You sure Armor pen works like that???? Complely ignore the defensive score flat out???? 20% armour pen against 20% defence = 0 mitigration??? If it is then i'm pretty sure we can expect a big buff to defence or nerf to Armor pen, however you wanna see it. 20% armour pen against 20% defence should be a total increase of 4% dmg. But you might be right and that could explain why people blow up in pvp from just getting targeted. This is pretty darn stupid and i don't see any point in having defence at all, time put all those points into deflect it seems.
I have no clue if armorpen works that way but ... Does people have 20% armour pen? I tend to have like 0.x (where x tend to vary)* and my Guardian have have around 38-39%** mitigation. And she never get blown up in pvp only by geting targeted, unless everyone in the oposite team focus on her at the same time.
* Sure, I never made armour pen my primary stat but anyways. It would be kinda wierd if one could get 20% even if one max it.
** I probably could have a bit higer if only Shield Defense worked as it should.
So, as a TR player, my big question is whether or not this statement holds true for TRs as well:
"1.) Armor Penetration is the single most important offensive stat modifier you can invest in. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200. It trumps power, by a metric ton, and it trumps crit% unless you're WAAAY past the 50% mark."
I'm very curious about this, as the answer may completely invalidate the reasoning behind my current build. =\
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pridesenvyMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 30Arc User
SotS and Plaguefire alone can't take defense into the negatives can it? I assumed the way it worked was that -def reduction from both would scale defense down by -60%, i.e. 2000 defense --> 800 defense. Which is around 16% + whatever base you have from AC, lets say ~20% total. Then armor pen gets tacked on at the end. With ~2100 Arpen, that gets reduced to -1% damage resist.
It would be pretty disgusting if -60% worked additively against damage resist, since most people barely scratch 30%
perfect plaguefire and SotS together are worth 90% reduction meaning assuming you have 20% arp since that is easy to get we are talking a GF with 50% reduction drops down to -15% reduction now most classes scrap in around 30% that would put them at -17% reduction not to mention i can find a few ways to reduce your defense even more and plenty of ways to gain more arp put that together with a healthy amount of power and hitting players for 15k is easy enough.
perfect plaguefire and SotS together are worth 90% reduction meaning assuming you have 20% arp since that is easy to get we are talking a GF with 50% reduction drops down to -15% reduction now most classes scrap in around 30% that would put them at -17% reduction not to mention i can find a few ways to reduce your defense even more and plenty of ways to gain more arp put that together with a healthy amount of power and hitting players for 15k is easy enough.
You seem inexperienced how Arp and resistance ignored work and especially defense debuffs.
DR is direct substracted by ARP/RI to build a number >= 0 DR. After this all defense debuffs(DR reduce, - x/y% defense) are calculated with their calculation -DR. So a SotS and GPF don't let your target have -% defense. They add -DR to the rest calculation of DR. Then your damage come in. As GF with over 50% DR i don't get into -DR with 35% ARP + GPF.
still this is a necro... and the initial post has nothing to do with what is now.
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sean99999Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2014
I've looked at my parsing results. Plaguefire subtracts directly from the testing dummy's resistance, and brings it into negative territory. I was totally surprised when my parsing results showed i was doing ~20% more damage with normal plaguefire versus a greater vorpal.
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sean99999Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2014
One more thing to mention, my parse logs showed my DPS scaled steadily vs test dummies when i stacked power, but it did not budge an inch when i stacked Armor penetrate. Hence i am unsure about the benefits of stacking it beyond the supposed 24% cap. More testing will be needed.
Guys can anyone tell me Is p.brozewood tooltip correct? Resistance ignored 16% ? Have any one test it or calculate it ? Because was gonna roll a 18,18,12. Dex,str and wis. Don't really care bout crit right now seem after mod 3 gonna have big nerf at it? Was thinking with 18 str at start it will give me a 8% resistance ignored + 16% from p.bronze= 24% resistance ignored..is it good ?
Guys can anyone tell me Is p.brozewood tooltip correct? Resistance ignored 16% ? Have any one test it or calculate it ? Because was gonna roll a 18,18,12. Dex,str and wis. Don't really care bout crit right now seem after mod 3 gonna have big nerf at it? Was thinking with 18 str at start it will give me a 8% resistance ignored + 16% from p.bronze= 24% resistance ignored..is it good ?
