GF needs it's taunt to be a mid range 360 AoE instead of limited targets. It is the purpose of the class to get mobs to hate him, and he should be able to do so.
Heal aggro may be borked now, but it should not be removed as much as it should be tweaked. There should be an opposed roll vs the threat the GF/others have on the mobs, and if the above suggestion were implemented, it would help that situation immensely, if the GF was close enough for the AoE taunt to work.
Does the GWF even have a taunt? Seriously, I haven't looked through the skills on the one I'm attempting right now, so I have no idea. If not, it needs one, if so, it needs to be a scaled down version of the one posted for GFs. They are essentially an Off-Tank, and their AoE skills should have threat enhancement, to help keep adds off of DCs. This may already exist, I haven't looked hard at how the builds work yet, and I'm basing this solely on low level work I've done so far.
Reading comprehension is essential in a medium that requires reading for communication.
seriously??? lol the stack is a MUST. clearly you've not run Castle Never, or other T2's and had to deal with tonne of adds. Clearly Aggro is an issue, the fact that clerics are now the ONLY class that needs to fire off a billion pots even in their double stacked astral shield, I would not be making statements like this till you have actually played the cleric. You will be broke.. spend all gold on pots, burn through 100+ per Dungeon run.
There is ALLOT more to be balanced, the GWF is a class that has no place, low dps, no aggro, no control. sure they can do large numbers at the end of a run, but not enough to pull aggro from a cleric who is doing nothing but dropping Astral Shield and the occasional heals. GF while can do great DPS still can barely take agro from a cleric.. in fact I think if the cleric is going to have so much aggro, f it. make them a tanking class, remove the -40% self heal debuff, let us stand in our Shield and tank..
And if we want to talk PvP balance, forget it. PvP is HAMSTER in game anyway, everyone is afk.. so what's it really matter. DnD is a PvE game anyway. Form parties of adventurers and travel the world on an adventure.. PvP should be the LEAST issue when it comes to balance, cause no matter what is done to balance pvp, EVERYONE will still ***** about balance. they seem to forget PvP requires this thing called skill. Skill Balances PvP.
any way, its my view the cleric is not in need of anything OTHER than the debuff removed. The GWF needs some love so we can bring them back into the parties. I feel bad for them. Anway, I've played ALL classes, and yes each has some good and bad points. And yes there is an balance issue, but it's not the cleric. Lets really look deep into this issue and do it once. not over and over again. Go back to basics and remember, DnD is a PVE game. Like it or not... That is what it has always been.
This is not DnD. The people who are DnD fans have a 400 page long thread about this. The pve in this game is even more boring that it is in most games. I am in a guild full of people who play for the PvP. Not for long if they dont give us some pvp gear and fix the level 60 bracket having such a stupid time to kill.
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torquedsoulMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
-Rogues are overpowered, doesn't matter what game, what setting, they're Op no matter what. People just hate stealth I guess.
-Wizards are overpowered, doesn't matter what game, what setting, they're Op no matter what. People just hate being stunned I guess.
-GWF are underpowered, even though they can stick like white on rice and three-shot kill. People just like big swords I guess.
-GF are underpowered.... well.... I don't know so I can't comment.
-DC ... what's the story there... too much agro, too little healing, can tank but not DPS?
So no class is balanced and everybody hates rogues and wizards?
I wonder why you guys are still playing this game.
And yes, I play rogue, so bring on the flames and more knee-jerks...
I dont know if TRs or CWs are OPed but the complaint I am hearing about role confusion. The combination of TR, DC, and CW have marginized the melee fighter classes as a result of overlapping roles/mechanics.
If there is a problem regarding the TR and CW its that they are the only classes that are actually better than other classes at their specialty. And through some bad game mechanics can actually be better at other classes specialties. The TR/DC combo boss tanking is pretty disturbing for someone that likes to play tanks. Its one thing that it is possible to get through a boss fight without a tank ... its another when it makes no sense at all to have a tank or having a tank reduces your chances of success as so many are suggesting. Having a tank in the party should increase your chances in a boss fight ... you know ... because that is their job.
Aside from fixing the aggro problem and the circle business on the DC ...
For CW maybe they should make the repel a daily to limit the use of it and give it a buff. While I have some fun blasting mobs off of cliffs it makes my job a little too easy. I try not to use it when I have GF or GWF in the party as it screws up their game.
