage
173.054, 169.584, 172.767, 172.224, 171.90725
Average difference 17.7% (21 Charisma).
Later I added a different item and got..
Magic Missile no combat advantage
147.623, 147.278, 148.626, 151.004, 150.469, 152.775, 150.777, 151.832, 158.26, 156.657, 158.472, 156.68, 157.781
Magic Missile with combat advantage
168.449, 170.277, 169.852
Average difference 10.8% (21 Charisma).
My conclusion? That I need to do way more testing....but also that the supposed 11% bonus I'm getting from Charisma is probably not additive to whatever the base combat advantage bonus is.
I wish I wasn't working tomorrow; I'd dive right into this.
Lemme know what you come up with if you would please.
Do it, join us.
>=]
Im terrible at testing these things so if anyone allready knows the info would be nice!
Completed all content waiting for more.
And class balances.... trololollol.
I think I noticed Wicked doing more overall, but I could be wrong.
Even if it's true you're able to sprint cancel to get WMS's off faster anyway.
Add that with lvl 60 blue piercing rings and belt and your good to go. Plus it's really cheap to gear yourself that way, it's practically free (except the rings and belt, they seem to be worth abit on the ah).
I agree very much with this post.
The itemization in Neverwinter is awful... just... awful. I really wish they would do away with Gearscore. I've parsed numbers that blow epic sets away using blues and greens.
I refuse to post numbers. I believe in min/maxing to a point. Where I draw the line is requiring players to use spread sheets as weapons against others. People should be able to enjoy a game without being required to spec or gear a handful of ways in order to access end game. That kind of micro management is best left to games with a player base that enjoys that kind of game style.
Just looking at the way Cryptic has their itemization set up is clear they did not intend in that level of competitive gaming. Because it's all over the place. It looks like they were intentionally trying to avoid putting certain stats together. So, I guess to answer your question... yes and no. Some set bonuses outweigh their obvious draw backs. Some are all around <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Some goals can only be met by using non-epic gear.
I won't be the one to open that can of worms. I'll let someone else be responsible for bringing about that catastrophe. I will say this...
I wear exactly two purple items in PvP and not because I can't afford/obtain more.
This is why I stressed the importance of deflection in PvP. Point for point Defense is WAAAY more valuable but... only for PvE.
That's because some lvl60 blue rings/belt have better stats that purples.
Here it is!
Level 60 Control Wizard, Magic Missile, level 9 Target Dummy and a rock on my mouse =
1290 regular hits averaging 510.08 damage.
510 Critical hits averaging 901.87 damage (+76.4%).
355 Flanking hits averaging 586.96 damage (+15.1%).
429 Critical and Flanking hits averaging 979.89 damage (+92.1% or +75%+17.1%)
So the percentages here are at least 1.4% off because you can be sure that crit is giving a 75% damage bonus. Still, accurate enough to draw the following conclusions:
1) My damage bonuses from feats (30%) and stats (16%) are multiplied by my Critical Severity.
2) Combat Advantage is giving me ~16% more damage, and that damage is additive with Critical Severity.
3) My 21 Charisma is either giving me a multiplicative bonus to the base combat damage e.g. 15% x 11% = 16.65% or it's being calculated in some other way that makes it useless, because I'm sure not getting 11% more damage from it.
What i think they use is the abillity score as a base for whatever bonus you get. Lets say your Base armour pen is 15% from Con, then with gear and feats etz you get a bonus of lets say +70% mod of that ressult. (It's not that hard on a GWF) That would bring up your total armour pen to 25,5% armour pen. Combat Advantage as far as i know have no stat that brings it up, just Abillity Score and Feats, So lets say you start of with 16% as you say, and it will be really hard to get much mods on it. Your mentioning a 11% mod on it. That would bring it up to 17,76 total CA.
This is just a theory i have tho. But if it's right then Abillity score is far more important then i first tought. And I havn't found a way to respec it either.
I thought the base CA bonus dmg was 10%?
Also I highly doubt it's additive with crit severity. That just seems really, random.
What if the base CA dmg was actually +5%?
just thought it needs to be posted correctly so the theorycrafting doesnt get skewed