Its not resistance ignored , the tooltip says ''..Ignored 16% of the targets Armor '' So if u follow the tooltip bronzewood should ignore 16% of for example 32AC
One more thing to mention, my parse logs showed my DPS scaled steadily vs test dummies when i stacked power, but it did not budge an inch when i stacked Armor penetrate. Hence i am unsure about the benefits of stacking it beyond the supposed 24% cap. More testing will be needed.
I don't think test dummies have any resistance, and armor penetration can't make it negative unlike the PF debuff, so you'll have to test against something else to see what difference armor pen makes.
why is this thread still not locked, trickshaw's finding was correct during his time, but is now outdated and wrong. this causes confusion among people, should not be used anymore
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jmikezMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2014
I know this thread is old. But to just clear the confusion between arpen and power stacking to new players. Heres an exeriment i conducted.
there is a cap for arpen. im sorry to say, but ive tested ARPEN extensively as me and my friends have 12 pieces of Dark 10's to play around with.
Experiment i conducted
I tested it on my GWF, running MC (to test it in mass mobs and single target bosses Fulminorax)
With full dark 10's
1850 base arpen
7 Slots of Dark 10's from offensive slots
3 rank 10 Eldritch from Ioun stone of might
3 Dark 10 from Accesories in Ioun Stone
Arpen totaling to 5750
So my stats for running MC with dark 10's are as follow (i did not run VT 2/2 cuz there is a possibility of a wipe on last boss, and will thus taint my results)
Power: 6000
Arpen: 5750
Crit chance: 40pct
in 20 MC runs with a static group: i was averaging 13mil per run
2nd test: (removed all arpen runes and just hit right around soft cap of 2.2k and stacked radiant/empowered 10's)
My stats for 2nd experiment
Power: 10.8k
Arpen:2.1k
Crit Chance: 40pct
in 20 MC runs with a static group: i was averaging 16.7mil per run
Radiant > Arpen
as a conclusion. Arpen isnt worth it after a certain number... what those numbers are, i have no idea. Im no mathematician. Ppl wud say 24pct, some wud say 22 pct. I have no 100percent way of checking that. But with my tests, i can see that stacking arpen after 2.2k is useless and a waste of money.
Iam a GWF/Cleric player. So i have no idea how arpen works for other clases.
Jeanne -- 21.8k PvP CW
Michael -- 21.1k PvP Sent GWF
morePewPewlessQQ -- 20k Pvp/PvE HR
You are ignoring the fact that your Con score is giving you additional resistance ignored. Even your second test where you had 2.1k Armor Pen was way over the resistance ignored of 24% cap for t2 bosses, resulting in the extra stat being wasted. To get the proper amount of Armor Pen to be a the PVE cap, you need to add the number in the ArmPen tool tip to the one in your CON tooltip. Con gives a number of 1% per point above 10, so if you have a 17 CON, you have 7% RI on top of whatever the actual stat number says. That's just for a GWF. A GF gets resistance ignored from DEX. Other clases use only the number shown in the ArmPen tooltip.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
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jmikezMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
You are ignoring the fact that your Con score is giving you additional resistance ignored. Even your second test where you had 2.1k Armor Pen was way over the resistance ignored of 24% cap for t2 bosses, resulting in the extra stat being wasted. To get the proper amount of Armor Pen to be a the PVE cap, you need to add the number in the ArmPen tool tip to the one in your CON tooltip. Con gives a number of 1% per point above 10, so if you have a 17 CON, you have 7% RI on top of whatever the actual stat number says. That's just for a GWF. A GF gets resistance ignored from DEX. Other clases use only the number shown in the ArmPen tooltip.
iam well aware of the CON which adds more armor pen. What im trying to clarify to the masses is... Power>armor pen
and i only have 14con. CON to me is useless cuz u can hit soft cap easily. so i stacked everything into dex to hit 40pct crit chance with no azure runes
Jeanne -- 21.8k PvP CW
Michael -- 21.1k PvP Sent GWF
morePewPewlessQQ -- 20k Pvp/PvE HR
Its not resistance ignored , the tooltip says ''..Ignored 16% of the targets Armor '' So if u follow the tooltip bronzewood should ignore 16% of for example 32AC
so facecontrol as you stated ? so this mean p.broze is not very good actually ? so if p.broze VS p.plaguefire VS p . terror VS.P fetouched which will win out
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xxxerexxxMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 9Arc User
edited February 2014
The tooltip is misleading. It's a debuff/mitigation style enchant that will let you go into negative. Get one on the preview server and try it out for yourself with ACT
Comments
I have no clue if armorpen works that way but ... Does people have 20% armour pen? I tend to have like 0.x (where x tend to vary)* and my Guardian have have around 38-39%** mitigation. And she never get blown up in pvp only by geting targeted, unless everyone in the oposite team focus on her at the same time.