And while i haven't played the rogue yet, if the boss mechanic is so bad that the classes with a good dodge can solo the boss just as well as the GF (thus marginalizing the GF) then something needs to be done in terms of nerfing the dodge or improving the boss mechanic to the point where taking hits is pretty much unavoidable. I would prefer they improve the boss mechanic as it would make the game more interesting for everyone. It should take incredible skill to tank a boss with a DPS class. It should be possible but it should not be so easy as to marginalize the tank class.
I have to wonder if the game designers actually intend for some classes to be more difficult to play (underpowered) to allow for a more challenging experience. From what I am hearing its a lot more difficult to be effective as a GWF than a TR.
I have heard some people suggest that classes should be buffed ... not nerfed to fix the current problem. I think that kind of makes for a dull experience. I don't see how making the game less challenging for everyone is a good solution. Unless the game designer goal is to make sure that everyone gets a trophy. Which might be good for business after all.
Blocking generating aggro would be really amazing.
I dont think TR's are that OP, but they sure deal too much damage for their survivability.
Heal aggro needs to be tuned down, im kinda sick of having 100 adds on me every dungeon. And then i have to rely on team mates, which might be HAMSTER sometimes (hurr durr boss only 30% HP lets burst him down imma rogue, '**** cleric dead why even ress him' -> *everyone gets HAMSTER cuz no heals * -> then QQ about cleric).
If on PvP, i would agree.... but for PvE, best to leave it as it is... i don't see any harm to it... it's optional & players decision whether to stack or not. During my run on epic dungeon, when there's 2 cleric in my pt, i tend to swap out my own AS with dps skill & only stack it when they're closing onto the verge of death...
Sometimes, even with 2 stacking AS have to consume pots (especially during the time one being swarmed with adds + red aoe). There are times where I seldom use AS when my pt members turned Rambo fighting outside of AS.
-40% self heal cases, either remove it from PvE (just let it stay on PvP) or fix the aggro threat. I however prefer the aggro fixing rather than removing the -40%
Lastly for DC's dps skills, it's pretty much fine the way it is now. I personally don't see any OP damage from it.
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blapples86Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Right now I am just hoping that too big of changes aren't made for the most part. There may be some areas that need major adjustment, but I really don't want to see so much "balancing" that this game turns into every other mmorpg with slightly different combat. I like the chaos of combat as it is mostly. It makes fights far more interesting than simplistic easily repeatable strategies with easy positioning and button mashing and few if any unique decisions to be made based on the situation developing. Most of said chaos seems to come from the adds and their strength.
For clerics complaining about using too many potions. Maybe you need to find a team or adapt your team to helping you more instead of burning the boss as much. The boss will die slower, but the strategy will be more sustainable over more runs without them costing clerics an arm and a leg (side note: obviously I can't tell if that is going on in your particular circumstances, but it seems to me like a reasonable guess based on what I've seen in most groups I've played in). That being said, clerics seem like they could use a bit less threat to make it more manageable for non-gf's who are more available to help them during fights by pulling a chunk of the adds off them.
Also, as a GF, I find GF aggro to be just fine. I have no trouble holding aggro or pulling off anyone (including clerics) especially if the team is playing well. I think a lot of group problems still aren't with the game so much as with players not playing the game well for what it is. The only times I lose aggro on big bosses is when I need to reposition them (or they jump around themselves and seem to drop aggro or at least ignore it for too long) and rogues just blast away in their tunnel vision on the boss. From what I can tell this is due to rogues (though not exclusively rogues, I just have more experience personally with rogues playing this way than other classes so far) mistaking the word action as it describes this game for the idea of constant actions. Just because you can hack and slash endlessly on a boss, doesn't necessarily mean you should. You can still be a human being that can recognize situations and adapt to them as necessary to say for example stop dps for a few moments while a boss moves. And actually you still can continue to hack and slash, just do it on an add for 10 seconds and come back to the boss after he is repositioned. Idk what is up with people just wanting to get through everything quick. Get all your farming done as fast as you can, and then what? Just be done because there is no more content yet? Personally I prefer fights relatively like what are in game now because they are interesting experiences that are more fun than fights in most if not all of the many mmorpgs I have played. I would much prefer if the game is challenging and more for the adventure than the end result of having fully BiS gear pretty quickly just by spending the time rolling through pretty easy rinse and repeat content. Perhaps this is just me applying my desires to the game rather than seeing it for what it is meant to be, but quite frankly I find it hard to tell which way is intended more based on where things stand currently.