* Sure, I never made armour pen my primary stat but anyways. It would be kinda wierd if one could get 20% even if one max it.
** I probably could have a bit higer if only Shield Defense worked as it should.
"1.) Armor Penetration is the single most important offensive stat modifier you can invest in. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200. It trumps power, by a metric ton, and it trumps crit% unless you're WAAAY past the 50% mark."
I'm very curious about this, as the answer may completely invalidate the reasoning behind my current build. =\
perfect plaguefire and SotS together are worth 90% reduction meaning assuming you have 20% arp since that is easy to get we are talking a GF with 50% reduction drops down to -15% reduction now most classes scrap in around 30% that would put them at -17% reduction not to mention i can find a few ways to reduce your defense even more and plenty of ways to gain more arp put that together with a healthy amount of power and hitting players for 15k is easy enough.
You seem inexperienced how Arp and resistance ignored work and especially defense debuffs.
DR is direct substracted by ARP/RI to build a number >= 0 DR. After this all defense debuffs(DR reduce, - x/y% defense) are calculated with their calculation -DR. So a SotS and GPF don't let your target have -% defense. They add -DR to the rest calculation of DR. Then your damage come in. As GF with over 50% DR i don't get into -DR with 35% ARP + GPF.
Its not resistance ignored , the tooltip says ''..Ignored 16% of the targets Armor '' So if u follow the tooltip bronzewood should ignore 16% of for example 32AC
I don't think test dummies have any resistance, and armor penetration can't make it negative unlike the PF debuff, so you'll have to test against something else to see what difference armor pen makes.
there is a cap for arpen. im sorry to say, but ive tested ARPEN extensively as me and my friends have 12 pieces of Dark 10's to play around with.
Experiment i conducted
I tested it on my GWF, running MC (to test it in mass mobs and single target bosses Fulminorax)
With full dark 10's
1850 base arpen
7 Slots of Dark 10's from offensive slots
3 rank 10 Eldritch from Ioun stone of might
3 Dark 10 from Accesories in Ioun Stone
Arpen totaling to 5750
So my stats for running MC with dark 10's are as follow (i did not run VT 2/2 cuz there is a possibility of a wipe on last boss, and will thus taint my results)
Power: 6000
Arpen: 5750
Crit chance: 40pct
in 20 MC runs with a static group: i was averaging 13mil per run
2nd test: (removed all arpen runes and just hit right around soft cap of 2.2k and stacked radiant/empowered 10's)
My stats for 2nd experiment
Power: 10.8k
Arpen:2.1k
Crit Chance: 40pct
in 20 MC runs with a static group: i was averaging 16.7mil per run
Radiant > Arpen
as a conclusion. Arpen isnt worth it after a certain number... what those numbers are, i have no idea. Im no mathematician. Ppl wud say 24pct, some wud say 22 pct. I have no 100percent way of checking that. But with my tests, i can see that stacking arpen after 2.2k is useless and a waste of money.
Iam a GWF/Cleric player. So i have no idea how arpen works for other clases.
Michael -- 21.1k PvP Sent GWF
morePewPewlessQQ -- 20k Pvp/PvE HR
iam well aware of the CON which adds more armor pen. What im trying to clarify to the masses is... Power>armor pen
and i only have 14con. CON to me is useless cuz u can hit soft cap easily. so i stacked everything into dex to hit 40pct crit chance with no azure runes
Michael -- 21.1k PvP Sent GWF
morePewPewlessQQ -- 20k Pvp/PvE HR
so facecontrol as you stated ? so this mean p.broze is not very good actually ? so if p.broze VS p.plaguefire VS p . terror VS.P fetouched which will win out