Still, I can feel people somewhat on the threat issues with clerics. Their threat mechanics at present make off-tanking for anyone but another DC or GF nearly impossible, and that could for sure use changing. I would imagine either a big cleric threat reduction or a minor cleric threat reduction and minor to moderate increased threat for GWF at least if not CW's as well (I realize CW's don't want to have a lot on them since they are kinda squishy, but one or two things hitting them instead of a cleric shouldn't be too crazy with a cleric buffing and healing them, and that is one or two less things adding to the smashing of the cleric). Rogues are the only class I wouldn't even consider too much for a threat increase to them. It could likely make tanks keeping aggro ridiculous unless tanks get an equally significant threat increase to match what they have now relative to rogues.
I think re-balancing threat would solve a lot of general pve balance issues and should be done before much other balancing. My main reasoning behind this is thinking on the cleric AS stacking. It is definitely OP in pvp and pve, but it isn't viable to nerf it until other strategies, like plausible off-tanking of adds as an example, are possible.
Another little point. I think some of the bosses could still use some more damage to make tanky tanks more useful to endgame groups. I don't really think it needs to be so much so that tanky tanks are strictly necessary, but it should be enough that not having one is a noticeable detriment to the groups survivability. Basically, people playing without a pretty tanky tank should have very challenging fights when it comes to occupying the boss without deaths.
Anyway, those are my thoughts based on my experiences and readings so far. Some are probably misguided here and there because I am working on partial information given I can't experience everything that everyone else is experiencing. However, hopefully some of the input is still useful moving forward with the games development or at least gives some people some limited view of my experiences and points of view that they can apply and adapt to their own.
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torquedsoulMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
From what I am reading ... they need a role in general. If the other classes can do damage plus other cool stuff, a class that just does damage is not going to get any love. What is the function of the GWF in a group?
From what I am reading ... they need a role in general. If the other classes can do damage plus other cool stuff, a class that just does damage is not going to get any love. What is the function of the GWF in a group?
GWF should be a striker type with less DPS single target than a rogue but higher AoE. It can be an off-tank but specifically for trashes not for bosses.
The problem is that GF, which is a tank as primary role, CW, which should be a control first role, do more DPS than GWF making it useless in parties.
I've got a 20 dollar bill that says everyone *****ing about balancing plays a rogue.
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darkpagandeathMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 11Arc User
edited May 2013
TR here Im guessing your talking about shocking execution 1 shotting ... you do realise it does basically no damage on a target with full hp it's a hp based attack? so when I hit you with a 47k one you prob had like less than 8-5k hp it never 1 shots full hp. If you think it does you prob have not realised before it hit you. You could have been hit by something else before it was cast? only bad Tr use it on full hp. Lurkers assault is way more powerful go stealth with that on 90% damage boost if you get from behind or side of target due to combat advantage. I think ppl really need to learn that there is alot of lag in pvp atm I play from Europe on American servers things look really weird sometimes in pvp.
And by nothing you mean being able to lockout other toons abilities? Oh wait by nothing you mean being able to attack like a ranged class towards melee and being at a totally safe distance while you wait for those lockout CDs to recharge and that massive damage CDs too.... shut up.
Don't tell me to shut up. If you can't handle an adult conversation, go troll 4chan or something.
First of all, we do not "attack like a ranged class". We have a ranged ability; one that not only requires us to swap out a high-damage dealing At-Will, but also requires us to be standing still and has a limited number of charges. It is literally only useful at catching enemies who are running away, and isn't going to win any fights for anyone. The off-tank classes have higher constitutions, defense, and armor classes; we have a ranged attack. It's completely balanced. As far as stuns go, every class has at least one, so I don't really see what your point is?At least you can still move when we pop ours. Whenever I get force-choked by a CW, I just let go of my mouse and prepare to respawn because there's nothing to be done. In conclusion having a limited ranged ability does not make us Ranged DPS and having a second-tier stun does not make us a control class. They are simply there to off-set low survivability and make it so that we can utilize our one purpose which is single-target DPS.
A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
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torquedsoulMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
GWF should be a striker type with less DPS single target than a rogue but higher AoE. It can be an off-tank but specifically for trashes not for bosses.
The problem is that GF, which is a tank as primary role, CW, which should be a control first role, do more DPS than GWF making it useless in parties.
I think they tried to accommodate soloing for the less DPS classes and in the process created a problem for the GWF. I think trash mob aggro would be good for the GWF. he could bunch them up so CW AoEs are more effective. If the buff GWF threat towards mobs and GF threat towards bosses it might shake itself out.
One way they can maybe nerf CW is pulling some or all of the damage out of its CC skills. The more CC ... the less the damage. That way they can have a solo configuration and a team configuration. The limited number of encounter slots will limit abuse DPS mixed with control.
I think more complain aboout TR then CW becouse TR is "in your face". You actually see the TR all the time whereas the CW, if left alone, is much more powerful then a TR beeing left alone.
Comments
GF needs it's taunt to be a mid range 360 AoE instead of limited targets. It is the purpose of the class to get mobs to hate him, and he should be able to do so.
Heal aggro may be borked now, but it should not be removed as much as it should be tweaked. There should be an opposed roll vs the threat the GF/others have on the mobs, and if the above suggestion were implemented, it would help that situation immensely, if the GF was close enough for the AoE taunt to work.
Does the GWF even have a taunt? Seriously, I haven't looked through the skills on the one I'm attempting right now, so I have no idea. If not, it needs one, if so, it needs to be a scaled down version of the one posted for GFs. They are essentially an Off-Tank, and their AoE skills should have threat enhancement, to help keep adds off of DCs. This may already exist, I haven't looked hard at how the builds work yet, and I'm basing this solely on low level work I've done so far.
This is not DnD. The people who are DnD fans have a 400 page long thread about this. The pve in this game is even more boring that it is in most games. I am in a guild full of people who play for the PvP. Not for long if they dont give us some pvp gear and fix the level 60 bracket having such a stupid time to kill.
I dont know if TRs or CWs are OPed but the complaint I am hearing about role confusion. The combination of TR, DC, and CW have marginized the melee fighter classes as a result of overlapping roles/mechanics.
If there is a problem regarding the TR and CW its that they are the only classes that are actually better than other classes at their specialty. And through some bad game mechanics can actually be better at other classes specialties. The TR/DC combo boss tanking is pretty disturbing for someone that likes to play tanks. Its one thing that it is possible to get through a boss fight without a tank ... its another when it makes no sense at all to have a tank or having a tank reduces your chances of success as so many are suggesting. Having a tank in the party should increase your chances in a boss fight ... you know ... because that is their job.
Aside from fixing the aggro problem and the circle business on the DC ...
For CW maybe they should make the repel a daily to limit the use of it and give it a buff. While I have some fun blasting mobs off of cliffs it makes my job a little too easy. I try not to use it when I have GF or GWF in the party as it screws up their game.
And while i haven't played the rogue yet, if the boss mechanic is so bad that the classes with a good dodge can solo the boss just as well as the GF (thus marginalizing the GF) then something needs to be done in terms of nerfing the dodge or improving the boss mechanic to the point where taking hits is pretty much unavoidable. I would prefer they improve the boss mechanic as it would make the game more interesting for everyone. It should take incredible skill to tank a boss with a DPS class. It should be possible but it should not be so easy as to marginalize the tank class.
I have to wonder if the game designers actually intend for some classes to be more difficult to play (underpowered) to allow for a more challenging experience. From what I am hearing its a lot more difficult to be effective as a GWF than a TR.
I have heard some people suggest that classes should be buffed ... not nerfed to fix the current problem. I think that kind of makes for a dull experience. I don't see how making the game less challenging for everyone is a good solution. Unless the game designer goal is to make sure that everyone gets a trophy. Which might be good for business after all.
Blocking generating aggro would be really amazing.
I dont think TR's are that OP, but they sure deal too much damage for their survivability.
Heal aggro needs to be tuned down, im kinda sick of having 100 adds on me every dungeon. And then i have to rely on team mates, which might be HAMSTER sometimes (hurr durr boss only 30% HP lets burst him down imma rogue, '**** cleric dead why even ress him' -> *everyone gets HAMSTER cuz no heals * -> then QQ about cleric).
Sometimes, even with 2 stacking AS have to consume pots (especially during the time one being swarmed with adds + red aoe). There are times where I seldom use AS when my pt members turned Rambo fighting outside of AS.
-40% self heal cases, either remove it from PvE (just let it stay on PvP) or fix the aggro threat. I however prefer the aggro fixing rather than removing the -40%
Lastly for DC's dps skills, it's pretty much fine the way it is now. I personally don't see any OP damage from it.
For clerics complaining about using too many potions. Maybe you need to find a team or adapt your team to helping you more instead of burning the boss as much. The boss will die slower, but the strategy will be more sustainable over more runs without them costing clerics an arm and a leg (side note: obviously I can't tell if that is going on in your particular circumstances, but it seems to me like a reasonable guess based on what I've seen in most groups I've played in). That being said, clerics seem like they could use a bit less threat to make it more manageable for non-gf's who are more available to help them during fights by pulling a chunk of the adds off them.
Also, as a GF, I find GF aggro to be just fine. I have no trouble holding aggro or pulling off anyone (including clerics) especially if the team is playing well. I think a lot of group problems still aren't with the game so much as with players not playing the game well for what it is. The only times I lose aggro on big bosses is when I need to reposition them (or they jump around themselves and seem to drop aggro or at least ignore it for too long) and rogues just blast away in their tunnel vision on the boss. From what I can tell this is due to rogues (though not exclusively rogues, I just have more experience personally with rogues playing this way than other classes so far) mistaking the word action as it describes this game for the idea of constant actions. Just because you can hack and slash endlessly on a boss, doesn't necessarily mean you should. You can still be a human being that can recognize situations and adapt to them as necessary to say for example stop dps for a few moments while a boss moves. And actually you still can continue to hack and slash, just do it on an add for 10 seconds and come back to the boss after he is repositioned. Idk what is up with people just wanting to get through everything quick. Get all your farming done as fast as you can, and then what? Just be done because there is no more content yet? Personally I prefer fights relatively like what are in game now because they are interesting experiences that are more fun than fights in most if not all of the many mmorpgs I have played. I would much prefer if the game is challenging and more for the adventure than the end result of having fully BiS gear pretty quickly just by spending the time rolling through pretty easy rinse and repeat content. Perhaps this is just me applying my desires to the game rather than seeing it for what it is meant to be, but quite frankly I find it hard to tell which way is intended more based on where things stand currently.
Still, I can feel people somewhat on the threat issues with clerics. Their threat mechanics at present make off-tanking for anyone but another DC or GF nearly impossible, and that could for sure use changing. I would imagine either a big cleric threat reduction or a minor cleric threat reduction and minor to moderate increased threat for GWF at least if not CW's as well (I realize CW's don't want to have a lot on them since they are kinda squishy, but one or two things hitting them instead of a cleric shouldn't be too crazy with a cleric buffing and healing them, and that is one or two less things adding to the smashing of the cleric). Rogues are the only class I wouldn't even consider too much for a threat increase to them. It could likely make tanks keeping aggro ridiculous unless tanks get an equally significant threat increase to match what they have now relative to rogues.
I think re-balancing threat would solve a lot of general pve balance issues and should be done before much other balancing. My main reasoning behind this is thinking on the cleric AS stacking. It is definitely OP in pvp and pve, but it isn't viable to nerf it until other strategies, like plausible off-tanking of adds as an example, are possible.
Another little point. I think some of the bosses could still use some more damage to make tanky tanks more useful to endgame groups. I don't really think it needs to be so much so that tanky tanks are strictly necessary, but it should be enough that not having one is a noticeable detriment to the groups survivability. Basically, people playing without a pretty tanky tank should have very challenging fights when it comes to occupying the boss without deaths.
Anyway, those are my thoughts based on my experiences and readings so far. Some are probably misguided here and there because I am working on partial information given I can't experience everything that everyone else is experiencing. However, hopefully some of the input is still useful moving forward with the games development or at least gives some people some limited view of my experiences and points of view that they can apply and adapt to their own.
From what I am reading ... they need a role in general. If the other classes can do damage plus other cool stuff, a class that just does damage is not going to get any love. What is the function of the GWF in a group?
The problem is that GF, which is a tank as primary role, CW, which should be a control first role, do more DPS than GWF making it useless in parties.
Don't tell me to shut up. If you can't handle an adult conversation, go troll 4chan or something.
First of all, we do not "attack like a ranged class". We have a ranged ability; one that not only requires us to swap out a high-damage dealing At-Will, but also requires us to be standing still and has a limited number of charges. It is literally only useful at catching enemies who are running away, and isn't going to win any fights for anyone. The off-tank classes have higher constitutions, defense, and armor classes; we have a ranged attack. It's completely balanced. As far as stuns go, every class has at least one, so I don't really see what your point is?At least you can still move when we pop ours. Whenever I get force-choked by a CW, I just let go of my mouse and prepare to respawn because there's nothing to be done. In conclusion having a limited ranged ability does not make us Ranged DPS and having a second-tier stun does not make us a control class. They are simply there to off-set low survivability and make it so that we can utilize our one purpose which is single-target DPS.
I think they tried to accommodate soloing for the less DPS classes and in the process created a problem for the GWF. I think trash mob aggro would be good for the GWF. he could bunch them up so CW AoEs are more effective. If the buff GWF threat towards mobs and GF threat towards bosses it might shake itself out.
One way they can maybe nerf CW is pulling some or all of the damage out of its CC skills. The more CC ... the less the damage. That way they can have a solo configuration and a team configuration. The limited number of encounter slots will limit abuse DPS mixed with control.